Is this the letter you are referring to?

Referee Abuse

yes

pretty simple, keep your mouth shut not that hard!!

if you are worrying about the refs you are not concentrating on your game

Thank you for the great advice "not a ref". Most times I am concentrating on my game as you don't even notice the refs - it's when they impose themselves adversely on a game where my demeanour changes!!

When the code of conduct emails/letters were sent to the clubs earlier this year some of the Refs appear to have adopted an attitude that they are untouchable and unquestionable for their decisions and that coahces are not allowed to even open their mouths to question anything - this has created more animosity between refs and coaches, supporters, players. I get the feeling it has got worse since the code of conduct was released. There needs to be better education of the refs in how to respond in a courteous manner to the coaches if they require explanation of a decision. Instead of shutting them down when they open their mouths to speak. Education of the coaches and players as well as to when it is appropriate to ask a question and also in a courteous manner.

I can see a lot of coaches asking their team managers to get the courts supervisor, particularly at MARS.

"I love how a thread about a letter saying referee abuse has to be stopped, ends in more referee abuse"

There had been no abuse in this thread until you made this comment. If you consider people making constructive comments or legitimate gripes to be abuse, then you are doing nothing to solve the problem of the divide between players/coaches and referees.

Where? On Hoops, or in a basketball stadium?

The issue is give and take. Coaches and players don't want to be spoken to like animals, yet they speak to the refs like animals. Refs don't want to be abused yet some find opportunities to inflame the situation and, essentially, some get on power trips. I must admit I'm terrible when it comes to complaining to the refs. I don't abuse them personally but more so question the call they made. I know this isn't the correct attitude, but when you are playing in a game and your competitive juices are flowing along with the adrenaline, its difficult to prevent.

I expect that a referee would converse with a player or coach if they approached them in the correct manner. If refs do not converse with the players/coaches that only makes them more likely to cop abuse IMO.

"Referees are entitled not to talk to coaches during the game to concentrate on their job" is a rubbish comment. With the amount of stoppages in basketball there is no requirement to be 'concentrating' on your job during a time-out or stoppage in play. That is just a cop out because you are too afraid to explain why you made the decision.

Memo to referees who think they may be able to improve:

unless you've had the perfect quarter, don't high five your partner at 1/4-time, in all likelihood its gunna really annoy one of the coaches;

don't form a referees scrum and chant together - "i'm blind, I'm deaf, I wanna be a ref" - its happened, and it only confirms our suspicions;

if you stop the game to talk to one coach, call the other one over, that way you wont get blasted when the next call, rightly or wrongly, goes to the coach you just had a conversation with, it also makes a coach less likely to be personal in his/her attacks;

you dont have a quota of calls to make - telling somebody to tuck their singlet in for the 5th time isnt a substitute for calling a travel that led to a score;

at some stage let me know why the players all walk to the referees to shake their hands (because now they're scared if they dont they'll get smashed next time) but when an Assistant Coach asks for a clarification during a stoppage they can't be spoken to;

forget there's even such a thing as a referee's evaluator - they're two-faced. They'll tell us you did everything right and then tear strips off you;

occasionally ask a coach 'what did you see?' - it reminds us there are two sides but still gives us a chance to put our view forward.

And I'll promise to try and work better with referees of you'll promise to try and work better with me. Deal?

Ankles- So basically, don't try to have fun during the game, don't work as a team and support each other, and if you have ever read the RULE BOOK, it specifically states that the assitant coach IS NOT ALLOWED to approach a referee.

Callisto 11 - by all means have fun. BUT when you dont get the basics right you look like a) you dont care or b) you dont have a clue.

You're not a player - you're supposed to be controlling the game. The best referees have fun and can have a laugh with players AFTER they have earnt the players' respect by getting it right most of the time. It's about priorities. How do you feel when you walk into a shop and the shop assistants are having a laugh amongst themselves while you're not being served?

So the RULE BOOK says SPECIFICALLY that the Assistant Coach can't approach the referee - fair enough. Doesn't the rule book also SPECIFICALLY state that the first grounded foot becomes the pivot foot and should that foot be lifted and re-grounded its a travel. So why not so pedantic with that RULE? Any contact on the shooter mut be called - unless you're a big when its open slather, particularly on the body. They're all rules, why choose to enforce that one so steadfastly.

By all means work as a team - make the same calls, apply the same standards, don't call a foul from halfway when the play happens under the basket and your 'team-mate' is standing next to the play (btw - I don't think that's teamwork, that's a cop-out but don't make the call on one play and then not on the next on the basis that its 'his' call).

We all want good refereeing. We're all on the same side.

