PF - Ballinger, Dowdell
C - DJ, Harris
SF - Holmes, Hill
SG - DeVries, Ng
PG - Carter

Stick a new Aus player in at back up PG, wait till Herbie heals and until then... bring on Mitch Creek.

re: Anon saying Ballinger is 'a mouse on court' - you're the reason I need to block random anons in the cp.

Winder seems to have had another shocker, going 2-10 from the field.

Honestly, I'm getting sick of us taking these players who had great careers in D-League or college but can't consistently produce in the NBL.

Next season I'd like to see the Sixers keep Devries as a sole import and open up the spot to a proven NBL caliber player - perhaps a big man to take some front court load off Balls, and get back to running our offence through him. I think the days of needing 2 high-quality imports to succeed in this league are well and truly over and if we continue signing these untested, unproven college or D League "stars", we'll more often than not be shooting ourselves in the foot.

Starting to agree 'd day'...

I have been firmly in the keep Winder corner all season...starting to think differently tho...I don't care if he doesn't put up 20ppg, he just needs to get more efficient. I can handle the odd 2 for 10 night but not consistantly.

Was just thinking: last season after Chappell then Groves in a space of time, many people were quite vocal about recycled imports and wanted new faces. Now we have a new face, and a few of us would rather just have one import and give up on the other spot. Kinda funny.

Thought I'd list this season's new imports and whether their team's fans would be likely to want them back:

Wilkinson - good preseason, but perhaps not
Blalock - probably not
Freeman - doubt it?
Hudson - still too early?
Clark - still too early?
Ervin - yes, success
Winder - good preseason, but no
Devendorf - doubt it
Campbell - cut already
Maye - cut already
McCullough - doubt it
Dorsey - not playing a big role

You'd really only bet on Ervin being in any sort of demand. I wouldn't be overly excited about any of the others joining the 36ers, would you?

If so, that suggests the strike rate this year is 1 in 12 fresh imports! Quite the gamble.

Say we were to replace Winder, wouldnt right now be the time to do it given we dont have a game for a couple of weeks,

say have a replacement looked at, selected and signed by say wednesday or thursday, in Aus by Saturday, then it gives them a week to train and the admin to get all the clearences done before he plays his first game.

Its also easier to turn around the season currently than it would be if we had a few more losses in a months time.

Just a thought.

TR recently mentioned in another thread that the D-League draft is in a few days so it might be an idea to move soon after that.

The clock is ticking.

Is Tucker an Aussie yet?
Would work really well if he was. Then we could afford to release Winder and Ng and bring in him and say Brown if everyone has their heart set on him.
Play him off the bench, start with Carter, DeVries, Brown, Ballinger and Johnson then have Tucker, Hill, Holmes, Dowdell and Creek off the bench.

Would be nice to have effectively a 4 import roster :D

Brown if everyone has their heart set on him

I don't want any part of Tucker, Aussie or not, he doesn't fit our rebuild plan. If we are cutting players that aren't imports we should only be replacing them with young aussies. Like if a Hugh Greenwood or someone like that was willing to come out then maybe we can consider cutting Ng but no way do we even contemplate cutting Ng for Tucker.

The prospect of signing Tucker reminds me of the Timmons signing years ago. Doesn't really have a future.

Other than a young Aussie, getting a fresh import would mean rolling the dice again and hoping to get a gem. It's a risk but has more of an upside than Tucker. The 36ers would've been in touch with Greenwood during the pre-season. I imagine they're watching Dellavedova too.

BTW, here's a comparison of DeVries to Lisch. If DeVries ups his shooting percentages (and I don't think he's even playing at his best yet), that's a favourable comparison to a returning guard from a championship team.

I never had a problem with Gilchrist last year, I had an issue with Groves and Gilchrist playing at the same time on court.

Essentially you had 2 combo-guards playing the same spot at the same time and neither could run the team because the other was trying to take over.

