*Facepalm on the Topic*

You've just opened a big can of worms with this one.

A lot of this will be determined by how much Clarke adjusts his plan to go small. He may look to balance things out a bit more and have the opportunity to have players in their best roles.

Where he throws the import $ will be massive too, because that may limit the options. Not easy - I just hope that he has learnt something from this season!!

Honestly if we could sign Schenscher, I'd do what the Lakers do and that's run a twin towers game - Use Luke as a 5, then have him and Balls or him and Johnson on at the same time. You could rotate Johnson to 5 and Balls to 4 when Luke sits.

Then I'd just get the one import, get rid of Ng and Holmes, sign Gibson and another quality Aussie and we'd be set.

I was lucky enough to have front row seats the other week when Adel played Melbourne.

Couldn't help but see the absolute pain on Johnson's face as he battled against Wade Helliwell for the block.
DJ was so physically overmatched, it wasn't even close.
Then I saw DJ hit a three and couple of other nice shots and realised I would like to see him play the 4!

He reminds me so much of BM (Newcastle player), with his build and emerging skill set.

I don't want to go into what to do with Balls and the impact this would have on the team. I've been screaming out for DJ to play the 5 all year but I think I've changed my mind.

I would love to see him tested at the 4 spot with the backup of a legitimate 5 in the style BM (newcastle player) had with Ben Pepper for a while.

Right, what the hell is going on?

I tried to post the above several times but couldn't until I saw a message that says:

"You have to be a registered user to make a post referring to BM (newcastle player, played with Ben Pepper and some other teams, know who I mean?)

By reducing this guys name to his initials only, it finally allowed me to post.

Can anyone explain that please? Would really appreciate it.

It's a bizarre situation, but: there's a kid in QLD who loves starting crap about said player. Said player is rarely otherwise discussed, so I set it so that you have to be logged in to post about him. Sorry for the inconvenience.

So, Melmeth (for anyone not following) - what about his game did you have in mind? Does he have a contemporary?

I used to think DJ had more of a three point shot (swear he hit a few in his 70ish point SEABL game) but he's never taken a lot or hit at a high rate in the NBL. Could work on it though as it'd be useful in his arsenal.

As for playing him at the four, Ballinger said in the paper recently that PF and C are largely interchangeable in their system, so it might not be a huge change for either of them.

Thanks for clearing that up Isaac.

Was driving me nuts posting and re posting. Thought it was my computer then I thought my post was going to come up five times!

I was just saying I'd love to see DJ play the four for a bit - on any team. I've seen the interchangeable quotes from Marty Clarke before but I haven't really seen it in a game.

I don't think DJ has ever been given the license to float a little. BM was quite successful in that spot, when he played with a legit 5 man.

Seem to have trouble posting now.

But will try again:

Thanks for clearing that up Isaac, appreciate it.

No incovenience, it's only typing after all.

Just staying would like to see DJ play the four spot for a while, on any team.

(And I can't really be bothered re typing and re typing posts anymore! :)

If you get that message/error, hit the back button and the post will often still be there.

ta

id take carter over bruce any day of the week. i cant believe people are suggesting to cut carter, its got to be the worst idea since signing winder.

Since signing Ron Howard! Or since signing Winder as a PG (could've been alright if he wasn't running the show).

I also favour Carter over Bruce.

Dowdell or Holmes would depend on money/points and composition of the team. Both don't shy from contact but I think Holmes is clearly a superior rebounder and is also a leader.

Must be something wrong with Vanderjagt if teams are avoiding him. If Gruber's naturalisation comes through in time, I think Behrendorff could be a FA. Burston's is signed, I assume Garlepp would stay with the Blaze, etc.

Just curious - why all the talk about Barlow? I thought he was overseas and happy there earning big bucks.

Johnson's day out in the Big V Championship division was in a 144-76 win against then lowly Warrnambool...

66 points, 25/32 FG (0/2 3PT, 16/18 FT), 15 rebounds, four assists, three steals and two blocks in 40:18.

Moses, heard (may be very wrong) that he and Rush were not disinterested in coming home.

If it wasn't possible, you could keep Holmes in that Galen Young-type role (probably not dissimilar cost, lower points value and more range on his shot) and spend up on a SG import.

Anon, LC was just responding to my mention of DJ's big SEABL game. Why the snark?

Jonno, I'm not sure DJ would grow as fast as we would like if Schenscher came back and we kept Balls. Could end up being an overinvestment in big men and might make us a little slow against the Wortho's, Petrie's, Wilkinson's and Redhage's.