Tonight at mars i saw many cases of referee abuse, which really makes me wonder why people are so pathetic? I will highlight two different scenarios here.

First game of the night, it was an under 12's div 1 game, which had only had one referee on the game due to various reasons i'm unaware of. Now for any ref to need to ref it solo is hard enough, but on an under 12's game when they are not entirely skilled, it makes things more difficult. The one coach, from team A, was a very vocal coach who liked to complain.
Her first attempt at communicating with the referee was by screaming 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 at the top of her lungs, which was easily heard across the stadium. Obviously she was after the referee to call the 3 in the key, which may or may not have been there. However when the referee put up the hand to say i heard you, she continued going shortly after. At the time out or quarter time, she approached the referee, and started blaming him for not being able to see what she wanted. She spoke in a very demanding and derogatory manner and was quite disrespectful. From what i could see the referee spoke in a calm manner and accepted what she had to say.

The game continued, however later in the game. The coach asked the referee to watch if the other team was playing a zone (it didnt look like it) When the referee said that he will keep an eye on it, she aggressively said that it was completely obvious and he should of seen it. During a time out later in the game, the referee told her that he could not see it although he would keep an eye out for it, instead of accepting this, she began to argue with him about it being completely obvious and that he needed to see it.

Now these two examples while may not seem like referee abuse, they actually are. This young man, an aba referee was doing the game by himself, which is not easy was clearly trying his hardest and i believe tried to be well mannered at all times, however when i coach continually pesters the referee, expecting the world of him and gets frustrated at him for not seeing the way she did, i believe there is something wrong with that.

Refereeing is not an easy job, you have to be a quick thinker, fit enough to run 4 games in a night and be able to control yourself when all you want to do is tell a parent or coach where to go. It is three times as hard when you are doing the game by yourself, you have everything to think about, all ten players, both coaches, the scorers, the yelling parents.

It is unacceptable for a coach to continually abuse a referee (especially when it is a solo) who obviously cares about the game and is doing everything he can to make the game as good as possible.

The worst thing is, after the game, which ended in a draw, the coach walked over to the referee and instead of shaking hands and saying thank you, looked at him, shook her head and said "embarrassing" Now that kind of behavior is completely unacceptable. Not only was her attitude wrong, it rubbed off on the young kids as they were complaining, yelling and even swearing at the referee as well.


I am not being bias here at all, i believe that refereeing has a long way to go, especially with the numbers. However this kind of attitude from a coach in an under 12 game is simply not acceptable.

It is unfair to generalize all referees with a few that may not care about the game, because i know that there are some great people out there, giving up three-four nights a work to referee YOUR games, they get paid very little to receive a lot of abuse. A lot of referees are now thinking, is it really worth it?

When there is a even larger lack of referees in this state, do not look at the referee education as being the problem, look at the cause of why these referees are giving it up. Because of the constant abuse they get week in and week out by trying to give something back to the game they love.

If you don't want a ref on your game, tell them and see how much you enjoy the game without any referees.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this but please, keep it sensible.

Someone was riding the refs in an under 12 match? Wow, they've really missed the point about what junior sport is meant for. What a tosser.

TC2 - there was only the one ref on the game, which to me makes it worse.

Anon - It was a very close game and i believe if a tech was given it would have ruined the game, not all ref's like giving out tech fouls although i do believe she deserved one. Also when she said embarrassing, she looked straight into the refs eyes and said it, so there was no way she was talking about her teams performance.

Well that coach must feel really proud of herself this morning, its coaches like her that make it bad for the rest

Anon 030 i think you will find this was actually a norwood team

Sorry Anon, i did misunderstand you!

I agree with what your saying on both aspects, about the way sturt run the program but also about the way to prove it is a zone.

can some of you Anons use the name suggestion under the "Name" box?It says this:Random name suggestion for anonymous posters: Mimas 67

