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Years ago

National junior success not translating to seniors

Having read many posts about the Boomers during the world championships, there are a lot of questions being asked about the Senior Mens Program?

It was expected that we would have a few lean years after the Sydney Olympics, however did we expect it to last 10 years. Since 2000 our best results have been 7th at Beijing and 9th in Athens. Our World Championships have been much worse.

In the corresponding period our Under 19 men's team have not finished lower than 5th.

At some point it would be reasonable to expect the Under 19 success to translate to the senior program, yet we still wait. This begs the questions why?

Is the NBL not developing our junior players or have our senior basketball mentors become too dependant on the USA college system. Have we lost our 'traditional' Australian style of basketball and will our talented juniors from the 2009 Under 19 world championships fall behind their opponents in terms of development over the next 5 years?

Instead of being lazy and sledging particular players or coaches either previously or currently involved in the senior team I would appreciate people's considered thoughts as to why it would appear our juniors (other than Bogut) are not kicking on as seniors in the international scene.

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.  
Years ago

excellent topic for discussion

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Anonymous  
Years ago

- lack of regular international competition for our national team.
- outstanding junior talent ID and coaching network

Id suggest that because of the size and structure of basketball in australia we have our sh*t together more so than other countries at the junior level. By the time they get to adulthood then the strength of regular international competition and good coaching kicks in for the other countries. A good example is the US team in the 17 Men worlds. Because of the size of the country they only had athletes from the East Coast in their Team USA.

Our junior systems and coaches are renowned internationally.

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Wam Soosnam  
Years ago

We have held on to older players for way too long, younger players were not given the chance to come through after the world's win in 2003. Blame the previous coaching staff imo

Reply #288495 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

All the Kids go off to college and sit on the bench, should stay in Australia

Reply #288499 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Welcome to 2010. Hint: junior success never ever has translated to seniors. Apart from Ronaldson hitting the 3 in Atlanta and the Sydney 2000 games, the Boomers really have never been close.

Reply #288500 | Report this post


ankles  
Years ago

I've read som interesting theories of late. I'm more involved the women's side of the game but I suspect many of the same theories hold.

We're not getting the best athletes in the country - they go mainly to AFL in this country (at least our body-type athletes). An average AFL player can make a very good living with terrific upside if they 'make' it. An average level basketballer probably has to get a real job, at least for a while, and the upside isn't that great unless they're NBA/Euro dollar good and there's a fair bit of competition for those gigs!

Consequent to that hypothesis - we can't guard anybody one-on-one. Because we're not the best athletes and because at home (and no, we don't get enough international competition) we don't have to guard the best athletes. Who in the current Boomers can guard their best counterpart internationally? Makes it hard to win consistently.

We have done so well in juniors because we have been ahead of the curve in development terms - our AIS has led the way and so we have had basically a two-year preparation cycle for our core groups prior to World's. The rest of the world is catching up and imitating some of the stuff we have been doing. Particularly in Europe but even the yanks ahve realised they don't develop talent well (but they have some pretty good athletes and a weight of numbers). The advent of the 17's will test this preparation theory and so far it holds.

Also, the game changes significantly between juniors and seniors. Its like coaching U12's - teach 'em a press and how to make lay-ups and you're made (you wont win at U18's with that game but you'll win for now). At juniors you can hide a lot of deficiencies with systems and structure but when you go to a level where they can identify and, more importantly exploit, those weaknesses, you get found out.

18 year-olds aren't smart enough to play Patty Mills for the pass when he penetrates - how many times did he get to the rack and throw it away or miss the finish this week?

We also dont seem to have an identity - somebody else mentioned somewhere we tried to out-Euro the Euro's. At juniors we have to play more truly to our character - run and gun, press, dont get caught in a half-court game. At Senior level we seem a little conflicted. I always think you lose when you are the one trying to match-up. We take a team away with four point guards but we dont use them because we are too busy trying to match-up - why not go with all four and the most mobile big and see how they go? Present some match-up problems I suspect.

