Anonymous
Years ago

Norwood Carnival - Teams to beat in 16's and 18's

Tournament not far away, where is everyone on the teams to beat in the above mentioned age groups both in SA and interstate ?

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Anonymous  
Years ago

16 Boys - West and Sturt

18 Boys - West and Sturt

Reply #127421 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

18 west boys are not in carnival this year

Reply #127423 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

West boys are not entered in 18 boys champ grade, so you might be a little off the mark there. Also they are probably fouth best or so in 18B1 at the moment - they have lost a couple of games already this season, to (I think) North and Norwood.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

#423 - you just beat me to it!

Reply #127425 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Any sturt team.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

16 Boys:
Put the house on a Dandenong v Melbourne Tigers Grand Final.......oh that's right, it won't be, coz Norwood have "arranged" it so that the probability is they'll meet in the semis. Nice scheduling.... So the chances are now that one GF'ist will come from West (most likely - a lock to win their pool), Norwood 2 *cough* - another nice bit of Norwood tweaking, Sturt or Keilor. Either way, Dandenong to win easily. I think West will make the GF.

18 Boys:
The semi's to be Frankston v Sturt, and Melbourne v Sandringham. Frankston and Sandringham in what should be a belter of a final if both are at full strength. North Harbour (NZ) being the dark horse, surely they'd have to be pretty good to come all this way wouldn't they? Why didn't West and North enter? Both would have increased the depth of the competition and certainly been better than Eastern or Sturt2.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Frankston will need to play well all week to get to Sandy in the final, no shoe ins here !!! Sandy suspect early but get better as the week end goes along.

Melbourne - Will Drewy coach the 18's or will someone else do it ?.... Maybe Dad !!!

16's - Melbourne vs Dandy... Could go either way .

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Anonymous  
Years ago

what about the 14's

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Anonymous  
Years ago

A lot of teams would find numbers hard for an easter weekend wouldn't they?

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Anonymous  
Years ago

U-14 Boys It looks like the Sturt Div 1.1 boys have an easier draw than the Surt Div 1.2 boys - go figure - how are these draws done!

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Anonymous  
Years ago

It's quite easy anon - Sturt 1 would be ranked FAR higher than Sturt 2 (who could be ranked near or last), so they get an easier draw. Nice sook though.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Just wanting to know is the draws are randomly done?

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Anonymous  
Years ago

14 girls ?????????

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Dr Damage  
Years ago

Probably Sturt, Bulleen, Melbourne, Forestville in the u/14 girls.
Eltham are up there but depends upon full teams coming over.

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unbiased  
Years ago

What about girls teams , Champs or A grade

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Libertine  
Years ago

Draws aren't done randomly. Every team in every grade was seeded and that is reflected in the draw. I'm sure if you asked someone on Friday to provide info for you they'd be able to.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Libertine - informed response - now that what I like!!

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Every team in every grade was seeded and that is reflected in the draw.

Then, when there are two Norwood teams in the same grade, one can choose which spot they want if they don't like their original draw, hence rendering seeding pointless.... Let's not pretend there is no bias in it Libertine!

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Pegs  
Years ago

#127688 - you must be talking about Sturt. Never heard of Norwood doing it but have heard of Sturt doing it (u/14 girls I believe). However they put their first team into a harder pool to give themselves the hardest competition possible...

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Anonymous  
Years ago

No Pegs, I actually am not talking about Sturt, so don't tell me what I MUST be talking about.
Norwood have done it THIS year.

Reply #127705 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Not that I have a problem with it either. I personally think it's probably pretty smart.
But let's not pretend the draw is this even-steven playing field either.

Reply #127707 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

705 - PM?

Reply #127708 | Report this post


Vader  
Years ago

No its not.

Reply #127714 | Report this post


Pegs  
Years ago

#127705 - You MUST be talking crap. I will await your apology after the weekend... :-)

Reply #127716 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I think it is quite simple. If the club holding the tournament is playing with moving teams around to get the bestdraw for their #1 team then other clubs can protest by not participating the next year. That should at least ensure Norwood complies with the spirit of the seedings

Reply #127737 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Not everything in basketball is about Sturt Pegs.

Reply #127741 | Report this post


sabres r the best  
Years ago

re: Norwood Carnival - Teams to beat in 16's and 1 (#127741)

Not everything in basketball is about Sturt Pegs.

Posted by Anonymous a few hours ago

actually buddy it is

Reply #127769 | Report this post


Libertine  
Years ago

#127688. Have been on the backend of this myself, the explanation is simple. Teams are seeded, obviously the BETTER Norwood team is going to be a HIGHER seed than the 2nd Norwood team, and therfore theoretically have an easier draw.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Is Scotty B doing the Sturt 14's this year ? Also, how do you think they will rate against some of interstate teams ?

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Pegs  
Years ago

Re #127779. Looks to me like it is seeded:

Pool A #1 and #4 Vic
Pool B #1 and #4 SA
Pool C #2 and #3 SA
Pool D #2 and #3 Vic

If Norwood was doing the dodgy then surely it would replace West in Pool B and have a better chance of finishing first in the pool...

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Pegs  
Years ago

Oops - Pool C and D are around the wrong way...

Reply #127793 | Report this post


SB  
Years ago

127790,

No, 18 bottom agers this year. 14's aren't as tall or athletic this year but still have some good players. They were hot and cold at Eltham but still may surprise.