To Outsider and anonymous, I was also at that game on friday night. You cannot have only 1 ref in any basketball game I was so disapointed that again there was only one ref. This is becoming a joke. There were so many things missed in that game it was a waste of time. As for the out come, its probably the worst Ive seen the norwood boys play and they were still able to get a draw.As for not entirely skilled, maybe in your club but the norwood boys would have to be some of the most skillful for their age. Perhaps thats why they were STATE CHAMPS! Woodville were running a zone, I think thats not allowed in under 12's and should have been picked up by the ref. A refs job is hard and only having one ref is no excuse for doing a poor job. A coach shouldn't have to count out loud 1,2,3,4,5 at the top of her lungs if a ref is doing his job! 3sec in the key was only called once for the entire game when it should be picked up more when you pitch a tent there. I am not going to waste any more time complaining about the ref for that game, the real problem was their was only 1.As for the kids swearing at the ref,you are kidding right! That has to be the biggest load of crap I have heard yet.What a lie! and for the coaches behaviour, I would also be very disapointed with only one ref three times in a row. I know the coach was probably more annoyed that her boys didnt perform well in a game that was poorly supervised. As for You Anonymous, you weren't at the game so you shouln't be so quick to make up your mind.looked like a zone to me.I can only assume you are involded with perhaps a loosing under 12 team, not sure. Because at the classics the boys only lost one game. They didnt get a chance to play the team who came first or second.They never underperformed, the team that came second has NEVER beaten them so I dont know what you are on about. They have never lost a game in the regular season and yes did I mention they were the state champs, who are still on the top of the ladder!! The coach is not living with a ref you tool.The pressure of recruiting a good team of players BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH. Sturt does have a good training method, they manage to train really good robots which wins a lot of games(not taking anything away from the sturt club they are always the team to beat and guide your perfomance against, just not in under 12's), but I would take a high level of ball skills and the ability to improvise in any situation any day. Perhaps thats why the boys keep beating them. I also love KARMA.As for the norwood approach if you are such an expert maybe you can explain to me exacly what that is? The way I see it it involves ball skills, fun and enjoyment, because that was my son has learnt since he has been there. I know this wasn't all on topic, but I cant believe that crap some of you have posted, especially when you obviously dont know what you are talking about

Mike....you're a dickhead. It's friggen under 12's, you're bagging the refs, the system, the other teams, and pumping up your own kids. You are Ugly Parent Syndrome personified and you are more of a problem with youth sport today than any umpire will ever be.

1 referee - 10 players. I think 3 seconds in the key would be the first rule thrown out and maybe observing the play and maintaining a presence on the contact would be the priority.

Amazing how many people would have sat there and watched this game with 1 referee. I don't know who the referee was but it is stated he referees ABA. Well that was nice of all those very concerned spectators to help out and lend a whistle to give the guy a partner.

Instead the super heros come on here and complain about it. Most referees started refereeing because there was a demand for someone to step up and have a go. The brave step up, the cowards log in and complain about the job they were to scared to do.

Lets start with you anonymous,Its not my problem that there was only one ref, I dont believe abusing ref's is excepable and yes I do believe there should have been 2 ref's. Court 1 and 2 had only 1 ref and court 3 had 1 ref plus the court supervisor. Shouldn't his job be to supervise? I have encouraged my child to take up refing as soon as he is old enough so he can get a better undestanding of both the game and what the ref's have to go through. All I want is to go to watch my children play sport and enjoy it. The refing shortage that there appears to be is not my problem. I pay all my fees inc money to watch my own son play sport. dosn't that money go towards paying ref's? I expect that 2 ref's will show up not 1. As for picking up 3sec in the key and teams running a zone that is there job idiot!I think the ref on friday night did the best he could do, but how can get simple side ball calls right from the other side of the court.Parents like me, you know nothing about me. you are quite quick to bag the coach, who gives up her time because she likes to teach kids. She doesnt get payed poorly SHE DOESN'T GET PAID
To the next anonymous, To me state success is important. all the teams played it out to find out who was the best. AS I said in the nationals not all teams got to play each other.Going to melbourne and only losing 1 game was a great performance. As for sturt being the best team, I think we have beaten them 6 times this year. Will sturt win the u12's grand final? I dont know. as I said in my last post sturt is always the team to beat. They always play a high level and know my son looks forward to the competition.

FM You talk about abuse! I dont think I am the one that has the prolemlem there.I am not bagging the ref's or other teams. I am bagging the system When I wrote the ref did a poor job I meant that every ref on a game by himself would also do the same. You cant tell me a single ref can do as good a job as 2. If its to hard to get 2 refs to a game them something needs to change. Is it wrong to expect 2 ref's at a game? You also dont know me, so dont judge. I have judged no one and bagged no teams. Sounds like you are the angry one. Maybe more clubs should encouage the older kids pehaps U14 and up to start to become ref's. Dont know if this is a solution or not. But I will certainly encourage my son in that direction.I saw a person(not just a parent) on saturday walk up to the ref's and demand her child be allowed to come back on the court after she recieved her 5th foul. She continued to say that if the child was not allowed back on the court, the team would forfeit. Thats the sort of behaviour that shouldn't be allowed.
It seems to be all ok with all of you anonymouses to bag parents and coaches, but not ref's Maybe there's the problem. maybe everyone it at fault. I know i am not perfect, how about you??

