Concerned
Years ago

103 to 1 in U12 Div 3????

What is going on when a team can win by this margin.

This Sturt team needs to be in Div 2, their scores indicate that they are way too strong for this div.
Their points are 623 for and 97 against.

Come on BSA make a change or kids will pull out of the game.

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hoopie  
Years ago

There should be something like a mercy rule or they stop counting the score after a certain point or the coach should instruct his players to only shoot threes or ... well, something anyway to reduce the difference between the teams.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Bylaws state u12 have got to play man to man D.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Really hoopie,

How would U12 div 3 teams shoot 3 pointers? The game would turn into a farce and the weaker team would be humiliated.

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Jack Toft  
Years ago

Looking at that competition, Sturt 3 have held two teams scoreless and two teams to a solo point. When scores like this occur, it is boring and not enjoyable for players and spectators. Without seeing the game, I suspect that Sturt would have double teamed the ball carrier in a hard full court press ALL GAME and been all over them in the back court. I suspect a one sided foul count with probably plenty of fouls not called as well as the refs get sick and tired of calling reaching fouls. Once players get to 4 fouls refs can be a little softer on them. Does anyone have access to the scoresheet? What was the foul count like?
The U12 Boys Div 3 is split between North and South. The issue is probably more related to the range of skill levels in the teams.
Once the game was in the bag, were Sturt pressing hard? Did they need to if they were? Were they aiming for the ton?

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KingJames  
Years ago

More importantly does the crowd get a free burger from HJ's if they reach the 100?

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True Hoop  
Years ago

Jack,

Considering this is district and not socail, and these kids would be trying to stake a claim in the Sturt Div 2 side, why shouldn't they play hard all game?

Surely this highlights that the elite district competition structure is failing, that these kids aren't moving to other clubs and that saomething needs to be done to correctly grade teams for the winter competition.

Also that the North/South structure alongside the guarenteed div 2 positions is failing to meet the competition measure and should be changed.

Either include promotion/relegation to div 2 or cut the North/South competition break up. Preferably do both.

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Jack Toft  
Years ago

True Hoop, I expect that the kids would be out to impress and a big part of that is following coaches instructions. If a kid is playing Div 3, then they should be aiming for Div 2, Div 2 aiming for 1's.

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True Hoop  
Years ago

Jack,

That is a little nieve dont you think. Following coaches instructions, but playing hard and scoring 30 points is going to look better than following coaches instructions and not playing hard and scoring 5 points.

Surely having such mismatched opponents is the major issue and things should be done to stop it from being an issue and allowing all player, strong or weak, to play at the level they are capable.

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Pallllllas  
Years ago

BSA bring this on themselves by saying there's no objective way to determine which team comes up if a club decides not to nominate a div 2 team in winter. Since no one making a decision about which team is to come up will go close to seeing any of these games, the only thing they have to go by is score sheets.

If beating a team 103-1 rather than 50-5 in a summer season game gets you the nod over the best northern based team, why wouldn't you do it? You have to give your kids the best chance of playing as high as possible right?

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Jack Toft  
Years ago

There is absolutely no doubt that there is a mismatch and the spread of skills in that competition is too wide. Sturt 3 and Tigers 3 are both winning by an average of over 40 ppg. Tigers 6 is losing by an average of 46. In the North pool, Woodville 3 is losing by an average of 53 ppg.

There is no denying, there is a problem with the balance of that competition. North-South was meant to reduce the travel for players (they are turning 10 and 11 this year), however, with that comes grouping of teams whose skills set range widely from Div 2 to Div 6 standard.

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p  
Years ago

Looking at the teams, a div 3 team played a div 5 team. Awesome work Bball SA!!! Your grading system is terrific!!!

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Anonymous  
Years ago

have div 1, then div 2 then div 3 then div 4 and nominate teams to play in the correct division

problem solved

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True Hoop  
Years ago

So Jack, whay is the answer then?

I would suggest that having promotion/relegation in div 2 and changing the North/South division until winter after teams are properly graded. And then only in competitions where there are at least 2 division of each North and South grades like in the 14 boys. Also, having an 8 team 21 round competiiton would benefit as well.

We all know what the problems are. They are the same problems we have been having for 20 years.

The issue is what are the solutions?

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hoopie  
Years ago

It's sad to think that u12s are put under this much pressure.

The emphasis should be on fun as much as possible until secondary school; otherwise, they'll burn out and stop playing (like when they leave school).

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True Hoop  
Years ago

hoopie,

There are 2 main paths for players.

Particpation level at Church, school and domestic type competition. I hope we would all agree that at this level players should all participate and enjoy themselves.

At the elite level players choose to participate at a competitive level. World Championships start at age 15/16 and to compete at this level you need more than 1 or 2 years of competitive basketball.

I essence I agree with your sentiment that these type of teams who are clearly too good for div 3 should be allowed to play in div 2.

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natwhereyouat  
Years ago

let me get something right here... "U12" means, Under 12s, right?

