Isaac
Years ago

With Crocs 0-9, is it time for Woolpert to quit?

Townsville host Perth next and not many would be fancying the Crocs' chance there. Should Woolpert stand down if the Crocs can't afford to pay him out?

After that, they have the 36ers 3-4 times in quick succession. Maybe they can hope Adelaide play like they did against Melbourne to get them off the mark?

Top scorer last night was Abney with 11 points!

Topic #29972 | Report this topic


ant  
Years ago

May as well let him stay until the end of the season now. If the team is around next season then look for a new coach.

Get rid of Abney, C Cedar, Hinder and try to re-negotiate PC's big contract.

Sign a import big

Reply #387992 | Report this post


ant  
Years ago

Sorry get rid of michael cedar, not chris

Reply #387993 | Report this post


Murray Magpie  
Years ago

They need to realise the cancer that they have and cut it loose.
Dragons- Bottom
36ers - Bottom, 2nd Bottom, Bottom
Crocs now 0-9
Since season 2006 their power forward has started on teams that have gone 73-144. Surely these results cant be a coincidence.

Reply #387995 | Report this post


Mick  
Years ago

I don't think Woolpert is as much the problem as the players.

That said, no coach, in any league, in any sport, deserves to keep their job after a 0-9 start. He almost has to go on principle.

Most of the roster needs a clean-out, too, ASAP, but can you do that mid-season?

In many ways it would be best to move forwards as quickly as possible, that way you can treat the rest of the season as prep for next year.

But say you axe the worst offenders: Abney, Hinder, Allen, and M. Cedar now, who do you replace them with mid-season?

Also the other big decision that needs to be made: Chris Cedar and Mitch Norton simply cannot both be on this team unless one of them is starting. You can't afford to carry two 6 ft PGs off the bench.

Will either of them be ready for a starter gig this year, considering the strength of opposing PGs in this league at the moment?

Reply #387996 | Report this post


Mick  
Years ago

*starter gig next year

Reply #387998 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

they just need some help on the boards

Drop abney and perhaps m ceder

and make a play for Neville, team would be more competitive

Reply #387999 | Report this post


Happy Days  
Years ago

Pray for a miracle would be a good start.Need to strip it back and start again.

Reply #388001 | Report this post


KingJames  
Years ago

Its a 3 year plan and hopefully Cairns folds next season so he can pick up some players

Reply #388002 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

King James, why do you think that Cairns is going to fold next year?

Reply #388003 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

Anon, it's a Marty joke.

Murray, I have looked at those numbers myself, but last year?

Reply #388004 | Report this post


Murray Magpie  
Years ago

Take away Gill and Shnensher from last year and replace them with Hinder and Ervin they are horrible. Last year had nothi g to do with Holmes. His production fell off a barrier reef pontoon once he got a contract for this season. Crocs year before that we're decent enough as well.

Reply #388005 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Last year had nothing to do with Holmes? You lost all credibility with that one.

Reply #388009 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

MM, was pointing out that Holmes' play dropped off almost immediately once he received the two-year contract extension, which it did.

Funnily enough he seems to be even worse this season but next season will be a contract year so Crocs have something to look forward to there.

Reply #388010 | Report this post


Mick  
Years ago

Yeah, Holmes kept them in the playoff hunt while the rest of the team sucked waiting for Schensch to come back. He is a very productive player if not asked to score off isolations; the Crocs' +/- with him on the floor compared to on the bench was staggering last season.

This year he has been terrible on the offensive end, but so has everyone.

Look, as far as changing this team, axing anyone at this point will achieve nothing on-the-court and won't get them any more wins than if they stay the course. HOWEVER, the board needs to make some decisions as a matter of principle, discipline and spine. They need to stand up and say "this isn't going to fly in pro sports: sorry, but see you later".

All of those guys who were given last chance contracts this offseason have to go. The coach has to probably go too, unfortunately.

Anything less is the powers-that-be saying "this is fine. Going 0-9 is acceptable for a professional sports franchise. You all should feel secure in your employment because you are doing a great job."