At this stage, I'd pin my hopes on DJ and resign Balls to play PF if he wants to stay. While there does seem to be some stats and anecdotal evidence that Balls is a net negative on the team, I'm stuffed if I know why, because when I watch him, he is clearly an excellent shooter, has improved on D, is blocking some shots, rebounds okay and plays hard. About the only thing I can pinpoint is that he is a little slow to guard guys like Wilko, who can take him out on the perimeter and then drive or cut to the basket. But better defensive rotations should cover for that.

In the end, my hunch is that it has been the combination of players and inability to get him easy shots consistently that has been the problem.

The other big reason to try to keep Balls is simply: who else can we get who is better?

So as far as bigs goes, option A (sans a Khazzouh option!) should be to pair DJ and Balls as starters and see how we go. If both are effective, Holmes and Dowdell bring enough off the bench to have us covered.

Then all we have to do is get some good imports...

Redhage for Balls???

If we could get a healthy Redhage for Balls I'd do the swap in a heartbeat! Cue outrage from Xztatik ;-)

From Boti's article today:

"We have a wish list of players on the whiteboard and we know who we want to get."

The future of import point guard Eddie Shannon with the 36ers looks tenuous, an Australian point guard and big-man assistance high on the priority list.

Beantown, i disagree that DJ would suffer in development if we got Schenscher, i think he would benefit by training with a well established centre as good as schenscher. he would still get reasonable court time but when it gets to the 4th and DJ keeps missing his layups as he always does its the perfect time for an experienced guy like schenscher to put it down. i think they would be a good combo.

Schenscher is often not played in the fourth by Gleeson, funnily enough.

Yeh it is a bit of a shame but he will definitely get 4th quarter minutes with us at our current win to brain fart ratio

Who was the last NBL team that had success with two inside centres?

2009 - Dragons (Horvath/Burston)

Big man 'assistance' carries an impression of back up for Johnson n Ballinger at 5 n 4.
Clarke confirmed for another season.
An Aussie PG for Shannon. Most likely Gibson.

..... and there lies half the appeal.... Sturt.

my reasons for keeping carter.

Carter is a better ball handler
carter is a better passer
carter is a better shooter
carter is getting much better and will only get better
carter can hit the 3
carter has less turn overs and is a good leader on the court.
carter doesnt lose his head in a pressure situation, where as bruce tends to take the team on his shoulders and coughs it up.

by no means am i a bruce basher but if i had to pick one carter would be my choice every time.

Plus Carter won a championship with the Dragons. Where possible, we need proven winners. As someone said of Bruce recently, "for every great play there is a bad mistake", likening him to Kendall.

If there was room or we were loaded and winning, you'd have him around because he has a higher ceiling, but right now we need to minimise risks IMO.

each to their own anon. i think you should get off the drugs if you think bruce is better.

Big Ads, Horvath sat on the bench. Burston and Worthington played the minutes at centre for the Dragons.

10 Perth - Schenscher and Wagstaff
09 Dragons - Burston and Wortho
08 Tigers - Anstey and Stiff
07 Bullets - Mackinnon and Bradtke
06 Tigers - Anstey and Stiff
05 Kings - Roberts and Stiff?
04 Kings - Nielsen and Stiff?
03 Kings - Nielsen and Malmath
02 Sixers - Rees and Garrison
01 Hawks - Dench and Garrison
00 Wildcats - Rogers and ??

If you look at the runners up in recent years they tell the same story. A big centre and someone who can give you a different look from the perimeter is a recipe for success in the NBL. The Sixers should get themselves a mobile forward and play him, Johnson and Ballinger through the PF and C positions.

A line-up of Schenscher, Ballinger and Johnson through those spots would get murdered defensively.

I could live with that big line up Paul.
In fact I would take it tomorrow.

Isaac, I have premature posting sydrome. Can you please delete the post above?

I really find it hard to find much to differentiate Carter and Bruce. I think they both play similar games.

Their season stats comparison is as follows:

Carter / Bruce:

13.1 / 13.5 points per 40 mins - Bruce
3.6 / 3.3 rebounds per 40 mins - Carter
6.0 / 6.1 assists per 40 mins - Bruce
2.1 / 0.7 steals per 40 mins - Carter
3.7 / 3.3 turnovers per 40 mins - Bruce
36.9 / 37.8 field goal percentage - Bruce
27.6 / 39.4 three point percentage - Bruce
88.0 / 78.9 free throw percentage - Carter
2.7 / 5.2 fouls per 40 mins - Carter
1.6 / 1.8 assists to turnover ratio - Bruce

Most of the differences are statistically negligible. The only real differences are that:

1. Bruce is by far the better three point shooter (which of course also means Carter is the far better shooter from inside the three point line).

