This is the major problem with ABA at the moment.

Herbert has played his entire life with Geelong, from domestic, to junior rep and now at senior level.

How can the player and club be penalised for this?

It is about time somebody took this to court and through it out like in netball.

How is the club being penalised for this? They can still have two restricted players, they have chosen that one of theirs will be an outstanding player who has played his senior career ONLY with Geelong and is now good enough to be a restricted player. The question is should they be given the right to have three restricted players and give them a distinct unfair advantage over other ABA clubs?

HO

So what you are saying is that clubs should stop their players from becoming good enough to represent their countries. But rather make them good enough to be productive at ABA level, but never good enough to make it too National League level.

How is that good for basketball in Australia?

Hopefuly they challenge it as a restriction of trade!

They should go to a points system like the NBL (but actually enforce it). In this case Herbert wouldn't be high points so there wouldnt be this problem.

no futute, I am saying that the Supercats can still have two restricted players - just like every other team in the ABA - its just one of their restricted players happens to be a guy who has played with them previously and happens not to be an import.

Now where my argument becomes problematic, and I am happy to acknowledge it, is when a club has developed (genuinely developed) three NBL (or WNBL) standard players who all want to play ABA for that club. Then I think it would be tough on the club but in this circumstance its simply not the case.

Geelong can still have two restricted players - just like every other team in the ABA, just they have to make a choice between two imports or one import/one nbl restricted.

HO,

But where is the incentive for them to help Herbert become a NBL player. They just lose him, or are not allowed to have another restricted player therefore they are not as competitve. If they stop him being good enough he can still play for them AND they can have 2 imports/restriced players as well, making them better.

This means that it is a disincentive for clubs to produce restricted local players. Therefore decreasing the level of basketball talent in Aus.

future, understand but very few clubs or Coaches would think that short term. In Geelong's case, developing a player to such a degree is a major plus for them promotionally and in having him returning to play for the ABA season is just seen as loyalty etc.

In Herbert's case, it would be nice to see the Supercats apply their second imports salary to him for the winter to supplement what is probably a poor NBL salary - bet it doesn't happen!

The ABA is a development league. You could argue that having imports itself is wrong in this context!

BTW, the suggestion above that he has played his whole career for the Supercats is incorrect. The Supercats are a one team association in the ABA - he played all of his juniors with GABA if anyone.

HO,

How does not having a championship calibre team help them in marketing? I don't know anybody who is going to give them money becasue they developed Herbert.

I am sure that clubs in the SEABL don't see the SEABL as a development league, and that decreasing their potential income by decrerasing their teams ability is not something they would be happy about.

Sure, Mark Leader, the Geelong coach, is going to be happy that his potential NBL future is weakened because his team isn't as likely to win the SEABL! Winning the SEABL sure didn't help Joyce or Goorjan get an NBL gig. (insert sarcasm here)

And Geelong SEABL and GABA are different bodies, but realistically the same area and group.

I hope that they take it to court on restriction of trade!

again future, I understand your points and they are well made but you are sort of quoting what I have not said. Geelong have won three in a row I think, which is great. But a by-product of that should be, and is, that their better australian talent makes the next level.

I am not saying that winning wouldn't help. But I am saying that Geelong should not be advantaged by having three restricted players - that just creates an unfair playing field at the next level.

I am also pretty sure that as soon as Herbert made the Dragons group Geelong squawked it everywhere and made capital of that - as they should. They are a very good ABA organisation. But you cannot have your cake and eat it too. ABA clubs have different types of success, some win, some develop players, some do both for a period in time - as Geelong sort of have been.

Here's a thought, throw a poll up on a Geelong only website (maybe their local rag) along the lines of:

Is it better for the Supercats to:

a) retain Herbet
b) get a US import

and I bet answer a) gets a lot more votes!

Suggesting the Supercats/GABA are one group is a toxic subject down there! Suggesting the Supercats had a lot to do with any players fundamental development as a junior is like saying the New York Jets developed Ben Graham!

Finally, give me your view (because this is the premise of the discussion) ....do you honestly think its suitable for the ABA to allow Geelong to play three restricted players (one local, two US) when all other clubs are only allowed to have two?

sorry - one more thing...

Its not a restraint of trade in any regard. No one is stopping Herbert playing for the Supercats or playing basketball at market rates. He is free to play his trade as a basketballer in the ABA without restriction for as long as their are teams prepared to pay who do not wish to take imports and there are dozens of them. And the Supercats cannot launch a restraint of trade case as an organisation in this regard. I would suggest that Herbet would get much better money at another ABA club if he were available - I think someone on the ozhoops site described him as potentially one of the hottest free agents going.

HO,

So you are saying that if Geelong produces 3 restricted aussie players that have all played for Geelong all their life. They should not be allowed to all play at Geelong? As this is an unfair advantage.(PS this has happened previously at another club)

So therefore, considering you assume that an import and restricted player are equal. Then yes, I think that they should be able to have 3 players. Or more importantly, that Aussie players should not be classified as restricted.