We cant win the match-up game so we have to challenge their match-ups.

We also have a dis-connect between our junior development programs (the AIS - remember there's still a fairly high attrition rate even with those kids between seniors and juniors) and our senior program. We take 15 kids and smother them with love at the AIS while the others can basically please themselves. Even until this year BA have frowned upon the college route which means they 'lose' those kids for four years before trying to reclaim them. So end up relying on Europe but they tend to take only AIS-caibre kids - so where is the depth coming from?

Many many reasons - not so many answers :)

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MACDUB  
Years ago

The reason why Australia does so well at the junior level is because they are all (or mostly all of them) able to train together everyday thanks to the AIS.

No other country has something like the AIS at the Under 19 level

IMO, the AIS is a huge advantage. If every other under 19 team had an AIS-type structure where their players were able to train together everyday, I dont think we'd be as successful at the Under 19 level.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

there is a huge focus on development at junior leve at the AISl to develop players skills and technique as well as team work.

in the NBA and in certain euroleagues this continues significantly at the pro level where players have one on one sessions with speciality coaches to improve everything from rebounding technique jump shot technique to one on one options.

I think this is largely ignored at pro-level in the NBL and by most of the aussies playing in europe (no where near the attention good NBA players recieve)

look at Bogut..his low post back to the basket game has improved ten-fold and the last 2-3 seasons through expert training not just 80 game season top comp.

there seems a lot of upside with the boomers players but there is still some skill and technique defiencies that should have been ironed out (not least shot selection and rebounding).

Reply #288515 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

You could put a hundred athletes into the AIS and each would improve significantly for the reasons given above BUT if you selected the right 20 in the first place success at senior level would follow.
Basketball in Oz is still controlled by the ethnic groups etc that established the sport here and that has inherent problems

Reply #288525 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

which ethnic groups are they?

The sudanese? The greeks? The croats/serbs/bosnians? Becuase there's a tonne of them running the sport.

You've got to be joking.

Reply #288528 | Report this post


ankles  
Years ago

#525 - I agree with you first sentence and am bewildered by your second.

We do seem to select kids to the AIS based on their ability to contribute to the Gems/Crocs program as oppposed to their long-term viability as an Opal/Boomer.

While that's inevitably part of the process when making these decisions at 15/16 (I still think we should be smart enough to say - mmm - not genuinely big, not exceptionally quick, very mature skill set (not a lot of upside in that area which is the easiest of those three things to teach) - probably a terminal talent, ie, expires at U20 level.

I still think it is imperative that BA build a better net and support system for the currently 'marginalised players' (development camp and state team quality who will be late bloomers for a variety of reasons).

This should be the bread-and-butter of the Underpinning League.

Reply #288529 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

Basketball in Oz is still controlled by the ethnic groups etc that established the sport here
WTF? I can't even think of what ethnic groups are controlling Australian basketball? Did you wander over from a soccer forum or something?

Reply #288533 | Report this post


Ushiro  
Years ago

Isaac - did you forget Boti Nagy, the controller of the Hungarian ethnic Basketball media?

Reply #288537 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

Anon did say 'ethnic groups' and I was trying to think of at least one more...

Reply #288543 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

NBL isn't a development league either. There's pressure to win, there's no "play the kids" type attitude. If you don't win you're in trouble financially more than anything else.

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Anon  
Years ago

Seems to me the junior comp is aimed at developing kids that can win games NOW. Often these kids are early maturers with great confidence and skills but maybe not destined to play basketball. Tall kids are often overlooked because they are slow and and awkward. They often wander off into other sports. My kid was 6'6" at 14 years old and couldn't get a run in the state comp, nor could he get selected for NITP and no interest by state coaches. He spent a lot of time (and we spent a lot of money!) working with an individual coach who worked on his shot thinking that he will probably end up under 7 foot and not big enough to play center in the big league. He attracted some interest from US coaches on a US exposure tour but still little interest in him back home.

