concerned
Years ago

Jnr Div 1 Umpires - Shortage?

Are we short on umpires for Div 1 Junior Games? Is the parent really required to umpire the game their child is playing in at this level?

Topic #10861 | Report this topic


123abc  
Years ago

I can see that you are concerned enough to post it three times but obviously not enough to type a title.

Reply #125910 | Report this post


concerned  
Years ago

Sorry, new to this, didn't mean to post three times. still concerned!
Thanks

Reply #125912 | Report this post


Kobe24  
Years ago

Concerned...Was this a one off event for a parent to be asked to ref? If not, I believe it is a serious issue! A severe lack of professionalism by Basketball SA.

Reply #125914 | Report this post


concerned  
Years ago

No not a one off event. I think umpires should not be allowed to umpire a game in which family members are playing in. Especially in Division one.

Reply #125917 | Report this post


whistle blower  
Years ago

obviously everybody is at the ABl / ABA tonight

Reply #125918 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

What age group - did the parent do a good job or not?

Reply #125919 | Report this post


i was watching this particular game and thought the umpire showed no bias towards their own child

Reply #125922 | Report this post


whistle blower  
Years ago

the refs we saw did not seem to be too short - all looked around 175 - 180 cm

ref shortage?

Reply #125933 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

refs are bad now.....not sure what will be worse when parents ref their child or refs now....

Reply #125937 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

i was thinking along the same lines as whistle blower..except the opposite end of the spectrum. There is a shortage of refs...but the shortage is reffering to height and this is because they are 12 year olds or 13 year olds and their umpiriing older u/16 and u/18 boys games. Im all for the green shirt policy but a 12/13 year old umpiring an u18 mens game for instance is unfair for both parties involved. Lets get the older refs doin the higher age groups, as MOST are capable

Reply #125959 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

(#125959)It really depends on the ref. I have a 13 y.o child who has refed u20's div 3 and has done it well & with confidence a number of times.

Dont judge the refs on their age or hieght; judge them on the job they do, good or bad. Some refs are way ahead of others despite their age. This may have something to do with the number of years and level that these young refs have played.

Reply #125962 | Report this post


Harvard 1500  
Years ago

For what its worth Marion is so overloaded with refs that they can afford to run three in an U20/1 game. Im sure that they'd be willing to share, should anyone ask in their nicest "pretty please" voice.

Reply #125967 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

oh yes, please share them around!

Reply #125968 | Report this post


anonymous  
Years ago

there is no shortage of junior refs but the stadiums arnt doing enough to find them and bring them out, i know some one who has been asked to ref under 12 div 1 games before his 16 games.the stadiums are really just not giving younger refs a chance at quality games.

Reply #125975 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Have to disagree 975, at the stadium my child refs at the opportunities are given to the younger refs who have shown the willingness to commit to mini-ball and do what is asked of them being Thurs and Sat juniors and therefore the time comes and they do 12 and 14 Div 1 games, and 18 lower grades. The UIC is proactive and is progressing refs well and also bringing in experience to help them as mentors. Some of the younger ones are grasping their chances and will do well in the future. THere is still such a high turnover rate as many kids just quit after constantly being abused by parents who dont know better and many coaches who should know better!

Reply #125981 | Report this post


yogee  
Years ago

Perhaps if the abuse and mindless criticism from armchair critics on forums like this stopped, we could attract more refs.

Who wants to be a ref for the low money they get, and the high abuse levels?

Reply #125986 | Report this post


booga  
Years ago

yogee when did u last umpire a game?

Reply #125989 | Report this post


Daddyo  
Years ago

#125981, it does depend on the UIC. We are fortunate in having a Saturday morning UIC that is supportive, selecting appropriate games for the age and ability of the referee. This UIC is committed to bringing on young refs and helping them to advance, but according to their ability. He also floats around the stadium during games, rather than hiding away, which seems to defuse issues before they arise. Coaches gain confidence in the system if they see the UIC talking to young refs.