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Elite level? The elite level path has killed off more potential than it has put back in, time for a rethink. Across the junior ranks these beltings are happening every week across most if not all age groups and if that doesn't ring alarm bells then nothing will.Ten year olds want to experience the game for the game's sake not play for mum and dad's dreams of glory.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

350614, you are right in some cases but this isn't true in many cases. The kind of kids you speak of tend to play in lower divisions and in my experience generally this is inline with their level of achievement beyond basketball, ie it tends to be mediocre or at the lower end of the scale. Sorry as I'm sure this will annoy u but its the harsh reality.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Remember a 149 to 1, a 147 to 0 and a 143 to 1 series of games between two teams (top and bottom - different clubs) in a single season in the late 60's in u12 Metro A u12s boys ( Only 2 grades of u/12 then - District and metro A . )

That was with a zone defence. Even harder for total newbies to score against an experienced team playing zone rather than M2M.

Don't think any player in that losing team went on to play again.

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True Hoop  
Years ago

anon's.

Agree with what you are saying. And nobody is the winner in these games. We all believe that it is harming the sport.

And the issue really is in the competition structure that forces this to happen.

BSA actively stop these good players from playing in division 2 on the belief that they will move to other clubs. And also has divided the comeptiton to force those teams that they have forced into div 3 to compete against totally new players from other clubs, while at the same time not providing entry level comeptitions for these new players.

All in all, the kids losing by 100 will get dispondent and quit. The kids winning by 100 get bored and quit. And basketball will be worse off.

I would suggest using the summer competition to grade teams and then allow all teams to play in the competetion that suits their ability leading to closer game as being in the best interest of all teams. But obviously, some other people believe otherwise even though it has been an issue for more than 20 years in the sport.

I would suggest that zoning does not change this issue as it doesnt change the competiton structure, and no matter how you zone you will get good teams and bad teams.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

truehoop, how many players travel past their nearest club to get to their club of choice?
Not all that many in the lower divisions but in div 1 and 2 you will find a myriad of pressure on kids from clubs to travel a bit further to 'better clubs'.

The clubs themselves are ruining the game in their effort to grow which under current guidelines means having multiple div 2 and 3 teams. Irrespective of the crap expressed by these clubs the game stands still as do the majority of the div 2 and 3 players, as div 1 remains just as far away for these fringe players because better, stronger players div 1 players from other clubs are recruited in' to fit the bill when needed most of the time.

Your fear of zoning is shared by every one of the top clubs who will argue until blue in the face that it wont work because they do not want to loose numbers in the longer term. Zones are the only way a small insignificant sport like basketball can really grab a foot hold and become competitive.

Creating a moratorium for present players so they do not have to move and introducing zones would mean certainty, development and an end to poaching. It would by its nature assure a spread of talent. It would ensure the best road to competitive games and raise the standard across the board.

ABL like the NBL/WNBL is not attracting spectators because of many reasons but chief among them is because of the lack of loyalty of both club and player. Players changing clubs annually, clubs coming and going and the banner headlines that who ever has the dough this year will win. There is no interest in a comp that has no longevity, no roots and no feeling of 'my club' and 'my players'.

Case in point is the Lighning. A winning team that no one gives too hoots about. Their threads attract little interest and precious few response and they are winners! A put together team of champs for this year and most will be gone to other clubs next season. Not worth getting excited about is it?

Locally the CABL is even funnier. Who ever has the most NBL/WNBL players win. No rules, they are not paid are they and you can play for whatever team you like . Players can do the rounds so much they could get giddy.

Maybe, just maybe, bsa might do something pro active for our kids and then go on to do something even better for the young adults in CABL which might flow on to the NBL/WNBL.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Its the way system has been designed.

Move clubs the system is there for the Strong to Go to the Weak.

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Jackie C  
Years ago

What about this for an idea?
Only have a Division 1 in BSA age groups - in fact, call it the Basketball SA Championship.
Then instead of Divs 2-5 or whatever, have each club run its OWN domestic competitions for kids.
The winners of the domestic comps could then play a tourney for the BSA Adelaide Comp title.
Each club regularly could review its u10, 12, 14, 16, 18 domestic comps to see who should make their BSA Championship representative team for the club.
Just a thought.

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True Hoop  
Years ago

anon 350633,

I am not sure how many. The question you should be asking is not how many, but why do they move?

You allude to some form of 'myrid of pressure", can you explain what these are and why some clubs are able to use them and not others.

I would assume that at U10 and U12 level all clubs are able to recruit new players into the sport. And that they better job they do of developing those players and providing them with a 'product' they want means that they would stay.

Can you explain to me how 'zoning' would change that process?

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Anonymous  
Years ago

The system is designed for good players to move to weak clubs to play higher div.

The problem is North South Rubbish. It's wrong.

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True Hoop  
Years ago

Sorry, are you the same anon?

And can someone explain to me why the system would want any players to move clubs?

