I'm with you 'In the Know' - we're not saying that they should magically appear...if there are games scheduled - weeks / months in advance - it is BASA's responsibility to make sure there are refs out there - it's like any ordinary business if you organise for something to happen at a certain time and place and you don't turn up then your going to have to expect some flac!

They don't magical appear, but they don't magical disappear as well. We did not have this problem last year! I am under the beleive that the stadiums are left to their own devices to find their own refs. No rosters anymore. Can any clarify whether I am write or not?

If your club has issues with the current shortage/quality of referees, can I suggest the following:
- convince the powers-that-be at your club to stamp out abuse of umpires by parents, players and coaches
- develop a plan whereby your club can work with stadium UICs to help recruit, promote, develop and educate referees
- ask your club's junior BASA committee delegate to find out what plans the new BASA Referees Coordinator is implementing to fix the problem, long term. Although I personally don't know the details, I'm convinced that positive changes are occuring.

We'll see how sure you are of the positive changes when one of your games is affected, Paul.

Have you removed the fence pole from where it shouldn't be, yet? Why can't you ever have an actual opinion?

As a ref who gave it all away, I can only agree with what Paul said.

If refs werent abused, harrassed, threatened, and WERE respected, and treated with courtesy and dignity, the issues wouldnt be arising now.

Who in their right mind wants to give up a Friday night to run around a basketball court for a few hours, to get paid a miserable few bucks an hour, and get abused as much as they do?

yogee, i agree, and am in a similar boat, was an umpire doing all grades up to high level seniors. but to get refs past the juniors stage, they need the confidence, which come from NOT being abused. A concept that is being trialed in a regional competition is that junior referees wear red arm bands.

Any ref with a red arm band cannot be approached by any players, coaches or spectators, the penalty is that they can be thrown from the game. This works best when this junior ref is coupled with a senior (non-red arm band) ref to handle any issues. Also the umpire in charge should be seen as the point of contact for queires.

This has so far been very well received, and the guidleines have been respected, perhaps BASA could look at adopting a similar concept??

Let me say that I wasn't disagreeing with Paul. I do agree that if they got paid an even nearly normal hourly rate and didn't get abused then that would help.

Also, this isn't just affecting Juniors. Stadiums now have to provide their own refs for div 2 and below senior games.

What are things like zero-tolerance for? This has been in effect for a few years now, but what has it really achieved? Obviously, it hasn't encouraged people to become refs "becuase you won't be abused".

But when it starts at U10's - refer to other posts relating to a Tigers v Rattlers game - parents attitutes are very hard to change. Not to mention that kids pick up on these attitudes and behaviours.

Paul - you are right - please chat with me about this issue when next we meet - I have a couple of comments to make.

wayne, perhaps you could ask your terrible two about the system up the road?

where exactly is up the road?

AHRC

They have only been there once to ref - they liked their charge ref and enjoyed the experience but still wish to maintain strong links with Pasadena

Thanks to the Southern coach who reffed my game tonight. 3 games at 6pm with 2 refs in the house at the start.

I say screw it all and call our own fouls.

Seriously thought abuse in the game is a big problem, not just from coaches but the parents as well. Paul has done a bit to try and stamp it out in Forestville and hopefully similar measures are occuring at other clubs as well.

the director is blowing a whistle himself - along with his wife.Which is more than a lot of others

Re the dome -what i can't understand is there was 2 refs on 2 games at the dome and 0 on the 3rd game at 1800 - how they did not put a solo ref on 1 game is beyond me - they would have only been u12 games so they should've had 2-1-1 on the 3 courts.

If I spoke to anyone at work they way spectators and coaches refer to referees at junior sport - they would have me up on bullying / harassment

i was up until lunchtime yday going to watch the footy but neal rang me and asked if i would be a fill in UIC at pt adelaide.
i ended up doing 4 games of which 3 were solo. everyone there tried there best but it doesn't help when i have to stop an u-12 boys game TWICE to not tell a coach to shutup but southern tigers supporters. cmon people in an u-12 boys game!!! i can handle it but if it was a junior referee they might not of.
than in my next solo which was an u-14 boys game which was a 60 point spread i verbally attacked after the game not by the southern coach (who might i add was fantastically understanding of my situation) but by a big guy and an old man.
saying that i was a disgrace and it was the worst reffing he has ever seen!!! even though west had twice as many fouls as southern.
this is the sort of crap we need to stamp out or if we will never solve the shortage of referee's.
just thought i would put my 2 cents in.

I've had a quick read of the Forestville guidelines/suggestions. Is there any approach along these lines from BASA for all clubs to teach, or could there be stronger enforcement at a higher level?

Surely that is the best way forward?

Should parents even be talking to the referees? If they have a query or a complaint, couldn't it be done through the coach and no one else?

Agreed there anonymous.

The parents claim to be talking to their partner/friend sitting next to them, but the comments are so loud they can be clearly heard by every person on court.

