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Dunk Basketball Uniforms   West Adelaide Bearcats Mid-Year Carnival - July 10-13, 2014

HO
Last year

#30598

Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

So its Kristy Harrower's turn to ask the questions.

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/sport/basketball/opals-star-joins-calls-for-equality-20130119-2d0qg.html

The most interesting thing for me is the silence from BA. Are the journalists trying to get a comment from BA?

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Isaac
Last year
12:05 21 Jan 13

Reply #399928

re: Harrower's Turn

What are crowds like comparing WNBL to the netball?


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HO
Last year
12:09 21 Jan 13

Reply #399929

re: Harrower's Turn

tiny versus large! except of course netball won't allow their crowd figures to be published.


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Isaac
Last year
12:17 21 Jan 13

Reply #399933

re: Harrower's Turn

How hard would it be to find sponsorship (especially naming rights level and in this climate) at WNBL level? Do the smaller crowds suggest a reduced public interest? Does everyone who'd pipe up on a forum or around the water cooler saying 'Pay the girls the same!' go along to a game?


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HO
Last year
13:16 21 Jan 13

Reply #399943

re: Harrower's Turn

I think the spin on this article is smarter. Harrower is isolating a problem/s (sponsorship_ rather than just haranguing BA).

There is a fair question about whether BA are working hard at sponsorship for WNBL or whether they have shelved it as too hard.

Issac - no idea!


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Who Me
Last year
13:30 21 Jan 13

Reply #399946

re: Harrower's Turn

Purely from a promotion point of view, wouldn't the WNBL be better with say a Gold Coin donation as Adult entry and free admittance for minors?

Been at the last 2 Lightning Home Games, during school holidays, and have been shocked by the lack of crowd at the game, but note that there hasn't been any promotion either.

If admittance was free for minors, you would hope there would be a significantly larger crowd and therefore more spent by those attending?


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Anonymous
Last year
13:42 21 Jan 13

Reply #399952

re: Harrower's Turn

Who cares about naming rights sponsors, we want access to a lounge for free OJ!!!


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Anonymous
Last year
14:04 21 Jan 13

Reply #399961

re: Harrower's Turn

With regard to whole Olympic seating issue, I thought this was the case (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong).

BA is given money, via the Sports Commission and the Olympic Committee.

BA divides the money between the Boomers and the Opals and then the Paralympic teams.

Essentially, the money is spent however the programs want to spend it. So if the Boomers want to travel first class, they do it. If the Opals want to travel in Economy, they choose to do it and spend what they have on other stuff, meals, incidentals, etc.

The problem is this: the Opals are actually more successful and a more realistic shot at a medal. So really, they should get more $.


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Anonymous
Last year
14:48 21 Jan 13

Reply #399974

re: Harrower's Turn

Ok, the opals are a medal chance they deserve more of the ''funding'', So then is this not double standards with the NBL and WNBL because the NBL is a more profitable league?

Either way, once you pull funding from the boomers for the opals because of medal chances, good luck getting the good players to fly internationally in economy. We will have a lot of fellas turn down playing for their country one would imagine. Take it how you like it, its the honest truth.

I seem to remember the boomers playing at a practically full hisense last year. That alone would have made a little bit of $$$.

How many turned up the womens game @ hisense that afternoon?

Its the harsh reality of womens sport; It does not draw a crowd,it is not very marketable and usually always struggles to make significant profits.

Ps. I have read comments regarding how well the WNBA is ran and how it could be done! Read more into it, the WNBA is and has been in the negative for years. The NBA funds the WNBA. Enough said.


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Anonymous
Last year
15:20 21 Jan 13

Reply #399980

re: Harrower's Turn

Now this:

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/sport/a-word-kristina-about-discrimination-in-australian-basketball-20130120-2d1is.html


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HO
Last year
15:30 21 Jan 13

Reply #399984

re: Harrower's Turn

#399980

Now that is a poor article. Really poorly put together. The chicken and egg premise is not dealt with etc.

Not saying the issue is not a real one, just that the article is really poor.


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Isaac
Last year
16:03 21 Jan 13

Reply #400000

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

Like someone writing their first open letter.


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Anonymous
Last year
22:48 21 Jan 13

Reply #400068

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

She is a complete Moron.

WNBL is no way in the world as good as the NBL.

Therefore they are on "correct" ground, not equal.

Winging women going at it again.


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Dunkin' Dan
Last year
23:50 21 Jan 13

Reply #400072

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

I love the WNBL and I feel for the way the league has been neglected by BA.
Unfortunately the majority of the articles about it miss the point, attack the wrong aspects, and as a result come off as being petty, whiny, lacking in credibility, and ultimately devalue the "sexism" accusation by throwing it around where it is clearly not warranted.
Kristi knows what she is talking about. Unfortunately that Tuxworthy dude is awful, and is apparently happy to drag players down with him.

