Perhaps these players dont contstantly whine to the refs..........

refs are human (mostly) if you get on their backs, they wont show you the love.

And because they don't whine to the refs they obviously get fouled more???
If refs were doing their job correctly they would be calling a foul if they saw it whether the player whined or not!
This is not a charity game pal!

Yeah I would agree, a lot of the "super" players as people like to call them get looked after a lot by the refs as they don't want these guys to leave and go interstate or anything.

Bizzy ...

You idiot !! You really think that ref's don't want "star" players moving interstate? ...and therefore look after them on the foul count .. HAHAHAHAH ...

I agree with Panther it aint a charity !

I'd love to hear from the ref's who im sure will tell you your 'theory' is unsound !

Everyone knows, you whinge to a ref, they wont call fouls, you treat them as a professional and their attitude towards you is professional. Its very simple. And after all they are only human and dont see everything, but some calls need to slide other wise the game becomes this start stop nightmare that everyone has to endure. Point is, everyone should shut their mouths, play clean and just get on with it all.

I was just offering an idea I didn't ever say i agreed with it, I think that the refs should often let a few more calls go to keep the game flowing! There's nothing worse than being called for the most minute foul. Generalaly I think the refs do a pretty good job, it's not easy.

Bizzy,

I think that is a valid point. Not sure it has nothing to do with players moving interstate.

I hear refs call the better players by their first names in games and grapple to catchup with them after games. The problem is refs need to understand its just the ABL not the NBA and while I they should respect these guys, they dont have to give them so many good calls and try to be their best mates.

Everyone says that players whinge too much. A lot of the times it's because something continues to happen even after a player has pointed it out already to an umpire.
So if a player is constantly getting hand checked or held on to or pushed in the back on a rebound they are simply NOT entitled to say a word?
And if they do, and are hacked on a play quite obviously they shouldn't be entitled to a foul?
AND, if a player who is naturally a quiet, non aggressive player doesn't say boo, and misses a shot it's automatically a foul???
What kind of bullshit are you dribbling?

I have seen it more on the womens side than the mens. Deanna Smith was a classic example of a WNBL player getting looked after. She could murder an opposition player on court and then get a foul called on that person.

Don't know if it is subconscious or not from the refs, but it does happen.

panther, i believe you may have just won the argument for the opposition. that is exactly what happens, why do you think you always foul out??

Yeah it seems that when a player drops back from their National Team be it NBL or WNBL whatever, even though they can tear it up on the court they seem to get the 50/50 calls all go there way.

Could the refs just not know they're doing it?

As a Ref, I try to use all the players first names, and most players are fine with it. I also have no problem with players calling me by my name if they know me.

Panther, I think you will find that if you were allowed to sit in on our post game evaluations that all calls are written down and are questioned if they are a bit dodgy. Some good discussions happen as the evaluator may or may not agree with the call.

As for "looking after" players, i don't think so. if the game basically revolves around that player (eg Gerlach) you would assume that there would be more scrutiny on the defence there.

Tigers fans, only using Gerlach as an example. I do not think the
Tigers are a one man team.

Bizzy, i agree with you. Ever seen a YOUNG refs face when a known/ NBL player gets stuck into them. They almost pack their dacks or have a reasonable discussion with them as to why the call was made all the while calling them by their first name. But when someone else questions a call, they talk trash.

Nothing against the refs, they are all good guys, and I could not do it but its just a perspective and feedback for them.

Simon is only getting calls now cos he actually gets the ball inside now, so therefore has more oportunity to score and therefore gets to the line more cos most people in the league hack away at taller players

I agree no matter where you look of course a taller player, playing inside is going to get more calls for them as they are in there banging bodies.

Interesting that was a good call on the YOUNG refs who pack it when an NBL player comes past them. I mean they will learn over time that it's not that bigger deal but I guess they're young and you gotta give em' credit for being out there.

rainman your a tool, he got the ball at south just didnt do anything with it, just like on the weekend!

Yeah I'd agree with you Lloyd he's does sweet FA with the ball even when he gets it.

Tracey Braithwaite seems to get hacked continuously but doesn't get the calls. I think it's seen as an unfair advantage (being that tall).

panther;
i noticed in your most recent game versus west on saturday that mark nash was playing.
did you think the ref's gave him favourable treatment or do you think he was looked after??
from what i noticed the ref's where fair to both teams.

if nash was playing for anyone but west he would get the same treatment as players like dix and kent. i haven't seen the foul stats but i would bet west would be top of the list for fouls called against. it seems west have done something bad by the refs. maybe it is that they talk back too much?