Reply #127795 | Report this post


who cares  
Years ago

I Heard the div 2 norwood team has dropped players to the 2nd team in 18 girls .is this classed as stacking a team

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Anonymous  
Years ago

I hear Norwood should be the team to beat in most grades. And apparentley that will be pretty easy.

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Bradfan  
Years ago

A Vic team - Sandringham - they'll win the U18 Boys Championship grade for sure!Got some class players - have won everything since U12. Numerous state players.

Reply #127819 | Report this post


victorian  
Years ago

Its good to be here again for the last norwood carnival. Here the new one at halway horsham is sure to go ahead next year with only half a dozen invited teams - 2 SA and 4 vic and no norwood.

Bye bye Jenny

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Awesome! Will be good to have another tournament option. Horsham is a good central location too.

Reply #127850 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Norwood girls should win , they have a training run and play no one till the cross overs, lucky aren't they.

Reply #127877 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

In most carnivals , state champs etc Sturt do seem to be lucky with draws/less games, better playing times (opposition teams playing at Southern at 10pm and Port Adelaide 8 am the next morning) but then they have a few heavyweights behind them, not that I'm suggesting its anything other than 'good luck'.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

SB,

Have you had a look at the Vic kid who came over a few weeks ago ?

Your thoughts ?





AM

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Anonymous  
Years ago

anon #127880,

Draws are done accordin got the summer season positions.

And if anybody thinks that Paul Arnott or Colin Thompson would do Sturt any favours they are dreaming.

Often what looks like 'Good Luck' can actually be 'Good Effort'.

Reply #127885 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

For all those that think Pro/Rel shouldn't happen. Sturt U14 Div 2 boys beat Forestville U14 Div 1 boys in a great game today.

Considering Forestville finished 6th after 9 rounds over summer, this clearly shows that some players who are able to compete at Div 1 level are not being allowed too.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

#887
All for it, but in the current climate ur beloved Sturt is one of the main problems by having so many country kids keeping metro kids out of the Div 1 teams and not developing their other thousand teams.
#885
in my dreams the relationship between forestville and sturt is far to cosy and they share many elements including programs. Im sure that the two you mentioned have far more in common than u realise and work hand in hand when it doesnt compromise loyalties to the exclusion of other clubs. Check the draw times not just the draws and then form an opinion on how lucky some clubs are by coincidence.

Reply #127891 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

#891 - u r wrong - there is only 1 country kid in the current Sturt U14 div 1 boys team - so your argument goes out the window about country kids...

Reply #127899 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

#891

1/ Sturt does not see a boundry in relation to giving kids an opportunity to play elite level basketball. I am sure that your club would like those country players to play for them. If your, and all other clubs were willing to turn back all country players, you might have a point. Otherwise you are just full of it.

2/ I will guarentee you this. Paul Arnott is more likely to allow recruitng from Sturt that help them with a draw.

He has created bad blood between the clubs becasue in his prior role as coaching director for Forestville he allowed Forestville coaches to recruit from Sturt when they had an agreement in place against it. While at the same time threatened to pull Forestville out of City South because a Forestville coach offered div 3 wanted to move to Sturt.

Watch out for this years draws. If you want to see Sturt unfreindly draws you will see them.

3/ I have no idea why Colin Thompson would help Sturt? Please enlighten me!

Reply #127900 | Report this post



Can someone let us all from interstate, understand the massive issues with Sturt and everyone else please, aside from them being so successful.

If a kid from the bush wants to play and chooses Sturt above the other teams, is that a bad thing ? If Sturt will genuinley progress his basketball to a higher level than some of the other clubs, then what is the issue ?

Do Sturt have better coaches or just better kids ? If they have better kids, who made them better ?.... The coaches and kids working hard I guess. The only way to tackle the dominance of the Sturt club is to develop kids and work hard at keeping them there, How do you do that ? Keep developing your coaches and players.



Reply #127930 | Report this post


Well said interested spectator. As a junior (10 yrs ago), sturt were always strong and I believe in success builds success. Look at the great college programs in the states. I reckong a lot of the ill feeling towards sturt comes from the fact that 2 of the head ssasi coaches are fom sturt, for a while the sixers resembled a sturt team, with coach, captain and at least three or four other players frm sturt. But iit is up to the rest of us to do something about it. Stop whinging and create a better club!!

Reply #127931 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Interested spectator, Sturt are a great club with excellent coaches and a program second to none.
The issues some have with them is that there is a perception that they value junior premierships above development with several of their junior teams having 4 or 5 country players ( mainly in the girls) and this leaves little opportunity for the development of those metro girls drifting in the two's.
Sturt argue the training they receive puts them on par with the Div 1 players but they don't progress at the rate of the others and miss out on opportunities.
I endorse the policy of clubs playing more than one div 1 team but some clubs block it , shortsightedly looking after their own backyard but until that is adopted metro district players get the sharp end of the stick.
Having so many country girls playing in various teams also means the pool of players available for metro selections for nationals etc is severely reduced and there needs to be a quota of country players allocated to each team but not exceeding 2 per team.
In Adelaide , we also have suburbs of Adelaide zoned country from horse and cart days and both southern and Mt Barker are ridiculous examples of that both being less than 30 minutes away.
Sturt have also been known to poach better than most of us so a natural jealousy has developed and certain people within sturt have access to boarding schools etc than others do not.
Sturt will tell you hard work and planning opposed to the perception of close ties to powerful alies are the reason they rule and some truth must be attributed to that but it does help to have well placed friends.
The banter on here is mostly good natured, often heated but most of us are grudingly proud of their achievements.