As a WNBL and Opals fan it bothers me to see these dodgy journos actually harming the cause with half-baked stories just in the name of trying to stir up some controversy and make a name for themselves.


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SMA
Last year
00:10 22 Jan 13

Reply #400073

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

Posting that it is women whining shows exactly the mentality that sees this swept under the rug!

BA will soon make a non-committal statement saying there will be a review then go back to kicking rocks.

The WNBL has been solid for a long time despite little being done to promote it.

The NBL peaked 20 years ago and is dying a slow death despite several attempts to kickstart it.

Which is damn shame on both fronts!!


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Anonymous
Last year
07:14 22 Jan 13

Reply #400083

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

^ Yep, pretty much sums it up....


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HO
Last year
07:18 22 Jan 13

Reply #400084

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

#400068

You are correct. There is no way the WNBL is as good as the NBL. In relative terms, it is clearly better.


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Anonymous
Last year
07:30 22 Jan 13

Reply #400086

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

Ive got more faith in the WNBL being around in 3 years than the NBL.
While the WNBL may not be as well funded and high profile as the NBL it's certainly more stable and sustainable.
It also produces more international accolades than the NBL.
Maybe in an ironic kind of way the lack of BA support and funding has forced the league to find a point of sustainability and stability on its own.


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paul
Last year
07:40 22 Jan 13

Reply #400087

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

BA doesnt 'fund' either league, it gets money from clubs, sponsors, TV etc and then spends that on the leagues they came from, so both leagues have to find a 'point of sustainability and stability'.

There are some exceptions on both sides re BA funding but they are exactly that, exceptions to the rule. At the end of the day it is club owners who are carrying the burden of keeping high level basketball alive, BA is a gatekeeper at this point until they find ways to generate a lot more revenue themselves.


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Jack Toft
Last year
08:18 22 Jan 13

Reply #400089

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

Good question Isaac.


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Triton 95
Last year
08:39 22 Jan 13

Reply #400092

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

I think for a whole season, say next season they need to let children in for free. This is the 2nd best female basketball league in the world and BA do nothing to promote the league, useless.


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Mystro
Last year
09:07 22 Jan 13

Reply #400101

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

How does it work? Women's basketball that is? Do they hang a hoop off the fridge and one next to the oven?


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paul
Last year
09:26 22 Jan 13

Reply #400108

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

"This is the 2nd best female basketball league in the world"

Really? I would imagine the Euroleague is a higher standard.


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Aladysheaint
Last year
09:45 22 Jan 13

Reply #400111

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

The issue is more simple than most accept. The junior development processes across too many of the states sees high level drop offs in numbers post 16/18 year groups. Complicated, biased, subjective or irrational selections witnessed at Australian level are multiplied a thousand fold at junior national level with vested and complex selections.
Girls are worn out and away by the training that is excessive and by the carnivals of doubtful quality and use which cost a fortune and are compulsory. From under 14s overkill and basketball are the same entity.
Basketball grass roots is incestuous and the outcome is malformation of the end product. The move to netball by the 16 plus age groups owes much to the differences in opportunity, training expectations and less heavy-handed ness. From a SA perspective it can be also sheeted back to the failure of the basketball fraternity to effect changes in direction and personnel for several decades.
The women,s national league is seen as a product of nepotism and not one of merited achievement in far too many cases which takes the shine of the any talented players in the WNBL. The lightning have brought ridicule to its own door with selections with even junior players laughing at some choices.
Essentially with so many of the women dropping out or choosing other sports, the WNBL does not enjoy enough support to be sustainable. In most sports the Harrowers and the Hills would not be given a spot at their respective ages and it sends the very real message to junior aspirants that women's basketball is a closed shop .


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HO
Last year
09:48 22 Jan 13

Reply #400112

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

Aladysheaint, well a whole lot of stuff there completely off topic, and some extraordinary generalizations that would suggest basketball is doing far worse than others.


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Guns
Last year
11:08 22 Jan 13

Reply #400119

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

Maybe Harrower can put on a basketball mascot suit outside the front of the stadium before games and pursuade passing cars to come watch. This strategy seems to work for Dominoies Pizza


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Ricey
Last year
11:27 22 Jan 13

Reply #400125

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

Lauren Jackson has a boost in payment from BA/government correct? If so, then that alone evidence that the WNBL is favoured over the NBL, because last I checked, none of the guys are getting extra money, or even a million dollar contract to begin with


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Anonymous
Last year
11:29 22 Jan 13

Reply #400126

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

HO, don't worry, this person posts this exact same thing every week in a different thread. It's completely off-topic and in most cases incorrect. But it undoubtably makes the poster feel better about whatever wrong was reeped upon them back in the day.