Gertrude,how have I won the arguement for the opposition? I can guarantee you, even if I didn't say boo to a ref, I would still probably foul out! It's just the way I play, aggresively. Anyone that plays physical will automatically get singled out.
I know some refs who will automatically target me and others who call the game fair, both of which will talk to me off the court. I've also had refs apologise for not making certain calls and for making calls against me. An umpire should never assume or guess, it's that simple.

From what i have seen Dix is a bitch, he complains about everything all game. I think the refs get sick of listening to him.

Mark,
I don't think the refs looked after Nashy at all and I agree that majority of the game was called fairly. I fully respect Mark and his game, he had a pretty good tussle, a bit of trash talking it was good. I did feel he had a bit of an off night 6/21 FG's, although the Advertiser called him the "Dominator"!!!

Why do refs call the "better" players by their first names? It all comes down to prventive officiating ...

Preventive officiting: when a ref verbally tells players to change what they are doing, so that there hopefully will be no need to call a foul. e.g. "hands out", "keep it straight" (in the post), "don't hook", "don't hold".

Most of the time a player will not respond to this unless you clearly indicate to whom you are referring. Hence the need to use a name, or singlet number. Clearly using a name will get better recognition from the intended player.

That is why I try to use a person's name whenever possible. They tend to listen more. Obviously, the more "famous" the player is, the longer they played in the league (in some cases if they have played against me in div 2 [in years gone by], and gone on to better things), the more likely it is that I will know their name.

To the not-so-famous: come up and introduce yourselves, and maybe I'll call you by name too.

Panther who do you play for?

I think that the refs do the best they can, but should just maybe let things go a little more at times. But credit to them, I couldn't be a referee!!

I think the high foul count for certain players may have a lot to do with the fact that they get the ball so often. Also, when they do get it, they have the ability to get in front and draw a foul.

Dix doesn't need to be looked after.

Are you kidding Bizzy??

Have a look at the name "Panther" and take a stab......

cant wait Bruce..

Whoops, how dumb do i look. lol.

Panther, I think it's just a matter of how much time those players spend with the ball.

Gerlach - most FGA for Southern
Krause - most FGA for Flames
Watson - most FGA for Lions
Dix - Sullivan's had one more FGA
Kent - always inside, maybe he just gets hammered.

you guys are rite, refs to tend to pick on players who whinge more. well not pick on them but they just notice them more. if players actually speak to US referees with courtesy we mite wanna hear wat u have to say and not just throw out techs or favour players. players that hav been mentioned, dix, gerlach, kent etc maybe they get more fouls called because they have earnt the respect of the refs!!!!!!!!!

Thanks for backing me up with stats Isaac!

so your admitting that you do favour the players that are polite to the refs?

Way to put it Anonymous. I thought that as a referee you were trained to call the game down the line? Obviously when I used to complain about dodgy calls I was possibly right that they were favouring their little toy boys

Wait, didn't Bruce say that if a player listened to their advice regarding the calling of the game, they'd get better results? From that, couldn't you assume that a player respecting the referees' opinions would then get more calls for them than against them since they were adjusting to the way the game was being called?

Well put Anon, well put!!

Ref,

That's a pretty dangerous thing to say .. as a referee you should not need to respect the players you umpire... only the rules. I'd check that with your senior supervisors.

Bringing a system of 'calls' for 'respect' into this is probably not what you meant to do ( i hope !) .. and you should probably back peddle out of this one.

Good luck.

Yes I'd agree Regular Roster - ref what you have said is a pretty dangerous comment, and could cause a few hassles you realise?

Is it really that hard to conceive that better players see more of the ball and by virtue of their talent, receive more fouls than less experienced or less talented players who are defending them? (generally speaking).

That's an excellent point Isaac, obviously better players see more of the ball and if the guards are taking it hard to the rack then they are obviously going to get more trips to the line.

Yeah I'm gonna agree with Anon - we need umpires not fans. If they're reffing is hampered by the fact that they are starstruck then something needs to be looked at.

Referees are on the court to make sure the game is played within the spirit of the rules.

Referees shouldn't ever 'pick on' or favour anyone. If someone is playing in a way that is in violation to my first point, then pull them back in to line within the spirit of the rules - as the rules apply to everyone involved in the game.

i think you'll find that players like Panther, and other with similar intencity 'seem' to be picked on due to their style of play. Although there are a number of 50/50 calls, no calls etc in basketball, these players seem to always have the fouls go against them. It is nothing to do with who they are, but how they play. It happens in every league everywhere in the world, the sooner we recognise that the sooner we can all give the refs a break.