The culture of basketball in this state needs to change. Only then will referees come back to the sport instead of referees continually leaving.

I'm not naive, I know referees make mistakes. I see calls I disagree with. But they are willing to actually referee while those same parents/coaches/players who constantly make comments are not. Considering the current culture referees deserve respect for just stepping onto the court.

Things will only continue to get worse under the current structure. Maybe it's time to have clubs responsible for referee development instead of BASA/local venues; like is the structure that is working extremely well in Victoria.

Morphett Vale has a large problem in gettin enough referees aswell for friday nights with saturday mornings not looking good either. With only very junior referees available makes it tough especially when coaches who are well known, and also very senior to the club, abuse them. What these clubs have to learn is if this abuse continues the UIC's will eventually not care about filling spots, referees will not want to come out, and these clubs will have no referees.....

But then again this sport breeds alot of ignorant and arrogant "so and so's", and i doubt that even if this is drilled into them nothing will change.

Give it 6 - 12 months time and we will see how much people will pay for the free for all abuse onr referees.

Referring is a job which they get paid to do, it may be little but its still paid. Look on the other hand, players make a decision to play and when they don't perform, they get abused by coaches. Verbally attacked for not playing well and then physical punishment at trainings. Ive seen teams not perform on Friday nights and then spend the entire sunday training getting yelled at and running for 1.5 hours because of poor performance. You don't see players complaining all the time. I feel for refs but I also have refereed and basically if refs did the job correctly and to their best performance they wouldn't need to get abused. I know im stepping on alot of peoples toes for saying that but thats my opinion.

Just having a read here and I can shine a bit of light on the red arm bands for junior umps being used at the AHRC. No they are not allowed to be approached by anybody and yes they umpire with a more senior umpire who answers any questions or passes the person on to the UIC. It makes everyone in the stadium aware that the umpire with the red armband is learning and since returning to umpiring juniors ,it seems to be working. The kids enjoy playing and the parents enjoy watching them.

There seems to be a lot of finger pointing here and comments like it is abuse etc etc. My boys ref and they have the choice of being paid $8 an hour for reffing or $12 an hour at a part time job. Both jobs involve some sort of downside (ask Lewis about the meatworks one day!!!!) They enjoy the company on Friday nights but like all of us the dollar will have the final say i am sure.

In terms of clubs Scott speaks with all Sturt coaches at the start of every season. We try to behave at our best (not always perfect).

As a Dad I am very thankful for the time that Peter, Graeme & Matt have put into my boys. Pasadena has a great program for junior refs and should be a model for others.

One interesting point as far as my boys are concerned. In the last 3 or 4 years there has only been one coach they felt very poorly about in terms of how he treated them. They will not ref one of his games if they can help it.

i must agree with both wayne and swish, although it is unfortunate, the mighty dollar will always rule, but there may be a solution that would allow referees to umpire without being attacked, read swish (#25252). Perhaps we need to create a mentality (although it would take perhaps two or three seasons) where referees are no longer abused, but respected, and give them a compensation worth their time. Either way, the referees situation in SA basketball need immediate attention.

The definition of 'abuse of umpires' is huge. Any form of physical threat/abuse, etc from spectators, coaches, or players is just not on in my opinion.

Individuals who bring this sort of physical intimidation have to be removed from our game.

In the area of verbal abuse it is more difficult.

Obviously over the top swearing, screaming at umpires has to be stamped out also.

In my opinion, the problem lies in the other areas of complaints from players and coaches.

The zero tolerance policy is good in theory but I question its effectiveness in practise.

I don't agree with yelling at an umpire but I must admit feeling a tad sympathetic to a player who gets smacked in the head that is seen and heard by all except the rookie umpires and a coach/player gets tech fouled for questioning the absence of a call.

I agree with a comment made above that players on average make far more mistakes per game than the umpires. The difference is that the umpires are not affected by these mistakes. In what way are the umpires affected if I shoot 0-20 in a game and commit 10 turn overs.

On the other hand players are affected when they pay good money to play a game that would have better control if played as a scratch match with players calling their own fouls.

It can actually get quite dangerous when two rookie refs allow what would have been a decent game between two fair teams degenerate into a form of rugby because they are not experienced enough/confident enough to make calls.

The irony is that I have seen some refs who technically speaking are not the best but players respect them because they are good communicators.

Even when copping abuse from players they laugh it off, give the players a decent explanation for their call or non-call. Most of the time these refs have played bball at one stage or another and know that players calling out 'how long' or complaining about 'non fouls' are a part of the game and don't take it to heart.

It would be great if all players, coaches, spectators treated the umpires with respect but I can't help but think that this is a utopia that will never be achieved.

Basketball is a sport where the umpires have huge power. Its not like seeing if the tennis ball went in or out. 10 players going at it physically in a sport where contact is 'technically' not allowed. Umpires have a huge discretion and on every play a variety of calls can be made.

Getting through a game with players and coaches alike not questioning a call is pretty wishful thinking although I acknowledge there are games where it does happen.