I would have though that the idea would be for all clubs to be abe to rectuir new players to the sport and for them to retain them if they provide a suitable service.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

I agree with True Hoop, though I believe that we should just run it like the Vic's, and have promotion relegation for ALL divisions - no guaranteed div 1 positions. Raise the limit of the number of teams a club can have in div 1 to 2.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

I agree with True Hoop, though I believe that we should just run it like the Vic's, and have promotion relegation for ALL divisions - no guaranteed div 1 positions. Raise the limit of the number of teams a club can have in div 1 to 2.

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True Hoop  
Years ago

anon.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but why would you stop there?

If the principles of even competition and reward fopr results hold true for greater development. Why not open it up to all teams?

Again, at U10 and U12 level all clubs have an equal ability to introduce players into the sport. Like all economic situations, a factor in choice will always initially be ease of entry and minimalisation of travel, along with procimity.

If it is the aim of all clubs to increase participation for the benefit of the sport as a whole, I fail to see why any restrictins would benefit.

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MikefromtheK  
Years ago

Maybe the team that lost by 100 shouldn't be playing in that division...
Also Jack Toft of course the coach would've been having the kids playing hard all game and encouraging them to do their best to thrash the other team by as much as they can. I played for Sturt as a junior and when i was in Div 3 in U12 and U14 we'd beat a lot of teams by 50+ and i was insulted that the players in the other teams were even playing in the same division as me and so was everybody else so it just made us want to thrash them more.

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MikefromtheK  
Years ago

Edit- That was almost 10 years ago when there were still 5 divisions in each age group and no north/south shit. BASA has regressed since then.

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.  
Years ago

pro / rel accross the board.

think you will find the kids just want to have a game at the level that they are at

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Hydra  
Years ago

Mike, I think you'll find that Jack was alluding to the fact that Sturt were always going to win against a much weaker opponent, so why go for the jugular?
The North-South thing is a great idea, but only works when teams are graded appropriately. Pro-Rel works well, but only when teams are stable.

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Really  
Years ago

SO the North/South thing 'doesnt work' because it is done in summer before teams are graded and in competitions where there are not sufficient teams to make the comeptition even in a competition where strong teams are not able to move up and out of that grade.

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concnerned  
Years ago

What sort of coach would maintain full court pressure for the whole game to win by such a margin. Coach must have a big ego.
Surely common sense would suggest that the sturt coach should have started defence from the 3 point line so the opponents could get the ball up the court.
Its U12 div 3 so why are we playing for sheep stattions

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Really  
Years ago

Because BSA will allow a second team into div 2 if a club fails to nominate.

But they also have North and South grades so the only possible way to choose between the two teams who are top in each grade is by total percentage.

If the coach doesn't go full court all game then his team might miss out on div 2 in winter.

It is a BSA screw up that MAKES the coach have to go full court all game. If the competition was better structured it wouldnt need to happen.

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hoopie  
Years ago

Concerned - fully agree. I doubt if it's the kids who are playing for sheep stations at that age.

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Really  
Years ago

You've clearly never watch 10/12 year old boys play sport then. They would love it.

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p  
Years ago

Pulling kids back to the 3 point line actually makes it easier to score, cause once you steal the ball, the floor is open for a lay-up. With a margin this big, i'd say the loosing kids probably struggle running as well as trying to play bball (not trying to be harsh). The score may of been worse. The fact is a team was playing another team 2 divisions lower. The system is wrong, nothing else.

True Hoop although you make a lot of sense I have to comment on "all clubs have an equal ability to introduce players into the sport".....No they don't, the easiest example here is the western suburbs. 3 clubs sharing the same area. If they combined they'd be dominant, but its never going to happen.

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True Hoop  
Years ago

Hi P and thanks.

Yes that idea is somewhat flawed by proximity, but that is the case for all clubs to some extent. But that is the case for all businesses.

And isnt it the case the Forestville, South and Sturt are all in a relatively close area. And 2 of those would be the biggest and strongest clubs and U10/12 level.

I am sure that each area has its own issues with regards to recruitment of players such a socially, financially and practically.

But essentially, all clubs have that opportunity. I would think that either West or Woodville have the ability to employ someone or hire an organisation that would be able to target all schools in their area, and therefore maximise their new memberships.

Surely people aren't suggesting that clubs like Forestville, Norwood and Sturt aren't recruiting players new to the sport from this area?

Or is that not the case?

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p  
Years ago

Hopefully someone in Management from all clubs or BSA reads that part about hiring someone True Hoop. Then if it happened bball may get bigger, better and stronger in this state.

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True Hoops  
Years ago

Coming from my background it is worrying that a lot of these issues have not been resolved in the restructuring and that a number of concners aren't adequately back by best practice decisions.

I stil have not had a valid argument put forward with regards to the 'zoning' debate. Just that it would stop 'pocahing'.

I am not sure that this stops clubs going out a recruiting new players into their club, and that if a Woodville (sorry Warrior people for using you as an example) were to recruit a very large and therefore potentially strong group of U10 and U12 teams that won games consistantly why people would just up and move.

And then if you are providing a satifying coaching program that links with SASI and State team, that gets result, why would a member leave and move to a club that they are unsure can provide a similar service.