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Isaac
Last year
11:43 22 Jan 13

Reply #400130

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

I think for a whole season, say next season they need to let children in for free. This is the 2nd best female basketball league in the world and BA do nothing to promote the league, useless.
Wouldn't that decision about letting kids in for free be at the discretion of each club? e.g, they could do this now if it was worthwhile?


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BJF
Last year
11:53 22 Jan 13

Reply #400132

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

Only reason Netball was on TV was because ANZ paid for it to be there.
There are a lot of companies out there that want to align themselves with female demographics. Right now sponsorship is hard to come by and the gap between the big sports and sports like basketball is widening. Basketball is well placed to take advantage of this as it is the top dual sex team sport in Australia , if not the world. Just need the right people on the bus to get the results. When was the last time you saw or heard something advertising a lightning game for instance?


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HO
Last year
12:02 22 Jan 13

Reply #400134

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

Ricey, BA contribute a "small percentage" of Jackson's salary, which is I think 1 million over four years. Lets not be misled into thinking its 1 million per year.

That is a good example of BA doing something for the women's league that they would not have done for the men. And for good reasons.

Bogut does not play in our league. If there was the opportunity for him to do so I think BA would similarly make a contribution.

As Paul said, there are some exceptions on both sides to how the leagues are relatively "funded" by BA. My view would be that BA are not, and have not for the last 3-5 years, put the effort (or money) into developing the women's league that they have with the men.


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Anonymous
Last year
12:11 22 Jan 13

Reply #400136

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

Regarding attendances you can't fit anymore people into Veneto, Bulleen fill that place EVERY game, its a terrible venue for WNBL.
Dandenong get about half full as do Bendigo althought for local derby's (Dand V Bull etc) all 3 venues in Vic fill up.


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CR
Last year
12:17 22 Jan 13

Reply #400142

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

@Isaac, yes I believe each club sets their door charges, but they are between a rock and a hard place.

The association based teams certainly have to subsidise their WNBL programs, so need every dollar they can get. It's a trade off between a few extra bucks as opposed to (as you suggest) letting kids in free to get bums on seats.

I suspect also a bit of group think - everyone in the league follow a similar approach on door charging and no one wants to step out of line.


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paul
Last year
12:22 22 Jan 13

Reply #400144

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

I think the bottom line is, whether your players are male or female, running a national basketball team in Australia is very tough and you dont get any dividends from the governing body to do it.


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Anonymous
Last year
12:25 22 Jan 13

Reply #400147

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

I think it's a Team by Team scenario regarding entrance, each club has its own issues, no point letting kids into a venue for free if they already get close to capacity every game anyway (Veneto), that's throwing away money for no reason.
Somewhere like Bendigo might benefit though, at the other end Dandenong struggle to get crowds to SEABL/WNBL games even if they give tickets, their club is poorly supported at Snr level away so it wont help them either.


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hoopie
Last year
12:28 22 Jan 13

Reply #400148

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

I'm curious about how things are on the other side of the ditch in NZ - are they in better shape or worse, cos they must have a lot fewer people playing and so a lot less money to use.


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paul
Last year
12:40 22 Jan 13

Reply #400153

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

They currently dont have any funding for their national programs this coming season, so not too good at that level. Participation rates are pretty good though.


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Yeti
Last year
14:32 22 Jan 13

Reply #400177

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

Funding of Australia's National teams has nothing to do with with the 2 professional leagues, other than the administration is collective at BA.

As stated previously, the decision re first class travel was a team management decision.

The issue re Virgin Lounge membership is due to sponsorship differences with the NBL property being supported by Virgin and the WNBL not having that arrangement.

I think BA have previously acknowledged that since 2009, their focus was on the NBL and that this was due to the basket-case they inherited and the need to stabilise and re-establish the NBL property.

This decison was based on the fact that the NBL is and ws the 'public face of basketball'. The WNBL supporters can claim that the WNBL is the 2nd, or 3rd best league in the world and that the players are some of the best in the world, but to the general 20+m Australian it's the men's game which is basketball.


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Ricey
Last year
15:11 22 Jan 13

Reply #400186

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

HO it is over 3 years. And no, they wouldn't do it for the NBL, otherwise we would have bigger local names back from Europe already.

Think you will find that if teams are not able to get sponsorship for themselves, then why should anyone else including the BA have to bail them out.

