shadow boxer
Years ago

Are we reffing soft in SA?

just coming back from melb - are we reffing soft or over reffing here?

so much more gets left over there.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

the higher the standard the more they can let go

Reply #189365 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

they operate under instructions to call the soft stuff - straight from the mouth of one of our best refs. we need to let the physicality go a bit more, the body on body hard work near the boards.

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Agreed  
Years ago

I have said that for the past few yrs. Problem is most refs over here on a Friday night dont get exposure to Nationals or Interstate competition. I think it would be great if BSA could subsidise more refs going over so they can see how the game is played outside SA.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

i think things will change with a new head reff in the BSA office and it should be for the best. I think SA's basketball skill level has gone down as the reffing has gone soft, and those who don't ref soft get yelled at by idiot coach's who think basketball is still non contact.

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Fm  
Years ago

Stop screaming out foul all the time and the refs might adjust.

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Big Marty  
Years ago

Problem with most people in SA is that they know the game and are usually better at spotting from the sidelines than the refs are courtside.

There's also that backthought of trying to call fouls too often on the off chance you start calling very light fouls or begin making bad calls. If you actually sit and think about it, trying to work out after a foul is commited whether it is actually worth calling or not is the question. Bit of a high pressure situation each time.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

The biggest difference I found in melbourne was that the umpires will actually talk to you as a coach, and not turn their back and ignore you like a lot of umpires in adelaide will do.

I questioned a call which i knew wasn't there but as it had been called in previous games, i thought i would at least ask, and the umpire asked me why it should've been called. I told the umpire the above, and they looked at me and said, "fair enough, but i'm not calling that". I was put in my place, and we all continued worrying about the game and not the calls, end of story.

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Anon  
Years ago

In SA you are not allowed to talk to a ref until a time-out or break in the game....and it should only be the Coach asking and no-one else, that is why they turn their backs on you - this information is on the BSA website

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Anon, were is this info, i couldn't find it on the BSA website. Also, what is the definition of a "break in the game". Is it a ball that is out of bounds, foul shots, subs? I have tried all of those with no response.

If it is an ongoing issue within the game, like you think you are not getting the calls you should be, sure, wait until a timeout or in between quarters. But if it is a simple question like, please look at this for me, why can't they at least acknowledge you?

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Squizzy  
Years ago

Shadow Boxer & Agreed,

I attended both the Nunawading tournament & the Classics & would have to say that my thoughts on the refereeing were very different.

Generalising is always dangerous but I saw a tendency to call all (even very soft) hands fouls even when there was no disadvantage but then let body fouls go.

If your idea of superior refereeing is to allow the defender to jump into the offensive player then I am sure that you would have enjoyed it in Melbourne, but some of the decisons I saw made me think that the standard here for refereeing is better than that in Victoria. I witnessed some decisions where it was obvious that the referees did not know the rules (1/2 court violations with no team control, allowing a delay for substitutions between free throws, no comprehension of a correctable vs uncorrectable error etc)

As for communication with referees - I think that most referees here do not have a problem with communication or clarifying a decision providing this is done in the right manner & a break in play is the most appropriate time.

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Camel 29  
Years ago

In my meaningless opinion the discussion going on here is actually two different issues.

One being the standard/style of which referees ref a game in SA as opposed to other states, and based on the last weekend Victoria in particular.

And the issue of experienced referees as opposed to less experienced ones.

In regards to standard/style the game is taught very differently to referees in every state, as it is to players and coaches. In my experience SA referees will apply advanatage/disadvantage to every contact situation where as in Victoria they'll allow a lot more body contact and zero amount of hands fouls.

This comes about because of the way the rules are interpreted by referees as well as those at the top in each state. It's no different to coaching or playing. The style of basketball played in Junior basketball in Victoria is very different to that played in SA. Coaching styles generally are different as well. Those coaches with experience at interstate/national tournaments have a massive advantage to those who don't or those that try to fight the system. SA teams travelling to Victoria have a lot of change to accept playing in their world, as the Victorian teams will tell you they go through when they come over here for Easter.

The comments about being able to talk to referees or having better or worse referees comes down to the experience of the individual referees.

In SA there was a By-Law/Rule introduced to protect referees from over the top coaches at junior basketball level. Obviously the other side of this arguement is this stops legitimate conversations happening or calm and reasonable questions from being asked. It's a kneejerk reaction to the dwindling numbers in refereeing and the sometimes extremely poor behaviour of some coaches and spectators at Junior basketball level. Approach a senior referee with a decent amount of experience in the right manner and you'll get an answer. Approach a junior referee or be loud or personal when trying to get your point across and expect to either be ignored or be on your way to being put back in your place.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

The officiating at the classics covered everything from very good to very bad with non calls the major difference.
The AFL had, and some would argue still has, the problem of running mainly Victorian umps who maintain a bias that is subjective not overt cheating where being a Victorian umpire carries baggage that can skew results.
Basketball needs to use more neutral refs especially at Nationals where despite the officials' oath being taken is not scrupulously adhered to.
Interstate teams are sick of hearing the Vic refs 'let it go more 'because this is blatant nonsense. The difference with Vic refs officiating games between interstate teams and Victorian teams is that they watch for more infringements from the interstaters on a subjective level which is part of the home turf phenomenon.
Vic teams are great, Vic refs don't deliberately cheat but the advantages the Victorian basketballers have would be diminished if a more consistently fairer system of officiating was in place at all levels of competition that addressed the issues of bias.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

How many times are you going to post the same sook?

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Pug  
Years ago

Shadow boxer, are you sure you went to Victoria on the weekend? I saw some of both and must say it was frustrating at how the Vic refs called very soft all weekend & every now and then would miss absolute clangers.