I'd welcome back JG if he was available; though granted I couldn't honestly say whether he would be interested depending on what so of "feedback" he was given.

JG can stay well away thanks. Another one who thought he was the only guy who could win a game.

These are the questions we should be asking.
- Who recommends these Imports?
- Do we expect too much too soon from them?
- Is the team benefitting from their input?
- How are the other Imports in the league comparing?
- Is cutting anyone after 8 games of anything really good for either club or player?
- If they come in doing what everyone expects of them would they really be coming to pay in the NBL or would they be going to a bigger(better) league?

so, Dec03 - we have to cut someone , otherwise Creek can't play.

I imagine that they'll cut Harris after playing 3minutes - not all of his work was perfect.
He's only as good as Schenscher , who had a lot wrong, too !

who wants a fresh faced import PG who is an undersized natural SG, on a team full of SG's, who barely got on the court in college and had average numbers in the D-league? If Winder was any decent to begin with he would have played in College, started in the D league and averaged more than 2 assist. How hard can it be to get assist in the D-League as a PG? walk it up, pass it off and the ball gets shot. Do it 10 times you should at least get 3 assist.

Imports with a bad resume rarely work, there are a few rare exceptions (Like Balls) but let another club try them out first, if there any good get them later.

Winder was a shooting guard in the D League last year.

vanexel, those guys with the good resumes are playing in other leagues. Look at the list of new imports I gave and see how many could be considered a success in their first NBL year: 1 in 12. This tough-to-find-a-good-import problem is not unique to the 36ers.

Look at Ervin's history before he arrived in the NBL - would you have snapped him up?

Jack of all trades master of none.
Not the guy I want to see running show. Too frenetic, out of control.
Asset seems to be athleticism. Get the ball out of hands, except in transition, and post him up, if the intention is to keep him.
Can't seem him being of any use anywhere else.

Dont worry, clubs in other leagues have the same problems.

Maybe its time to start looking at some European imports who can bring some fundamentals and shooting. Gone are the days of the super-athletic americans who dominate the scoring.

Surely there are some quality Euro's who would love the lifestyle in Oz?

More money and leagues that can pay over in Europe. Likely that the same goes for South Americans.

Could do worse than someone like Lindsay Tait (though I think Cairns might be interested in him) - led a bit of a misfit team over the Pistons in the NZ league grand final.

I think Bruce has the upside but just doesn't seem interested enough or was given lofty expectations by his first NBL salary.

Back on imports, just wondering again about how 11 of 12 players selected and new to the league this year are not really home runs. Exclude Perth and Wollongong if you want (though no one was rating Gruber when they got him) and that leaves seven teams making iffy decisions. These are coaches and GMs, many with some experience, most with loads of contacts and agents and the like - and all seven have struggled to some extent with at least one selection and some with two.

I seem to recall - Farley was pretty good here at HSH and said he love to play here agen.
But sixers said they needed to sign a PG and SF.
Seems Winder is a SG
It might even cross Clarke's mind that he himself is in the wrong step, later on - I just kinda think he'll keep going with Winder DeVries Hill Holmes Ballinger , a whole lot longer.

There's a lot of heat on the fella, but are we expecting too much? Is he beyond redemption, or does he need a tweak?

Well, we do expect a lot from our imports, and the main expectation is scoreboard pressure.

Had a look at the stats and looked at the per minute stats.

FGA: Leader. He puts up more FGA per minute than any other player. (Jacob Holmes is half the FGA per minute)
3PA: Rhys Carter is the leader. Darren and Troy next, CW 4th.
Rebounds: Jacob (as expected), CW mid way
Assists: Rhys is the disher, CW 4th, Balls last, but then again if you are the captain, you expect the get the ball!
TO's: Worst offender. Ninja the best, but then again, catch ball, shoot is pretty easy. Expect the main ball carrier to have more TO's than the rest of the team.
Steals: Rhys leader by a long way, CW second.