Making at least one cut to the on-court contingent of the franchise (ie. players and coaches) is about setting a standard and a benchmark more than doing something that will give you wins.

It also will put everyone on notice that they are playing for their jobs, and in some cases THEIR CAREERS: Russell Hinder, Larry Abney, Michael & Chris Cedar, and maybe Ben Allen, may not play in the NBL again after this campaign is done. No team in the NBL will hire any of those guys after the Crocs cut them this offseason. The only chance is Ben Allen, and only because he is relatively young and near 7ft.

The rest of those guys careers' are DONE if they keep up the effort that has got them to 0-9..

So where is the urgency?

Reply #388012 | Report this post


Europa 74  
Years ago

It is completely the coaches fault, we have a team that can WIN! Yes the players are responsible but his job is to work out the strengths of each player and get it working. This team has done that and Woolpert just can't see it. Each game the team gets on a roll and he makes a stupid sub etc that just disrupts the roll. He has done it continually every game and the worse thing is once he finds something that works not only does he stop it he doesn't go back to it at all.
When things aren't working its up to him to make the changes on the night to get it working he does then bugger me dead he makes a random change and goes away from what works. Norton and Ervin when on together in the perth game killed it Norton doesn't need help bringing the ball up which allows everyone else to actually set up the plays. Gary scored 21 or 22 pts that night. I am told Norton isn't a shooter well what happened he has top point scored and been a threat for years this only showes they have no idea about there players strengths!!!!! C Cedar awesome impact player just seems to have lost his guts abit. PC to emotional at the moment. We aren't getting rebounds because we don't box out and we aren't shooting the ball with any kind of confidence because we are not getting the rebounds. If you have good rebounders you will be keen to shoot the ball. Woolpert has ALOT to answer for. His coaching is really very questionable. And yes he isn't the one not rebounding, scoring etc but he is the one costing us games when we get on a role. Scotting and Editing must be a joke when DJ Rod is doing it. What is Liam Flynn doing!!!
Oh and Chris Cedar is not a point Guard a good 2 but not a point guard!

Reply #388014 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

so here are some facts:

* Crocs dont have ANY money to pay out any player or coach's contract, let alone hire someone else.
* The Chairman of the Crocs' Board has stated that they do not cut contracts short unless there has been a breach of conditions.

So that leaves us with Woolpert resigning. I think that would be a sign of him quitting on the team and giving up because it was too hard.

I dont think it will happen.

What they can do is openly say to the fans, we're going to give our future stars an opportunity to get experience. That means playing Norton, C Cedar & Blanchfield as much as possible.

Reply #388015 | Report this post


Murray Magpie  
Years ago

Pre contract renewal 13.85ppg 9.7 Rb
Post contract renewal 7.5ppg 8.4rb
Also allegedly mouthed off about how the team was better off without certain players to management. great team mate.

Reply #388016 | Report this post


Murray Magpie  
Years ago

And for the fun of it this season 8.3 ppg at 34% with 7.3Rb

Reply #388017 | Report this post


Mick  
Years ago

This team is better off without certain players...

Have no problem with him voicing concerns to management. Especially when those certain players' deficiencies lie predominately in the effort department. I'd be pissed off too if I busted my nut for every rebound when some guys on that team seem unwilling to even look like they are making an effort.

Reply #388022 | Report this post


Anon  
Years ago

MM you are obviously not a Jacob fan. Fair enough.
Get facts right though. Member of Dragons team that made the play-offs, Sixers 08/09 playoffs and had a back up role with 36ers 2002 championship team.
Not to mention key player in last years play-off run.
Dont let the facts get in the way of your story!

Reply #388023 | Report this post


Mystro  
Years ago

Jacob Holmes is part of the problem, you aren't going to win a championship with him as your go to guy but as a role player, maybe. At least he puts some effort in. Blanchfield, Crawford and Norton are also keepers. Gill was great last season but even he would have had his issues with this group.

Reply #388024 | Report this post


Mick  
Years ago

The board is having a meeting on Monday anyway. There will almost certainly be someone sent packing then.