2. Carter is the better free throw shooter.

3. Bruce commits far more fouls.

4. Carter gets more steals.

On the important assists to turnover ratio, I was surprised to see that Bruce has the slight edge.

I think they both outwardly have similar attitudes, so it is any guess who the coaches would prefer given the choice, except that Bruce clearly got fewer minutes per game (17.66) than Carter (26.6).

More importantly though, I think you can only afford to have one or the other. Both are quality back-up level point guards in this league, and potential sixth man of the year contenders. Neither in my view should be in anyone's starting 5 calculations. That really probably means you can only afford to have one or the other in your roster.

Most likely , while about the same at the moment...Bruce to improve the most , given a preseason, after not playing any basketball for 18months.

the other issue is stats don't provide much information in relation to pressure situations. ive seen a few brain farts from Bruce in the dying minutes than that of Carter. the stats may show similar numbers but i think Carter has a better head on his shoulders.

He also is older and more experienced. It has to go on the intangibles I think - plus who is demanding the greater salary. I am really not bothered either way, although I agree Bruce has the higher upside.

I don't believe Bruce didn't play basketball for 18 months. He didn't play professional basketball for 18 months thats correct but I think he would have been training with the college he was at. Can anyone tell me I am wrong with this? If he did train with them this would have maintained his abilities and that is what we are seeing now. If this is the case then I don't think he will improve dramatically with a pre-season under his belt.

Carter is the better player I think.

SRT, development of DJ was one issue, but I probably should also have said 'chemistry issues' because I do think DJ came here to start and I'm not sure he and Schenscher would coexist happily for very long.

I also think DJ can be the more dominant NBL player in the long run because of his mobility compared to Big Red, so it doesn't make much sense from my point of view to pay a premium to bring back a guy who will start for two years and then be superceded by a guy we already have on the roster.

Assuming we have money to spend, I think we would be better off sinking that money into better talent at the PG/ SG/ SF positions.

Obviously there is a risk that DJ doesn't develop fast enough and we get pasted by opposing bigs again next season, but I think he has shown enough that we will be ok.

I have to admit Beantown, that was the argument i had in my head, is that DJ did come here for a starters role, and what would that be telling him if schenscher is signed? he will be a bit pissed i think, and i do agree they may not get along as well as i would like them to in my head. i guess what i want out of DJ is his inside game to improve by learning from someone like Schenscher. i completely agree we have seen some good work come out of DJ but he isnt dominating enough and needs to work on using his body more to get rebounds and force his way in.

Played one (1) game with his ole college.
A little bit of training with them.. not a lot... at all in 18months... doing other things.. as per the (many)..too many...'where's Aaaron Bruce ' topics on here....

Bruce/ Carter is a tough call, because they both have some ability, but neither has been consistently effective this season. In Bruce's case, we have to try to factor in his absence from the pro game for a couple of years and the fact that he had no preseason. In Carter's case, he was injured mid-season and I don't think he ever really got back to his early season form.

The stats don't really make a decisive argument one way or the other, so let me go on what I have observed:
- Carter is the more athletic and this allows him to finish at the rim far better than Bruce.
- Bruce is a little quicker and more nimble, which allows him to get through seams in the opponents D. His problem is that he just isn't a serious threat to score at the rim, so opponents can play him for the pass. If he were to get better at pulling up for quick mid-range jumpers and floaters, this might compensate, but he hasn't really shown that kind of touch yet.
- I worry about Bruce's commitment to the game. I was higher on him a couple of years ago when he first played for the Sixers and then he seemed to walk away from pro ball. Is he really committed this time around? The coaches need to be sure he has the desire.
- I think Carter's athleticism will allow him to play some backup SG a bit too and that versatility is very useful.

So whilst I couldn't say for sure which player will have the better NBL career, I tend to lean towards Carter as a safer bet. Ideally, we get Gibson or a good import PG in the Ervin mould and Carter plays backup PG and perhaps some backup SG as well.

you need to remember Anon as Beantown mentioned i doubt 18 months of not playing was him sitting on the couch having nothing to do with bball, he kept himself fit would have kept practising etc. even with a preseason he may improve to fit in the team a bit but not as much as some people think. from all the games this season i know i felt more comfortable when i was watching carter with the ball than bruce.

you say bruce coughed it up because no one made themselves available. thats a fair point. look at the blaze game, no one got free for carter to pass to so he took it into his own hands. and if your thinking yes its luck though, lets wind the clock back to earlier in the season against townsville at home. again milliseconds left and carter hits the 3 to send the game to OT, another pressure situation where carter proved he is worth his weight in gold.

i think if we let carter go he would get picked up elsewhere straight away and it will massively bite us in the arse. personally id rather keep both, as it has been mentioned bruce is younger and still has some more to learn. it will be interesting what comes about in the offseason.