Reply #127934 | Report this post


934,

Great that you have taken the time to respond and I see both sides. Am i correct in saying that you cannot have more than 1 club team in Div 1. ? Eg Sturt 1 and 2

Do your State teams have open try outs or are they invited ? The reason I ask is that surley if there is a player in a second team and they are deemed good enough, they would get their opportunities to go against the better players to prove themselves worthy of making a SA team. So Div 1 or 2 wouldn't be an issue.

Good debate so far, Don't know how the Sturt folk will see it .

Cheers

Reply #127937 | Report this post


victorian  
Years ago

Interested spectator, myself being a fellow interstater and having had an involvement and watching SA b'ball from afar, not to mention also visiting regularly - SA basketball is going backwards due quite simply to the head in the sand mentality of the other clubs outside of Sturt, West and maybe forsetville.

Its about time the other clubs in SA strive to get better and reach the standard of particularly sturt rather than try to drag them back to their mediocre levels.

DO YOU REALLY THINK that we good interstate teams would come to this Nwd tournament if sturt were not playing ? NO WAY. We'd rather meet them halfway and play a round robin.

Until you guys get your act together, not only club wise and play the BEST 10-12 teams in div 1 (regardless of club)and thereby improve the actual standard bball in your lovely state, it will stagnate as it has for 10 years. Remember you no longer have the 36ers to fall back on.

Instead of canning the best club in SA by a mile you should ALL be trying to emulate them.

But then again - they say when you come to adelaide you come back not only 30 minutes on the clock but 30 years in time.

Reply #127938 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Victorian, Im glad you have such a strong interest in sturt. You have much in common with them, pride, arrogance and a hat size four times bigger than most. Try getting your point across with logical arguments and you may get better responses.

Reply #127944 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Victorian,
You clearly have little to no understanding. You need to talk to the other clubs you clearly have received half the story.

Reply #127946 | Report this post


booga  
Years ago

i love how a norwood carnival thread turns into sturt bashing. some people need to get a new hobby

Reply #127947 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

booga, at the risk of sounding like one of them, is it any wonder people start on sturt when they bring it upon themselves. I mean some of them have the audacity to make posts like #127457 or #127769.

Really would you not expect people to respond to this?

And to a lesser extent, which may bring a slightly more intelligent conversation, but never the less comments on sturt, post #127887...

Don't just blame sturt bashers blindly, yes it gets old, but so does the arrogance of many of the "sturt" posters, as the fine line between confidence and arrogance is often leaped over.

For the record I was not one of the previous sturt bashers in this thread.

Reply #127951 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Victorian,when you mentioned West as one of the clubs that have got it together, are you talking men, women, junior boys, junior girls, or all.

I admit I don't know much about their men and junior boys programs; however their junior girls program is dead in the water buddy with their current U21 womens team being one of the last strong womens teams to progress through the club.

Reply #127952 | Report this post


booga  
Years ago

anon if u are going to cry about kids posting while school is not on then u need to toughen up

Reply #127955 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

booga which anon are you talking about, my response to you still stands (127951).

What has school got to do with that? I dont see where you are going with that. When did I cry, I just stated some observations I made re sturt bashing in this thread which you pointed out.

Reply #127960 | Report this post


Guys,Hate to mess up a good debate, but can anyone tell me how the 16 boys and in particular the 18 boys ( North harbour ) team looks ? Any good kids, games etc. I know the scores are up but comments on individual performances would appreciated. I heard North Harbour have a big kid who can flat out play, is it the kid that was at 16 Nationals in Canberra in 2005 ?

Reply #127964 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

#952,
Wests U/18 girls are a very good side and deserve some respect. Mavericks U18 girls likewise are solid team.
Some of the the lower ranked clubs have got some talented girls playing but don't have the coaching staff to develop them. Unfortunately the better ones end up leaving because of it and the cycle of strong and weak clubs continue.
Spectator, cant say abut the boys team but Harbours girls are tough underskilled big hearted girls who foul hard and play paul M style- as dirty as you can get away with.

Reply #127969 | Report this post


Ouch !!!!! Take that Mesecke

Reply #127974 | Report this post


hillbilly  
Years ago

Victorian - stop stirring up the locals.

You know how easily you get them to bite. Swallow some pride you little dandenong shit stirrer and let them wallow in their small minded self interest.

Your team will win easily the 16 boys after the way they beat us by 50 this arvo. we aint that great but no SA team will get close.

Semi's should see 16 boys Dandy, Melb, West and Sturt win and then se a SA v Vic GF on monday of some description.

Good to see north and souther and norwood at least competing at this level. To all you other SA clubs that continue to whinge - suck eggs.

If you don't come and play in carnivals like this - you won't improve - don't complain then either. Its about time the new so called BSA gave you clubs a clear kick up the arse.

Reply #127983 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

anon #127969,

Maybe your daughter is better of playing a non-contact sport like netball if you going to be such a sook.

Cowards who attack 14 year olds on public forums really lose all credibility when they complain about other people.

Reply #127990 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

anon #127946,

So what is the real story then?

Reply #127991 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Hillbilly, the easter carnival alone is not what will develop teams and players.

There are plenty of tournaments throughout the yrs such as Eltham. Plus plenty of opportunity to develop players.

