Anonymous
Years ago

BSA By-laws: Finals eligibilty

Wondering what people think about the current interpretation on the by-laws where a player can play the whole season yet not be eligible for finals in any division.

For example a player plays most of the season in Div 4 then is brought up to Div 3 for the last few games of the season to cover injuries. The first part of the by-law states that they are ineligible for Div 3 as they have not played 40% of the Div 3 games. The last part states that they are ineligible for finals in all but Div 3 as they played in that Div in the last 3 rounds. My logic says that they should be eligible for Div 3 under these rules, but BSA's logic is obviously different to mine.

Does this seem like fair treatment for someone who has forked out $100's of dollars to BSA during the season and the team that works so hard to get to finals?

Topic #23744 | Report this topic


36  
Years ago

By laws are to be followed - cope it sweet,
must have know this was the case everybody else does.

Reply #288409 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

If you play the majority of games in a particular division, I see noreason why they should be allowed to play final in another division. The 40% rule has cought a number of teams out this season, so be it however.

Reply #288412 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Unfair to play finals if you havent qualified. Happens in all divisions.

Reply #288421 | Report this post


willis  
Years ago

stops teams from stacking teams that can be in finals, unfortunately it will catch the unwary.

Reply #288427 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

In the past as a coach I have had injuries occur in teams of higher divisions that I coached and players had to be brought up from my team, so I pulled up some players from the division bellow mine... The first thing we did as a club was to see whether these players would qualify for finals but they fell two games short... So we got the medical certificates from the injured players and the club filed in an application for an exemption to BSA which was granted...

So my response to you is always be organised and looking ahead of time, then take early and an appropriate course of action with BSA through your club and you will be fine...

Reply #288428 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Sounds like someone didn't know the rule and is trying to get public support.

End of the day your team/club made the mistake not BSA.

Reply #288430 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Well anon I am aware of a different situation and BSA has got it wrong by not strictly adhering to the By-Laws and the definitions contained within. Now we have a team and a player penalised for following the rules!!

Reply #288434 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Any risk of playing ineligible players should be cleared up with BSA prior to the game in question.
Simple.

If I were a coach that would be the first thing I would do!

Reply #288440 | Report this post


Charon 91  
Years ago

But if you are the Program Manager, you can have the people who sit on the competition committee give you permission to have an ineligible player in your team for the finals.

Especially, when every other situation where the exact same kind of exemption has been requested, it has been denied.

Reply #288445 | Report this post


kerfuffle  
Years ago

I think the initial post didnt quite make it clear where the unfairness lies.

Not only is the player in that scenario not elligible for Div 3 finals, because of not playing the required 40% in that division, they are not elligible for Div 4 finals, even though they have played the required 40% in that division because of playing games in the last 3 rounds in Div 3.

This has left a player (possibly players) who have played the required games in a division but are inelligible to play ANY finals in ANY division. This isnt "stacking", this isnt a club who have 3 teams across multiple divisons with only 1 team qualifiying for finals so trying to pull together the best group from all 3 teams to get the best for the 1 team. This is a club with a player who is part of a team, has been for a majority of the season who is not allowed to play ANY finals.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

There was no confusion.

We understand the point we just don't accept BSA are at fault. The by-laws are there and the club should have known moving the player up would make him ineligible for finals.

As has been mentioned already, if this was done to cover an injury then an exemption request should have been submitted at the time.

Your club and the player have been penalized because your club didn't bother to understand the by-laws.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

I was after some feedback on what people thought of the rules, not a bunch of people just saying that they should be followed.

Reply #288453 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Any good club administrator should make it their business to make sure coaches and players know the rules in which they play under. If they dont then dont get upset with the organisation that enforces the rule. If club administrator doesnt understand the rules ask BEFORE a rule is broke. Saves a lot on angst on everyones behalf.

Reply #288460 | Report this post


Anon  
Years ago

My guess is the club was not consulted and the Coach did it off his own back without even considering the consequences till too late!

Reply #288461 | Report this post


annon  
Years ago

I thought you were not allowed to play in 2 divisions on the same night ?

Can someone clarify this as one team did so last week

Reply #288486 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Can only do it in finals and only if the player has qualified for finals in both grades, which was the case. This was confirmed with BSA as well. This is specifically written into the by-laws which are on the BSA site.

Reply #288498 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

So it is possible to play the whole season and be eligible for finals in no divisions, and also possible to play part of the season and be eligible in 2 divisions???