No offence taken Anon.

The refs should just ref by the rules but give a little le-way to keep the game flowing but not let it get too far out of hand

Panther please! I had a pretty good look at the game at Marion when you played Southern, from memory Gerlach had racked up 3 fouls by early in the second, and had four at 1/2 time. Just an answer to one of your examples. Some of the time the refs cannot pick his quick hands, check steals in stats section 60% he gets ball then some are fouls and some is offensive turnover from pressure D.
In regards to foul shots I think Isaac hit it on the head, also his penetration is hard to stop and he also went to the foul line v North alot as they were fouling to stop the clock and hope we miss - Panther I think you are bored at work and maybe if South weren't so aggressive off the ball he or others would'nt be at the line so much.

So confusing ... Anonymous (#28323) is backing me up, telling Anonymous (#28311) that there is a need for preventative officiating.

Talking to players to obviate the need to call some fouls (preventative officiating) is a directive given to umpires from FIBA, BA, BASA and on down.

i.e. we would not be doing our job correctly if we CALLED all contact as fouls (as suggested by Anonymous-28311).

i.e. don't complain about little hand checks, or contact on a pass that ended up precisely where it was intended to go.

That being said, hard contact should always be called as a foul.

the refereeing in the ABL this season has gone down because of the new referees director, he has NO !@#$%^& idea at all!

It's the blind leading the blind!

Don't support an ABL team, go to the pokies or play Keno or buy a x-lotto ticket, you have more chance of winning!

Interesting concept onlooker. I thought the officiating wasn't too bad but could do with a bit of improving and cionsitency though

Onlooker ...

Sour grapes .. prolific fouler ?

"buy a keno ticket .. play the pokies " ?? - thats just what we need another clown endorsing gambling !!

Panther is just upset because he gets called for crappy little fouls hustling after loose balls, while people retaliate to his niggling elbows, holding etc dont get hit with fouls.

I would have though that he would be used to getting no calls after his time in Mount Gambier.

Could possibly have played more games than anyone else, but spent less time on the court.

I know he has told me his thoughts on the competition in Mount Gambier before and reffing was high on his list.

But back to the topic, it happens in all competitions.

Jordan was well looked after, Gaze, probably the most looked after in history of the game.

It is a part of every game, I think we have all had our say and should just move on.

Everyoe will argue with the black and white (or orange for SEABL players and silver for Central Conference) next time they hit the court, its spur of the moment reaction.

But the injustice as Panther feels it is will continue.

Face it, who wants to be the one who told Gaze to shut up and stop crying?

Well put Skyhook, onlooker promote sitting inside instead of out playing ball. Stupidity at it's finest.

I would love to tell Gaze to shut up and give up old man!!

Onlooker, do u have any idea what the new referee director has implemented or is working on?
I suggest you get ur facts straight and stay what u r-an onlooker, and dont bring ur sorry face around basketball, it will kill it.

Well this turned out to be a very interesting topic hasn't it, i'm disappointed i've been out of the office all afternoon!
Isaac and Anonymous poster (28326), I have to agree and disagree with a couple of your comments. Although these players may get the ball a lot and shoot a high percentage of their tems shots that doesn't make them anymore foulable, (if that's a word). Both Jye Watson and Keith Krause shoot a high percentage of 3 pointers per game and we all know the rule...never foul someone shooting a three pointer! So how do you explain that?
Secondly, anonymous, you stated "The more skilled players such as the 36ers players will be hassled more when they have the ball which will in turn result in a foul. " Just because you send a double team, doesn't mean your automatically fouling someone! And out of all the sixers who play, how many would you double send a double team at??? NONE! Maybe Jacob if he was playing, other than that no one.
Oh and "Panther Pls", the players I mentioned it was only Snake who had high free throws against us so the question was quite a general question and a little from past experience. Yes Snake drives a lot and he does a great job of it, but some of those fouls called towards the end of the game were just automatic for the refs to call, they started presuming he was going to be fouled because he may have been fouled earlier in the game a couple of times.
And what did him having 4 fouls at half time have to do with the whole discussion here? Are you saying that if a "favoured" player hacks himself then it evens itself out???
Refs tend to have a smaller tolerance on certain players and they get singled out, but that was not my original discussion. I wasn't complaining about all the shit calls that called against me, I was asking do people think players get favoured, and realistically everyone has answered yes, which is not what refs should be doing!
And to clear everyone up, i've never fouled before in my life!
Sorry, Tony Ronaldson just entered my body for a moment...

panther pls! was a rediculous post that was, please dont waste anymore of our time. telling a team to play less aggresive off the ball, how rediculous. its not the style of game that needs to change its the style of the refereeing that needs to alter slightly, let a bit more go it's a mans game. whats wrong with a solid bump through the lane every now and then, nothing! if it stops the so called main player getting the ball easily then the defense has done its job. unfortunately the game if called too much in favour of the offense, we may as well be playing netball.