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Ushiro  
Years ago

Well Isaac, in your search for another ethnic group that has a big influence on Australian basketball, did you consider the Americans.

Whether as players or coaches, they have certainly made their mark in the past and continue to do so at the present.

Just consider what the ethnic American Coach of the Aussie Boomers achieved in the past week alone!!

Reply #288579 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

If the AIS program is the " bees knees'of world basketball then we should be much higher in the Senior World rankings.Dont kid yourself, there would be hundreds and hundreds of coaches in the US with a better teaching program and skills knowledge than what has been at the AIS.

Reply #288582 | Report this post


hanging round  
Years ago

I agree with the "ethnics" taking over post.
I was apalled when I saw a kid try to header the ball into the ring, then take a dive trying to get a foul shot and have the opposition player red-carded.
Where are we heading - he missed the shot!

Reply #288583 | Report this post


Libertine  
Years ago

rats aren't an ethnic group

Reply #288588 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

1) Our National Junior Team success has never translated to consistent Senior Success in the men. Should it? The women are a different story.

2) Other nations are more talented than we are. Have greater depth of playing and coaching talent. They are more unified and serious about development and about coaching accreditation, about who can coach. Coaching courses are strenuous things. They take a couple of weeks out of their lives to often go to a central location to get their certificates. Lectures, clinics, not just in basketball, but also in physical education, biomechanics, etc. Here, we give a parent a whistle and wish them all the best.

We also get bogged down in the great player makes great coach syndrome.....it's not always the case. Great teachers are great coaches...regardless of what their name is or where they played.

3) A talent like Bogut is once in a generation. That's what our country can produce every 10 to 15 years. One player, two or three at a push, that can be consistently good in the best league in the world and at international tournaments.

4) For where basketball is as a sport in Australia, we do pretty well.

5) The argument that our players go overseas and get better is fine, the talented kids that do go to good colleges are OK, but there are a lot of ordinary colleges with ordinary coaches. Not every division 1 coach is amazing. Not every division 1 program is amazing. There are good division 2 schools.

At the end of the day, in the US system, self-interest over-rides (sometimes) what is best for the kids. Players will get recruited over because there is pressure to win and the price for losing is your job. They're not necessarily about developing talent, they are about winning and if you want to win, you must recruit the best. Simple.

6) The European system is OK - they develop first and they spend time at practice. Every. Single. Day. With the same coach. It does get results. European nations have come along in leaps and bounds. Lithuania, Spain, Greece, France, Germany, Slovenia, Italy, Serbia etc...all have their own problems (no doubt) but they seem to get it together when they wear their national jersey.

7) Our system is a mish-mash right now. Not particularly unified. There's the State/NITP that leads to the AIS where the pathway ends, there's the various high-school competitions that are growing in prominence because they pay coaches handsomely (not very good coaches in some instances) and there's always the representative clubs...that's three or four different masters for each kid. It's wrong. The teaching is inconsistent and the variety of coaches is pretty drastically poor.

The clubs want to win Under 14 Nationals and the Classic and the various Tournaments around the place but there 'aint a heap of emphasis placed purely on development...

8) Now do this to understand why we finished where we did. Count the number of full time administrators our sport has, the guys that count the money and pay imports and manage stadiums, and compare it to the number of well paid full time coaches who are great at what they do....IMO that's it in a nutshell.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Abuse, people just simply walk away, we are the most critical abusive society in the world. Size equals negativity , bogut, longley both copped more abuse as juniors than any other sportsmen in Australia, its a credit to their parents that they even bothered to stay in the sport. Most just simply walk away and get on with life.

Reply #288597 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Hmm, interesting thought, I hear a lot of negativity about Nevill as well.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

good points raised. here in wa i can guarantee that a lot of wabl coaches prefer to win than to develop. heck, as long as a team runs the horns or flex offense perfectly with every cut correctly, who gives a rats ass if they can shoot or finish off.

that is the problem in junior basketball- x's and o's (which are important don't get me wrong- but at a certain time, and you need to know why) above skills and drills.

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