If you play 9 games in div 3 at the start of the season then play 9 in div 4 you qualify for finals in div 3 & 4.

If you play 20 games in div 4 and finish playing a few games in div 3 you are not eligible for any.

Sounds a bit backwards to me.

Reply #288541 | Report this post


kerfuffle  
Years ago

Anon 498 the By-Laws i am reading state that a player is ineligible to play in the major round of Multiple Junior divisions or Age Grades; or Multiple Senior Divisions in Division 2 and below.

Reply #288542 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Can someone who has read the By Laws explain to me the definition of minor round games. In my opinion and in the opinion of other legal work colleagues the minor round definition for certain grades which were split into two divisions during the winter season are the seven games preceding the finals, after the divisions were split, as they are the only seven games which dictate where you finished on the ladder of the division you are playing finals in.

The BSA clarification letter on this is inconsistent with the wording of the By Laws

Reply #288545 | Report this post


498  
Years ago

542, you are correct

A player is ineligible to play in the major round of;
i) Multiple Junior Divisions or Age Grades,
ii) Multiple Senior Divisions in Division 2 and below

I am referring to:

However, a Player, who has qualified under these By-Laws to play in;
iii) One Junior Division major round game and/or
iv) One Senior Division 2 or below major round game and/or
v) One Senior Division 1 major round game
shall be eligible to play in each of these competitions major round games.

Reply #288548 | Report this post


kerfuffle  
Years ago

So i am confused by what junior divisions and what senior divisions play on the same night as annon 486 stated?

I know under 21 play the same night as division 2 so if that's the case is u21 is still classed as juniors because in the By-Laws it states you couldn't play both in the same week/on the same night or something to that effect. Does this rule get chucked for finals?

No wonder there is confusion, i would be surprised if BSA themselves knew how to interpret their own By-Laws. I am glad i am no longer playing because it just looks like a mess to me.

Reply #288550 | Report this post


498  
Years ago

Under 20/21 is junior. Div 2 is senior. So if one qualifies for both by playing 40% then one can play finals in both on the same night, even though this is expressly not allowed during the regular season.

Reply #288553 | Report this post


The Messiah  
Years ago

I agree that the by laws need to be looked at and every situation needs to be considered. In this case in particular I think the player has been extremely hard done by. He has qualified for division 4 by playing the amount stipulated, then let him play! Fair enough if it was the other way around and he qualified for division 3 by playing more than 40% of games, went down to div 4 for a few games then he should be only eligible for div 3. Or if he qualified for by then he should only be eligible for the higher of the 2 divisions. But to not allow him to play either is ridiculous!
I also disagreed on the whole SBL and division 2 situation where even if someone had qualified for finals for division 2, if they started the last game of the SBL season they couldn't play the remaining 5 games of the regular season and had to wait until finals started to play again.
BSA make stupid decisions without consulting clubs. And even when they do consult all of the clubs they make decisions based on their own agenda like this under 23 competition! When teams voted it definitley was not a majority vote in favour for the competition, yet they still went ahead with it. Next season will be even more of a farce than last season. I would like to know how many forfiets there were over the last season and compare that to the previous year. I can guarantee there were more last year!!!

Reply #288633 | Report this post


s_mawds  
Years ago

Charon 91 - are you referring to a couple of new Forestville kids? I know my kid is playing vs Forestville this week in U14s & was wondering if he qualified? I thought they fell a game or two short.

But there wouldn't be any conflict of interest in his coach being the Competition Manager, would there? Anyone know of any other (non injured) players ever getting an exemption like this?

Reply #288637 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

with regard to anon #288545, in the junior news section of www.basketballsa.com.au it specifically states;

"For competitions which have been divided part way through the season (such as the Under 20 Men Division 2/3 and Under 16 Girls Division 3/4 competitions), eligibility is calculated based on the total number of games a team has played across the entire Winter season."

Therefore it is the total number of games the team has played, regardless of the division. Following this statement an example is given

e.g. As an example, a player in the Under 20 Men's Division 3 competition whose team has played 17 games prior to the split and 7 games after that split, is required to play 40% of 24 games, or 10 games, to qualify for finals.

Reply #288641 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Anon,

I know what the letter says but that is not what the By Laws say. They have put that letter out very late in the process when people were relying on the By Laws.

The By Laws refer to minor round games not all games played in the winter season. Look at the definition of minor round games and there is no reference to winter season in totality but to those games only that affect the standing on the Ladder.