The restriction of trade does not consider those rules as relevent, and only is for Australian citizens. So if Geelong were to sign 2 imports and then Herbert chose to go to court, he would probably win. The issue is that if somebody does challenge it, the entire thing could fall down, import as well as restricted.

i personally think that the whole aba should change its rules. i think that a nbl player should be able to back to there junior association as unrestricted but cant be paid. if they want money they can go and get a gig a as restricted player

future, (this has been a good discussion)

I actually mentioned that in a previous post (the three aussie player idea) - and acknowledged it was a weakness in the argument - and I made the point that it is not the case here.

The purpose of the two restricted rule is to provide teams with the capacity to bolster their playing stocks while at the same time limiting their capacity to be overly competitive. An import should be an option alongside restricted australian talent, not an addition. One would hope the system works in a way that a guy like Herbet is rewarded in the way an import would be for staying with his previous club. Quite simply given their local talent, and given they recruit smartly, Geelong can be very competitive without a second import!

On the whole, in the ABA, and certainly in the SEABL, restricted NBL players make like for like contributions as imports (ou get good and bad with both). So, an organisation like Bendigo replaces a guy like Redhage with a guy like Mick Hill (may not be the best example but you get my drift). Nathan Herbert is an excellent ABA player, and would be as valued to most teams as an import is - and he will be even better having had a year of NBL playing and significant NBL minutes for a rookie.

#169774 & geelong = inbreds.

There are rules in the ABA about players coming back to their junior club, you have to have played like 200 games to get an exemption.

But...Herbert is not coming back to his junior Association. He is going to the Supercats. If he was going back to his junior assoc he would be playing D1 BigV with GABA.

Any why would you want them not to be paid? becaause opf the massive amounts they earn as a rookie on an NBL squad?

Ho

Your GABA/Supercats analogy with the NT Jets is way off the mark. The S'cats had more to do with Herbert development at senior level than the GABA. Herbert started with the Supercats as a 16yo. Did not play any senior GABA basketball. This is not a gripe at the GABA as they have developed most of the other locals (e.g. Reardon) but to suggest that the Supercats aren't interested in local development is misguided and misinformed.

IN terms of Herbet being unrestricted. The simple fact is if he was on any other roser he would not have played th same amount of NBL minutes as his current year with the Dragon's. The current rule also makes him restricted for 2 years. There is a chance that he won't play NBL next year and still be a restricted ABA player in 2009 - ridiculous.

.... and by the way. Good on Geelong for putting loyalty with locally developed talent ahead of stacking the team just to win another flag.

Nathan Herbert never even played rep ball for Geelong. He was a kid who was a Supercats Ball boy for years then just filled in numbers at pratice when his old man was the assist coach, thats how he developed and became a player... no vjbl or rep did anything. He played juniors for YMCA in gaba domestic and thats it.

The Geelong Supercats are in actual fact are an Association, and have been for years now... how do u think they affoer to pay 2 imports per year...? Our city & state govenment (Board connections) give the 'Geelong Community Basketball Association' A(unknown to public)KA 'Geelong Supercats $40K per year to 'Develop Junior Basketball'. What a load of Crap.

The SEABL Should be a 1 import league anyway.

Lets get one thing straight - The Geelong Supercats do NOTHING for junior development. They take players as they are and thats it.

Herberts situation is a tough one, very tough one and BA will prob go with him.... i mean come on.. he's only playing for the lowly dragons... Go YMCA, Hilly's Back!!!!!!

Z - GYFR,

Calm down lads...- I never said the Supercats were not an association - I would have assumed they are. But to my knowledge they are not affiliated with the state basketball association and therefore not with BA. (which begs the question as to why they are allowed to play ABA) The Supercats probably run junior camps in holidays as a fundraiser - that is not junior development. Herbert's junior association was GABA guys - not the Supercats as the Supercats have no junior competitions or programs as such. So....GYFR you and I are in agreement there. If anyone deserves credit, it sounds like the YMCA (club?) do.

BTW Z - here is what I wrote in the "Jets" statement.

"Suggesting the Supercats had a lot to do with any players fundamental development as a junior is like saying the New York Jets developed Ben Graham!"

(please note the careful use of language - fundamental development as a junior....)

I am not down on the S'Cats, just stating th4e facts - they run a great ABA org as I have said here earlier. And I agree with you Z - if in fact they they have taken Herbet above an import that is fantastic.

And z, at Singapore he would have been a starter all season!

some of you are wrong re herberts development. He has played for Y in both juniors and seniors at GABA, he has played rep for Geelong U 18's, played Vic country, and started with supercats while still a junior. he is extremely loyal to the club and it is nice to see the loyalty returned.

I personally have seen Herbert play for years and think that if his "Daddy" wasnt part of the Supercats Board he wouldn't be part of the Supercats Team.
He is over-rated.
Maybe they should let him walk, who cares really????

so if they take herbert who goes myers or bridgewater?

Herbert appeal against restriction was not successful. Herbert to be offered restricted place, Bridgewater to be dropped.
http://www.supercats.com.au/content/view/421/1/