To Anonymous,
I have no imfany. unlike you I have no problem with people knowing who I am. And you are right is is not my problem. Cant I go to a game and enjoy it. Why do I need to solve the problems of the world. I am sure there are people who get paid for that. I know I keep paying money each week, I am sure it is going somewhere?? As for the coaches behaviour I saw frustration and disapointment again as refing requirements were not met. I had no problem with her behaviour. I was an umpire for my sport as a young child. I never liked the abuse but was always able to do my job.Knowing that the abuse was never personal.This is what I was taught and this is what I will teach my childen if they are interested in becoming an umpire. They will need to be able do deal with all of these issues. Would I be upset? That depaends on how they handled themselves.No one would like to see there children yelled at but if they handled themselves in a professional manner I would be proud.I am sure if the ref had a problem with the coaches behaviour, he would have acted accordingly. I dont really know the solution for this problem, all codes of sport both social and professional will encounter these issues. Should anyone have the right to open their mouth and say anything.I believe emotional responses in both coaches and spectators is very important for the game. I dont believe that shaking your head or disagreeing with ref's should be not allowed. I think its good to ask questions. I also believe its the swearing abuse and threatening behaviour that shouldnt be tolarated. I didnt see this at fridays game. The reason I posted my first letter is I couldnt believe the abuse directed towards the coach. I never follow anyone blindly, I just saw differnt problems at fridays game than you.I will be honest, I read the referee abuse letter again and I think everybody including ref's need to take note. I was very frustrated again on friday only seeing one ref. This is a step that needs to be addressed. If you want spectators to respect the descision of the ref, you must first admit that it takes more than one ref to umpire a district game of basketball. This alone will make a big impact on my attitude. I must have been lucky so far, I havn't seen any cases of ref abuse that I would seems to be a big issue. I think most parents would stand up for a young child or green shirt that was being abused. And by abuse I dont mean disagreeing with a descision.

How about BSA starts refunding money to teamswhen they don't provide 2 refs.

That way we might see some changes in their poor referee organization.

Poor referee organization?

I do not see how it is BSA's fault if they do not have enough referee's to cover all hundred and something games or a referee pulls out sick at the very last minute.

Anonymous,if thats what the code of conduct says then guilty as charged. I think at times the word abuse is sometimes incorrecly used. My definition of abuse and your is quite different.


anonymous
(again there seems to be so many people with the same name) Has the cout rulled? Is cries of How long ref and Foul going to be out lawed, considered abuse? Because in that case I am as guilty as charged and await my punishment. As for the last comment, it would be nice to see two ref's at all games idiot! Not sure why you have such a problem understanding this, its not really that difficult.2 ref's seem to do a better job than 1.(ah der!)As for you yelling at you team, whatever float ya boat! Iam sure it would only include such frases as "Go Team" or "you can do it" or maybe that classic 'Defence cha cha cha" It seems to be the opinion of many that under 12's has no importance? I am sure it did when you kid played. I think you missing the point a little. lets all be sarcastic shall we, because that always helps.

Charon35, I like your style! sound like a good idea. Nothling like getting what you pay for. I might go to work tomorrow. start a job that requires 2 people, send one home and then do a half ass job but charge the customer the full price. Do you think they would be happy?

outsider is it BASA that sorts out the refs? Is it BASA that takes all the money at the door? Then that makes them responsible, pehaps writing them a letter isnt a silly idea.

"I might go to work tomorrow. start a job that requires 2 people, send one home and then do a half ass job but charge the customer the full price. Do you think they would be happy?"

How about ...

"I might go to work tomorrow. start a job that requires 2 people, but because we dont pay enough, or the work is pretty crap or because the boss is an idiot or because the customers always abuse us I can't get anyone else so I'll do the job of 2 people alone and do the best and still get abused, but I know the customers won't be happy but I'll give it a shot"

I think that would be a lot fairer to the one referee you had.

in response to friday nights game i was on the score bench closer than probably any of you and able to hear the coach in question very clearly. All i heard was a passionate coach wanting her team to be treated fairly and for the rules to be properly followed not too much to ask i think. ABUSE!!! the only abuse im hearing is that of you(apart from mike35-50 and charon35)attacking a coaches morality, living arrangements and coaching ability. How dare you! Getting you facts straight might be a good idea. Why is is it that when a team comes out and is undefeated for two seasons we have anonymous people writing this rubbish sounds to me like sour grapes, we hear that they are only under 12's but that doesnt stop you from complaining. Im sure if it was another team they too would be head hunted. Not fair or just to attack a ref in public so lets be anonymous and attack a coach on line what a wonderful example you are setting. One ref per game is unacceptable you want spectator conduct to improve then dont put refs in a position where they cant ref the game adequately that game was very fast and too much was missed and believe me the other team felt exactly the same. I have been to hundreds of games and scored my fair share and believe me there is not one coach who has not yelled out, pointed the finger at and approached the ref on court at some point again singling out 1 coach sounds to me like someone doesnt like loosing. Anonymous for someone who wasnt even at the game you dont have a spectator problem or a ref problem you have a norwood problem and you need to get over yourself they are winning and they are doing it well thanks to the coach and boys dedication to the game but most off all their love of the game.