Looks like he's not too far off the pace intensity wise, but putting up a lot of shots and his shooting accuracy is what's letting him down. He has been shooting at 34% and the team 42%. 3P% at 13% - even U14 Div 1's shoot better than that. I believe if he was shooting at the team rate of FG 42% and 3P% 25%, he would be averaging over 20 ppg and we wouldn't be having this thread.

If Marty hasn't had him been practicing his shooting this week and nailing it, then we have a major problem.

..... or he has a major problem

Needs to hit his shots (possibly taking fewer threes and driving to kick it back out instead) and be a little more selective in the end game. Wouldn't take anything drastic to make him a more useful player (even hit just 1-2 more a game!), but the killer has been that it's largely the same story each time. We'd be 4-3 instead of 2-5 had he adjusted after the first couple of games and we took down NZ and held on in Townsville.

In the Crocs game, we were scoreless in the last 3 minutes! DeVries, Carter and Winder attempted 3-4 threes combined, when we were down just two points. Odd?

Winder needs to remember he was brought in as the point guard. Simple as that.

He's got a scorer's mentality (as it is dubbed). The 10-12 shots a game should only come when the first 2 options have been made unavailable (aka Balls isn't set or Devries isn't set).

It would be fine if the turnovers came for intercepted passes, but when the majority seem to come from fumbles attempting to slash, you have a problem.

His athletic ability should allow him to create more space for passing, like Luke Cooper can or Adam Gibson; I don't know why he isn't.

Piss off Julius^^

I can think of something that he needs

I saw Camel mentioned Willie Farley, and with all of the heat that was put on him his last year in Adelaide, he is much much better than most of the imports in the league now. If the sixers were to replace someone I would certainly like to see him in the 36ers uniform again. At least we would know what we would get from him. Could be an option!!!!

Anon, not disagreeing with your main point, but Ervin attempts 2.3 threes a game to Winder's 3.1. Much bigger difference between the two is from the stripe - Ervin averages 9ish FT/game. Ervin also steps up big time in the fourth - something like 8 points/quarter in the fourth. A good part of that would come from FTs IMO.

No more Farley. Not going to happen and not what we need.

Funny thing is, if Hodge was a Dave Thomas-like citizen he would be a perfect fit for the Sixers at the moment. Of course, he seems to be the anti-DT!

Yea, exactly Paul, that is very frustrating for fans and id say NBL coaches, as Hodge is a fantastic player and from a pure basketball stand point would be a upgrade on all most every import in the NBL, but just not the type of guy who will fit in easily in NBL teams.

Why dont teams sign imports from the SEABL? Redhage and Gruber have both worked out pretty well lately and there are some imports there that would not only be better, but come much cheaper.

Guys like Massingale or Ismail Muhammed would do more than Winder.

An excellent point about a bunch of clubs failing with their imports this year. That really is a big number, and you're right, I wouldn't be lining up for any of the also rans.
Maybe it's time to follow the route Goorjan (and his amazing accountant) started. Pay the big bucks for the Aussies, get a known quantity, and take yourself out of the import lottery.

Would anyone argue with swapping Devries or Winder for Wortho? (not taking into account salary cap and point restrictions)

OK - so a line up with no imports, cover all positions and remain within points & salary caps. Anyone??

Ineedmore, the other benefit is that you deprive opposing teams from more quality Australian players. Take Worthington instead of an import, and who can the Blaze get to replace him?

Once upon a time, it was getting guys like Bruton, and Worthington instead of imports. Now you'd take consistent play from a mid to above-average Australian over half the imports - guys like D Martin, Gibson, Loughton, Petrie, etc. But fans expect entertaining imports and teams gamble hoping to unearth the next McKee or Ervin when, realistically, maybe the best you can hope to get and keep these days is a Lisch or Braswell?

Isaac, Good Points on imports these days.

As someone else mentioned why don't they isolate Winder on the block and make him post up his smaller opponent. He has been successful in doing this early in the game but then never does it again. Basketball can be a simple game of just exploiting match ups which most teams do well besides Adelaide.