I wouldn't count on the whole "we honour all player contracts" garbage. That was said in a time of stubbornness and denial by the chairman. He has definitely changed his tune since then.

And besides, they assed two players before the season even started.

I just hope it isn't only woolpert sacked. There are certain players who need to be held accountable as well.

Reply #388025 | Report this post


Murray Magpie  
Years ago

07/08 Dragons went 5- 25 and finished Bottom,
2002 with 36ers was a rookie off the bench who got junk time only
2008/09 was in the 36ers team that finished bottom.
I know it gets confusing with the different years and all

Reply #388026 | Report this post


ant  
Years ago

I don't like how Holmes does more talking in time outs than Woolpert. Maybe if it was Ervin Id be Ok with it, but not Holmes.

Reply #388038 | Report this post


kr  
Years ago

Murray Magpie it wasn't just Gill and Schensher that were replaced from last year.
Ervin in for Gill is a swap I'd be content with.
But it's the bigs that hurt this team the most. Schensher replaced by Hinder is a massive downgrade, which left the crocs with zero post presence.

Lets not forget Mims also played last year and although he wasn't a star he brought athletiscism, shot blocking, rebounding and versatility allowing him to play some minutes at 3. Replaced by old, slower, less athletic and less versatile Larry Abney.

Not to mention Michael Cedars outside game going from disappointing to down right horrible.

Reply #388040 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Stand down by all means but he still has a contract, so that really means that he doesn't work and gets paid!!! I like that idea.
You can't clean out the roster either when Woolpert has contracted players that may no longer be required.
Woolpert, Smyth and the Board are all complicit in this whole debacle. A once great club reduced to one of the all time basket cases.
Now we have a situation and where Smtyh has denied it that Wright will coach. The crocs and the club are indeed doomed if they go down that road. Deck chairs and Titanic I see.
5 - 25 would be a luxury!!!

Reply #388041 | Report this post


Bball Fan  
Years ago

Being a Crocs fan since day one and having season tickets for the first 12 years before moving, there's nothing more disappointing to see where the franchise is right now. Watching them on tv is an embarrassment at the moment. If the stakeholders can't see there is serious trouble after crowds have dwindled from near capacity to half full, there is more trouble than we think.

My personal opinion - ALL the coaching team must go. Abney - Gone. Hinder - Flick. Both Cedars - See ya. Allen - Bye Bye. And if PC does not lift his head and stop being a whinging bitch then he should go too.

The front office needs a massive shakeup. They need to understand that business should be done differently these days compared to 10 years ago. They must change with the times. It seems some of the top dogs are very narrow minded.

Speaking to friends and family back in Townsville, a Crocs game is the last thing they want to go to. I have been told that the Swamp should be nic named the new library.

What happened.....how did it get so bad??? It will be a total shame for the city if the Crocs fold next year. This was once one of the best franchises in the league and a force on and off the court.

That said, I will stick by them. This is a time when they need their supporters. People are unhappy with what is going on, but the league needs them......and so does Townsville!

Reply #388042 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

All well and good to cut players, but who are you picking up to replace them? Nevill will get mentioned but after that?

Reply #388047 | Report this post


X  
Years ago

Nevill would be huge if they had a decent distributor at PG. He's the type of guy who could average 20+ if made the focal point, which he would be at TVL.

Reply #388048 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Pay out the contrax of all players not required. The stupid part of all that is that it doesnt count against the salary cap. There will be many players on the market next season Isaac. Dont the Crocs have a junior dev program? What could be worse than paying chumps to be 0)-9, or pay the local kids and a few QBL players and hopefully some good Aussie talent and 2 good ipmorts and win a few? Rebuild, it will take time and every true fan will return and expect them to have a dip.
Smyth, Woolpert, George and co have a lot to answer for.

Reply #388053 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

There were players on the market last off-season!

Reply #388054 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

For the rest of the season, if you are not going to cut any players, i would put as much minutes as possible into Norton and Blanchfield and see how they go and how far they can progress, may pay dividends down the track.