Your argument that teams that did not enter easter carnival should be given a kick up the but by BSA just epitomises the small minded, narrow minded, ignorance that exists.

Reply #128005 | Report this post


anon  
Years ago

Easy, norwood under 18 girls will romp it in!!!

And continuesturt bashing, very entertaining to read

Reply #128017 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Norwood 18 girls had the soft draw and played 1 game less so thy should romp it in.

Reply #128025 | Report this post


anon  
Years ago

really it isn't that easy a group.

Knox, hawthorn 1, southern(can cause an upset) and Koonung.

so maybe one team who really isn't all that strong. I still see that Sturt didn't get through!!!!!
Well done

Reply #128039 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Koonung !!!!! Rabbits who stack their teams with kids from Melbourne and Bulleen

What happened to Sandringham 18 boys ? Sasi beat them easily, did Jack Watts and Josh Wilcher play ?

Reply #128043 | Report this post


dear anon 8005. I disagree that one carnival alone will not develop teams and players, come on, the chance to play at least 5 games in a weekend, you cant say that that is not an opportunity to develop your players. To put it in perspective, thats almost 1.5 months of the regular season crammed into 3 days. I put my team in not to win games but to develop and grow as players which they did. Also had a chance to talk to a victorian coach (30 years experience in juniors) and set up a meeting with another sa coach (cant count his years of experience) to discuss basketball philosphies and how to coach and teach juniors. So to say its not worthwhile to enter, especially being in adelaide, phhhht. Also, please explain how this is the "small minded, narrow minded, ignorance that exists."????

Reply #128048 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Boys

16's Dandenong (def Melbourne by 20) vs Sturt (def West by 5)(also a rematch of Under 14 nationals 2 years ago!)

18's Frankston (def SASI by 20) vs Sturt (def North harbour by 10)

Reply #128056 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

So.

Norwood 16 boys div 2 proved they coud beat div 1 team.

Sturt 14 Boys div 2 proved they could beat div 1 team.

Sturt 16 Girls div 2 proved they could beat a div 1 team.

Sturt 16 Boys div went into overtime against a div 1 team.

Sturt 14 girls div 2 lost to the 6th ranked div 1 team by 4 without 2 players.

Do we need more results to prove that pro/rel should happen.

Reply #128057 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

But your assuming that all teams had their full complement of players. I know some of these teams didn't due to other Easter commitments. But yes, some of the better Div 2 teams can compete with some of the Div 1 teams but by being on a par does that mean we should have 2 teams from one club and nil from another if it doesn't make a quantum change in the quality of the teams in Div 1?

Reply #128059 | Report this post


Anon  
Years ago

Wouldn't allowing some of these Div 2 teams to play div 1 make the competition more interesting and incite more competitiveness from the other clubs.

The kids would be developing as they should be, allowing them to play against tougher, harder competition and not thrashing the pants of every other team in Div 2.

The other Div 1 teams would be more competitive as well knowing that they could give these Sturt teams a hiding if they set their minds to it. We will always fall a long way behind in development than Victoria if we continue down this narrow-minded path of only having 1 Div 1 team from each club.

The comments about kids not being in teams because of going away does not hold up as most of these Div 2 teams were competitive in every game they played with the outcome being, that most of these games could have gone either way including to the Vic teams that they played.

If there is a team that is in Div 1 and getting thrashed every week - would it not be better for that team to go to Div 2 and work hard to get back into Div 1? Why should it be handed on a platter?

Reply #128062 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Anon, Clubs should be able to field 2 div 1 teams but certain restrictions would need to apply or the weaker clubs would disappear. No more than 1 Country player per team in a club that has 2 div 1 teams would be a good start. Zoned country areas where district clubs could work specific areas would be another.
Efective, real penalties like automatic loss of all points for clubs who breech the poaching rules.
Rationalization of the district clubs. West and Woodville merged. Sturt and south merged, North and Centrals merged etc etc.
Failing common sense and because at the moment most want to play with sturt , norwood forestville and north some kind of system that ensured the survival of the remaining clubs would need to be established before you allowed multiple div 1 teams for clubs.
As an aside, it was interesting to see interstate refs officiating in games and in particular, sturt girls games who were not intimidated like the local refs and actually called the fouls.
Spectator, yes trials are open and some div 2's etc do attend but it is difficult for talented two's players to make squads given they don't play against the best players each week and this usually shows in the pace of their games. Some players are invited who are not SASI members but are promising players to trials but this is the exception , not the rule.
Sturt bloodlines also dictate that they have an enormous say in all things basketball in SA and this is not always beneficial. But like they say, it's only a perception.

Reply #128069 | Report this post


Anon  
Years ago

There are kids ready to play Div 1 now - not after debate after debate after debate on this topic. It will never happen while people keep coming up with lame excuses and unreasonable restrictions - some you suggest may have merit but what really has it got to do with having 2 teams in a Div 1 comp - your suggestions and concerns really should be separate to this discussion.

I do not see how weaker clubs would disappear - what an absolute load of rubbish - these kids are already at these stonger clubs - it would only improve the other teams - as top of the ladder teams may have been out of their reach to beat, but perhaps not a second Div 1 team. Even if the weaker teams couldn't beat them - what a better competition for the weaker teams, better games, not getting thrashed week in week out. It would improve the comp all round - the stronger clubs Div 2 team may then be a little weaker and not be dominating the Div 2 comp it will filter through the divisions - I think you are just scared of allowing the most sensible thing to happen.

