1. Jason Dix (if fit)
2. Jacob Holmes (if he stays)
3. Oscar Forman
4. Daniel Thompson
5. Brad Gerlach

Why didn't the Sixers try putting someone like Dan Thompson in for the 10th bench spot this year?

Also, my pick for MVP, Oscar. Will drop 30 and 20 most games the way he is shooting atm.

My understanding is that Dan did train with the Sixers in the pre-season but thought it would be too much for his knee too early so he decided to give it a miss. If he gets through the ABL season don't be surprised to see him out there next year.

Dix will struggle ealry with confidence on his knee (as many do after serious knee injuries). Oscar will get more attention in ABL than NBL. Watch out for Paul Rogers (will play for nothing) and Dusty Rychart although they will take votes off each other. Gerlach could be a front runner if Pochahontas doesn't play. How about Sutton as a dark horse - may pick up a lot of votes early while Dix and co warm up.

Pip are indicating that both Rogers and Rychart will play for North this season?

Rychart can't play as he's an import - doesn't fit with the cap!! Impossible for any Central Conference teams to have an import due to the salary cap.

How about one of the Centrals boys? I reckon they will win a few more games this year, and with only 1 or two stars they won't take too many votes from each other

Reckon they'll get enough wins though?

But yes, I was going to suggest Wilkey as an option.

Well if the rumours are true about Newley playing....

What about Vandenbergh or Watson at Centrals. That's a big 3 to contend with, but out of those 3 I think Paul would get more votes because he can dominate on both ends. Wilkey is more offensive minded, but then again, we only see scores in the paper, not defensive stops.

I was thinking Vandenbergh too. If Newley plays he will carve up. Will he play a whole season though? Probably won't matter! If he plays 10 games he might get max votes in all of them

deak - Rychart will be a citizen soon and hence, not an import

Reggie by a mile, he will be the one shining through on that team,

You can rule out a Jacob Holmes 3peat.

I was wondering how long it would be before someone tried to tell us Paul Rogers would be back playing for North. Give it a rest people, we've heard this EVERY one of the last 5 years.

MVP talk is ludicrous at this time of year. Can we please wait until round 1. At least at that time we will know the following;

1) Jacob is not playing.
2) Rogers is not playing
3) Dusty is not playing
4) Pochintesta is not playing (the man is recovering from a snapped Achilles remember ppl)
5) Kent has gone to X
6) Newley is not playing
7) Mottram is / is not playing
8) Rees is playing at X
9) Centrals might win a game

In reference to Sullivan. It would be great to see him have an excellent season, he is a great player but he is highly unlikely to win the league MVP with Dix, Farman, Sutton and possibly Mottram in the side.

4:30. Knock off time. I'm takin my lunch pail and heading to the pub for a schooner of west end draught.

Cameron Wilson, the summer season MVP. DOn't rule him out!

What about the women?

darren ng

Nick Hambour

Dusty won't be playing here, like everyone else has said, there's no money here and with salary cap restrictions it's pretty much impossible to pay for an import. He can't become a citizen just yet either there are time restrictions there that he'll have to follow and from what i've been told he's thinking about playing over in NZ.

Pochey still hasnt been confirmed back, but it looks like a no show, but apparently another WA boy will be suiting for southern who is just as good, so look for him to take it, if not, gerlach is a shot, altho i dont know if southern will be successful enough, so if not one of those two, it will be one of the usual suspects. as for the women, Fricker is good but no chance of MVP, im putting my money on hannah bowley as the drak horse

Men - Williams will win this year as I think he will have a big one. No big name in the comp to win it this year.
Women - Bibby or Phillips but they might take to many votes from each other.

As far as I know (can someone confirm this) the new salary effectively prevents imports from playing because it would cost at least the salary cap for all the visa requirements and minimum salary etc. But surely if a player is naturalised then these legal moentary requirements do not exist any more? The two to three year wait would have nothing to do with it. The salary cap doesn't mean imports cannot play at all it just means that no one can afford them for the reasons mentioned above. But maybe a naturalised import could still play regardless of whether they have waited 2 or 3 years?

tigers will be top 3 this year. gerlach will be unstoppable, average 30p a game. hoban will grab 20 and 12 every single game. both of them will be in sixers team this time next year. i presume whoever suggested hambour for mvp was joking..... surely.