Could Jack Toft or anon above respond and explain how 'zoning' of players entering the sport do anything to increase participation for any club and more importantly improve the sport.

Considering the dominance of Central District Football club in the SANFL I would have thought that there are other factors that have a greater inpact on the success of clubs.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

zones provide areas for recruiters to focus within.
zones provide boundaries that can be used to target their schools etc.
Zones ensure that players developed by a club stay with that club.
zones mean that talent is evenly spread.
zones mean that players are more likely to be placed in ability groups.
zones encourage club and player identity.
zones mean leagues can be properly founded and continued.
zones can be linked to country areas.
zones end the developed player recruiting.
zones equalize the clubs.
zones provide the foundation for success providing each club works.
zones need to be linked to junior development officers within clubs and money channelled towards juniors.
Zones would end the farce of junior dominance created through recruiting the best players from across the clubs.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

True Hoops is completely dominating this debate. Interesting points backed up with easily understood examples.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

765,
I don't see anything stopping the clubs doing any of the things you've mentioned under the current structure. Except either poor management or laziness, which you acknowledge with your "providing each club works" quote.

Proactive clubs are doing a lot of the things mentioned already.

How come Blackburn Vikings, a small club right in the mighty Nunawading Spectres backyard, have become one of the better clubs in recent years without zoning?
Or why has Diamond Valley become one of the strongest clubs, despite Eltham being reasonably close by? Good management, clever Basketball Operations appointments, and a ton of hard work.

Then again, whinging about other clubs DOES sound a lot easier...

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Hydra  
Years ago

"Coming from my background" True Hoops, what is your background? Are you from Sturt? You seem very wound up on this topic.

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True Hoop  
Years ago

anon #350765

Thanks for your input, those are the things read about with regards to zoning, but there is little reasoning behind why it would actually work.

How does zoning do all those things you claim.

For example;
1/ Why cant the recruiters focus near their club now? Surely all clubs should be doing that to increase growth and therefore produce good teams who would stay involved with a club due to success. All new entries into the sport would consider proximity when selecting a club, like in all markets
2/ Target school would always be those closest for all clubs. That would not change under either.
3/ How would zoning stop players from moving clubs? Are you suggesting that players who are dissatisfied with their current club should be lost to the sport rather than being allowed to move to another club? This would a) decrease the need for clubs to improve their service and b) stop players from moving to all clubs and decreae participation rates.
4/ How would talent be evenly spread? Some club who are doing a better job in their area would have more talent than others.
5/ How would they be placed into ability groups? If club A has a number of good players and club B does not, this cannot change through market forces, nor time. if you only get 7 players, you would only have 7 players and grading them would have similar difficulties.
6/ How does zoning develop club and player identity? Our clubs aren't really alligned with SANFL football area's and if they were you would have players actually travelling longer for games and trainings. And most people entering the sport would not know of clubs unless they already had an affiliation.
7/ Why do you need zoning for leagues? Again disrupting market forcus would decrease the ability to setup competition due to 'critical mass' being potentially bigger than the zoned area allows in the short term while also decreasing incentive to provide a marketable product.
8/ What is the benefit of linking to country area's? Unlike football that has millions of dollars from television at AFL level, clubs would be unable to similarly service these areas, negating the need for country areas to have metro based clubs.
9/ If zoning stops all players moving, all it does in decrease participation rates. If player movement is allowed then player recruitment will occur. The only way to stop players from moving is to provide a better level service and keep customers happy.
10/ How does it equalise clubs? If one clubs does nothing in its zone, that club will not improve compared to another club. That will be the same without zoning.
11/ How does it provide the foundation for success, what economic principles does this come from? What examples do yuo have of this occurring?
12/ Why cant club focus development officers/recruitment officers from their current junior program funds?
13/ How would zoning end the farce that is the current junior competition? Just saying it does not make it so.

If club A works hard and puts their resources into recruitment and development, under either process they will exprience success. If club B does not they will struggle.

Example; (sorry to South this time)
If South have 21 U10 girls enter the club next year. They are well tained and likely would have success and the club provides good admin and coach development for these teams. Then they are unlikely to move. If at U12 level in 2 years time, the club continues to provide an improved program of coaching and the team is again successful, can someone please explain why these players would not have a deep rooted club affiliation and would consider moving to another club?

However if they provide substandard admin and coaching, in all likely hood, they would consider moving to a better run and more professional organisation. And this is how clubs know that they are not doing a good job and that there is a need for a change in product.

If zoning occurs, what mechanism can be used to explain why a club is not doing well, has a lack of numbers, and what can be done to improve them, the only answer is increasing their zone size, while decision and effort are the only real answer. So even if you increase their zoned area, all it will do is decrease particiaption rates, decrease standard, and therefore the over level of basketball in clubs the State.

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True Hoop  
Years ago

Sorry no. Just a background in government management in understanding econometrics.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

They do focus on the areas near their clubs now and develop players who are recruited to play for bigger clubs.

yes I'm saying you must play for your zoned area and thats what zones are.