Your comment about merging weak clubs with stronger ones in the words of Rove ...what the... how about the weaker clubs doing some real work on the players and becoming stronger and more competitive - it is just an absolute cop out to merge clubs. No wonder the kids want to play at the BIG 4 - no-one seems to be prepared to do any hard work with them at the Clubs they are in! Just wanting the soft option!

Reply #128078 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Anon, as soon as clubs have the right to more than one div 1 team, clubs like sturt, but not exclusively, would fill 2 or 3in several grades and this would attract even more players away from the weaker clubs so where would it stop?
The weaker clubs would get weaker and even less competitive because some would not be able to fill div 1 teams with div 1 players.
Take the sham of today where wests 16's girls div 1 lost easily to Norwood's two's who are hardly great.
Many clubs don't have a compliment of div 1 players in their teams at present and thats why, especially in the girls teams, competition is almost non existent. If clubs have the right to 2 or more div 1 teams , who would play for the weaker teams?
The crap of get off your ass and work, get better coaches, recruit more is rubbish and suggests that lower ranked clubs don't actively try to recruit and don't run half bad programs. You need the cattle, with a work ethic and basketball brains and more so, numbers but at present within the bottom 4 or 5 clubs in 14's thru 18's girls, not more than 1 or at most two in each team is a legitimate div 1 player in any other top club.
The short sighted view is we'd be better without the lower ranked teams where the top four would play each other each week
but is ultimately the way to destroy basketball, where zoning , redistribution of boundaries for recruiting , rationalization of perhaps 2 clubs would benefit basketball.
District needs to scrap below div 3 and call it social, strengthen district competitions with careful thought to the future and recognise junior basketball needs far more development than its getting now.
If BSA had the best interests of basketball at heart it would introduce policies that evened out the comp which would make it a competition.
Many of the clubs have been losers since their inception and have never know success, rather than take a club stance on this and gloat how great our individual clubs are by comparison surely we should try to strengthen our weakest links so we all improve.
I couldnt care less who wins the junior summer and winter 'championships' but I do care about the indifferent success of our players at nationals and the increasing gap between 'us' and 'them'. SA is obsessed with the, 'not a bad effort syndrome' 3rd, 4th 8th etc.
We need a competition with week in week out hard competition and BSA needs to find a recipe quickly which is designed to make the weaker clubs competitive.

Reply #128104 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

anon #128104,

Yes I do think that clubs don't work hard. When BASA gave clubs money for junior development some clubs spent it on ABA players.

1/ How exactly does Sturts success at U14 to U18 level make their U10 teams so strong each year?

When 90% of players new to clubs don't know anything about what clubs are good or not.

2/ How will restricting the development of a club help the overall development of basketball in SA?

Making the better clubs worse wil only decease the standard of competition. Making the weaker clubs better is surely the only option.

Until your club accept that the philosophies and commitment are what make Sturt succesful, nothing BSA do will make your club competitive.

Reply #128120 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Under 18 Boys grand final, Sturt over Frankston by 1. Without a doubt game of the day, it was like watching an ABL game. Awesome talent on both sides with big play after big play. Sturt just made one more big play than Frankston to get over the line. Great game by both sides. This could be a preview of the Melbourne Classic final although Sandringham and Dandenong may have something to say about that as well.

Reply #128123 | Report this post


Dr Damage  
Years ago

#128120
I will buy into this.

The difference between clubs can be just 2 or 3 players.
Take out the best of the top teams and the competition will be closer.
I noticed a couple of winning teams not subbing this weekend, to maintain the edge or margin.

This says to me that the depth is not what the results would indicate.
The spruicking of some about their programs, can be not so much the program, as the team at the time.
The clubs who teach fundamentals will always stand the test of time, with players differences evening out as cognitive development factors wane with age.

I think Coach education is the biggest issue in Adelaide not the pro/ rel debate.

Reply #128125 | Report this post


MELHOOPS  
Years ago

Who won the U/16 Boys Final?

Reply #128127 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

U/16 Dandenong def Sturt.
U/18 Sturt def Frankston.

Reply #128132 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

128120,
"Yes I do think that clubs don't work hard. When BASA gave clubs money for junior development some clubs spent it on ABA players."

- Are you talking about Ozhoops (or whatever) that was the predecessor to Aussie Hoops - How long ago wsa that????? Its not a club that spent it on ABA teams it was the management of the day. These clubs more than likely have an entirely set of new people running those clubs now. Maybe BSA should have been smarter and said to clubs: we will give you this money but you need to show us how you spent it on juniors. There is a need for BSA to lead and direct not to just be a body that hands out money.

Reply #128135 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

How did the SA boys fair against a strong Dandy group ? I know the scores show a 15 pt. loss but how did the SA Metro boys go against the Dandy bigs ?

Your thoughts on Nationals for the SA boys ? Considering they won in 14's, has the group come on ?

Reply #128136 | Report this post


Sturt missed quite a few shots and were down by 20 soon after half time.
Stayed that way for most of the rest of the game.

Dandy would have had more 'hard ball gets' than Sturt as well.

Reply #128141 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Dandy showed the value of tougher competition on a regular basis, their intensity was at a higher level for longer periods of the game. Sturt matched them for 3 quarters, however the 2nd quarter was where the damage was done. Overall a great result for the Sturt boys.