Norton looks good to me, id put him in as the starting PG,

play Ervin SG where he can concentrate on scoring, he said he played sg last season overseas and put up good numbers, and i personally like the more scoring Pg's as SG's in a role a bit like Jason Terry does in the NBA, obviously Ervin wont be off the bench but he will be the spark plug offensive player, who plays back up PG.

Blanchfield needs to start and also give him some responsibility and see how he goes, if he can play some minutes at PF in a smaller line up, id start him at PF and Crawford at SF, not sure if that would work though, if not bring Crawford off the bench.

The bigs play, none of them are doing much so just play them all 15-20 mins each, as thats all you can do, ideally you would bring in a Neville type or even a Bradshaw, Horvath, BJ Anthony type may be cheaper and surely an upgrade on their bigs, even if not a huge one.

Say no roster changes can be made, and Blanchfield can play a little PF like Weigh does for the 36ers, id have rotations like

C Abney (15)/Allen(15)/Hinder (10)
PF Blanchfield (15)/Holmes (20)/Hinder (5)
SF Crawford (25)/Blanchfield (15)
SG Ervin (30)/M Cedar (10)
PG Norton (30)/C Cedar (10)

(If you dont wanna play Blanchfield at PF, slide him to SF, bring Crawford off the bench and start Holmes, not a big deal either way)

Some would say Norton shouldnt be playing 30 mins, but what have they got to lose, he has been one of there better players imo, is young and will do it tough at times but that should also give him plenty of time to grow and shine, i say let the kid play and see how he goes, and would have a similar attitude with Blanchfield, aslong as they play hard id give them plenty of minutes.

Most of the others i wouldnt keep around next year, maybe Crawford and Holmes but both off the bench.

Next year id be aiming for atleast

C Neville/??? Allen if no one else, but only on min wage, and he has to work hard, id probably get someone else, and play Neville 30 mins a game.

PF Import (to quality, not cheap and old)/Holmes

SF Blanchfield/Crawford

SG Import (top notch import, at worst keep Ervin, ideally a Rob Rose mould player)/?? Young Aussie, with Crawford playing some back up SG

PG Norton/ ideally an experience back up like a Crosswell type, say get Rhys Carter back from overseas.

That would be a huge improvement, and if Neville is interested they Crocs would be best served to let either Abney, Cedar or Allen go and bring him in right now, and shuffle the line up a little, would make a massive difference imo.

Reply #388060 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

so many comments and opinions, so little knowledge.

BUT, that is why we are all here :)

Isaac hit it right on the head: "There were players on the market last off-season!"

who did they pass up to resign Cedar, Cedar, Allen, Hinder... Schenscher for one, Gibson, Petrie, Dillon, Goulding, Tragardh... plenty of talent! And what was so wrong with Eddie Gill?

I'm hearing Woolpert had very little input into the team - so wtf are they thinking?

Reply #388061 | Report this post


Spursfan  
Years ago

Gill was arthritic in both knees apparently

Reply #388062 | Report this post


Mystro  
Years ago

BJ Anthony would be cheap, hungry, and most of all a big body in the paint banging and rebounding and setting monster picks for the Crocs shooters.

Reply #388064 | Report this post


Mick  
Years ago

It doesn't matter who you replace them with, they aren't doing their jobs so they need to go.

We have plenty of development players around this country that would play for free or close to it.

Replace them with local under 16 division III players for all I care, it doesn't matter.

Like I said, a roster shakeup now isn't about getting wins, it's about setting a standard and benchmark for the club going forward about the pride, effort, discipline and standard of play that is required to play for this team now and forever.

Reply #388065 | Report this post


Mick  
Years ago

It's also a reason why an NBL-affiliated second tier league would be great for basketball in this country.

You send those lazy ass coasters packing down to second grade and call up the in-form guys from your local affiliate.

It provides more chances for guys in QBL to get NBL game experience, too.

It's the way the NBA, MLB, NRL and AFL does it, and in my opinion not only is it a great development tool, it is a fantastic disciplinary tool as well.

The only downside is you lose the "independence" of the state leagues in a way.

Reply #388066 | Report this post


kr  
Years ago

Yeah I see no benefit in showing loyalty to some of the guys on last chance contracts and waiting the year out.

