Over It!
Years ago

Refs saying: It's Not My Call

Im absolutely over it! Hearing...."It's not my call"

Friday night I coached a junior team, one of my players got bounced around like a pinball from 3 defenders under the basket and no foul was called.

Now i'm not proud of the abuse I gave the umpire who was standing right next to me at half court. But he had the same angle as me and saw what happened. Rather than giving me a technical foul for my 3x"f-bombs", he said "its not my call". Which to me means he saw it, understood my frustration, but wasnt willing to overide the other ref.

So what is the powers of basketball teaching our referees. That they are individuals, they are not a team. Shouldnt they be backing one another up, sharing the work load, as all employees do for all work duties.

What is the point of a ref running to the half way line if they cant blow their whistle? Shouldnt they just run to the foul line, watch the play when the ball is dribbled over half way, then back to the base.....sounds ridiculous doesnt it???

It would be impossible for a ref to see everyting at the baseline, isnt this why we have 2 refs, to back each other up? You see something, so you call it.

Now, Im not having ago at the refs, its the system they have been provided. Does anyone know how we could change this? Im guessing there is a position where there is a top ref in cgarge of every ref (not the ump in charge on the night), who might listened and start teaching our young refs to be a team? Anyone know who this is and how to contact them?

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Hanging Round  
Years ago

If 'your' player retaliates, then the foul call is made and frustrations are increased.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Refs do need to work together to control the game. When a team knows one ref is not going to call things, the game goes south pretty quickly. Fouls are very rarely called on aggressive team at home.

Last round the foul count in my game was us 4, them 18. It should have been more. They slapped the ball carrier senseless, grabbed the rebounders, every penetration was fouled, and every fast break was a reach from behind. When the guard pelvic thrusts the ball carrier in a simulated sex attack without repercussion, that is bad umpiring. 18 fouls was a flattering foul count.

Some aggression is good, but unfortunately, poor umpiring rewards over aggressive teams who play the man and not the ball.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Over It

Below is the two person mechanics guide which shows areas of responsibility in 2 person mechanics. This will give you and insight into referees areas of responsibility. Starts page 17.

http://www.fiba.com/downloads/Rules/2010/TwoPersonOfficiating2010.pdf

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Anonymous  
Years ago

748 good call, or over it to you want both referees watching the area of where the ball is and then have nobody watching the rest of play.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

just because it says there is an area of responsibility for each ref, IF YOU SEE THE FOUL BLOW YOUR GOD DAM WHISTLE!!!!

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Senior  
Years ago

Over it

Think of it another way:

If the official standing next to you, calls a foul across the other side of the court and underneath the nose of his/her partner then this shows a lack of trust for his/her partner.

Area of responsibility is important for umpires because although they should work as a team, it is important to have eyes on and off the ball.

If a Referee is "Ball watching" then this leads to problems off ball

Of course if there is a foul which is blatantly obvious then yes, it makes sense to give a "help out call" because perhaps your partner is less experienced or maybe got caught out of position and had a bad angle but this should only be if you are 100% sure

If you have to guess, then it is better to trust your partner

Having said this, if you were dropping the f bomb then the Referee closest to you should have supported his/her partner by giving you your TBone and maybe sending you for an early shower



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Anonymous  
Years ago

Must be nbl refs!!!

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Europa  
Years ago

Excellent Senior,

That way we are more worried about the result than the cause.

Fix the cause, not result "T-bone" needed.

Another case of a lack of respsonsibility from a ref.

Reply #349756 | Report this post


birdman  
Years ago

the areas of reponsiblity are also designated because that referee has the BEST view of what is happening, therefore if they dont make a call the other referee could assume that something has occured that they did not have a good angle or view of and therfore this makes it hard to overide a call because they could not be in a position to see everything. Also as someone mentioned above sometimes their role is to watch a completly different area at times, perhaps even away from the ball completely!

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Anonymous  
Years ago

751 agreed if you see it call it no problem. What i'm suggesting is if you understand where each ref is looking on any given play you will know which one you should query on the call. If you look at the break up of the court for referees there is no point abusing the trail official for a missed call in Area 4 because he isnt looking there. It would be like abusing the centre who is in the front court because the guard traveled in the back court.

If you see it call it is the right way to go but if I'm not looking there I cant call it can i.

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Callitanyway  
Years ago

This is a tricky subject, as it is certainly more in depth than it seems on the surface.

'Over It' you are 100% correct in your statement of the fact that its generally not the refs fault, but the way that the princpals are taught.

I believe at Junior level, if a referee has an excuse of 'its not my call' they are senior enough to realise what the areas of responsiblity are, and should be senior enough to take control of the game.