To Pallas, thats pretty funny. But when I go to work I dont complain about it,
I dont complain how much money I make, customers can always be abusive
(depending what you do)and if I do do the job well there is no room for abuse.
Even if it is a two person job. This inst about the ref we had, he did a good job,
but he cant be in 2 places at once. This has never been about the ref,
its all about the organisation behind this.

So can I just clarify something completely unrelated to the specific game?

It seems there is a general consensus here (at least on the part of those alleging abuse of referees) that BSA bears no resposnibility for either the provision of an adequate number of referees nor ensuring the safety of either their players or their employees (the referees).

It seems to me there is a contractual relationship between BSA and their players. This implies that they agree to provide a safe environment. Perhaps the Code of Conduct is a step in this direction. Just as there is a contractual relationship between BSA and their employees.

What happens to money saved when three games pay only one referee? Is it directed to improving referee training or recruiting? Is the lone referee compensated for having to go solo? Or does it simply go to consolidated revenue and make the managers' monthly financial reports to the Board look better?

Nobody who has seen any of my previous posts would be surprised to learn I think refereeing has enormous room for improvement. But by and large, so too does sports administration. Most sports administrators are happy to trot out the 'we have to run this like a business line' when justifying fees, rep levies and raffles but are most reluctant to be held to business-like standards of customer service and product delivery.

Reluctantly I agree with Mike that a 'consumer' is entitled to expect their 'product' to be delivered. If there is a sub-standard product in the market it generally gains market share by reducing its price - unless of course its a monopoly - like sport!!

Or is it just me? It seems we hold all in the sport to professional standards, particularly on this thread, players and coaches (none of whom are paid - at least at U12 level to the best of my knowledge). Yet those that are actually paid (where the vast majority of our fees go) are held to weekend sports standards.

Anonymous - me thinks that rose coloured glasses i do not have but feel free to pass yours around and my hearing is perfect i heard the counting and if he wasnt on his own he may have been able to do adhere to all the rules of the game. i was not complaining about the 1 ref i stated that it was unacceptable to expect them to do the job on their own he did what he could but things were missed obviously not hindering the team you were supporting and if the tables were turned im sure your post would be completely different. Any age group any game any venue should have 2 refs its a duty of care to those kids. I was under the impression this site was for people to have free speech and give their opionions mature ones at that, not to go get on here and bag(abuse) coaches they dont like. (abuse) being the word that you like to use all so freely when it suits. Finally to the norwood boys who didnt play well congratulations still no loss for this season

Ankles, I have gone back and looked at your posts. I dont know why you Reluctantly agree but i'll take it anyway. I do agree with what you are saying in regard to the fault be equally shared among player coaches and refs. I believe things would work out alot better if all the above tried to work together rather than apart.I have seen games(not at mars) change once one coach have approached the refs.I am not sure what the coaches have said but is has changed the way the ref's have done their job. Nobody likes to see this. I think coaches should be able to approach refs in time outs and breaks, but both coaches. It certainly looks a lot better from a spectators point of view. I have seen court supervisors spend the entire game sitting among the fans of one team. This also looks bad.These simple things make a big difference. Its not only the fans fault or the coaches but the refs also need to except some responsibility.
The consumer is intitled to what he or she paid for. In normal business, If I didnt get what I paid for I would go elsewhere.BSA in a business I asume, if my business had a need for more staff, I would recruit or advertise so then I could supply the best service possible. I wouldnt try to blame other areas for my failure. Common sense in these situations will bring harmony, this will also leave fans happy when they leave stadiums. You will never get rid of people being disapointed with descissions and yelling out various thing at refs and also players, but it is a far cry from abuse.A ref with good training should be able to difuse most situations. Everyone knows how to push people's buttons and how to avoid conflict. This is best achieved with 2 ref's and the right attitude.