Talent would stay in the zoned areas. Take a look at how many kids are encouraged to move from one div 1 club to another.

Im tired of the debate and dont really care if the self destructive hold sway because frankly the big clubs control the strings and it will remain so.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

The plan is working BSA. Soon kids will move to other clubs even the playing field and create a stronger competition.

YOU MUST HOLD!!!

Reply #350785 | Report this post


Really  
Years ago

Thats been exactly the thinking for 20 years.

Why would it happen now after 20 years of evidence to the contrary.

Reply #350787 | Report this post


Hydra  
Years ago

econometrics, sounds complicated.

I am correct in assuming you are a coach and/or committee member?

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Government Management: There is an oxymoron if ever I heard one.

Once again people make a statement or assertions and then base a whole raft of logical conclusions thereon. Pity we do not challenge these assertions!!

Reply #350795 | Report this post


True Hoop  
Years ago

anon #350795,

Couldnt agree more. What I actually do is show them how badly they are spending their money and how they could have more broadly benefited the state though other decisions by measuring the outcome of decisions.

anon #350776,

What statistical evidence do you have of this happening? What are being used as incentives for players to move?

And what information is being sort from these clubs to assertain why players move. It seems very easy for a club to say someone got 'poached' when really they left due to being unhappy with the product.

Looking at the current situation it seems that Woodville and West players move between clubs. That North and Norwood players move between clubs and that South, Sturt and Forestville players move between club.

Outside of that, the number of movements would be minimal. Yes they would occur, but minimal.

Again the question I have is; What are those clubs who players are moving from doing about improving their product and developing strategies to stop it happening in the future.

Sure all clubs are run by volunteers, but in essence, this should be all clubs main odjective.

Improve their product!

Reply #350814 | Report this post


p  
Years ago

For those that like zoning, look at this way. I know of a 9 year boy who lives closer to the 2 biggest and successful clubs but prefers to play were he is, in a smaller battling club, where he travels a bit futher to play for(would be a walk up starter in any team). He has been approached by one of these clubs. He does not want to move and his reasoning in his words "i do not want to play for them, i'd rather work hard and beat the best, than have it easy in their teams".

In this case: zoning would make a dominate team even better if he were to move and a struggling team even worse.

Perhaps if more kids had this attitute there may be more movement, these div 3 players may move to another club and the talent may be more evenly spread. But its up to these kids to what they want to do, they may be happy were they are, playing with their mates, and have no care factor about div 1. Remember not everyone plays club bball to be in div1 or make ABA, they just play cause they enjoy it.

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Really  
Years ago

What I find funny is that those people who are claim that zoning is the seviour are the same ones that dont want double div 1 and 2 so that kids omve their clubs.

Somewhat hypercritical.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Sorry p, but I do not believe that anyone in any official position at ANY club (big or small) is approaching a 9 year old. I think you are making it up.

Reply #350877 | Report this post


p  
Years ago

877......why would i bother making it up? what gain would i have in making in up? Care factor = Zero if you dont believe.

Reply #350882 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

sign up that nine year old folks he's gold.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

North / South is to blame. It's rubbish and a joke.

Play promo relegation if you want but at least play everybody once.

Then Play finals Top 2 Div 4 Play bottom 2 Div 3, Top 2 Div 5 play bottom 2 Div 4 etc etc winners play in higher division for Winter Season.

Make the season worth something not a meaningless number of internal trial games.

I am sure the Norwood U14 Boys Div 3 would like to play someone else rather than themselves 4 teams in one pool out of 6. What a joke.

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hog46  
Years ago

#877, you have your head in the clouds if you don't think this happens, and yes, even with nine year olds. It is absolutely happening with kids that young, and this is fact.

Reply #350970 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Just because you say it's so does not make it "fact". I have not seen or heard ANY evidence to suggest it happens, other than the wailings "that it happens" against some club to suit a point of view.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Good comment there is no talent scout hunting down players and recruiting them.

Reply #350998 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

hog46, you are correct. When my son was in U12 at Club "A", I was approached by the coach of Club "B" after the game when I was getting a coffee and he said. "your son has a lot of potential and if he got some better coaching at "B", we could help him reach his potential" Is that not considered poaching?

Reply #351001 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I agree with the above comment - same thing happened to my son and I in 2nd year U10's!!!

Reply #351007 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Parents ego's taking a compliment and turning it into "MY son/daughter is going to be a superstar"

Reply #351009 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Too true. Still no evidence, no names, no clubs.

What a suprise...

Reply #351012 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Just bury your head in the sand anon above.

Reply #351016 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

you sturt people make us laugh with your oversized egos. Get back in your toorak tractors and let the people who have the big picture of youth and participation in mind discuss the important issues.

Reply #351017 | Report this post


Dirty Sturty  
Years ago

Yeah sure,

Cause I'm sure your club has a 15 team domestic program devoted to particpation like Sturt.

I'm sure your club has a youth development program that had a club junior in every National junior squad.

And I'm sure that your club isn't sitting around moaning about other peoples success and getting on with your work rather that aimlessly bitching on the internet.