When refereeing with junior refs, confidence and trust are huge to helping them referee better. However this should not be done at the expense of the game being officiated correctly. Fact is on a Friday Night you will often get 1 experienced referee, with 1 unexperienced referee, and the experienced referee needs to take full control of the game, and call whatever needs to be called to keep the game going well, regardless of areas of responsiblity.

It is then upto the experienced ref to explain to their partner that 'hey you missed this call, and I had to cover it for you. It wasnt my call, and i shouldnt have to call it, however I did because it was a call we had to get'.

I understand the idea of 'its not my call' at a higher level such as National Championships (16,18,20)ABL, WNBL, NBL. As referees at these respective levels are deemed to have enough ability to call 'their share' of the game. At these levels, if a referee is seen calling out of their area, regardless of whether it is right (unless absolutley blantant), they will often be the one whom cops a spray after the game from the referee evaluators, as this demonstrates a lack of trust and team work. Team work in refereeing is vital to the game being called correctly, and all offcials have to be on the same page, calling the same level of illegal contact fouls. It is heavily frowned upon to call out of area at the higher levels, and will most definatley cost a referee their spot at a Nationals, and certainly reduce their value at National League level.

Coming back to Juniors, Youth League, and seniors - any referee should be making the obvious calls. (However some referees take this too far and end up calling incorrectly in front of their partner.) But with the example given above, the referee has identified that it was a foul, acknowledged this by saying 'its not my call', then turning a blind eye to the coach dropping 'f' bombs because they knew the coach was right. Fact is they should have called the foul, and if need be maybe a few seconds later to give their partner a chance to call it, because it is needed for the good of the game.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

callitanyway +1

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Reading your post Over It, I feel you're writing on behalf of me as the same thing happened to me when I was coaching on Friday. The ref was standing next to me as my player had a kid effectively use his arm as monkey bars. God only knows what the baseline ref was watching, but after asking the ref that had the same view as me if he saw it, he responded no. Then he followed it up by saying "even if I did see it, it's not my call so I wouldn't call it". WHAT THE HELL KIND OF ANSWER IS THAT??!

I don't know how to fix the problem, whether it be the refs in charge or the refs themselves but something needs to change.

Reply #349767 | Report this post


Over It!  
Years ago

Thanks for the: http://www.fiba.com/downloads/Rules/2010/TwoPersonOfficiating2010.pdf

according to this the ref that said it wasnt their call, it was.

Someone wrote about ball watching. The player drove to the key and was then bounced around by 3 defenders as they all helped out. The offence players who defenders helped out had no-one on them. The player or pinball was unable to pass to open players due to being off balance, and surrounded (Good D, even if a foul was called, it stopped a certain 2 points). Another offensive and defensive player were on the opposite side of the key, and the other offensive and defensive players were in the corner on the baseline (baseline refs view). That accounts for all players. So the only thing for the ref was to watch the ball who said its not my call.

Why cant they wacth everything. Im the coach, i watch everyting, picks, boxing out, weakness and strengths of my team and the opposition, where the ball is, what the players are doing with/without the ball etc. How do i do this...I look at the whole court, not just an area.

Senior - I see the thought process, however you see it, you call it. Next timeout the refs can talk about the play, and one would probably say "hey, thanks for helping me out, I was blindsided on that one".

I wouldnt of minded a "T". As they can have the ability to change the way a game is umpired.....they shouldnt, but they do for some reason. I was very surprised I didnt get one, but as stated, i didnt get one, cause the ref knew it was a foul, or really there was about 3 or 4 fouls on that play. Everyone saw the foul or fouls, except the ref who couldnt see it, probably cause his view was blocked and he needed his team mate who he should trust to help him out!

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Had nearly this exact same situation happen to me a few months back.

I knew the play the opposition was running, and had the trail official right in front me. I told him who was going to foul, and where they were going to foul (was a moving screen)

The result, was my player got whacked illegally. Stoppage of play. Ref turns around to me and says, I saw it, I know it's a foul, but you know I can't call it.

I'm ok with refs not looking in areas where they shouldn't be looking, and consequently not seeing things. But if you see it, and you 100% know it's a foul, I'd prefer the right call be made, regardless of areas and responsibility.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

"At these levels, if a referee is seen calling out of their area, regardless of whether it is right (unless absolutley blantant), they will often be the one whom cops a spray after the game from the referee evaluators, as this demonstrates a lack of trust and team work."