SRT, I agree that DJ needs to get stronger and tougher in the paint. The jury is out there. Did you see them interview him after the NZ game though? He came across well and specifically talked about how he wants to work hard on his strength and to improve his game in the off-season. So he knows what he has to do, its just a matter of putting in the time I think.

On learning from Schenscher, I reckon DJ would be better served learning from Mark Davis. Luke's game is very different to DJ's. He's all about sealing you near the basket, pivoting and using his dominant size. DJ's game is all about quickness and mobility.

Not only could he learn more about positioning and rebounding from Davis than he ever would from Luke, I think Davis's offensive game fits DJ more too.

Watching the Golden Era recently reminded me of the way Davis played when he was younger and more mobile. Did you see all those quick steps around defenders and laying the ball in off the glass? Quite similar to the way DJ seems to want to play. What I would love to see is DJ learning Davis's art of anticipating when his shot is not going in and being the first up to tip the ball in. Imagine if DJ showed Davis hustle around the basket? He'd be a force to be reckoned with!

Agree that we can't justify both Carter and Bruce. paul had suggested a Bruce/Carter combo to me weeks ago, but I don't buy that at all - too much of a risk.

Those 2 SPG are one reason I favour Carter.

Bean, Johnson was recruited to start (or develop to start, though I don't believe that was the original plan) and later getting Schenscher would've screwed him. In early trainings, either he didn't show that he was ready to start or there were concerns about Ballinger and Johnson on together, or something about Holmes (rebounding, leadership) made them want him out there. I suspect one of the latter two because in these final games, Clarke has shown no fear of giving DJ bulk minutes.

If they want Luke now, I guess one of the following is possible:

- they're comfortable with Johnson coming off the bench, how he might take that, and whether that could impact future recruiting
- they just want to keep fans happy even if there are downsides to the plan
- there are enough advantages in excess talent as opposed to missing the opportunity they could've had in 2010/11
- one of Johnson or Ballinger may not stay

Could be a mixture of the first 2-3? Does mean locking up almost 50% of the cap with two positions, depending what Luke costs.

They definitely want to see Luke a free agent to consider offers.

its more than that though anon. i personally just see more stability with carter. Bruce is either on or off and when he is off he is way off. as people have said they are pretty close in comparison but my gut says Carter for sure.

Anon,

Carter was 22-25 from the line, Bruce 15-19.

That equates to 1.7 free throw attempts (1.5 makes) per 40 for Carter, 2.8 attempts (2.3 makes) per 40 by Bruce.

Not exactly a difference that is going to win you too many games, particularly if Bruce is putting more people to the line with his additional fouls at the other end of the court.

As far as point guards go, I look at it this way, just creating some rough figures - I would prefer Bruce and Carter for $150K than Gibson and Carter/Bruce for $225K.

I don't think Gibson gives you that much more than a fully fit Bruce to justify the extra spending. It means less money you can offer recruits who might have a bigger impact on the scoreboard than Gibbo.

Of course, if Gibbo were to be available for $120-130K then grab him.

As Isaac i think mentioned before, id be very interested to know Bruce's state of mind. is he truly passionate about playing the game or is he just going to get over it? that is something the management definitely need to put to him before considering him for a season.

paul, I think Gibson's on less than that at GC. And as for scoring, don't forget that he averaged 12.7 PPG this season (on a team with a number of 10+ PPG scorers*, albeit also on a fast-paced team). That's good for 20th in the league. I'd be quite happy with a defensive, Australian PG who can chip in 10 or so PPG. Get him signed as early as possible then focus on the rest.

* Clark, Worthington, Petrie, Harvey, Gibson, Goulding - six guys who averaged 11.9 PPG or better. Bit of overlap between a couple of the bigs though.

Gibson's wage next year is going to be quite a bit higher than this year you would think. He is one of the standouts of the free agent class. Hard to see any team getting him cheap.

Aaron Bruce is quite capable of getting 10ppg, and the extra cash (assuming there is some) would allow the Sixers to go after a genuine scorer. Furthermore, Bruce is better at creating shots for others than Gibson.

For the same price = Gibson, but at some point there has to be cost/benefit analysis done. Role players can get the job done at point guard, and Gibson to a large extent is a good but potentially expensive role player.

09 champ pgs - Gibson and Carter, 09 runner ups - Crosswell and Kendall. 10 champs - D Martin and Robbins, 10 runners up - R Martin and L Martin.