*group hug*

#bash BSA

-QUIT

The fact that there is only one referee is BSAs problem, but with that being said there currently is not enough referees to cover all the games. As I previously stated, there have been a large numbers of referees recruited over the past 12 month but they are not to the standard of district basketball. It's the lesser of two evils, do we put an under qualified referee on the game just so it looks good with two referees who potentially will see more, but due to inexperience may make mistakes which impact the game, or do we have one referee who obviously can't see everything? Did anyone volunteer to help this one referee on the game? Has anyone for this weeks games spoken to BSA to see if they can help out in anyway? Did the under 12 coach offer to referee later in the night to help reduce the solos? We are all so quick to finger point, but the cold hard FACT is that there is not enough referees to cover all of the rostered games, regardless of everything and anything else, there IS NOT enough referees to cover all games!!! Like all 'consumers' you have a basic right to say I'm not happy with that product, I'm not going to buy it. So next time you have a solo, there are two choices, either help to be a part of that solution, or don't 'buy' the product. If anyone has a magical answer to the referee shortage, please feel free to enlighten everyone, because like I have stated already, at the moment there are NOT enough referees to cover ALL games!!!

Oh great, that last comment ain't gonna help!

Another anonymous quick to form the wrong opinion. Never been unemployed in my life.How about you? There seems to more abuse on this site towards people, clubs and coaches than there is ref's. I dont think zero tolarence is the way to go. You might find that someone making a comment to another person sitting next to them is overheard by a near by ref and action is taken. Everone is quick to lay blame, its the crowd, its the coaches. But how about the refs. Maybe they need a code of conduct update. I have seen ref's give one team high 5's and hugs after a game, letting them know how good they did. Ive seen a ref go hard on an under 10's girls team because he didn't like the coach. A ref cannot make a descision that will please everybody. But that is not his problem, he is there to do a job. Never had this problem when I played sport as a kid, the abuse was always there we just chose to get on with the game.
Always look at you own behaviour before blaming others. I know I've done things in the past I shouldn't have, I will certainly make an effort in this area,I hope everybody can. this includes ref's. Who judges and takes action when a ref has bad conduct?

as for the coment about someone standing up and helping the ref on last friday night at mars. I believe there was a ref in the crown who was asked to help. But he declined.

Interesting that there is so many replies sniping about refs, coaches, players, other posters etc but nowhere has anyone come up with a suggestion to fix the issue. Sure there have been comments of BSA should be held resposible for this, they cant do that, we should ge a refund but no positive suggestions as to how we can get more refs available to control games.

Unfortunately it seems there are always plenty of people happy to sit back and criticise but not willing to see the big picture and actually help be part of the solution to the problem moving forward.

Statman,

Thats just it. BSA has sat on their hands and dome nothing for the last 5 years but employ people who have not come up with a solution.

BSA make ALL the money from the competition, it is their responsibility to come up with a colution or the club should just pull out and run their own competition and then the clubs would be responsible and we might see some changes.

Not a bad idea, perhaps the clubs could do a better job than BSA. Then any profits would stay with the clubs. I am sure the clubs cound implement a program for the youth of basketball to take up ref courses.Players would then certainly get an understanding of what is required to be a good fair ref.Most of the ref's now are affiliated with one club or another, you can tell by the way they do thier job sometimes. The clubs already organise scorers, coaches and players why not refs? Bit hard to complain about the refs when 1 is yours! You say that ref's get upset when they are abused, I am sure coaches feel the same way. If you keep abuse them we wont need any refs.

anon,

Yes,the ref missed the call because there was only 1 ref.

But there was only 1 ref because BSA haven't done anything to improve and recruit referees for the last 5 years.

Infact over this time we have less refs who are at a worse standard and participants are getting more and more sick and tired of the decrease standard of the level.

We have also seen a decrease in participants because of the poor quailty that is served up week in week out.

This is because rather than become accountable, the referee system is now less accountable and placing blame on the result of poor refereeing rather than doing any development.

Anon,
if its not the ref's job than whose is it? In under 12's you are not allowed to play a zone, does this mean that all under 12's can start doing this because its nobody's job to rule on this. I know in the past Ive seen under 10's and 12's being called for a zone when they are running split line D.This was always mentioned by the opposing coach. I have seen parents in the crowd yell out how long for a back court violation, once the ref has heard this it has reminded them to start counting.Sometimes this is helpfull. This was an ABA ref I think someone mentioned, surely his not that easily distracted. But I am sure 2 ref's would have spotted these calls. What do you shink would happen if there was only 1 ref for the ABA grand final this weekend. Would that be acceptable????

Is that what I am doing, twisting people's words.HMMMM! Was it a zone? not sure. Maybe it was. Not up to me to decide. I didn't complain about this on the night either. I did see players cut with no defenders following them.Did the norwood boys more the ball quickly? No. Did they play well? No. In the grand scheme of things I dont really care if woodville played a zone or not. That is not really the problem. Couldn't get the court supervisor as the last person posted he was refing also. I thing you are missing the point. 1 ref is not ENOUGH!