What important issues are you actually disucussing rather than trying to cut down the tall poppy that is Sturt?

Reply #351025 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Why not ask PM why he keeps speaking to girls from other clubs. Does that mean you will cast aside loyal juniors whom you have given up on in delivering future state champs on the girls side. Is that how you treat your juniors - they are a useful commodity but you will go out and recruit above them if you have too. Surely your development program should be able to develop them as much as other teams programs do to have kids you want to poach.... umm sorry I mean recruit.

And as for your development where are all the boys who won the U14 nationals about 6 years ago. With that talent and ongoing development you shouldn't have a problem in your ABA team especially when you had the best group of 6 U14's back then. How is that group progressing now?

Reply #351030 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

getting on with work - good one dirty - 26 comments all protecting sturt by you. Maybe you don't work. Maybe mummy and daddy you work for! or just maybe you are on a free ride in life.
Bit like sturt huh

Reply #351032 | Report this post


Dirty Sturty  
Years ago

anon,

Has your club not recruited from another? Let yeah who has not sinned cast the first stone. All clubs recruit, some are just better at it.

Let me know what club you are from and I will happily point out your recruits.

As for our ABA team. 1 of those boys is playing college in Canada and trained in the U19 National squad and played for GB's U20 team in europe. 2 others will player major roles in ABA this year, and 3 other players are doing well in football.

Our ABA issue is not if we are producing players, but rather we are producing players that are too good to go stay.

If all the Sturt Senior mens were not so good they needed to play at a higher level than ABA you would have a line up of;

Tom Dalt - NBl development
Corey Maynard - Div 1 college
Claybrin McMath - Div 1 college
Oscar Foreman - NBL
Jacob Holmes - NBL
Brad Hill - NDL
Drew WIlliamson - NBL
Jan Warbout - NBL development player
Josh Owen-Thomas - Div1 College Canada

How much fun would that be for everyone else?

Reply #351033 | Report this post


Dirty Sturty  
Years ago

wow anon,

Talk about a chip on your shoulder. I will now go and cry a little tear for you. :(

But that stereo typing you might as wll suggest all West Adelaide players are born to whafies and Mavs players are farmers. Clearly non-sensicle and plainly stupid. But hay, whatever you need to do.

If haters didnt hate, defenders wouldnt need to defend like a sturt full court press.

Reply #351035 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

The two you mentioned are limited minute bench players at best.

As for the one in college in Canada - Norwood junior first I think and another from Vic.

I know who has moved across to us and we do not have one in our Div 1 teams nor do we want to build a club on disloyal foundations be it player to club or club to player!!

And by ommission I guess you agree and condone poaching, sorry, recruiting undertaken by Sturt and forcing down into lower grades loyal club players.

Reply #351036 | Report this post


Dirty Sturty  
Years ago

Well actually, I seem to recall one of them started games last year and the other will play more this year. While the one in college played U12's at Sturt and was hardly poached, considering his father played at North and not Norwood.

Good to see you are unwilling to name your club because you know that there are recruits in Div 1 and senior level.

I have no problem with it because everyone is doing it, even your club, just some are better at it than others, like all things basketball.

Reply #351037 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

What a way to treat kids.

You should all think about it.

If you want to change clubs do it.

If you are unhappy move.

If you are wanting to just participate. Find another sport.

Reply #351038 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Oh my how stupid of me - I didn't understand what poaching was. So because OT's father played for North and his son played for Norwood when he went to Sturt then that doesn't count as recruiting.

In that case because I played football at Glenelg and obviously my child doesn't play basketball for Glenelg then he wasn't being attempted to be poached by Sturt because I played at a different club.

I humbly apologise for misunderstanding the terminology and difference used by Sturt to justify what is or what is not recruiting.

Reply #351039 | Report this post


Dirty Sturty  
Years ago

Feel free to name your club and allow me to retort.

Obviously all clubs have 'poached' at some point, your silence is testiment to your guilt.

OT was not poach, his family approached Sturt, feel free to ask his father.

Reply #351040 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

So...still not ONE name of a "9-year-old" player poached, or approached, by ANY club. What a suprise...

Reply #351041 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Sturty, there is no way he will name his club, because he knows that ALL clubs have Div 1 players that previously played for another club.

Not that any of them were "recruited", just that they looked elsewhere to get what they were after, in both directions. Of course, it's easier to blame the "big bad scary monster" than to seek answers as to why players want to leave a club...

Reply #351042 | Report this post


Dirty Sturty  
Years ago

Oh and by the way, are you claiming that his development was compete by the age of 9 years, and that he didnt learn to play at Sturt? Which was the argument. That seems rather odd.

Reply #351044 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

You can't name kids at that age!!

I just want an answer to how do you tell a loyal player who has been in your Div 1 program for x years that sorry you are not good enough to get the club what they want (distinct from what a player wants) and we are going to recruit someone better from another club. Any answers or do you only pay lip service to having a happy little club

Reply #351045 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Well if you know everything about every club why not start naming all the Div 1 juniors at each club who started elsewhere. I will sit and wait!!