No starts in that lot, and with a good supporting cast Bruce and Carter could do the job those players have.

Paul, I would say that the starting point guards on the '09 and '10 championship teams (Gibson and D Martin) are clearly a cut above the rest you named. I seem to recall that the quality of the backcourt was an important factor in the result in both series too.

Gibson and Martin may not be 'stars' as you say, but they are the two best aussie born PGs going around in the NBL, and are both current Boomers. If not stars, I would say that puts them pretty close. I think that they are now both well ahead of CJ Bruton for example.

As for the '10 runners up, until late in the season they had a pretty handy PG in Tywain McKee. Wollongong did amazingly well to still get to the grand finals, but the Luke and Rhys Martin were never their intended PG combination.

Those that think Aaaron Bruce played a lotta Basketball in his 18months in the USA , - ya know you could be wrong..
Getting married, working in the new families business
amongst other things, other than basketball.

Melbourne to go for Gibson?

I think over the last 2 years, it has become abundantly clear that DJ is only an effective player when he is the central player in an offense.
While we have Ballinger in the team, he won't be that.
At Melbourne, Johnson was a star while Anstey was injured. Sharing minutes with Anstey when he returned saw DJ basically disappear off the face of the Earth.
This season, behind Ballinger and splitting minutes with Dowdell, Ballinger and Holmes, he wasn't nearly effective enough. He didn't get the touches that his offensive game requires and he was basically lost out there. Ballinger gets injured and he instantly becomes a 20 and 10 player.

Bringing in Schenscher or a Centre import will bring us right back to this year again, only with a legitimate option to bring on.
Schenscher and Ballinger have proven that they can coexist together effectively and can share the scoring load between them. Ballinger and Johnson just haven't shown any indication that that can happen.

Johnson has been signed now, so there's no going back on that one, so we either need to provide a structure that will see Johnson get good touches while he's on the court even with Ballinger, or basically have a rotation where DJ and Holmes play together and Ballinger and the new Centre play together, where Ballinger is the central player in the offense when he's on and Johnson is when he's on.

I personally would like to see us go with a 3 big rotation. Get rid of both Dowdell and Holmes and play all 3 for 25-30 mins each. Have the new player as a complimentary player for both Johnson and Ballinger (strong rebounder and defender who doesn't require many touches, so basically a Holmes who is tall enough to do what Holmes tries to do). Schenscher can coexist with Ballinger, so perhaps he can coexist with Johnson just as well.

We currently have Dowdell at 4 points and Holmes at 7 points. Combine those points and get a 9 or 10 pointer. We now have 1 quality player for less points than 2 OK players with big deficiancies. We will also be better for it. This way we can afford to be guard heavy like our list invariably is without sacrificing our bigs to do it. Only run a 9 player rotation with Daly as the 10. Even if we keep Dowdell around as an insurance policy for if we get an injury.

Gibson/Carter/Daly
ImportSG/SF/Herbert
Hill/Creek (or Rush/Import)
Ballinger/Schenscher
Johnson/Schenscher

We can even afford to lose Hill for an import or a Liam Rush/someone better than Hill.
Give the money of Ng/Bruce/Holmes/Dowdell/2 Import to Gibson, Schenscher, Import. Bring in Rush and we still have enough points to keep Dowdell as the 11th man.

I just have one question. Why is everyone seemingly so insistent on getting Luke Schenscher back to the 36ers and consigning DJ to playing back up again? Over the last 3 games of the season he (DJ) proved what most people already knew that not only is he ready to be the teams starting centre but he also showed what he is capable of when he is the focal point of the offense.

Johnson has already spent 2 seasons as understudy to Chris Anstey (a better role model for his style of play he couldn't have asked for IMO) and a season here in Adelaide playing second fiddle to an out of position power forward. Why does he need to spend another 1 or 2 seasons warming the bench and only getting court time to give Heinz Big Red a breather? The guys numbers in the past 3 games have shown that he could be one of the more dominant centres that the NBL has.

Maybe, just maybe, its time for the 36ers to have DJ as their go to big man in the paint and let Ballinger float around taking mid to long range shots that he seems to excel at. IE, making DJ the focal point with Balls as the 2nd rather than the first option. As for the defensive end, Johnson knows that he needs to bulk up a bit and add to his strength but having a 7 foot presence blocking the lane is harder to get over the top of than someone 6'9" and playing out of position.

As for the rest of the current 36ers not on contract? I'd probably keep Holmes, Creek, Ng and if we can't get a decent big man to back up DJ then Jeff Dowdell might be worth keeping. In the past 3 games he has also shown what he can produce if he's given license to.

Oh well, that's my rant for the time being.