Good question? What should the penalty be for cap breaches? Stripped of all championship points (ala Bulldogs in the NRL)? Some sort of fine? Team suspension (ala US colleges)?

If a salary cap breech is penalised by a fine, this would do nothing because the more financial clubs would be able to afford a fine. IMHO a good penalty should be losing all championship points, as deak said, ala Bulldogs.

well you can all thank Forestville for the salary cap being put into place this year.All their senior coaches have done is gone out and bought players from other clubs. They should be the first club that has their books examined, especially when one of their studs has been bragging about how they plan to get around the cap. obviously Dix will be taking a huge cut if they plan to get a Mottram or Pero back. Perhaps last year they should have had a bigger cheque book to buy another player to get into the finals, what Pero and Rees wasnt good enough to get to the post season finals.

Your post is very critical of Forestville however you must have a very short memory to overlook almost every other Club buying NBL players or oversease imports. You should try and get hold of the financial reports from BASA and see what Clubs out there owe and how much they owe to BASA and I will tell you that you won't find Forestville's name on the list yet these same Clubs can find heaps of cash for there NBL and overseas imports.

If you have any other questions or would like to discuss this matter further do not hesitate to contact me on 041 048 6693.

Michael Sweeney
Secretary

so is what your saying if a club cant afford a players wage they ask to loan money from BASA? is there a limit on how much you can borrow?is it fair to clubs that cant afford top players?

I think what he means is that Clubs have a debt with BASA (court hire, team nominations etc) and still are in the market to try and get NBL oe WNBL players to play at their Club even though they have outstanding debts to BASA.

I would like to think that if a Club is in debt to BASA for say in excess of $10K at the 31st Jan then that Club should not be allowed to spend the full salary cap and should have a restriction of how much of the $25K salary cap it is allowed to spend (i.e., say 60%).

A sliding scale should be put in place by the Club Presidents so Clubs can only spend a certain percentage of the salary cap if that Club has outstanding debts to BASA. However I feel that would be placed in the too hard basket like a lot of other issues.

Good point Easy Rider. If you owe cash, you can't go and spend it (within reason). It does cost money to make money, but surely it needs to be done sensibly.

Gee, dangle the worm on the hook and Forestville sure bite quickly. Inside knowledge at my end says the truth probably stings a bit.

easy rider -- but surely this would favour the financially stronger teams to an extent? Given that the cap may be partially in place to avoid that, I'm not sure that your suggestion would be for the best.

I'm an outsider so could well be wrong, but I assume that two reasons for the cap would be to keep the competition even and to limit the amount of money spent on senior teams over junior teams?

Maybe just maybe some1 from centrals, People dont be surprised when centrals win a few.

Ive heard that they have a stronger side this year. Juy from big V, Wilkey (if he plays D), Reggie and a few other undecided.

Not on the bottom 4 centrals would be a good start as they have some good players in the mix, thats what they have needed for a long time, lets hope it pays off.

Darren Ng 4 Sure

Sorry Mr Sweeney as I don't know who you are but when you say secretary as your role is that at Forestville or BASA?
Your definitely right in saying that a lot of clubs are and have been at some point of time in debt. Again your right in saying the main reason is to try and stay competitive in the league, but buying NBL and Imports hasn't really been happening too much in the last 7 years or so, with a few exceptions.
Not everyone has the ideal set up that forestville or Sturt have. They are lucky in the fact that they have things like WNBL games, bar facilities, a good relationship with the Stadium owners, a good canteen, more junior teams than others, a financially supported fan base and location. All these things add up and for teams to try and keep up with clubs like this they were forced to go in the red. I think BASA and a lot of clubs started to see this when mergers started and thus the salary cap was introduced. This gives clubs an opportunity to try and stay competitive and knock off that debt. I too have heard from the horses mouth that Forestville will be pulling out just about every trick in the book to cheat the system and have done that typ of thing for a number of years.
Let's just hope that anyone cheating the system gets caught and penalised and we keep the league as level yet competitive as possible. The last thing we want to see is more clubs folding.