Their unbalanced line up wont suddenly improve without changes.

Mick Cedar for one, peaked about 4 years ago and has been on a slow decline ever since, so his last chance is about 2-3 years long, if you can't cut him give his minutes to Brenden Teys to have a shot at a contract for next year.

It really is the bigs where our biggest problem lies 3 backup big men and an undersized non scoring power forward. Bring Khazouh or Neville in right now for Abney as he would be the easiest to cut, noway you can cut the Captain mid season (that will be next year).

Bring in an import 2/3 and drop a Cedar to give them some size, athleticism and versatility, Jason Forte would be perfect hahaha!

Full clean out next year with Norton, pc, Blanchfield, Holmes (backup) the only keepers at this stage. Allen may yet prove to be a servicable backup centre, so could be considered.

Bring in some new college talent next year.

Reply #388067 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

THERE IS NO MONEY TO BRING ANYONE ELSE IN!!!

If any of you were CEO, we wouldn't be in the league next year!

Reply #388068 | Report this post


sixtiesrockstar  
Years ago

Re mick.
A second tier league. Where do you think money grows? That's one of the dumbest ideas to put in public. A matter of typing before thinking perhaps. Maybe in a perfect world but basketball is far from that. What are you thinking. When you lose schenscher and replace him with hinder, the team is gone already. And then with abney. Another notch down.

Reply #388069 | Report this post


Mick  
Years ago

If you bothered to read my comment in full, you would see I was talking about aligning the NBL season with the state league seasons and forming affiliations.

Not creating a second league from nothing.

As I said, the only downside would be losing the autonomy of the state leagues.

It was just an aside anyway, showing that it would be easier to address such problems as the Crocs' failures now if there was state-league affiliation

As for the "we don't have money to replace guys" comments:

It isn't about money. There are ways around this that don't involve money.

Abney's contract does not have to be paid out. He is an import and came here injured on top of that. He can be let go for nothing. Hinder also has a team-out clause in his contract. Ie. no payout.

Both are old, too, so it's not like there is any upside in retaining them. Both are also key reasons for the team's failures. Replace them with development players who don't cost anything.

There are plenty of guys in this country that are willing to play for next-to-nothing just for exposure, believe me.

Mick Cedar has to go too. He's on league minimum but he and Allen are both on last chance contracts and aren't putting in any effort on game night.

Like KR said, there is no benefit to showing loyalty to any of the guys on last chance contracts.

Even if you are riding the year out with the Crocs development players and older Sharp Start kids, it is about showing the older guys that their effort just isn't good enough and their actions (or in-actions) have real consequences. It's about showing them that if they aren't going to put in the right work and take their job for granter, that there are hundreds of kids around the country who would kill for a crack at the big league.

It also opens up more minutes and leadership opportunities for the younger roster players who actually have a future like Norton and Blanchfield.



Reply #388073 | Report this post


Rabbit 15  
Years ago

Eveyone is right, Woolpert isn't going to go but he needs to start watching and editing his own scouting tapes because somehow they are missing some serious shit. Not just with the teams we are playing against but with in our ouwn game. The comment about Norton as the starting point guard spot should be happening. I was standing at a social event recently and heard both Gary telling Norton just that. He did an amazing job as the SG spot last year and he scored 21 0r 22 points when Woolpert ran this. And Ben Allen had the game of his life. Yes next year a clean out is coming but they have to get this year working.

I would love for the Media to ask Gary straight out about Norton at the PG and him at the SG the thing with C Cedar is he can step in to either everyone has something to give Woolpert just need to get it sorted because someone is handing him the picture of the games we are playing.

Reply #388082 | Report this post


Rabbit 15  
Years ago

Sorry that should say WRONG picture of the games

Reply #388083 | Report this post


Mick  
Years ago

Someone is going to go tomorrow after the board meets. It almost certainly will be Woolpert, with Flynn stepping up to replace him.

Woolpert will probably resign - going 0-10 is no good for his international coaching resume so he will probably want to hang it up before things get any worse and his name gets dragged any further through the mud.