I'm all for refs and their supervisors to be held accountable for their actions and poor performances, but we're still talking about u/12s here!! And now u/10s? Does anyone really think that showing an 8 year old how to yell out/criticise/abuse/complain to a ref is the best action to take?

Maybe we should take a page out of the Little Athletics book....the kids were dropped off and treated as a day care centre and the clubs were struggling for volunteers...but now, if you have a child involved in the sport you must stay with them and what do you know, volunteer numbers went up..
so put a similar scenario to basketball... perhaps all teams are required to supply a mature person (mum or dad), trained in refereeing by BSA, to referee either a games before their child's game, or after and maybe both to combat the lack of referee numbers at the moment. They could be on stand by for when there are not enough refs for a stadium. And the pay would cover their child's game for the night(plus a snack afterwards). But it would give the parents who sit on the sidelines moaning an insight to the game, and people being proactive rather than reactive!
Its harder to argue with a mature minded person rather than a junior who would not be ready for the current abuse born out of frustration. This would give all games 2 referees until the juniors coming through are equipped enough and mature enough to ref district games, and time for numbers to grow.
BSA can not make people ref..... Guys and Girls, start thinking outside the square....

Maybe the clubs should provide referee's.BSA seem to be doing a pretty poor job at the moment.

I am from a different sporting code, where the umpires dont complain about their treatment. They just get on and do their job. Seems to me the the officials and some supporters in your sport need to toughen up a little. Yelling at umpires is an Aussie pass time, you are never going to change that. Please dont go to the footy, you wont survive.

anon 286477
Referees, other than ABL refs, are paid from takings at the door. Clubs pay for ABL refs... and this discussion was about juniors, and referee abuse... I was just offering a suggestion which is more than you have offered..

personally i like the idea offered by "Just A Thought" complain all you want but its seems the most suitable option that has even been remotely close to possible that has been suggested here

After reading all the above posts, I think some of these expert mum and dads should put on a Reffs top and go and umpire a few games and see how much abuse they can handle. Yes the reffs do get paid (not much) so this is thier work place and how would you like someone come into your work place thinking they know more than you and yelling abuse at you and telling you how crap you are. (And no i am not a reff as i would not do it for all the tea in china, and would get suspended for belting some loud mouth on the side lines)If you realy have any probs with the reffs take it up through BSA having a cry on here wont change a thing or change the result of the last game

thankyou enjoy the game refs have been thinking this for years however only between ourselves. but it is exactly right deal with bsa and if you dont like it let the club deal with them but it is your complaint so for any possibly effect i would suggest you talk to bsa directly yourself

If BSA had done a half decent job of umpire education there wouldn't be as much abuse.

People are sick and tired of having 1 ref. (this has been going on for ages)

People are tired of referee attitudes. (lack of effort is common place)

People are voicing their disaproval because BSA have done nothing to improve the standard, while the refs themselves have continually gone on about what a good job they are doing and telling all lower standard refs they are great and dont listen to criticism because they are fantastic.

All this letter has done is prove that BSA have no idea how to improve the standard of elite level refereeing and want the entire sport to be a non-elite competition where everyone is happy.

And all they are gettting is a lower standard and placing blame on the result of their inactivity.

Make NBL refs, referee ABL games.

Make ABL refs mentor Friday night and Tuesday night refs.

Stop telling refs they are fantastic and let them know that they have a lot of work to do.

Stop allow refs to act and behave poorly, and hold them accoutable for their behaviour.

Some associations have rules where if the rostered referees are not available, than each team must provide a referee ( badge or not) before the game can start. Generally the stadium manager then sends those "volunteers" across to another court.

There was ( very old , early 80's) NSW case law where a decision was made in favour of a plaintiff where the Basketball association was held liable for a player injury because their court manager allowed a game to be officiated by only one person. By definition , basketball games requires 2 referees to be a basketball game, not necessarily both badged, but at least 2 adults if not accredited. ( interesting because the judgement indicated that an untrained, un-badged adult was ok to officiate and cover the Duty of care , but a trained badged referee, who was not badged to the required level - say ABA - would not be seen as fulfilling the associations duty of care. )

If the parents and spectators who are so concerned in this thread had simply put their hand up to go and referee one of the other u12 games, then their little darlings may have had 2 badge referees, while the other game could have received the full benefit of their own expert refereeing skills.

But they are clearly far too ( something ??- pick a word) to have either thought of or done that.