Panther, if you discount three point shots, Jye Watson still has the most shot attempts for his team. Same with Keith Krause. Same with Jason Dix.

We're going on a small statistical set of only four games here. For Simon Kent, he's had 2 games where he's had 4 FT attempts in each! Hardly a protected species. Krause is similar -- 9 FTA total in two games, and then 20 over another two.

Jason Dix had one game where he shot 1/3, another with 6/8 and the data is really skewed by the 12/19 game. In that game, Dix was up against Bungy (inexperienced) and Trebilcock (slower) who had 9 fouls between them. Is it that surprising that they'd foul a more agile and experienced opponent more often?

As for Watson, it's a similar story -- 20 attempts total in two games, and then 6 attempts in each of the other two. In his game that I saw, it didn't look like he received special treatment at all. The argument throughout this thread that refs bow before players with which they're friendly doesn't wash -- Watson is new to the league.

No, I have never seen you foul anybody Panther, but people seem to have a knack for tripping over themselves near you.

A lot of clumsy people around, just sorry I only ever played against you once.

my only beef when i referee aba (and its only 1) is players who want to be able to play one style of defense eg; bumping in the post and legal harassing defense out in the middle of the floor and yet when the other team plays relatively the same style of defense they want a foul to be called!!!
c'mon guys you can't have it both ways.
btw this is not directed at anyone in particular nor is it a common theme but every now and again.
other than that i am really enjoying reffing this season, especially the game i had last weekend.

Isaac, I know it's only 3 or 4 games i'm going on here but I can almost guarantee you that Dix and Gerlach will be in the top three of free throw attempts at the end of the year.
And for anyone to say that certain players don't get favoured or looked after then they are watching the game with their eyes shut. I'm not being bias or untoward any one team here as i've played with players who got the same treatment. Let me say now, I played with a certain american who if he did actually miss a shot the defender was automatically called for a foul! Ask Jason Williams, Travis Leaver, Billy Hopkins, Paul Mescke, etc.
It does happen. You listen to NBA games and the commentators constantly say, "that's a rookie's foul, if he'd been playing in the league for a few more years they wouldn't have called that on him."
I also agree with umpires talking to players, I think that's fantastic, communication is a huge key in a good player/umpire relationship. In the long run it benefits the player, the umpires and the spectators. Like one ref said, it helps the flow of the game. If they see something that isn't really effected the play of the ball, they'll let that player know not to do it. If they're a repeat offender then call the foul.
I'm also not complaining about calls against myself as i've learnt to live with it, (all except one ref!) and i'll continue on.
What my post was about was players who get looked after. Refs who get in the mind set that when certain players either lose the ball or miss a shot that they MUST of been fouled.
But it's been a good discussion topic obviously. Better than "what basketball brand do you like"!!!

great comment anon - you really put forward a case, and back it up well too. Its good to see someone here with an intelligent opinion, and not afriad to put a name to it aswell....keep up the good work!

This is a interesting topic for the first two weeks of the season this year (2006)

last weeks game

Panther was 4/6 free throws with only Cam Wilson and Damien Scantlon shooting more free throws.

South 38 FT to 32

Another example is Daren Ng being called for 5 fouls even though he shot 40 points and is a "name player"

Tend to agree with Panther on this one. I would rather have a ref talk to me, (a) it establishes a little give-and-take between the player and ref and (b) it acts as a warning that the ref knows what your doing and will only tell you so many times before pinned a F on you.

I ref in Canberra a bit and as a ref I 'talk'. Talking isn't coaching, it expressing to the players how you want to game to be played and also sets a precedent on what you as a ref will allow and not allow. Yeah, my style of reffing changes depending on skill, teams and the styles of those teams. If I have two physical teams playing then I'll let them bang a bit more than two whimpy teams. I find it frustrating when a ref will just slap a F on the sheet without some 'talk'.

Panther has many valid points. Listen to the NBA game how many times to do hear "rookie foul" or "shooters foul" (Jordon/T-MAC/Lebron) type of foul where the offensive player bribes a foul out of the ref because of his name. It happens, star players get star calls. How many times do those dodge 50/50 charge calls get called against the offensive player. SFA, especially if that player is a Gaze, Jordon, Lebron name.