Perhaps a different approach would be to allow each team 1 import under a reduced existing salary cap and a second import similar to the marquee player rule in the Soccer A- league. This would allow for teams that could afford it to obtain a quality player for all or part of the season. Those that are budget restricted need not spend any more than they do now. Teams may not need to spend much more than the existing cap but does enable the extra $50 - 200k that may be the difference in attracting a star player.

Isaac, I think the opposite re Farley.
Adelaide need a consistant scorer and performer in the two import roles.

Farly & DeVries would be a good combo along with Balls inside.

Add Carter as your starting Point, and either DJ or Holmes inside and it's a solid starting five imo

Remember either Farly or DeVries are capable of ball handeling up the floor.

Also the extra interest the club would generate in bringing in Farley mid-season would be a win.
Similar to Hodge but different/better because Farley is also a genuine "good guy"

Problem with Farley is that when he's not on, he's not really on. Also impacts team defence which I think is why he wasn't retained after his first return to Adelaide. I don't think they'd really consider him, but to his credit he was in incredible game shape at HSH, and when he got on a roll, he was on fire.

I think the only solution is to play Mitch Creek at all five positions and sit everyone else.

And he can coach the team too.

Yeah right, and after 2 bad games, watch all the haters get on calling him a joke.


I really hope people give this kid a fair go....

I think people miss the fact that there aren't a whole heap of imports about who are better than what we get in Australia. Guys like Ere, Darden, Melzer, Low, Rowland, Davison, Wells (just for you Isaac), Greene, D Smith, Chris Williams, Devries, Braswell etc have all moved on to other leagues directly from the NBL and been successful.

Ira Clark was a very strong import in Europe and, while I am sure he’ll improve, doesn’t look above this league. Taj McCullough scored big against Euroleague and Eurocup teams last year. Darnell Hinson had 28 against a Euroleague team the other week. Corey Williams tore Partizan a new one in the Adriatic League playoffs a few years back. Blalock was a very good pg in the NBA D. Ervin was very good in the PBL league in North America. Devendorf was a scoring machine in the NCAA.

The few imports out there who might be able to have a really big impact are on massive coin in Europe or China as a general rule. You would need to spend really big to get two of them to each team, and even then they wouldn’t be able to dominate like the imports of the 80s and early 90s could when the league wasn’t a great standard.

Oh my goodness yes. Throw in Rocky Smith, Al Green, Leroy (and a bunch of others) and there wouldn't be too many of this years imports who wouldn't be embarassed.

Found it interesting to note the reference to the Chinese league paying big dollars. I don't know anything about them except they didn't pay big bucks a decade or so ago.

I don't think it's ever been a market we have had to compete against in the past, ie USA and Europe.

Maybe that has a lot (or nothing) to do with the number of quality imports we are finding?

We used to hope for guys who didn't make the final cut in the NBA, or CBA back in the day.

Maybe these fringe guys are getting divided up between Europe and China, leaving us with the third tier imports.

Agree Isaac one of weaknesses of Winder is D and Willie was shocking at D last visit here .Not the answer need a organized PG who can do some D
Darnell wherever he is could still do the job for us even at his age and shape

If you think the league was better in the 80s or early 90s, explain why our junior national teams werent competitive back then but have been a world force since the mid 90s? Especially when the international scene itself has got infintely stronger in that time. The overall level of local players has gone through the roof.

Just some quick examples with imports, last season two of the best imports in the Italian league, one of the best in Europe, were Ebi Ere and EJ Rowland. Derrick Low was one of the best in Lithuania. Tremmell Darden a standout in France. Taj McCullough was carving up the Baltic League against the likes of Lietuvos Rytas. Kevin Braswell dominated in Turkey a couple of years back, and carried an average team to the France Pro A at the end of last season. Troy Devries was clearly the leading scorer on his team in the Spanish LEB the last two years.