Be careful Panther, to say that Forestville will be trying to cheat the system infers breaking the rules. I believe that every club will try and use the rules to their own advantage.

Panther I am the Secretary/Admin Officer for Forestville your allegations are laughable however that is how rumours start so please give me a call on 041 048 6693 and I will clatify several of your allegations.

I agree that we have been very fortunate with our facility howver I can say from the moment we walked through the doors we as a Club have worked our collective butts off to make it work.

I look forward to your call.

Michael Sweeney
Secretary/Admin Officer
Forestville Eagles

Michael, I never said you guys don't work your butts off, and good things fortunate or not tend to happen to those types of people and I commend yourself and the club. Forestville and Sturt are two clubs I admire the most, for god sake I almost played at Sturt at one stage.
But how can you say my allegations are laughable when they come from the horse's mouth. I'm not going to sit there and say show me your books, that's not my job, but everyone know's there are going to be grey areas with something new like the salary cap and I guess what your telling me is you'll be the most creative...

If clubs can easily offer PlayerX $xk to play, with part of that being a payment as a player (under the cap), and another part being for other services to the club (coaching, marketing, working with sponsors, etc), how is the cap going to be effective?

Can anyone tell me what's in place to stop that happening unfairly?

And since no one's mentioned it, I believe there was news recently of Rychart signing in New Zealand for the off-season.

Here's the article.

That was the same thing I was talking about as well Isaac. And if this work is cash in hand type of work, how's this showed on the books?
C'mon Isaac, I broke the news about Dusty going to NZ a while back!

While we're talking Forestville, does anyone have any news on the status of Cameron Wood? What's he up to this year?

Panther you have not called me as yet. How can you say that it is straight from the horses mouth when it is me that pays the cheques. Any allegations against us are just that you have no idea what goes on at Forestville and you have not the courage to post under you're real name or the courtesy of giving me a call.

In industry and sport what an employee or sportsman earns is between his or her employer or Club and nobodys else's business and any other comments from other people will be just hersay and rumors.

Still I await your call.

Michael Sweeney
Secretary/Admin Officer
Forestville Eagles

PS To Moses Guthrie Cameron has spent the last four weeks on a heavy fitness program and looked in good nick at his first on court session last Monday

Panther,
You raise some good points. I think though we should let Forestville buy as many players as possible because it certainly didn't work for them last year in the men. Didn't their men not make finals after having Rees, Pero etc. I am curious though. Michael, Why did Forestville end up with the lighting homes games. Was this process tendered out, because I heard nothing about it until it was announced that all home games were at Wayville.

Michael, what is a phone call going to achieve? If you really want me to call I can but your going to ask me who said what, i'm not going to "dob" on your players for the fact they may get in trouble from the club. Even if I were to tell you who it was you would deny it and tell me otherwise.
What players make is like you said is between the club and the player but if some of your players are telling people about ways of payment which to me sound beyond normal payment structures i'm going to call a spade a spade.

To Panther & the other critics

If you do not have the courage to firstly identify yourself when you are making allegations that border on libel and are not prepared to name your source then I suggest you keep any rumours or gossip that you may have to yourself because to be quiet honest with you we at Forestville are not interested in rumours and gossip we would rather just stick to the facts.

Right now we have broken no rules as the salary cap does not come into effect until the 2005 season which does not start until March 5th so i find it a bit hard to swallow that we are being accused of breaking the salary cap laws in advance, if only we could all see into the future.

As a Club we would rather not have to deal with the salary cap but only from a purely administative position because all it will do is create more paper work for the few overworked volunteers that each Club has already dealing with paperwork for GST payments, super, workers comp etc.

Panther I am only assuming that you are a South player/supporter and my advice is don't spend your valuable time worrying about what other Clubs are doing put your time and effort into geeting your own shit heap in order they could sure use the help.

In closing my offer still stands call me or name names or do us all a favour and shut up.

Michael Sweeney
Secetary/Admin Officer
Forestville eagles

Geez, someone got out of the wrong side of the bed this morning!

rees, pero, campbell, sully, no finals? yeah Michael id say your house is in real order!