Reply #128159 | Report this post


Anon  
Years ago

Credit to the sturt boys in the 16's. Down by 20 just after half due to 2nd quarter blowout against press but never gave up.
Being a melb supporter and neutral observer, sturt boys need like us to become less one dimensional against the pressure these dandenong kids put on, particularly at inbound plays plus their trapping skills are sensational.

In fairness the dandy kids have been together since 12's and sturt like us have had kids leave since they won 14 nats 2 years ago. Plus and we cannot unsterstand why they play bottom age kids even though they are good enough - does that mean they have no depth. At home we play our bottom agers like most clubs in div 3 at best div 2 for thier first year in the age group.Surely physical size and strength dictates that.

Reply #128161 | Report this post


Anon  
Years ago

128136

In answer to your question - has the group come on - no doubt.

In fact there are only 3 of the group that remain from when they won under 12 classics bronze medal team.

Compare that to Dandenong (16s)who won yesterday by the way who also won the gold at the same under 12 classics 4 years ago and the sturt boys are not doing to bad.

Worrying thing is though - put the 3 melbourne boys with the 5 dandy kids and the 2 from kilsyth in the vic state team and who knows how much they will win by - awesome team it is gonna be to watch.

Anyway keep flying the local flag sturt - you do the state proud.

Reply #128163 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Look at it another way, put the Sturt, Norwood and West boys together and you have a line up that can certainly challenge the Vics. It might be an old fashioned SA Met - Vic Met final in July!

Reply #128165 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

anon #128135

There may be a totally new management at all clubs since $10K was wasted on ABA teams. Dr Damage, your club actaully used this money for development.

But right now, how many clubs have somebody going into schools and running Aussie Hoops for their clubs? Thats right, it is Sturt.

Tell me why BSA should decrease the level of competition when your club is unwilling to use it's ABA budget to employ a development officer?

Dr Damage,

1/ Are you saying that the best kids should be taken out of the competition in each grade to make it more even?

2/ How would this improve basketball?

3/ Why is it then that 1 clubs seems to have a large proportion of these players throughout all grades?

4/ And, I agree that fundemental development is the key. So why is it the your clubs U16 teams don't play anything but zone for 40 minutes? And that again 1 club has a higher rate of players going onto the next level?

5/ How do you explain the U10 situation?

Reply #128173 | Report this post


Dr Damage  
Years ago

128173

1. No definately not suggesting that we rearrange players. Never.
That would do no good at all.
3. Sturt have great recruiting to top up their base. Good recruiting is a major part of the srength at sturt. I agree that the link into the schools with Aussie hoops is invaluable. There are moves a foot to strenghen our clubs ties in this area.
4.Was it the girls or boys u/16's?
5.I am not sure what you mean by the u/10 situation.

Please make up an alias so I have a reference to you.

Reply #128176 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I agree a good result for the Sturt 16 boys but not certain if it was the result of
Dandy boys more intense competition. Dandy have added to their squad with
the inclusion of M/Tiger big and Sturt lost starting five forward to football.
Also the Dandy press took time off the clock so Sturt but up forced shoots.
I thought Sturt could have used there big boy a little better by getting the ball
inside more than they did.
Sturt 18 boys fantastic result.

Reply #128182 | Report this post


anon128173  
Years ago

1/ So if one club is consistantly producing these players, how do you even out the competition?

3/ Great that you guys are doing something in the area of school clinics and Aussie Hoops. What about the other clubs? Surely telling all clubs that if they don't do the work they might not be in div 1 will make them rearrange their focus in this area? Rather than flying players in from interstate to play ABA like your club did.

4/ Both of your clubs U16 team play exclusively zone against the better teams? How can you claim that your club is doing the right thing by it's players if that is the caase? Why would a player move to your club when this is the situation? (Hence Sturt doesn't need to recruit to top up players, they just let people watch what happens at other clubs) And why should the competition not change to make your coaches accountable?

5/ The U10 situation is that Sturt seem to dominate this age group year in year out. Does this not suggest that they are doing something in this area that other clubs are not?

Promotion/Relagation makes clubs and coaches accountable. If you don't put the resources into juniors you get left behind. If you don't educate your coaches that playing Zone limits your players development, your teams might miss out in the future. If a club produces enough players for 2 teams in div 1, then the competition structure decides who is doing a better job.

Reply #128197 | Report this post


Dr Evil  
Years ago

Norwood Carnival

or

Sturt Invitational

I don't know, who am I........This is causing me sychological pain

Reply #128201 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

PM - here's a solution to your pro-rel problem. Start a new club. Call it Sturt2 and enter div2 teams under that name.

Reply #128205 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

"PM - here's a solution to your pro-rel problem. Start a new club. Call it Sturt2 and enter div2 teams under that name."

Do you mean enter a div 1 team as Sturt already enters second teams in div 2

Reply #128209 | Report this post


Vader  
Years ago

anon #128205,

In 10's - 18's Sturt already have a Sturt 2 team. So your point is?

Reply #128210 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

by starting a new club called Sturt2 or whatever you want to call, you could have your current div 2 teams in div 1.

Reply #128214 | Report this post


Dr Damage  
Years ago

"So if one club is consistantly producing these players, how do you even out the competition?"