There are a lot of young refs at this stadium that generally find it a positive experience. For a 13/14 year old, the money is quite good as they have limited employment opportunities. Oh, we also rarely have a game with only one ref.

Reply #125996 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

yogee,

Why is it that players can get yelled at and not quit?

Perhaps if the UIC's were doing some coaching of the ref's there wouldn't be as much complaining!

Reply #125999 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

high 5 those refs who bag players when they stuff up a shot.... how do you like them apples

Reply #126049 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Players are conducting an open skill. While umpires are conducting a closed skill.

How would umpires go if somebody was defending them when they were trying to make calls?

How do you like that shoe in your mouth?

Reply #126054 | Report this post


FM  
Years ago

When we bag the refs or Basketball SA for not providing enough, you have to ask who are the refs?? Just because you referee 3 games a week, doesn't make it your responsability to turn up to do every single game.

The more people from within the basketball community that start refereeing, the better the competition amongst referees, and you guessed it, the better the quality.

Marion probably has a few extras because looking after its referees has always been part of the stadiums culture (and the Marion Hotel).

Reply #126073 | Report this post


Neptuneboy  
Years ago

(#125962), is that you Karen?

Reply #126117 | Report this post


yogee  
Years ago

Booga - about 3 years ago actually.

Had to give it away because my knees were stuffed, but reffed for about 5 years before that.

Reply #126123 | Report this post


booga  
Years ago

good stuff at least your not an arm chair critic then!

Reply #126141 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Perhaps we should also adopt less political correctness by not making refs demi gods and untouchable.
Green shirts aside bad calls deserve the whistles and shouts from the stands and its double standards to yell abuse/suggestions and well intentioned advice at the refs at sixers/lightning games in front of all and sundry and be expected to watch Div 1 games won and lost by substandard reffing and not vocalise your discontent.
Is district div 1 the elite level? If it is what the hell are 13 year olds doing reffing U16/18/20 games?
IMO basketball players are treated aggressively by coaches, yelled at, put down and generally ticked off when they undeperform so why the hell are we so precious about the umpires that we tolerate this zero tolerance to criticism?
Good umpiring deserves credit and poor umpiring deserves criticism. Pointing out your perceptions of the standard of refs is a fair cop especially as umps get paid and the junior players dont!
By not being able to say boo to the zebras, a lot of umps have developed attitudes way beyond their ability to perform and silence further protects their incompetence. If there are not enough then let the players umpire the game, it is not ideal but 12 and 13 year old kids controlling district div 1 teams at 16/18/ 20, could they be any worse?

Reply #126170 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Reffs are not Gods. This business of telling people they will be evicted for yelling travel to senior reffs is crap. I pay my money to watch my children play and feel victimised by reffs who think they are God. I do not question all calls or even some really bad ones, but when something happens that gets under my skin I have the right to express that in a non abusive way. Get off the grass reffs and use common sense.

Reply #126203 | Report this post


FM  
Years ago

#170 & #203. Great attitude. Normally the best referees available at that time on the night get the best games, unless they are training less experienced referees at that time.

If that means they are 13, well good on them. You pay money to watch your sons or daughters play. No where has it ever said, free entry if you are silent, $2 if you want to abuse the only person on the court brave enough to have a go.



Reply #126204 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

FM get your facts right. Firstly no one said anything about abusing reffs. If you see a travel and call out travel is that abuse? I think not. Secondly in my post I said a senior reff not a thirteen year old. Sounds like you are a reff trying to justify your ego power trip. Thirdly it costs $3 for a spectator. Shows you don't pay to get in. No one goes to the game to question all calls made by a reff but if you say something that is non abusive as one word " Travel" what gives the demigods the right to threaten you with eviction. I am sure we all like to be right all the time but none of us are so expect people to question some decisions in a non-threatening manner and as I said get off the grass.

Reply #126206 | Report this post


FM  
Years ago

"Green shirts aside bad calls deserve the whistles and shouts from the stands"
"If you see a travel and CALL OUT travel is that abuse?"