Boys

I would like to continue the thread like go through Club's team lists and see where the players came from like Davis, Smith, Braithwaite etc but I have not got time at the moment have to organise the AQL home game V Dandenong on Friday which should be a beauty and the Senior Country Carnival on the weekend.

Sweens

Michael on a different note can you confirm or deny that Brad Newley is playing for Forestville this ABL Season? I have two good sources who give two very different answers!

Also, if you want to know Panther's identity, just go back and look at a few of the posts he posted in his early career. It's not that big of a secret.

Again also, so if the salary cap isn't in effect yet, would you say it is possible players are getting paid lump sums up front now prior to its coming into effect?

Damm you beet me 2 it Libertine i was just about to raise that point about there players getting paid lump sums before the salary cap comes in 2 effect.

"Right now we have broken no rules as the salary cap does not come into effect until the 2005 season which does not start until March 5th so i find it a bit hard to swallow that we are being accused of breaking the salary cap laws"

But are you payin them lump sums? or should this not be discussed

as you stated earier on

"In industry and sport what an employee or sportsman earns is between his or her employer or Club and nobodys else's "

Feel free to reply Michael Sweeney im lookin forward to it.

What everyone is asking is 'Is Forestville breaking the spirit of the salary cap rules?' If you read Panther's posts carefully, he is suggesting Forestville will do everything in its power to test the rules, or get around the rules.

Lump sum payments are one way, but surely BASA can rule on whether a payment is for one purpose or another?

A club can be within salary cap rules, but still be contradicting the purpose of the rule - an even playing field financially - by making payments in other ways.

I believe that was Panther's point.

I can assure that no Forestville player has been paid any payments relating to the up coming 2005 season. My point was that we at Forestville were being accused of breaking the rules when in fact the season has not started. Again I point out that no one has received any money before the season has started. to Libertine I have no idea or really care about the identity of panther I have given him/her ample opportunity to either name names or contact me and they have decided to do neither so why worry about them.

What is the salary cap anyone? Just curious..

25k, i believe to be shared between bothe men/women.

A salary cap is like communism

Great in theory
Gets abused in reality

QuickHandle, you have been brainwashed by capitalist propaganda.

Your grain production quota will be doubled so we can acheive the next 5 year plan

lol, not too sure Marx would have said that!

The cap is 25k, and must not be spent more then 60% on one program - ie 15k on the mens/womens, maximum, with 10k going to the other program. Can't be bothered checking if this includes coaches salaries as well.

Of course, in a perect world clubs wouldn't be spending that kind of money and putting it into developing juniors who with their love for the club harnessed over many years would be more than happy to play for beans...

Hypothetical,

Club A develops a junior player to the level of ABL.

Club B is a financially stronger club.

Both clubs have little room under the cap to pay this player.

BUT
Club B can offer $100 an hour for this player to do individual sessions with some of its juniors.

Club A cannot afford this.

Not only are Club B getting around the salary cap their junior program is getting an advantage.

This is morally wrong
But could happen?

Michael, i'm not worried about your team at all and after your comments about my club the amount of respect towards forestville has dropped considerably. Why would I want to name names to you when I know these players could be reprimanded from your club. I had a conversation between these people on a personal level and in a way I apologise for bringing this up, as it stays between me and them.
But Michael, this is pretty common knowledge about what Forestville offer and as you can see by the number of responses on here i'm not the only one talking about this.
How about next season I meet you at the bar or the sausage sizzle as i'm assuming that's where you'll be hanging out and i'll by you a beer off of Dixie, Mottram, or Pero, god knows you've spent enough money on hot dogs to pay Dixie's wages...
Jason Baylis
a.k.a Panther

The salary cap should be 20k

with an extra $500 added to the cap
for each player who has played juniors (ie more than 5 years) at that club.

That way a good junior program will translate into a good senior program.

Rather than money being the defining factor.

ie, 20 senior players
half were club juniors
extra 5K

brings cap to 25k

any thoughts?

I think this idea has some real merit. Every club in the comp has developed some outstanding juniors only to see them play seniors elsewhere. This is not always about money however. We've all known players to leave for greater minutes or to join mates.