Reply #351046 | Report this post


Dirty Sturty  
Years ago

Isnt that what elite competition is about, competeing.

Do you tell your U10 div 1 players that no matter what you will be in div 1 in U18's.

Reply #351047 | Report this post


Dirty Sturty  
Years ago

Just name your club and make it easy!

I am more happy to not name those clubs that choose to not hate!

Reply #351050 | Report this post


rick  
Years ago

I'm sick of these precious parents who think recruiting is wrong. It's just a part of sport. I'd love to see an Adelaide 36ers team full of only Adelaide players .. but i'd rather see them recruit talent and win than see that.
Every club recruits to some degree. I don't think sturt do it more than other clubs... they just do it better. Both their ABA teams are filled with thorough bred sturt juniors so their is no doubt they are loyal to their junior players.

Reply #351051 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Maybe you should have a look at your U16 girls team tonight and then you might know why someone within your club is targetting U16 girls from other clubs.

I guess the onky thing which is going to save Sturt this year in State Champs is to recruit very quickly or hope they have a big influx of country kids which have been developed in the country

Reply #351052 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

let's clarify comment above and change the wording "is targetting" to "was targetting" -

Reply #351053 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

ok well let's start with Norwood

Reply #351054 | Report this post


Dirty Sturty  
Years ago

haha anon,

you are clearly not from Norwood.

Try again and be a bit more truthful.

Reply #351055 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Obviously I am not from Norwood if I claim we have no recruited players within our Div 1 teams. Norwood could hardly claim that!!! :)

Reply #351056 | Report this post


Dirty Sturty  
Years ago

Nobody can claim that!

Which is why you wont tell you clubs name.

Because you will be seen as a hypocrite.

Reply #351057 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

must be from Southern then Sturty. no one wants to go there

Reply #351059 | Report this post


Dirty Sturty  
Years ago

You mean except for the U18 girls tam that Boti recruited over the last 2 years.

Sorry, try again! You are merely hiding behind your own hypocrocy.

Reply #351062 | Report this post


Dirty Sturty  
Years ago

You mean except for the U18 girls tam that Boti recruited over the last 2 years.

Sorry, try again! You are merely hiding behind your own hypocrocy.

Reply #351063 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

You guys have gone off on a tangent. The isssues is why lopsided results are on the increase and probably why the junior girls is in such a mess.
All clubs, all clubs sniff around top quality div 1 players and get a feel for how happy the kids are. Some clubs promise the earth because they have an inside running on SASI and state but all clubs would poach if they could....fullstop.

No coach I know from any club would look at an U10 player for 'recruitment' because district div 1 u 10 is a run and nearly gun bullshit league where they begin their enjoynment of the sport and learn the fundamentals. No guns there just kids whose physical development puts them ahead of other.

Some coaches at 14 to 18 have spent their life recruiting players from other clubs. Without put down intended its just fact. The poaching laws are worse than laughable and unenforceable thus its legal in intent and practice.

Pro/rel versus zoning is the issue and the clubs cannot agree on the direction and BSA was born without balls so stalemate of the sport exists.
While I see the merit of both I can also see one spells the end of small clubs.

District basketball across boys and girls but particularly girls is at a very weak and low standard.very few of the teams across the girls are really district div 1 standard. In the boys they are undersized in general.

The standard is impacted by several major factors, one being the lack of weekly competition to drag the best out of players and teams thus creating lopsided scorelines which parents translate as 'exceptional talent' syndrome. The second is the major fall out of interest in basketball at the school level where as a game its not seen in playgrounds like it used to be and thirdly as a sport for girls it's on the nose with thee once accepted drop out rate falling to U 16 from u18's.

The BSA model of get them interested at cheap and introductory association levels is a farce and the north/south is a miserable disaster.
The U23s played centrally on one night is an excellent idea but scheduling games at 10 on a weeknight is another issue that is causing concerns.

Football, soccer and netball are on the rise and basketball keeps shooting itself in the foot. Parents will tell you the worst of basketball is the travel and Starplex, Southern and Mount Barker, are massive No's to the sport when coupled with late Friday night games.

There have been no major changes to basketball since BASA was established and the loss of our stadium, our two WNBL/NBL club ownerships and standing still are all that we have to show for it.

North still play in a shed as to south and wests have a bigger shed. Air conditioning is for sooks and all BAS can do is bung money in for Ms Jackson.

100 to 1 thrashings happen and will always happen but they should not be the norm and they very much are.

Unless sturt, norwood and forestville can see the big picture and understand that their growth is at the expense of the game nothing will change. I dont give two shits about who wins what but I am afraid that it is the only motivation of these clubs whose vision is inward.

BSA must agree in principal with a lopsided comp.

Personally I believe that the clubs need to rationalise their predicament and that four clubs need to shut their doors and that six clubs is the maximum number that Adelaide can accommodate.

Reply #351064 | Report this post


half full or half empty ?

Reply #351068 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

They play again on Sat. Anyone got a bet on Sturt winning by more than 50 this week.