Fair dinkum, some refs had a habit of calling "intent to foul" when no contact was made at all.

The Vics call their junior Bball very different from WNBL or NBL.

Cant wait to get back to normal this Friday night.

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MP  
Years ago

Anon #189446,

The general rostering of referees at Nationals is to try not to roster the referee in games involving their home state, where it can be avoided.

So to say we are not upholding our end as per the officials oath is a bunch of crap. We have very high standard set by Basketball Australia, The referee supervisors and the group themselves.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

I agree with the fact that Victorian refs are much more willing to explain their decisions to coaches then refs in SA. Nothing frustrates me more then not understanding what a ref is looking for when they calls fouls, because if I dont know then how can I tell my players what not specifically to do?
I think overall Victorian refs are given more oppourtunity to become better officials because they are given more exposure through Basketball Victoria and more of them seem to get more chances to ref at things such as Classics and junior Nationals; classics especially because of it being in Vic. Perhaps SA needs to campaign harder to get its elite refs down there more often?

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Anonymous  
Years ago

MP, what's the ratio of Vic refs to others at the Nationals? The answer to that is why you inserted the 'where it can be avoided' rider.
And 449, till its changed.

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DaddyO  
Years ago

Nunawading was short of refs so the standard was variable. The best refs, even in the lower grades, were as good as you could hope for & equal to any of our best local refs. As usual, the good refs were the easiest to talk to, even when a call was disputed. You get home court refs for home court teams, which is no different to SA.

189437, spot on with the hands v body fouls. Any hand contact, particularly when the arm was straightened, was called. Heavy body contact seemed OK. So it took a few games to get used to. If you got the shot off you seemed more likely to get a call in your favour than if you got flattened before the shot.

A lot of the Victorian teams, particularly in the girls, have guards with more body strength than the SA teams and used it to good effect. We select the fastest girls as guards, they match our pace but have the strength as well.

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LC  
Years ago

I'm with DaddyO with the refs at Nunawading. They were short of refs and you got some good in with the 'bad'.
The refs at the classic in most cases had at least 1 neutral ref on each game FYI. You will find games between teams from other states other than VIC usually had two VIC refs on them.
In general I found that body contact is more accepted in VIC, and they penalise just about everything that disadvantages the ball handler.
I also agree that in general the more experienced referees in both states will be more willing to talk to coaches and explain calls than less experienced ones.
The biggest difference between all states in Oz is the depth the VIC's have across all age groups. There were VIC teams playing at Nunawading in A grade that would have been stronger than some of the SA and NSW teams playing at the Classic. Whilst we have a smaller playing base in SA, it would be great if we could get more junioprs playing to help improve our depth too.
Even though we did well, we should not accept the status quo or we will not improve further.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Daddy o, I think you're way off with that observation as it's the Vic's bigger players who always cause the problems that we struggle to match up on in the girls. They go for stocky no doubt but looking at the scoring in the girls across the 16 and 18's we had several in the top 5 suggesting our girls more than held their own and several were guards.

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Camel 29  
Years ago

#469 If a Victorian referee is clearly the best ref at a National Championship does he/she deserve the Grand Final? Or should that referee do a 5v6 game because that's the highest game that doesn't involve Victorian teams. I think you might find that sort of scenario is why MP included the 'where it can be avoided' rider. If you were coaching in the Grand Final would you rather the best referees on your game or the best referees, from states not playing refereeing the game?

I'm pretty sure the referees at Nationals get appointed on the same ratio as the teams are.

I'm pretty sure that changes to the allocation is made due to states such as NT not having suitable standard referees to send. In those cases I think the local state where the Nationals is being held is asked to supply additional referees. I'd certainly expect to see more SA refs at this years Under 14 girls Nationals (which are being held at Starplex) then Victorians for example.

And as far as 'til its changed' what changes exactly would you like to see happen? I don't think anyone would argue that the game in this state needs improving and that includes refereeing standards but whats the answer?

While in the majority this thread has been constructive I don't think the title of the thread is or some of the attacks made by some in this thread. We all want SA to return to being an elite basketball state in this country, refereeing is just one part of the slide that SA is on. We need to fix junior basketball in all aspects, refereeing should be included as part of that goal.

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FM  
Years ago

Camel is correct. Each state gets 1 referee per team. NT doesn't always fill its quota and therefore the home state gets to include a replacement referee for the NT (accomm & meals covered by NT).

So Vic, NSW, QLD, WA & SA have the same number of referee spots at nationals - 4. ACT, TAS & NT get 2.

Depending on the quality that is sent will determine who gets what game. At a national level if you are competiting for a gold medal game, the standard of play doesnt give you enough time to enable you to make bias decisions let alone attempt to.

If you want to know what the call was for, listen to the preventative advice to the player before the player fouls, what the ref says on making the call and listen to what he says when reporting it to the bench. Then if you dont understand, it might be worth asking a question. To often the coach hasn't done any of those 3 things, and therefore the referee isn't going to bother wasting their time talking to you.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

we are sending 4 refs to each tournament this year, 2 metro, 2 country, and each state will do the same. The home state only supplies extra refs if there are spots left over, ie, if NT or one of the states does not fill all spots. Even NZ sends a ref.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

A question I have is that if we send refs to learn at these tournaments and they learn to ref in a better way ...... why do they get told to return to their old ways upon return? This from an frustrated SA ref who was there.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Some of you should learn advantage disadvantage before say calls are soft.
some said soemthing about soft fouls on shooters
ANY CONTACT ON A SHOOTER IS A FOUL!!!

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