That should have read 'Starting Frontcourt' - although with Cooper being told to look elsewhere, 4 of 5 starters on the 11/12 squad are gone.

Ah that's 3 out of 5 from the starting group.

What's our boy Madgen doing? Adelaide 36ers?

Sydney Kings: YOUR NEW STARTING PG/SG and COACH

SHANNNNNNNEEEE HEALLLLLLLLLLL

That wouldn't work anonymouse because he can't even pass to himself.....

Bose should concentrate on developing his game before he chases $

I'd chase Grant for the right $$

Yes Mystro, cause the NBL is notorious for developing top European players.....

If the Khazzouh rumour is true then they should be trying to re-sign Grant IMO.

all he does is flop and jack up 3's and Anon in regards to your NBL development jibe, did Nielson, Newley and Ingles and Barlow not play NBL before going to Europe?

"did Nielson, Newley and Ingles and Barlow not play NBL before going to Europe?"

They all played several NBL seasons. But then none of them went to college.

Barlow played college ball.

Thanks, didn't realise that.

ineedmore - Heal never passed to anyone else, why do you think he would try and pass to himself??

Yeah, just the one year at Metro State in 2002. Barlow then played 7 NBL seasons before going to Europe, Nielsen 8 seasons, and Newley 3 seasons.

I thought Kazakhstan was in the FIBA Asia zone. Will Bose be able to play as a local in Europe?

Cooper has been told to stay in sydney and work with Heal with a veiw to playing back uop minutes behind import in 4 guard rotation of:

Bruce, Cooper, Martin, Import

Aaron wants to stay in Syd & Marty doesn't want him so forget about getting him back.

Jules is gone after the Golden State arguement with Kings Management (Remember they refused to pay him whislt away)

Dann has 1 more year on his deal, but after the issue with his knee and making him pay his own excess after surgery he is unhappy.

Mystro: while I agree that Bose would really benefit from another standout season in the NBL before heading overseas (I thought the same thing about FIBA Asia as well, one of the reasons he didn't head over there from college?), you've obviously got the opposing fan goggles on with regards to the rest of his game... Great reach, exciting player that hustled his arse off, always in top 3 rebounds... Once he cut out the playing for the fouls moves and got his head on straight, he was a huge threat for us...

Hopefully the options will not be that plentiful and there might be a chance that he comes back... I'm just not sure of the timing between seasons, as they're still playing in most leagues at the moment, aren't they? You don't want to be waiting around forever for a player that might still run off, but you also don't want to shut the gate on them...

I'm really disappointed at hearing that Kings management, even though they could have been technically in the right, by the letter of the contracts, although I can't see how in the case of Dann's injury, it just sucks to hear other clubs really making an effort to look after their players and their families and then you get people behind the scenes being petty and not acting for the best in the grand scheme of things...

TW, you talk of the Bruce, import, Cooper and Martin as a 4-guard rotation, but Madgen is also contracted. Is he trying to get a release?

Tom Abercrombie is the best athlete in the league, have you seen how much he has developed his game in the last 2 years? He finished the season as the 3rd best 3 point shooter in the league, great defensive skills and a mid range game to go with his Dunking ability. Bose and Creek both have just as much potential.
Abercrombie has been nurtured and allowed to grow his game in the NBL and has his clubs blessing to further his game in europe or the nba later down the track. Europe isn't development leagues, he (Bose) will earn x amount and sit on the bench for x amount of minutes behind players with a much more rounded game. I think Adelaide have put to much on Creeks shoulders too soon also. He deserves minutes for sure, has a decent skillset but he should be working on a heap of his weaknesses so that he can lead his team when he is ready. I've already seen posts on here rubbishing him for his performances in games on a wooden spoon team when he's still only a kid really. Abercrombie never had to try be the best player on the court as a development player/rookie, it came with practice. Bose should resign for 2/3 more seasons with a NBA/Europe outclause in the event he gets headhunted with a great offer and work on everything while he can.

Hit post too soon lol.

With a more rounded game he'll have more opportunity to sign on a better team and get more minutes to prove himself on a bigger stage and get paid big $. Otherwise he can sign for an average team, get sweet f/a minutes but get paid better than the NBL but be just another bench warmer

Mystro, important to note that Bose's passport allows him to play in some European leagues as a local. Some of them are lower standard than the NBL, some are similar and some are higher.

He may sign somewhere where he gets more of the ball than at Sydney, or as you say a club where he is a reserve, or anywhere in between the two.

Great points, Mystro, and this is really what I was hoping Toly would think too... Get better here, get more responsibility and then go and earn the bigger bucks OS, as really sitting on the bench doesn't do anyone any favours, and if reports are true, he was earning decent coin over here already, so a couple of seasons of that, build up a big profile and go over as an import and actually get the playing time...

Nothing annoys me more than young aussies going over there and just warming a seat right down the edge of the bench when they are capable of much more, especially our Boomer level players like AJ Ogilvy...