You can't and dont need to. The issue is that we need 8 healthy clubs , maybe a little more, in Adelaide.
State teams last year were a decent mix of all clubs, was Sturt over represented?
I am not sure...possibly.
The under 14's down are currently well stashed with Sturt teams, certainly domminant at the u/14 bracket.
The current u/12 sturt girls are not domminanting, just a good team, last years u/12 similar.
Forrestville and North doing well tere as well.
Boys , yes , sturt dominant.

Cant explain why the girls played exclusive zone, not our policy or what we consider ideal, but never the less it could of been appropriate, but I might delve deeper.

I think the use of zone is very important leading into Classics and State Champs though. Tempo changes are a weakness of SA hoops.

The pro/rel debate is over for me . I would like to see some form of it.

The coaching of coaches will take time and clubs that make improvements will need two years for the flow on effects.

We could really do with a much more dynamic coaches assoc to aid the coaches/clubs development IMO.

Reply #128215 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Under tens at sturt is explained easily by the hordes of children they get as a result of the combined forestville and Sturt engineered Hoops program.
Forget what has and is happening and concentrate on what should be.
The district comp is such in name only for 4 or 5 clubs tops.
Can you scrap some Clubs- answer probably not as member clubs are not going to scrap themselves.
So how do woodville, souths, wests,southern centrals and mavericks catch up to the rest. Answer they can't without a set direction from the member clubs as a whole and a 5 to 10 year plan.
Would the district comp improve without so many clubs, I think so in the short term but not in the longer term.
Should clubs have a ceiling on the number of teams they have more than on the division they play. Again I think yes.
Should clubs be able to field 2 or more div 1 teams in each grade, yes and have them graded over summer to see if they rate a winter spot which would justify this useless season.
Forget and forgive the imbecilic club leaders who blew BASA legups and focus on the now because a stronger district comp is the only way to national success which is everyones goal.
How about some of the top coaches coming to the lower ranked clubs and showing us how its done. Maybe a son of glid could work miracles where the ordinary have failed.
Start zones from 2008 and allow players irrespective of where they are from stay with the clubs of choice til then but start thinking of the future. Zone country areas likewise.
Its too simple to say the top clubs have done it right and leave it there as basketball is slipping in popularity at schools and more sporting variety continues to be a threat and add to that the drop off at U18's plus. Basketball does not want to become a sport for the very young and older age groups only and lose its way. We need to play smarter, less and play the better carnivals only or lose even more .
BSA, wheres the direction?

Reply #128216 | Report this post


Dr Damage  
Years ago

Nsw u/14 women current ladder.
The same 4 teams in Div 1 and 2!!


1 Sydney Comets
2 Hills Hornets
3 Sutherland Sharks 4 Norths Bears


The u/14 boys has 3 teams the same in the top 4 in Div 1 and 2.
Any chance this is a universal problem???

Reply #128221 | Report this post


anon128173  
Years ago

Dr Damage

But if clubs aren't willing to devote time and effort into lower level competitions, into Aussie Hoops, into even having a development officer or coach education then how are we going to even out the competition.

Sturt had 24 State Reps last year.

The 16 age groups have both played Zone all game since game 1 of Summer.

Using Zone as a tempo changer is obviously something that is fine. But all game is not good. And exclusively aginat all the good teams is counter productive to development of players for State teams.

Question: What clubs are working on becoming better? Who have a development officer for school clinics and Aussie Hoops? What clubs pay their coaching director more than their ABA Coach?

Until clubs help themsleves BSA can do nothing to even out the competition. We all agree that an even 8 team competition is best for basketball. My opinion is that pro/rel will make clubs who are unwilling to allocate resources, focus on juniors.

Looking at the interstate models, clubs do not disolve from more competition. They grow when they put in the effort.

Reply #128225 | Report this post


Dr Damage  
Years ago

anon128173

I cant disagree with 2 much there!

24 in metro and country i assume?

Thats pretty high.

Like most things in life you can only control what's in front of you.
I certainly dont listen to people belly aching about other clubs.

I just try to do the best with mine.

Reply #128228 | Report this post


Dr Damage  
Years ago

anon128173
Do you see anything in the similar results in NSW with 3-4 clubs dominating?

Reply #128229 | Report this post


anon128173  
Years ago

I would say that in most competitions there would be some clubs who have processes that lead to better results than other clubs in the same competitions.

Reply #128247 | Report this post


Dr Damage  
Years ago

That's politically correct!

Don't forget it's vital to have a great senior program as well.
Many of the juniors that are in transition really feel the club owes them something for the loyalty and for becoming the elite within a club.

This for worth, for an adult, is usually measured with money.

Reply #128255 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Paul, how many of those 24 are metro, and how many are country?

Reply #128256 | Report this post


anon  
Years ago

Did the under 18 girls win as expected and did any of them really stand out?

Reply #128262 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

9 Country and 13 Metro. All considered equal by Sturt.

Reply #128268 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Dr Damage,

Disagree regarding the seniors.

Sturt had not won an ABA title since the 70's, until 2004. In that time they won numerous junior championships.

In fact most club put all their effort and resources into seniors at the expense of juniors.

Reply #128270 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

(#128270) - and you'd know this because you're a member of most clubs?

Reply #128275 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

No, becase most clubs do not employ a junior development officer but are willing to pay ABA players.

Reply #128276 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

What point is appointing a JDO unless its a full time position and how would most clubs fund them?
How many of the clubs employ a JDO full time?

Reply #128294 | Report this post


Dr Damage  
Years ago

I would not use Sturt as a model for Senior programs.