I know what BSA meant and that is what is said in the letter but how can clubs manage teams and players if there is nothing but the By Laws to which to refer.

They have got it wrong!!

Reply #288646 | Report this post


Anon  
Years ago

"But there wouldn't be any conflict of interest in his coach being the Competition Manager, would there? Anyone know of any other (non injured) players ever getting an exemption like this?"

You may be wrong as to how many they have played and unless you can get the team sheets you will never know. BUT in saying that it does appear on the surface that the person in question would be held up to a lot of criticism in the multitude of roles in Basketball in South Australia that he holds. Perhaps this "conflict of interest" should be seriously looked at and the roles that he holds so the process's of BSA are seen to be completely transparent to the registered members of BSA.

Reply #288649 | Report this post


Charon 91  
Years ago

s_mawds,

You got it in 1. An u14 boys for the Forestville team doesn't qualify, but has been given an exemption by the very committee the coach sit on.

You will hear all and sundry cry that he doesn't vote and he did get it through himself.

From what I understand he is the only person to have received an exemption with regards to this kind of situation, when other have all failed.

Reply #288650 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I know our club rep removes himself from any vote which impacts our club. Now I am even more disenchanted with the ruling we have received!!!

Reply #288651 | Report this post


s_mawds  
Years ago

Is it also true this kids older brother is playing U16 2s even though he competed at a national championship this year? And I suppose he would have had to get a games played exemption as well?

Interesting. Wonder if it'd fly if they were from any other club?

Reply #288656 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

#686 the games earlier in the season do affect the standing of the said team.

The games earlier in the season decided which pool the team ends up in. Of course those games are considered minor round games.

Another example of a parent/player with blinkers only seeing the rules from their own point of view. No different to those loud mouths who sit in the stands and see what they want to see and abuse referees from a biased point of view.

The minor round is the total games played during the regular season. Before and after any split is made. Deal with it.

Reply #288658 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Anon - you have no idea.

If you can show me which games before the split are on the ladder after the split then I will agree. The games before the split impacted what division you ended up playing in but gave you no credit for where you were placed on the ladder leading into the finals. Only the games after the season impacted the ladder. I'm sorry - I have bounced this off several legal people from work and they agree.

If the games preceding the split did impact the ladder then one or two teams who missed the finals would have ended up making it.

As I have said - I know what the intent probably was but the By Laws, as written, did not reflect this. They got it wrong and they should abide by the rules.

Reply #288663 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

anon # 656 - read the definition of minor round games in the By Laws and you will understand. Don't be blinded by your paradigm as to what is a minor round game

Reply #288664 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

Why more disenchanted? Didn't someone just say "he doesn't vote" either?

Reply #288670 | Report this post


Charon 91  
Years ago

s_mawds,

True as well regardsing the U16 player. And he want into the team that played div 3 over summer even though they were the better Forestville team that are now still in finals. Not just a little suss.

I am sure someone will get on here and still try and tells us plebs that it is all kosher.

Considering all the forfiets and other players denied the chance to play in the finals, I wonder if BSA will actually do anything about it.

They should perhaps document and present all petitions and show how many were accepted. Then we might have some true open and transperent accountability.

Reply #288671 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

My other concern is manipulating of teams over the summer season to guarantee, or at least maximise opportunities, to get two teams into Div 2. Some whispers going around the traps are that people are looking at stacking their teams in Div 2's/3's to give themselves as much chance as possible to get more teams in higher divisions and then in winter put their real Div 1 team in Div 1.

Is there any safeguards against doing this??

Reply #288675 | Report this post


DaddyO  
Years ago

#675 - How would there be any advantage in stacking Div 2s?

The main safeguard is that playing your Div 1 players in Div 3 is likely to put noses out of joint and encourage players to quit or leave the club. More likely that players might be dropped to Div 3 for specific games, particularly in the final phase to ensure a top 2 finish.

Reply #288679 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

There are limited spots for a club having two Div 2 spots in Winter. You need to perform in summer to retain or attain the second spot - hence stacking teams!!

Reply #288687 | Report this post


Charon 91  
Years ago

Not really,

The decisions on who to include are subjective to the compeittion committee. Just need to be in the right clubs.

Considering that the teams being compared don't ever play each other, how much you win by isn't taken into consideration.

Reply #288688 | Report this post


feby  
Years ago

Reply #314384 | Report this post




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