So we are better off getting it WRONG for not trusting the other ref who has made a wrong decision(or non-decision)? No accountability for making mistakes, but blasted for trying to correct such mistakes?
WOW. No wonder that there is such low confidence in and respect for referees getting the job done correctly and not impacting on games if this is the gospel being spouted. Referee evaluators covering up accountability for wrong calls by giving a spray to the referee who got it right? In the real world, any business working to such an environment would not be in business for long!

Reply #349789 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I think you will find the "spray" only relates to 50/50 marginal calls not the big and bold obvious ones that everyone in the venue sees. Everyone I think agrees that the obvious fouls must be called whether they are in your primary area or not, I dont think any referee or referee coach would argue against this. It's more around the 50/50 call out of area or a call from a bad position out of area or a call out of the referees periphery that they thought they saw but didnt see the whole play etc

The other issue here is referees trotting out the old saying "not in my area". We all know its a cop out and usually, note the word usually, its trotted out by less experienced officials who dont have the courage to make a call.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

If only they didn't guess when it is their area of responsibility and they don't see anything. Sometimes there actually isn't anything.

Call it as you see it eliminates potential for abuse from the side lines which as ugly as it is, is compounded by guessing and no calls.

Might earn some respect. Better to have respect than false confidence.

Reply #349811 | Report this post


Senior  
Years ago

Over it
I am glad you see my point,
Like others have said if it is an obvious call and you have a clear view of the contact then make the call for the good of the game

This is common sense

Not sure what Europa is on about with result & cause

My second point was that if the official was next to you and the contact was the other side of the split line and close to his/her partner then calling a 50/50 in this situation can be dangerous because often what looks like contact from along way off, might actually be a flop or something which the closest official has a better vision

This is why officials are taught to stay at home and work within there area of responsibility for the most part

Of course in junior basketball we get a big difference between the senior ref's and juniors with less experience so I still advocate the "Help out call" and perhaps in your situation this was required

Certainly for a ref to say "it's not my call" simply as an excuse then this is poor form

However it is also poor form to react with several expletives so that's why I suggested the ref should have given a Technical

Maybe though, Over it you can try to understand that the officials are more than likely doing there best and maybe don't have the confidence to overall there partner

Have you tried umpiring a game of basketball?

And how would you react if you were trying to make moves as a coach and you had your players abuse you because you were making mistakes?

- I am sure you would not put up with it




Reply #349821 | Report this post


lockstock  
Years ago

How about this - refs make mistakes just like everyone else. Build a bridge and get over it. To worry about things like this in life, gee whiz. Sure, a reaction is normal, but at that point don't you just get on with life?

Reply #349825 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

great,

that way it will never get better.

Reply #349829 | Report this post


Over It!  
Years ago

Yes have umpired, called it as I saw it.

Reply #349854 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

anon do you really believe refs get better because a coach yells at them? Or because of threads like this?

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Anonymous  
Years ago

has anyone gotten better with no accountability.

At least there is a chance if something is done rathre than nothing.

Doing the same thing and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity.

That is exactly what has been happening in referee education for decades.

Accountability is the only thing that will change it.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Ok then what I think is a fair question......What accountability do you want at the junior level? Most kids referee at the junior level for pocket money, how do you want to hold them accountable? Knowing that retention even now is extremely difficult for the simple example above of constant abuse.

Reply #349875 | Report this post


Callitanyway  
Years ago

On a very positive note - isnt it fantastic that this has not turned into a ref bashing thread.... and im being serious too! some quality discussions... now that Ive posted this, lets see how long it lasts...

Reply #349876 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Because coaches yell at them that doesn't equate to accountability.

And you're correct. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity. Another reason why coaches should stop.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Anon where has anyone said that coaches yelling at referees = accoutability. Nowhere - and typically you lose sight of the point made to "defend all refereeing". That is the problem, the blind blinkers to defend all at the expense of holding referees to any sort of standards. Accountability is non-existant, partially because of the problem mentioned of a lack of numbers. BUT there has to be repercussions - if a referee evaluator bakes the guy calling out of his zone the correct call instead of the guy who fluffed the call in his zone because it's "showing up" the other referee - then we have a real problem. Because you are penalising a RIGHT call over a WRONG (in this instance non-) call. And you wonder why there is so little faith put in referees in this state in particular - where standards are MILES behind those in Victoria.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Anon 878, where has it ever been said that the guy who calls the right call out of area is the only guy to get yelled at by a ref coach for want of a better term? I can assure you the ref who missed the call in their primary area gets a good talking to around why they didnt make the call. And there are times when the referee calling out of area doesnt get yelled at because they were the only one who could see the play eg the centre when the play comes towards them in the form of a hooking foul for instance. But generally unless the ref calling out of area can explain why they were looking there they will get marked down. As stated above ball watching causes greater issues such as missed of ball contact which can lead to bigger things.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

"But generally unless the ref calling out of area can explain why they were looking there they will get marked down."