I think that will be it, with all player transactions waiting until the offseason. It's not the way it SHOULD go down, but it's probably the way it will go down. Some players need to go now.



Reply #388087 | Report this post


Mick  
Years ago

And Rabbit is absolutely right about the scouting. Horrendous. The video editor is a volunteered intern position, so you get what you pay for.

Reply #388088 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Gill was arthritic in both knees apparently


Assuming that is true it certainly didn't stop the Milwaukee Bucks bringing him into training camp and being one of the last players cut before the start of this NBA season.



Reply #388092 | Report this post


Spursfan  
Years ago

I get that, but if true, signing Gill is a risk. Plain and simple. I wouldn't knock the Crocs too much for not re-signing Gill.

Reply #388096 | Report this post


Mick  
Years ago

Yeah, having no Gill isn't the problem, especially when you replace him with Ervin.

We miss his leadership and pace/game-control, but it's hardly the reason why this team is 0-9.

People forget exactly how bad he was on his off-nights. 'Cause he was baaaaaaad.

The problems are clearly Mick Cedar, Hinder, Abney and Allen. If there were productive players in each of those guys' shoes you'd be looking at a different result right now.

Reply #388099 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Making wholesale changes now will achieve nothing. The fans, sponsors and the team (staff included) need to stick together.

Without question the team only got slightly weaker in the off season. The league got tougher by going down to 8 teams. However, at their best they can still give the fans and sponsors a show and win some games before the season is over.

Have to agree that giving Norton and Blanchfield as much opportunity as possible but they must deserve the minutes, can't be charity.

Woolpert v Flynn for Head Coaching position? Not sure if making that change will help or hurt. We know that coaching changes can sometimes free the players up and they perform better for a game or two but it almost never lasts.

If a change was to happen I think bringing back Gleeson would be a good option. At least he has the runs on the board,

Reply #388100 | Report this post


eli1  
Years ago

Is it worth putting money down on the Crocs to beat the 36ers next week? Im in!

Reply #388104 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Back the Sixers!!! Can you get odds on 0-10?

Reply #388114 | Report this post


Mick  
Years ago

Actually picking Crocs' opponents lately has been paying surprisngly well.

The bookies seem to have been thinking Townsville has been poised for a win. They've been wrong...

Reply #388117 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I for won have successfully punted and got reasonalbe odds on the Crocs to lose.

Reply #388147 | Report this post


Spursfan  
Years ago

I like to count the number of times Crawford puts his arms out in front of him (forklift style) in complaint about calls made by the refs.

Reply #388176 | Report this post


Mick  
Years ago

Crawford's attitude is bad when we are WINNING, let alone this season...

Reply #388193 | Report this post


Red77  
Years ago

'His production fell off a barrier reef pontoon once he got a contract for this season'.
I don't reckon you can throw that statement out about Holmes’ work ethic. His playing ability may not be up to scratch (along with half of the team) though.

Reply #388289 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

time for townsville and cairns to merge. one team is team enough for north queensland better to put focus into brisbane and 2nd melb or 2nd sydney team. points cap can work but like afl salary cap needs a veterans exception making say shawn redhage's points and salary outside the cap.

Reply #388349 | Report this post


Spursfan  
Years ago

#349: I want to be polite, so just wondering if I should laugh or respond seriously?

Reply #388351 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

So looks like you were wrong Mick. Woolpert's still there.

Reply #388403 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Nothing new. Mick's predictions are always wrong.

Reply #388451 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Most underachieving franchise EVER in the history of the NBL.

Reply #388704 | Report this post


Jack Toft  
Years ago

704, BIG call on that one. In 20 seasons they haven't won a flag, but have been there once. Surely there are other teams that are worse?

In the last 9 seasons they have been around the mark and have averaged 5.2 as their ladder position.

They're probably not the worst franchise ever, but they could be viewed as the "red shirts" of the competition just making up numbers.

(In Star Trek, the "red shirt" was the member of the cast that held their end, but in the vital fight scene were the ones that died/bad things happened to etc)

Reply #388718 | Report this post




 

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