In fact the junior people who blow their own bags should realise a balancing act between seniors and juniors is what a total club is all about.

I would say forestville or Nwd have a good balance over the last 15 years. Maybe even Southern or West in there as well. North on the womens side have had good senior transition as well.

Reply #128323 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Dr I would not agree with much of what you said there. I like most of your posts. Of your current mens top 10 team were infact developed by clubs such as Adelaide (x3), Torrens Valley (x2) and Sturt (x2), Interstate (x2).

Andrew Webber and Dan Thompson are the only 2 legitimate Norwood juniors in the current mens side.

Reply #128333 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Dr Damage, why not? Sturt have the highest percentage of junior representation in their senior teams whilst maintaining competitiveness.

anon #128294

1 clubs does and they are reaping the benefits.

Clubs pend $50K on their senior programs. Take half of that and put it with the profits of the development program and you have a full time coaching diretor/junior development officer.

Reply #128336 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Just for the record to an earlier post....(#128043)

Koonung is a small domestic club based in eastern Melbourne. The suggestion we load our teams with players with Melbourne and Bulleen players is farcical!

We do not have a Melbourne Tigers player in our club. Our juniors have been going to Bulleen for Championship and this is where your confusion may be based.

All but 2 players who played in our 3 teams over Easter have been Koonung players for a long period of time. It was a fantastic for the kids to play with their old school mates and do so well against quality opposition!

Reply #128359 | Report this post


Dr Damage  
Years ago

Sturt currently have a larger number of home grown players, as they tended to have for many years.
Do they retain the right ones ?

The hard part for them is some of their best are better than aba std and so they loose them to the wnbl and Nbl.

To intergrate the seniors and juniors as one is the hardest thing to achieve, without compromising both.
Would it be fair to say Sturt men in 2004 had a few non sturt players that were significant to the win?
The 2006 girls win was pretty good and I agree with Mons about that home grown team!

Reply #128377 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Sandringham 18s were very unlucky, they beat Sturt by 12 points in the first match but dropped one against SASI and missed finals by percentage. They were also without Jack Watts.

Reply #128639 | Report this post


Jenna Tellya  
Years ago

I wouldn't call Sandringham "unlucky" based on one fact alone: they didn't know the points split.

Anytime you go into the final pool game with the potential of a three way tie (however unlikely you may think the possibility is) you should know the split.

The Sandringham coach was shocked to discover they'd been knocked out of the tournament after the loss. 4 seemingly meaningless points towards the end could have been the difference between making it & not, yet he had his starters on the bench in anticipation for the next game.

Obviously knocking off the eventual champs sans their best player is a top effort & Sandringham are a tough bunch who figures to feature prominently come Classics time.

They're also to be commended on their "club support" as demonstrated by their U18's cheering for their U14's in the GF on Monday.

Reply #128641 | Report this post


aa  
Years ago

Dr Damage

What do you all home grown? Does this include the country girls/boys that are recruited? If that is the case then I pity all the players that have shown loyalty to your club.

Reply #128647 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

aa,

Are you suggesting that Angela Marino that has played for Sturt since the age of 10 years old is not home grown becasue she is from the country.

Or is it just that your child is not good enough to make an elite level team that you here to have a cry?

Reply #128650 | Report this post


Dr Damage  
Years ago

Home grown is hard to define.

Eg. Todd Matthews played for sturt for 3/4 years in his early years. u/14 till u/16, say 4 years.
He has played for Norwood for some 6 years and college for another 4.

I would say the development at Norwood and in college is relevant when considering "home gown" status.

He certainly has developed since u/16's so it is fruitless in some ways to say home grown unless the player has never left, that club.
Sturt women are definitely home grown IMO.

Reply #128653 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Dr Damage,

I think that you will find that Todd played 6 - 8 years at Sturt.

But other than that I agree with your sentiment.

Reply #128657 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Dr D, Tod played ALL his juniors at Sturt and moved to Norwood in Under 20's (which is seniors IMO) because of a change of address.

Reply #128659 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Yea and it took Norwood 3-4 yrs of hard poaching to poach that one.

Reply #128663 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Sturt complaining about poaching, now there's a hollow ring and as for home grown crap, sturt have pinched a lot of saplings they now claim to be sturt trees.

Reply #128752 | Report this post


Dr Damage  
Years ago

128663
That's a bit harsh.
Todd took his time and he had a lot of competition(at Sturt) at the time, in the 1 spot!
It was the best fit for him, at that time.

Reply #128773 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

No such thing as home grown anymore it is about counrty grown and how tall are you, your a star even if you have never played before

Reply #128850 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I don't think Todd was "poached" - I believe he left because his family moved out to that side of town? Was a long time ago so I'm not positive, but I'm fairly sure he left Sturt on good terms.

Reply #128858 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Height being important in basketball? Who would've thought...

Reply #128859 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Im sure he left sturt on good terms but he had trained with Norwood during u18s as well. The coach tried for 3 yrs to get him over.

Reply #128862 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

There is this thing that goes along with height and i am pretty sure it's called SKILL.............

Reply #128865 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Considering the results Sturt have and are getting, that they have some idea what they are doing.

But I'm sure that being a parent makes you a qualified assesor of talent. I'm sure that you are not looking through rose coloured glasses. (insert sarcasm here)

Reply #128870 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Who mentioned anything about Sturt, not everthing is about them.......... everyone is quick to assume things ??????????

Reply #128875 | Report this post




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