So again, the guy who makes the RIGHT call gets punished. And the fact you can't see this as a problem goes a long way to explaining why reffing is in it's current state.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

"And there are times when the referee calling out of area doesnt get yelled at because they were the only one who could see the play eg the centre when the play comes towards them in the form of a hooking foul for instance."

But hold on, aren't they meant to be looking off-ball?? So how can it be alright in "some" situations?

I'd say punishing right calls over wrong calls over semantics causes greater issues.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

892 893 if you had a clue about reffing it wouldnt be so difficult for you. If there is no one in the primary area of an official, in the case the example was the centre he/she would be looking directly into area 5. If the post moved into the middle of the key and hooked his opponent he would be coming directly at the centre. Have we not said call the OBVIOUS. This would be obvious to the centre who is waiting for the play or player to come into his primary. We are talking obvious calls not a 50/50 hand check on the other sideline! If your going to be a negative tool go away. If you have something to contribute that is positive and constructive then please add it.

If the centre is looking at the play on the very opposite sideline I dont care if he gets the call right. What is going on in his/her primary area? If all 3 or even 2 refs are watching the ball totally then there are going to more complaints than ever before.

Everyone is advocating if it's obvious and you see it call it. That isnt a hard concept to grasp for anyone. But we are generally talking about taking responsibility for your own areas. There will be times a referee gets caught out of position, its the nature of 10 players in a confined area who are generally bigger in size than the referee. These are the situations where referees must step in and help out for calls in the shared area or in the obvious cases out of area but if you were to map a game of basketball most calls occur inside the 3 point arc and in most of these cases it is in a shared area in 3 person officating.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Coaches tell because of the lack of accountability. A resultant.

If the Defs were held accountable, coaches wouldn't need to yell.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Oh sorry how silly of me because the coaches are never fuelled by emotion!!!! Next time in the an NBL game when two volatile coaches match up against each other, let's say Gleeson v Wright. I bet you the one that is bitching the most..........is the one thats losing! their doing everything they can ti gain an advantage, their working the refs to get a call etc At every level of the game the coach bitching the most is "generally" the coach who is losing.... that's a fact.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

The only one getting emotional in this thread however appears to be you defending all things referees! Everyone else has done a great job in not naming and bagging referees but whether they generally are accountable for getting decisions CORRECT, which it appears they aren't, if they are marked down for getting calls right.

"I dont care if he gets the call right."

And that is the problem!

Yet you wonder why coaches/players may get fired up when a referee doesn't even care if the call is correct, as long as he supports his fellow ref and is standing in the right spot?

Reply #349925 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

"I dont care if he gets the call right."

And that is the problem!
The originally quoted person can correct me if I'm wrong (not a ref, haven't been reading the whole thread) but while you'd be right in this particular case, I think the originally quoted person is suggesting that it's the wrong process for refereeing as a whole.

e.g., the player comes down and jacks a low percentage shot at the wrong time, against the team's specific strategy, and it's gone in yet they can't see why their coach/teammates might be unhappy. "But it went in!"

Coach might say "I don't care if it went in, 80% of the time it won't. Sub please!"

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Anonymous  
Years ago

refs get paid don't hey on Friday's pretty sure coaches don't, not my call = cop out and don't want to take responsibility for my actions. Try doing that in the work place!

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Anonymous  
Years ago

925 pity you couldnt take that comment in context of the ball being on the furthest side of the court. Thanks for playing.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

anon #909,

Thats because the refs are picking and choosing ehich calls they make. All coaches work the refs in different ways because they know that the refs are trying to "manage the game" rather than call it even.

The original post was regarding a Firday night game where the probably senior/better refs just used a cop out rather than getting the game called fair and square as best it can be.

They are both problems. That need fixing.

Reply #349944 | Report this post


good  
Years ago

well done Isaac in reading what was written

"I don't care if the call is correct" means that it's great that the call is correct and good for the game if an official can look out side of there AOR to help there partner

BUT

if an official is regularly looking outside of there AOR then there is a good chance they are missing other calls in there primary area

so it's more of a learning tool for the future

coaches are always complaining about performance of officials but most of the time they dont take the time to understand how much Ref's do actualy care about doing a good job and continual improvement

most ref's also care a lot about the game in general

of course there are exceptions

-------------

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Ann  
Years ago

I do agree some times but last night at the arena the to ref on my game at 6.30 were the best ref I've had there in a long time, and it was the first time I went up to any ref to shake there hand good job last night to them.

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