I think a lot of time should be spent with junior umpires explaining to them that the questioning of calls is a part of the game and not to take it to heart.

I truly believe that if an umpire learns to take the 'lower level abuse' with a grain of salt and learn to communicate well with even the grumpy players and coaches that they will do well.

If a lot of time was dedicated to explaining to the trainee refs that even the best refs in the NBA have the majority of their calls questioned by at least one player on court maybe they will be less likely to offended by the questioning of their calls?

Maybe I am just being pessimistic but how do you stamp out 'white line fever'? Players have been complaining about calls since the invention of the game.

The responsibility for parent behaviour has to be addressed by the club that their child plays for. When a child first joins a club, there needs to be a "Code of Conduct" document for both players and parents. They each need to read it and sign it to acknowledge their understanding of the conditions set out therein. One of the consequences of parents not adhering to the rules could be that their child will be disqualified from playing the next match. I know that is cruel on the child but it is going to send a clear message to the offending parents. There is no excuse whatsoever for a parent to make a complaint about a call. The coach of their team is more experienced than they are and if a complaint is warranted, the coach will make it.

As far as shortage of umpires go, that is the responsibility of the stadium. They collect $5 or $6 dollars whatever the amount is from each player to play, they also collect a few dollars from spectators. Should they not be giving a court and umpire in return for this money?

Rookie umpires with a red arm band is a good idea, but they should not be responsible for the game. They should be there just from a work experience point of view and when deemed to be experienced enough, can take some control over the game. They should be paid a minimal wage to do this just to keep them encouraged to progress to a more senior level. "Learner" umpires are usually very young and it gives them a little bit of extra pocket money. It is not an income that they need to live on. It beats washing cars and a 15 year old wouldn't earn any more than that working at McDonalds. The prospect of a promotion and an increase in wage that comes with it, will encourage them to do a good job and take the job seriously.

My son's job at 15 years old paid him $11 an hour - many jobs pay more. Mc Donald's is known amongst kids as a "rip-off". The kids are also out for a morning or evening 4 - 5 hours but may only ref 3 games. If they worked 4 - 5 hours they would earn more. It is important that basketball keep some parity and compete with these salaries. My sons have both spent full days training at no cost. It is not adequate nor constructive to simply dismiss the wage on one hand and then wonder why kids do not go on with refereeing. I gues the final comment to make is that they are going 17 not 15 and they are now ready to take on more responsibility - this is the exact time the game should not want to lose them.

I know there is the facility at an ABL game to make amplified announcements, but is there a similar possibility at junior games?

I'm thinking that someone could remind the crowd in attendance before each game of a few key rules -- things like saying that if you have a question regarding a specific call, approach a coach after the game, that abusers will be ejected, etc.

There have been some great ideas in recent threads, so hopefully they can be employed.

Whilst it was only social juniors, when I reffed at St Clair, we had a rule that it was the coaches responsibility to keep parents quiet.

If a parent became abusive, the ref could stop the game, warn the parent any further comments would result in their childs team receiving a bench tech, and the parent also being removed from the premises.

A few parents thought we were joking until a few refs started implementing. A coach ended up ejected due to abusive parents.

Well, what is the direction from BASA?

Are we still using the Yellow/Red Cards?

Or is it Zero Tolerance?

I do not believe yet that someone was actually come out and said what the actual ruling is.

It might have happened when I was sick last year and out of umpiring, and if so, would someone be able to let me know.

As a referee, I would just like to say that we know we are not going to get everybody in the stadium agreeing with everyone of our calls. We each are at a difference position in relation to the play. The majority of spectators, players and coaches are ok. It's just that small minority which make you question is it all worth it.

The more that clubs and teammates place on the person to stop abusing, the better it will be. If you can do it, it stops us having to do it.

We want a game that's good to ref. If we have fun, we'll want to come out and ref the next week - thus, the players can do what they love.

When I was sick, people asked me whether I still wanted to be involved in basketball. I can no longer play social (due to the fact that I take a lot of charges and my injury prevents that form happening any more). But, I still have that drive and desire to ref. When the sport of basketball, which I love so much, was taken away from me, it makes me want to get back to that same level that I was at (Under 18 Nationals).

I love the game! And with the amount of abuse that some referees get, and they still manage to come out the next week, it's their of the game that keeps them coming out.

From a senior point of view, referees want to be part of the game by sometimes calling home pleasing calls or by calling what they dont see between players or just plain guessing!!!! Then when we as players go on about it, they(referees) get upset and issue tech fouls or whatever.Yes i know we need referees to play but they want to be apart of the game as well then they have to wear whatever comes their way. I played in a game this weekend where my teammate was grabbed and smacked across the face and chest nothing was called, my teammate picked up his dribble and looked at the referee at least 2-3 seconds went by and then the referee blew his whistle. Now all the referees out there think players just dont like them but what players dont like is the obvious not being called and thats why players get frustrated!!!!