They are not threatening you to get out because you yelled out travel, they are threatening you because its the 15th time you have done it.

Reply #126209 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

FM what are you smoking? You are a reff that is for sure and it is attitude like yours that makes things personal. "they are threatening you because it's the 15th time you have done it" shows how you make your calls. Anticipation. I was told the first time so shows that you do not know but are anticipating. Get real man reffs are not Gods.

Reply #126211 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Anon,

What exactly gives you the right to say anything about the refereeing on any match?

Yes the crowd do it at an NBL or WNBL match but does that make it appropriate?

You mention the frustration of seeing a bad call, well is that any different from the frustration of seeing a player miss an easy lay up? Do you also have the right to yell or offer "well intentioned advice"?

How often do you see a "senior" coach make a mistake by subbing out a player at the wrong time, or running an offence that isn't working? Do you have the right to yell at that coach too?

You are at the match to watch a player play. It's no more approrpiate for you to coach a player from the stands then it is for you to yell at a referee, no matter what your intention is.

Reply #126212 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

You all are missing the point. No one is yelling abuse at a reff (well not me anyway) and the fact that someone calls travel is not directed at any reff in particular. What gives me the right is that I have played, umpired, coached and supported basketball for years. I think we are getting a little precious if we signal out someone from the spectators that has called travel and threaten eviction instead of concentrating on the game and maybe the next time they might get the call right.Coaches and players do not get paid reffs do.

Reply #126217 | Report this post


FM  
Years ago

This post is about a shortage of referees. If you have graced the courts with your presence before maybe its time you do it again.

Reply #126218 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

What about you FM?

Reply #126219 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

People,

You are all missing the point.

It is the UIC's that are not doing their jobs. How often do we see them sitting around doing nothing?

If the UIC's were doing their jobs. Then nobody would feel the need to call out becasue they would see it being dealt with.

Reply #126230 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

anon #126212,

Players are performing an open skill. ie somebody is defending them, or might be get close to defend them.

Coaches are making decisions based on possible future occurances.

Umpires are performing a closed skill. No defence, and after the fact. Much easier and less dependent on outside influences.

An umpire mistake IMO is generally due to a lack of understanding due to a lack of training.

Reply #126254 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Anon #126254,

You've obviously never refereed a game if you think it's an easy job.

Reply #126262 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Not saying it is easy. Just pointing out that it is easier than playing or coaching.

Reply #126271 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Refereeing is as you suggest an 'open skill'.

Referees have to deal with:

  • Finding the gaps and angles (which constanly varies depending on the movement of the ball and all 10 players on the court)
  • Beating a cherry picker up the floor on a fast break
  • Trying to look through and around up to ten players in a confined space to see everything that happens during a playphase

  • to name just a few

    It's not as simple as standing still seeing two players and of course haven't the best possible view and then making a decision; which is what it seems Anon #126254 is trying to suggest.

    Reply #126276 | Report this post


    jnx  
    Years ago

    126254, the subjectivity is what makes umpiring tough. Unfortunately most umpires have very poor communication skills. If they could get an understanding of certain interpretations from player's perspectives (lets remember we are all involved for the players) then they would remove alot of their false understandings.

    The cylinder is always an annoying one. A big guy jumping up to block a shot will be called for a foul by an inexperienced umpire. Whilst a little guy doing the same thing will get a charging foul. How players guard the post is another one that umpires make poor interpretations on. Unless you understand how to play the game then you will find it difficult to interpret these rules.

    Reply #126297 | Report this post


    concerned  
    Years ago

    Regarding junior umpire shortage. My original concern is why is there a qualified adult umpire, umpiring a game which his/her son/daughter is participating in. Why can't they just swap umpires with the umpire on the other court. P.S. Not so much concern just curious, as this happens at both home and away games.

    Reply #126986 | Report this post


    Anonymous  
    Years ago

    Perhaps the refs on the other courts aren't up to the standard of the game in question? Especially if it's the highest level game at that timeslot

    Reply #127073 | Report this post




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