In social junior grades in NSW, I've actually handed my team over to another club coach and refereed the other game to free up a ref for my team, not that big a deal.

Charon

current NBL refs do umpire in the ABL

NBL/WNBL Refs mentor ABL refs

ABL refs mentor junior refs, not all feedback is rosy but in this day and age the trend whether it be in track and field coaching, in a year five class room or ref coaching is to give them areas to work on, give them positive feedback on the things they are doing right. If all types of education are going down this road why is basketball wrong in your opinion in training their refs the same way.

Very Old,
You are wise with age and I thank you for taking the time to come down from the mountain.

You have struck some very big nails on the head, but the big one is the litigation. So, lets just say that there's a game that gets completely out of control and ends in someone getting hurt, and that child's parents are some kind of nasty who decide to sue BSA. The first thing that would happen would be the judge would ask "Why was there only one ref?" Case dismissed.

Forget about umpiring standard/attitude etc for the minute. You can't please everyone and we can all agree to disagree about standards and competencies. Forget about what BSA should or shouldn't do, I think we all agree BSA could do a lot of things better than they do. A common issue that crops up is games with only one ref. Anyone who says the standard of reffing is the same with one ref as two needs a good look at themselves.

Now, there are times when the scheduled ref can't make it (sick, caught in traffic, can't find glasses etc) and times when they just can't get refs, but the Stadium Manager should have a backup plan. Perhaps that is the part of solution we should focus on first.

Is there a procedure for getting refs at short notice? Do stadiums need a supply of green shirts for volunteers?

Very Old, I come to the basketball to watch my childred play. Why should I go and ref a different game. I just paid money at the door for the 2 ref's. BSA are responsible, dont want to here excuses. just want results. I pay enough money everyweek and expect the basic requirments and duty of care of 2 ref's should be met.Which leads to the topic of ref abuse. Maybe then coaches fans and players wont be so angry each week.

All good points Jack, Very Old. BUT methinks we need a paradigm shift to fix this problem. From my days as a netball dad (at the mercy of the netball nazi's/fat controllers depending on your historical bent) they come at it from a different perspective.

All teams are required to perform duty at a young age (and an old age if they are in the lower grades). I still remember walking with my 10-year-old on the sidelines of an U8's game and having to 'gently' remind some of the parents they were not only watching an 7 year-olds, the person they having a go at was 10, and more importantly, they were wrong! None of those referees are paid yet they manage to provide two for every game (and yes, they roster spares to be standing by at the clubhouse for when somebody doesn't show up).

The netball officials brook no argument with their officials - gee, you can be suspended for having your shirt untucked I'm sure! But for mine that carries a lot more weight when the person they are defending isn't putting their hand out for money and looking like they'd rather be at the dentist. One game, get out of there. Not four games a night for $60 (or whatever the going rate is).

The umpires they do have who progress are genuinely passionate about it - they have to be - there's nothing else in it for them.

Maybe if we are all volunteers we'll work together better? A lot easier to ask someobdy to referee a game as a fill-in too if nobody is getting paid?

Good luck getting your $6 back!!

Jack Toft's question is a valid one. Why don't stadiums have backup solutions when referee's pull out late notice?

There are two things that need to happen to address the issue of referee's bailing out on their scheduled matches:

1. Create a culture within the referee body that is one of reliability and teamwork.

At my local club in Victoria, there is a fantastic atmosphere within the referee ranks. All of the refs know each other, and they've all been through enough ref training and other activities together that they have RESPECT for each other and their role within the basketball framework. They know that when they pick up the phone and send a text to their coordinator to bail out on a scheduled match, they are letting their team down.

Because of the healthy ref atmosphere around the club, referee's are also more then willing to come and fill in at short notice. Coordinators know that if they are desperate, they can call up a ref who will be more then willing to help out the team. Referee's are bound to be surly about their job and unwilling to help out covering matches when there is not a good atmosphere within the referee body!

2. TRAIN MORE REFEREES.

Without enough referees, there is no way in hell that anything will ever change. More referees means more people who might be able to fill in for a match. More referees means that BSA can tell unreliable refs that they need to pull their socks up, otherwise they won't even get scheduled onto games at all!

If a club can have enough referees to cover the available shifts, and has a good enough rapport with the referee body to be able to con refs into filling in at short notice, then things should improve.

Annonymous, You are clearly good at spotting fouls so perhaps you should become a ref? It sounds like you had a bad game and your team lost. Umpires often in NBL games tell players and coaches to be quiet, so you probably shouldn't lose sleep over it.

easy soloution here - short notice ref postings.

> 24 hrs short notice call in = double payment

less than 6 hrs notice = triple match payments

that will get them coming