Abercrombie had the benefit of sitting behind Kirk Penney for years and being able to grow his game... Another good example really, is Kirk... Play well and become a star over here and you don't need to worry about a dual passport, you'll get your chance over there no matter what...

Anonymous, that's a pretty hot tip, seeing as how nearly every media conference Heal was in last season was saying that the Kings needed an import PG ;)

Yeah, Heal has been very high on Madge, so I would be surprised if there is a place for Cooper.

Have heard Heal doesnt mind Bruce, just doesnt want to spend decent money on him. If other big names are leaving that may change, because Aaron is one of the top 25-30 players in the league and the Kings will desperately need some local talent if they are without Bose and Khazzouh.

Wookie, problem for Ogilvy is he is playing in Spain which is easily the best national league in Europe.
Last year in Turkey he playerd big minutes, Baynes in Greece plays big minutes.

It's a balance. Do you want to be at a big club in a top league? If so you will really have to earn your stripes, those clubs are above the level of the NBL.

Or, do you go to a similar standard league to the NBL (or a lower one ala Majok) and actually play? The paycheque probably isnt as high, that's the balance.

BTW, I agree re developing here and then going. Penney played in Europe before he played NBL, but improved much more in the NBL than over there. Few of our players in Europe have greatly improved their games as you would expect from guys their age.

Mystro.
Newley isn't a top European player, Ingles is a bench warmer at Barca. Nielsen had some good years. Barlow went to college.
Even so, 4 in the last 10 years? Hmm pretty good track record?

Andersen bolted from the NBL asap because he knew his game would better develop in Europe. Arguably one of our best exports to Europe over the years one would think?

Game styles are different in every country in Europe, which makes the Euroleague font to watch. NBL style, not so much. You'd think a player like Bose will thrive in Europe after a few years.

^ you just bagged most of the best players Australia has produced in the last 10 years bar Bogut/Jawai/Mills. If they are shit over there then why should anyone bother?

Anderson chases money around the world

Anon: was the Abercrombie/Creek/Bose comparison off track or not appropriate in my argument? Sorry I thought this was a Basketball Forum and I mentioned a basketball player who is pretty good and plays for a team I support.

Newley went from the NBL and was one of the better swingman in Greece and Turkey. His last couple of years he has struggled for minutes as his three-point shot deserted him.

Ingles went from the NBL to Granada in the ACB, Europe's best national league, and was one of his team's best players (2nd in scoring, 1st in assists), even though he struggled for consistency as he had in the NBL. His efforts were enough to get him a contract with arguably the best team in Europe though.

Jawai went from the NBL to the NBA, then was a good starter on a Euroleague team.

Barlow went from the NBL to the tough ACB as an import and was third in scoring and second in rebounding on his team.

Penney went from the NBL and is sixth in scoring in the ACB.

Imports like McKee, Rowland, Darden, Melzer, Ere and Low have stepped straight out of the NBL and been very good players in good European leagues.

If anything, the output of Aussies who go to Europe is at its best when they first step out of the NBL and drops off over time. Possibly because of scouting and/or moving to powerful Euro teams with better rosters.

The NBL is well known as a recuiting ground by European clubs as players who perform well here will generally do so there.

My memory may be dodgy, but didn't Axel Dench head to Europe pretty early in his career? Was he successful?

Khazzouh is another who headed overseas after only a couple of years in the NBL (not counting 1994, given he barely played that year). He only spent a year away though. I wouldn't call that a successful overseas career.

Andersen is really the only one I can recall who left the NBL very early in his career (after 1 season), headed overseas and did well. He'd been to the AIS but not to USA college.

Wouldn't be a bad thing to clean out Sydney. Not exactly a consistent bunch, who only turn up to play when the foot up the backside has been delivered. Kuzz goes missing too often. Bose plays likes it soccer, taking dives and complaining to the refs all game.

Madden is only one who plays with real passion, but he needs a creator to help. Kings need an import point guard with ability to hit threes.

Keep Grant, he's the real deal, and find a decent power forward to match with him.

Also need more help at 3 point line. CJ proved that's what helps break open games, when he delivered down the stretch in the final.

Also need a real hustle player like a Vukona. Kings really missed that this year, with Kazz the ultimate soft player.

Then they just need to play defense. Not a Heal strong suit, but at least he can charge up the troops, unlike moose.

Plenty of talent coming out of college to look at, so reducing cost a good thing.

Kuzz was payed to trial with Golden State, so he has little to complain about. He wasn't with the team.

Should be interesting month of transactions coming up in NBL. Tigers have already started the ball rolling.

Paul: Ingles team was dead last.
Barlows not much better.
Putting up number on shitty teams equating to not even playing on good ones (ingles barcas)

IM ALL for kids from Australia to go to europe earlier. Better coaches, better leagues. Two a day trainings are not too good for the body, but great for young players like Bose.

Proof is in the pudding on how NBL players that have only played NBL do at international tournaments.


Mystro: Yes Andersen chases money, just like anyone on this board would do if they were offered triple or quad triple of what they are earning to change states/countries.