Reply #351070 | Report this post


Really  
Years ago

So you expect clubs like Sturt Norwood and Forestville to NOT want to get bigger and compete with the Victorian/NSW/WA/QLD clubs.

Surely thats some kind of joke.

The reason basketball cant move forward is that most clubs lack any real growth vision and people like you want it to be happy campers and wait for those clubs who have no idea to work it which will probably be never.

Clubs either need to work it out, or go under like in every other place.

Reply #351102 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Bigger does not necessarily mean better or even best e.g. Norwood

I believe these two clubs, one in particular, claim they need better competition but then they go out and diminish the competition. Maybe the smart thing for them is to allow clubs to retain their better players in the thought that the overall competition will improve week in and week out hence giving the competition which they say they want

Reply #351120 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Yall happy with a 1 point win?

Reply #351125 | Report this post


Really  
Years ago

Sooo, they should turn players away? Not gonna happen. If clubs did a better job, they wouldn't leave.

Reply #351132 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Let's be clear here - I have nothing with players moving clubs if the move is initiated by the parents as obviously they are seeking more than what they are getting from their current club. BUT the active speaking to players at other clubs which is not initiated by the player should be frowned upon. Inducements should even be frowned more especially if some clubs may be using concessions from BSA to offer benefits to potential recruits.

Doesn't happen you say - then you know very little about what goes on

Reply #351139 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

BSA the plan is working as you start to process the transfers from top to bottom to even the competition. Eg Trade window is about to open.

I think there should be a two week break and clubs hold trials and transfers are processed. That way the cattle (oops kids)have time to move.

The next stage is to improve facilities eg ROCKETS Tin Shed!!!!!!!!!!!



Reply #351231 | Report this post


Really  
Years ago

Except that you will see more people leave the weaker clubs due to being unhappy than you will see move to then just to play div 1/2.

Reply #351240 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

The summer season/winter season shuffle is starting. I know one player in U16 who is looking to move clubs.

Reply #351245 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

U12, U14, U16 will be a lot busier this year than most. The BSA plan is working with lots of moves from Top3 clubs to minnows.

Reply #351336 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

351336, I dont think its the result of any grand master plan by BSA! BSA don't care too much about balance in the competition, they do care about growth in affiliations.

It always goes in cycles!!! Complacency. general arrogance and lack of ability to move with the the times kicks into a lot of environments whilst new structures, agility, harder work and general excitement and forward momentum are characterstics of some of the minnows....

Reply #351339 | Report this post


Really  
Years ago

No it wont.

It will be the same, the good kids from smaller clubs who are unhappy to lose each week, and see their U16/18 doing worse as time goes on will move to bigger clubs.

Why would someone leave success? It hasnt happened for 20 years, isn't about to start now.

If you were happy with your mobile carrier would you swap? if your moble carrier were doing a poor job, would you swap?

Reply #351340 | Report this post


Jack Toft  
Years ago

"Why would someone leave success?" That is the bottom line.

There is a "cycle of doom" with anything, be it sport, business, life etc. When you are successful, success breeds success. When you're struggling, morale goes down and then people get itchy feet and aspire to surround themselves with success. Only the strongest moves from a position of success to create success elsewhere. It's easier to stay and be a passenger than be a leader. That's no a go at anyone, that's just human nature.

That is why the challenge is not the weaken the strong, but to strengthen the weak.

Reply #351341 | Report this post


True Hoop  
Years ago

Well put Jack,

It is human nature. So to expect people to move from success is a philosophical dilema that BSA cant get their head around.

I feel that the way to do it is from the bottom up. If a club gets a bunch of U10 and U12 players in who have success, then they wont leave. In their minds the other clubs would be the weak and there would no reason to change. For the same reason that works for bigger stronger clubs at higher levels currently. Remember these kids from the 'bigger clubs' have had success each year they have played.

Then if clubs do a good job in servicing them and providing coaching that contiues success, not only will their current players not leave, but they might have good players come knocking on their door.

The issue as I see it is, weaker clubs are looking for quick fixes like ABA programs where you can buy championsips and intervention from BSA through zoning and assistance. However, the more assistance people get, the less they think that hard work and effort are important to success, and therefore the less success they will have.

I would suggest that the bigger/better clubs (see Forestville and Sturt) activley recruit at U10/12 level from their local area and have success in these are groups. I actually cant remember when someone else won U10 boys or girs though Im sure it has happened at some point like back when Noarlunga had good success.

So the issue is not zoning or assitance, but rather priorities and putting more resources into U10 and U12 recruitment and development. Each time a club spends $1 on their ABA program they are not spending it on their U10/12 recruitment and development. Each time a coach wants to do U16/18's they are not really helping the club in the future, changing that mentality is the key to success. Because the rewards for doing it are long term and not there for the individual.

Reply #351353 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Does this mean True Hoop won the thread?

Reply #351603 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

it means no one gives a damn. true hoops, jack and the cat in a hat believe in santa

Reply #351616 | Report this post




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