Joe M
Years ago
I think Phil Smyth and Neil Craig are very similar.
Is anyone seeing any similarities between Neil Craig and Phil Smyth. Apart from the championship Smyth won, both have take a squad of player from the top to the bottom and not been able to develop any younger players.
Smyth 3 championships, Craig 0 premierships.....no comparison.
Smyth deserves more respect from Adelaide fans than he gets, he won us 3 titles ffs! Things got bad at the end, but 3 championships deserves the respect of the 36ers faithful.
Joe M
Years ago
Reading is not a strong point, "Apart from the championship Smyth won"
the similarities are - lack of development of young players and taking a old strong older side at the top....right the way down to the bottom.
How about reading what is written first.
K.E.T
Years ago
Anon is pointing out that you said championship, not championships
You implied Smyth only won 1 instead of 3
Beantown
Years ago
Joe, apart from the obvious fact that Smyth won 3 titles and Craig has done squat, they don't even have similar coaching styles! Craig focusses on defense and a rigid system whereas Smyth was all about offence and letting his players off the leash. There is zero comparison between the two.
Joe M
Years ago
Meh - I saw 2 coaches wreak 2 programs by failing to develop younger players.
That's one similarity right away.
Skud
Years ago
I dont actually think alot of the Crows problems are Neil Craig. Most other teams go through a several year rebuilding phase after the retirement of older players. When you look at the how many players and how much experience we lost last year, its really no surprise they are playing poorly.
Neils right in one thing, when they play well they play as well as the best..its a matter of getting them to play at their best for an extended period of time.
I remember Mick Malthouse being on the monday night footy show and the anger he showed at Neil Craig getting any blame for the way the crows are playing, he pointed out what I just did, the loss of their core playing group for years, and said for the age of the squad they are doing well
You can't 'develop' young talent in the NBL, it's all about wins & losses as there is no draft system. In fact if you "bottom out" you could in fact signal the death knell for your club's existence.
I'm not saying Smyth shouldn't have been sacked earlier than he did, of course he should have the team was just treading water for the last 5-6 years under him.
The Crows problem despite having the draft system is they refuse to bottom out. It's why we saw them playing washed up players like McLeod, Goodwin, Edwards and Burton last season and starting the year 0-6.
The Crows hierachy have always been more concerned with making millions of dollars every year rather than doing the right thing by the supporters. Last year they were talking top four and start of this year were talking the same crap again.
They're just way too conservative which is why we still have a guy like Craig coaching us who's time was up 3-4 years ago. If they had have started rebuilding 2-3 years ago the Crows would be starting to come good a bit now, right now they're a good 3 years away from being a top four contender.
They need a good solid coach from outside West Lakes that can come in and give them all a good kick up the arse and tell them they're not the superstars they think they are. Preferably a coach from interstate.
Instead what are the odds they eventually appoint Bickley? Keep all the old money supporters out Burnside & Unley way happy. What's he done inbetween retiring and becoming an assistant there? Read the sports news on Channel 9. You just know it's going to happen.
Trigg and some of the other time servers there need to be shown the door.
Skud you are very right on that, the crows are in a rebuilding phase. Most teams go through a period of being horrible before developing into a top level side (st kilda in the last few years, west coast in 05/06)
Adelaide typically finishes 4-8 with a couple of bad years finishing 10-12 and a couple of good years finishing 1-4. They are always too good for a top draft pick but too weak to win it all or make the grand final.
Adelaide has a very young team to develop though ATM which is good. I think Craig is pretty decent at developing talent actually.
The problem lies in two areas;
#1 too many injuries. One bad year is a fluke, two is horrible luck, three is a bad training regime. Adelaide has had a ridiculous amount of injuries these last three years, maybe Craig is training them too hard. Last year crows had half team out at one point.
#2 when the crows are good enough to dominate and make the finals, craigy chokes.
2005, 2006 v west coast and 2008 v collingwood were shocking for craigy, totally out coached.
In terms of smyth and the 36ers, I partly blame basa. They could pay players decently and mucked up any chance with Newley and ingles. Imagine if we had either one under smyth and had the cash to retain decent players who fled in droves.
We really needed a change after 10 years(ish) of smyth and a couple of bad years.
Also, about this taking a top team to the bottom crap.
I'm tapping my memory here, excuse any wrongs.
Smyths first year. - championship 98
Smyths second year - championship 99
Third, lost to titans in semis? 00
Fourth lost to Wollongong in semis 01
Fifth won championship 02
Lost to Melbourne in elimination 03
Finished third, lost in elimination to bullets 04,
Finished third lost in elimination to bullets again? 05
Finished third lost in elimination to cairns 06
Missed finals 07
That is a staggering record. He held the team high for 9 out of 10 years approximately.
Craigy, his first two years, crows finished 1st and 2nd. After finishing below the 8 under ayres. They also finished 5th and 8th. Missed the finals last year, but almost made it after beginning 0-6. (injuries).
This year we have one of the youngest teams in the comp, lost about 6 veteran players and have a few veterans who still play, are injured.
Expectations too high, and blaming the wrong people for the wrong things.
tom
Years ago
alot of fools on these forums... phil was the best thing that happend to this basketball club... look at how all the players loved to play under him and clearly the program worked , as you just have to look at the championships..
Smyths first year. - championship 98
Smyths second year - championship 99
Third, lost to titans in semis? 00
Fourth lost to Wollongong in semis 01
Fifth won championship 02
Lost to Melbourne in elimination 03
Finished third, lost in elimination to bullets 04,
Finished third lost in elimination to bullets again? 05
Finished third lost in elimination to cairns 06
Missed finals 07
Mystro
Years ago
You can't 'develop' young talent in the NBL, it's all about wins & losses as there is no draft system. In fact if you "bottom out" you could in fact signal the death knell for your club's existence.