How do think some of Sturt coaches over the years feel about watching
Osborne, Leaver, Matthews, Holmes, Hill etc play their seniors elsewhere.

Over the years the Eags have paid, Rose, McKay, Pearce, Simmons, Mottram, Rees and Pero to play for them. But some people have short memories.

Woodville: Joseph (title)
West: Simmons (title)
South: Davis (title - multiple)
NCT: Simpson (title)
Mavericks: Holmes (title)
Norwood: Sapwell, Brogan (title)

From memory Sturt are the only team in the last 20 years to win without a big name/big cost recruit.

Stella,

There has to be some incentive to take players all the way through from junior to senior.
Or some clubs will as they do, think its ok to recruit players to build a good team then pat themselves on the back when they get results.

Libertine, coaches salaries are not included, including seniors or juniors, development coaches, bar men/women, etc...
Anonymous nice post, i'm sure you'll find most games are within a few points by memory. Even with the team you've bought.

Panther

For the last time you have no idea what palyers are paid at Forestville because I do the contracts and I write the cheques and I have never spoken to you and probably never will so all it can be is rumour and gossip and at times sailing close to libel.

As for Stella Artois you are quiet correct about short memories South went broke over Davis and I cannot remember all the imports Noarlunga have had in their time.

Michael Sweeney

bloody hell panther, give it a rest mate, seriously. try to understand firstly what michael has been saying to you alright? read it over if u have to, but just understand the facts alright.

Panther

For the last time you have no idea what palyers are paid at Forestville because I do the contracts and I write the cheques and I have never spoken to you and probably never will so all it can be is rumour and gossip and at times sailing close to libel.

As for Stella Artois you are quiet correct about short memories South went broke over Davis and I cannot remember all the imports Noarlunga have had in their time.

Michael Sweeney

John,
I think you'll find Panther is voicing the concerns of a greater basketball community.
"understand the facts"
alleged facts!


Michael,
While I have a great deal of respect for the work you do for your club.
I also know you are are one eyed Forestville supporter.

The comments you made about South and things I've heard you said about my club are reason enough for others in the basketball community to not trust you.

Sweeney i think you will find that MD was not the one that sent South broke but rather a few years after that of getting imports...people like Nunnelly, Henderson, Goodman..those are the imports that were costly, especially Sidney, they were paying him too much when the club was already in the red..

Well this is easily solved.... put up or shut up!!!!!!!!!

TO : Panther, Jason Baylis
Your accusations I see as slanderous and close to libel, inflammatory and provocative. IF they are true, PROVE it by getting your sources to produce facts AND evidence AND they sign a Statutory Declaration in front of a JP under The Oaths Act! (if their Stat Dec proves untrue then the full force of the law will fall upon them!) Then take ALL that to BASA and let procedures & investigations roll.

Otherwise, perhaps Panther you have been set up?? :P:P

Everyone : let's not denigrate ANY person or club with vitriolic diatribe. HELL we need to boost this sport, not start a self destructing, puss filled, cancerous sore!

Good health and Good season to all teams in all clubs!!

Just as an aside, I'd like to present Michael Sweeney with our inaugural "Only person on this forum who didn't know who Panther was" trophy. ;)

To everyone, how about we take this away from a "Forestville is doing X" topic to more of a "Is the cap going to serve its purpose if it's easy to get around?" topic.

Given that no club is going to publically confirm that they're evading the cap, I think that this thread is too narrowly focussed to get any real conclusion.

Look at the NBL -- the salary cap isn't the only thing they use to attempt to keep the competition even.

i didnt know who panther was. neither did several others. not quite right there isaac.

No worries -- the trophy maker offers discount for bulk purchases.

Anonymous, I think you'll find the Starplex leaves Wayville for dead. And other than the sparse empty spaces, surely the DHD is a better venue also.

It just smells of the rich always getting more while the poor battle over the scraps.

To Michael Sweeney - Cameron Wood looked in good nick? Strewth - that would be a first. He must be developing a second ab now (Cam - just kidding dude).