Back when our league was weak and just moving into the professional era any good college player could come out here and be a star. Nowadays lots of players who excelled at college fail in the NBL.

There arent all these amazing imports running around in other leagues. The top Euro clubs have some, yes, but Chris Williams from the Kings was probably the best import in the Euroleague the year he played there. There are some big names in China too, but how motivated would they be to play at the intensity of the NBL?

The NBL is at a level now like a lot of good leagues where imports cant dominate - clubs might occassionally get lucky, but generally the best idea is to find an import who fits your system and your players.

BTW - the Sixers havent done that in Winder. That's not to say he couldnt be a good player for another club.

The only thing we really know for sure .. -
is the 36ers next Import will be the 36th.
So I suppose if he ended up becoming a mixture of some previous , would be good.

I actually dont get paid a cent by BA or the NBL.

There were 3 NBL players (would have been 4 in Bruton didnt pull out) on the WC team and 7 on the NZ team that went 3-3.

Only one Australian team has ever gone better than 3-3 at a WC (1994 - 5-3 with wins over powerhouses Cuba, China, Korea and two over Puerto Rico) back in the days of Gaze, when they only ran 8 players because most of the guys in the NBL werent up to the standard.

So if the NBL is so bad now, how can a NZ team full of NBL guys be so competitive?

I would like to read some stats from anyone showing that the imports from yesteryear performed better than today's in college or in European competitions. If you can show that I am happy to adjust my view.

And if you can answer why our junior teams of yesteryear were average while our teams of today are so good, I am happy to listen.

Until then...

Got to remember too that back in the day Americans had very little choice of gigs if they did not make the NBA.

Al Green was an All American in High School for instance was Europe, China or Africa options for him ex college, absolutely not.

If you look into the history of the 80's imports most came out on college tours and never left. That would not happen in this day and age.

There was no D League either then as well as fewer NBA teams.

Times have changed , money is bigger in more other countries than Australia.

It looks as though landing a quality import is quite the lottery.

No NBL team recruited Redhage for instance yet the guy ends up representing Australia.

Plus we now have a number of Aussie's holding down import slots in Europe. That was never heard of in the 80's even when we had some awesome players who held their own at international level. Phil Smyth is one who comes to mind when talking about world class players who stayed in the NBL.

There were certainly options in Europe and the second tier in the US was probably stronger than it is today. But you are right that the landscape is much, much different, participation around the world has increased many times over, so it is hard to compare.

In any sport it is the great argument, which era is better. Only the sports where it is measured by time etc can actually prove today's athletes are better.

Anon,
Mark Worthington is an NBL player, played last season for the Tigers and this season for Blaze just because he played in Germany for a few games still makes him an NBL player

Josef, I think the D-League (and that thought of being right on the edge of the NBA) is what might kill us the most.

Sydney Kings' General Manager, Bob Turner, said that it is the nature of professional sport that hard decisions need to be made in the best interests of the team and the fans.

"The Sydney fans have high expectations of their sporting teams, and the Sydney Kings is no exception. We need to fuel the fans desire for fast, aggressive, entertaining basketball, and we are confident that the adjustments we have made to our domestic and import roster will achieve this goal," Turner said.

I would love to hear something along those lines here, as opposed to making the top four in the next three years.

Sorry if this doesn't follow on from the above excellent discussions but I just read in on Nbl.com

The Sixers can be fast and entertaining and even agressive but I like the focus that Big Bob puts on fans.

I'm not convinced Adelaide fans are receiving the same consideration.

Ineedmore, that's a point worth making and I had just emailed Skip about that off-forum. Funnily enough, Winder has the best potential in the team to entertain (besides Johnson, and hopefully Creek) but what fans are calling for is something safer and more team-oriented. Need to balance between setting your team up to win at any cost (the trend towards defensive grind), and playing basketball in an entertaining fashion (e.g., someone like Homicide or Hodge).