So the fact that the team that won the NBL last season did it with mostly young players that club had developed in their own program doesn't throw up any red flags on that theory?
K.E.T
Years ago
Letting Farley go after '02 and signing Charles Thomas for the 02-03 season as the sole import gave that away.
36ers did not let Farley go.
He left to persue options and by the time he realised he couldn't get a contract, the 36ers had signed Charles Thomas, therefore he went to the Razorbacks.
Beantown
Years ago
Joe, in either coaches case, how do you know it was their fault players didn't develop? There's two sides to development and sometimes a player either isn't that talented, or just doesn't care enough to do the hard work.
With regard to Smyth, I think you might be down on him because you are judging the latter years of his coaching stint. The first five years, Smyth's teams were brilliant. After that, a combination of poor management and massive debts at the club gradually seems to have had an effect on the quality of player we were able to attract.
I'm not sure if it was because Smyth knew the Sixers didn't have the resources for him to assemble teams that could compete for a title, or what it was, but in the last few years as coach, he just didn't seem to have the drive for the job anymore. In the end, I think it was the right decision to make a change when they did.
I think that it is unusual for any coach in any sport to last around the 10 year mark with any one team. The same game philosophy, training and ideas imparted on basically the same playing group over that longer period of time seems to eventually result in teams losing their desire and/or commitment to the team. Any coach that changes up the routine a bit and introduces new ideas over their career seem to have a better chance at survival.
Phil was a great coach, but eventually the lack of defense that his coaching style allowed came back to bite him when he lost some of the better players from his early seasons. The Crows players currently just don't seem to have the attitude or effort to show a spine. I can see that Malthouse would defend Craig as the coach can tell players whatever they like, but if the players put in no effort there's not much the coach can do. The coach is always the easiest scapegoat.
mr magoriums hooporium
Years ago
if you have a winning formula - everyone emulates this - everyone has you and your team nutted out.
IMO for power and crows - time to get an old fashioned midline of blokes built like brick shithouses down the key positions in the middle - can't do wonders with the ball if you can't get it.
The only similarity is they both lost the fans. Smyth was a winner and Craig, despite the wraps on him, has won nothing.
Jonno
Years ago
Smyth was a good coach, 3 titles in 11 years is a great effort, not many coaches in any sport have a better record than that.
He also built the 2002 team himself, so wasnt just a case of inheriting a good/vetran team who, which some say was the case with the first 2, and the 2002 had some young players like Holmes and Forman in it, so he did bring in young guys, and both of those guys didnt really improve since leaving the Smyth coached 36ers, Forman had a breakout season just this year, years later with a lot of help from McLeods system IMO. So IMO Phil had both of them playing at close to their peak at a fairly young age, so he could coach and develop young talent, and won the 2002 title with a team that many would have picked to miss the playoffs, i doubt anyone had them as favourites.
Yes he missed out on Newley and Ingles the 2 top SA talents, but that wasnt 100% his fault, management played their part in that too.
I do agree in the end he did seem to be over it, probably due to all the BASA/ownership/cash issues, which im sure played a big part in the recruiting process, ie lack of funds to pay the top talent.
IMO Smyth should be remembered as a great coach, if not the best/most successful in 36ers history, he did coach the club to 3/4 of its titles.
Those who knock him saying he cant recruit and develop young talent, Clarke and Ninnis (and Dunlap also in the past) were hired with a better reputation for this, especially Clarke with his AIS background, and many bag them out, so what would people rather? Its the coaches world, no matter what you do, fans will always bag you i guess.
Smyth Vs Craig
Smyth has 3 titles in 11 years, coached an attractive, free flowing, high scoring style of game.
Craig has 0 titles in around 8 years, coaches a rebotic, defensive style of game.
Not that many similarities IMO
So the fact that the team that won the NBL last season did it with mostly young players that club had developed in their own program doesn't throw up any red flags on that theory?
The sign of a good coach is to win with average player by getting the best out of them, ie Hawks. Neither Smyth in his later years not Craig for most of his time at the Crows has been able to do this. Their lack of ability to adjust quickly to the moves of the opposition coaches and their rigid adherence to game plans that the players are not able to follow is something that both have excelled at. Smyth was hamstrung by lack of finances in his later years as Crazig has been a victom of middling success and average draft picks.
Bottom line is that Smyth was successful at a time of big spending and Craig should have won at least one Premiership. Craig is a bigger failure than Smyth.
Anon #837 - maybe you should be shown the door.
Bickley hasnt been on 9 in ages, ever since he took up an assistant coaching role at the Crows!
Even wikipedia is more up to date than you!
Anthony
Years ago
No comparison Phil was an excellent coach over a long period, 98 season 36ers were only rated mid table contenders, 99 season backed up with same talent. All those 3rd and 4th finishes after 02 and looking at the talent in our squad, we had generally over achieving seasons. Despite being hampered by mis management for the last 4 seasons where we only had enough talent to finish bottom 4 we still managed more wins than our last 2 seasons from memory, and actually played an exciting brand of basketball to match.
You need to be a registered user to post from this location. Register here.
Advertise on Hoops to a very focused, local and sports-keen audience. Email for rates and options.
An Australian basketball forum covering NBL, WNBL, ABL, Juniors plus NBA, WNBA, NZ, Europe, etc | Forum time is: 9:41 am, Thu 25 Apr 2024 | Posts: 968,026 | Last 7 days: 754