To Panther and all the cap arguants - love this stuff. I agree that Fville probably are getting around the cap somehow (or at least trying their best to work out how to), but they won't be alone. Will be very interesting to see how it all works. Maybe Fville and Sturt will apply for a higher living allowance (aka Sydney Kings), 'cause the socio-economic status of their suburbs is higher!

Anonymous,

I think that its fantastic that the lighting games go to wayville, NOT! It should have nothing to do with the stadium. Its funny how Michael has not answered this question. Why should Forestville benefit through the bar and canteen. It also raises it profile with the basketball community both on TV and the papers. It seems that Forestville are well looked after financially by how many events are held at their stadium. I have noticed that Wayville is never empty on a Friday Night or Sat. morn. I think people should also look at State Championships, country championships, national championships. Why are Forestville looked after so well. Why should they gain all the money through bar and canteen facilities and BBQs? Why are other clubs struggling with money because they don't get finals or ever see national champs. Could it be that Colin Jennings works out draws especially for State Champs. Funny how much Forestville players don't travel. And before anyone says that Wayville is central to everyone, don't forget all those years that everyone had to travel to Athol Park for finals. Why can't finals be rotated around to all stadiums? If we had to go to Starplex one year then at least everybody would know that they did not have to go there again for another 6 years. This might be off the track, but it all comes back to some clubs having more money than others, therefore being able to get the better things for their club.

Let's split that up into its separate issues. Surely Wayville is the best place for Lightning games? Central, good facilities, fixed seating and space for more, parking, etc?

On the Lightning at Wayville Foestville was approached by the then AQL Committee to run games at Wayville we agreed and yes we take the profits from the bar and canteen.

With the AQL playing at its own venue it raise money through sponsorship and ticket sales that it was not able to do when the games were played as curtain raisers to the sixers. I am not privy to the figures but say AQL generate $50K that really equates to $5k per Club that is being saved by the AQL playing out of their own venue.

I am able to but wont give you the figures that Forestville spent on a new sound system and cost of the portable stands just to say the first two years that the AQL played at Wayviile the Club showed no profit and when you take in the amount of time our dedicated bunch of volunteers put into setting up the stadium running the game and then pulling all the stands down surely you can't deny the Club making some money.

Michael Sweeney

Dear Michael and Fairviewer, I acknowledge that unless I give up the players I have spoken too my allegations have no substance which is why I posted earlier in this topic,"...I had a conversation between these people on a personal level and in a way I apologise for bringing this up, as it stays between me and them." Once again I apologise to Forstville Basketball Club for comments made in this post topic and wish you all the best for the upcoming season.
The salary cap is a great idea to try and level the playing field in our league and like Fairviewer said we need to do everything we can to boost the sport. Let's just hope that no club takes advantage of "grey" areas in the new salary cap rules and we have such an even competition we start to draw those crowds back.
Good luck to all clubs!!!
Jason Baylis.

Get back to work Chopper!

Panther,

Is that a 'forced' retraction of what you have said? It lookes like an apology.

No not forced at all. Just looking out for the best interests of the game.

Here here!! For the good of the Game!!

anyway, I think Brad Gerlach will give the MVP Award a fair shake.

For the good of the game. Sure! Sorry but I think someone had a hand in his back.

Trust me In the Know, there was no hand. Ask Michael, or fairview(if he's actually involved with Forestville).

Michael,
Im sure you are a great person for the club, but obviously a little bias and no critical reading skills. Panther not once accused Forestville of anything, merely stated that players had said of ways of getting around the salary cap. Your explosive replies are a dead giveaway that it is or will happen, but lets be honest, all clubs would, if they could afford it, do it. Secondly, as for Lightning games at Wayville, you need to look no further than everything else, it was either Forestville or Sturt because they both get looked after by BASA, much more so than other clubs. Not saying they dont deserve to keep the games now that they do a good job, but should they have been given the opportunity over others in the first place? debateable. Think of it this way, if South or Southern were to have their homegrounds at the wayville stadium would it still be played there? NO.

As for Newley, I have 95% confidence he will not be playing for the Eagles, but hopefully Michael can confirm either way for us?
Kind regards,
Richard