As much as Cadee would like to return to Sydney,he'll have to cool his heels for one more season somewhere as Kings are top heavy in that department. Def a place in 13/14 if he can organise himself to be available then.I expect him to re-sign with the Blaze.

Where would you put Wortho who played, but was not successful, overseas? Cut from 2yr contract in Germany (altho Bose won it) and transferred in Puerto Rico after handful of games. Came home before end of that season for family reasons.His NBL career has been excellent and about to be picked for Olympics number 2. How is his International career rated?

Actually a lot of guys have played for less in the NBA than what they could get in Europe just because they want to play the best in the best league.

"Proof is in the pudding on how NBL players that have only played NBL do at international tournaments."

you not see Vukona or Abercrombie at the world champs? Apparently they wouldn't even get a look in @ the Boomers and they held their own.

yes, but I've also yet to see an NBL player dominate a tournament at a WC or Olympics. Andrew Gaze maybe the only one, but even he tried his craft overseas.

Surely you are not trying to argue the NBL is a higher level than Europe/Euroleague?

No one is arguing that. Very few players from any league outside the NBA dominate international tournaments (though one was a Breaker named Kirk Penney), so that point really is moot.

Ingles' team finished 10th of 18 with a 15-19 record, just two games out of the playoffs.
Barlow's team won Div 2 and then finished 10th in the ACB with a 16-18 record. Hardly shitty teams, in fact overachieving teams helped by their Aussies' strong play.

Sorry mouse but your arguments don't stack up. The performances of players who step from the NBL into good European leagues hold up very well. So now you've changed your argument from NBL players not being able to perform well in Europe to NBL players not being able to dominate internationally.

How would you rate the performances of our European based players at the 2010 world champs? They certainly weren't better than Vukona or Abercrombie. They weren't better than what sBruton produced at the previous world champs.

Nielsen's biggest production came at the 2004 Olympics and his best years in Europe were his first couple out from the NBL. Sorry mate, there just isn't any evidence to suggest Bose will necessarily develop better in Europe, whether it be in a league better, equal or worse then the NBL.

How many of those guys who step up and do well from NBL to Europe, have also been to US College?
Is it even relevant?

Andersen took a paycut to play NBA. Looks good on his resume though and he was a big part of the Houston rotation for a while there.

A big bored hypothetical here. Crosswhite hasn't re-signed in Cairns yet. Khimky are moving up to the Euroleague and may want to upgrade Nielsen's import spot, and buy him out as Olympiakos did. If both returned to the Kings you get two excellent rebounders, defenders and passers who are very unselfish. Two imports and Madgen plus those two equals a good quintet.

Massive IF I know, but Heal is going to have to pull off something of this magnitude if Khazzouh, Bruce, Bose and Grant are all gone. That's a lot of talent right there.

I could imagine Hammer selling it to Nielsen - 'come back while you've got something left in the legs, we're back live on channel 10, we're getting 5-6k per game, let's put the Kings back on the map with a championship baby!'

Matt Nielsen is building a very nice house in South Perth and due to be finished very soon. Surely he will be in WA for his next Australian gig?

Again, I would say Bruton in 08 was better than most of the euro based boomers at the 2010 WCs. He was the main reason we got past Russia and into the QFs, led the team in assists and steals, had the second best ass:to ratio in the tournament and shot the 3 far better than all perimeter guys in the main rotation in 2010.

Given the discussion is about how NBL players perform internationally, the comparison of NZ players is clearly relevant and a long way from apples and oranges. Vukona and Abercrombie play against exactly the same players on the NBL as someone like Bose.

Correct, and that performance was better than most of the Euro based Boomers in 2010, especially the perimeter players, even without considering Bruton's importance as a leader.

when looking at whether NBL players can produce internationally, the performances of Mackinnon, J Smith, Bruton, Abercrombie, Penney, Vukona, Worthington, Nielsen (04)and Dickel (02) compare very well with the current crop of Euro Aussies. A quick look at the poor performances from the 2010 team confirm that.

Back to Kings stuff though, I would hope that we're at least in consideration for Crosswhite, if it's not just a negotiation tactic, waiting this long... He'd fill a big hole left by Jules and maybe even add some toughness in there, allowing, as another bored hypothetical, someone less aggressive on the defensive end, like a Trigger, to fill the PF role... Although, with Trigger suggesting that a decision might be made as early as this week as to where he will be going, unless the Kings are 100% sure that JK and Toly won't be back next season no matter what, that would possibly rule out the Kings as a chance?

Bogut has already asked Heal on the Twitter about signing Nielsen, and Shane wasn't that hopeful, saying that with another season on his contract and earning as much as our salary cap it wasn't likely (and then shot down AJ as well, which I then figured out that AJ isn't an import since he's got Irish citizenship so will most likely be happier to bum around Europe for a while :( )

It's a shame though, as Matty ticks SO MANY boxes... Great leadership, toughness, great scorer and defender, local boy AND someone recognisable to a lot of previous fans... Signing him would be HUGE and I daresay would help bring a higher quality of players to the Kings also...

The Answer. I think that's what I said...