Also, the NBL as said is the public face of basketball in this country. Get the NBL on the right track, and interest will resurface for WNBL.


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paul
Last year
15:25 22 Jan 13

Reply #400188

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

Firstly you have to do what's needed for both to operate and survive, and that's mostly what the stretched resources at BA do for both leagues.

Staff that have been added in recent years have been paid for by NBL sponsorship deals, hence more (but not all) focus is placed on the NBL.


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Anonymous
Last year
17:23 22 Jan 13

Reply #400220

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

Womens Basketball is not the same as mens. Id watch the men over the woman anyday.


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HO
Last year
19:05 22 Jan 13

Reply #400240

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

Yeti, people i think have speculated that the Virgin lounge thing has to do with virgin's sponsorship - not sure that is true. I understand it is in the players enterprise agreement.


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HO
Last year
19:11 22 Jan 13

Reply #400241

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

Ricey, i may not have explained that well.

Jackson is our premier womens player, Bogut our mens. Both would be box office drawcards, which is the reason BA has backed Jackson playing here. They would do the same for a player of Bogut's ilk if there was an opportunity, but I doubt they would do it for anyone else.

marics, newley, etc might draw some people, but nothing like the return you would get from bogut.

I am not suggesting the WNBL bail out there clubs. I am saying the league needs revenue to do basic things better - but as i have said a couple of times, suspect they have given up the chase.


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BJF
Last year
19:28 22 Jan 13

Reply #400242

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

There was an opportunity for Bogut to play in the NBL recently and BA did NOTHING to facilitate that process.


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paul
Last year
19:48 22 Jan 13

Reply #400245

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

Virgin lounge being part of a sponsorship agreement and/or enterprise agreement arent necessarily mutually exclusive, but we'll probably never know unless BA comments publicly.

If they do they should also address whether WNBL flights are subsidised as part of the NBL sponsorship deal. Seems to me BA arent at all interested in being involved in the 'he said, she said'.


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Anonymous
Last year
21:37 22 Jan 13

Reply #400264

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

Harrower seems to have forgotten that the Opals had a 3 week tour around Italy before the Olympics. That's where a alrge chunk of their budget went. You can't have it both ways. No one seems to mention this and it's conveniently been forgotten. Where is Graf on this subject. Quiet


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Ricey
Last year
23:16 22 Jan 13

Reply #400279

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

Thank you BJF... HO. Sit down


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SMA
Last year
23:31 22 Jan 13

Reply #400285

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

The Jackson deal was rightly backed by BA as a viable opportunity to promote the sport. But injury derailed it.

Bogut would've been great, but him aside the same should've been done for Mills, who was playing, and bolted to China for $1 million?

Whoever it is you need a person with personality that people (can/do) recognize and connect to. That draws them to games, boosts ratings and draws sponsors for clubs and league.


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HO
Last year
07:37 23 Jan 13

Reply #400298

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

I'll just stand up again. BJF, you actually don't know that the NBL/BA did nothing do you? And the reality of that Bogut thing was always incredibly slim, if not a media stunt at the time.

And, I am not sure the NBL clubs would have been as forgiving as the WNBL clubs in allowing BA to partly fund a marquee player.

And, the NBL has a salary cap while the WNBL does not.

The truth of Jackson is, save injury, she would have been a major drawcard for the league, and put bums on seats, as she has done before.

Paul, I am not sure anyone's flights are subsidized. I think they get best rate, but the advantage of booking a long time out and holding seats without names against them till very late.


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Anonymous
Last year
09:00 23 Jan 13

Reply #400311

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

Ho: media stunt? For who? You are an idiot.


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Ricey
Last year
10:26 23 Jan 13

Reply #400341

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

Sorry but Mills is a minimum minute bench player. Doesn't deserve same financial support as Bogut, especially seeing he made the highly intelligent move to china.

Jackson would put bums on seats. At her own games. Would've got some media attention for the league as a whole for a couple, maybe 4 weeks.

NBL clubs would have been all for bogut if Kennelly made it the easy sale it is. Do you want possible sell out games when he's in town? Oh you do, then he's coming.

Bogut has invested countless dollars into the NBL and basketball australia. It's only right they invested a little in him for a great media opportunity the league will NEVER get again


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paul
Last year
11:07 23 Jan 13

Reply #400352

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

That sounds like a subsidy to me!


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HO
Last year
11:37 23 Jan 13

Reply #400363

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

Hang on - Bogut has invested countless dollars into the NBL and BA? Can you qualify that?

I realise its countless, but even a ballpark?


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paul
Last year
11:48 23 Jan 13

Reply #400366

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

Youre asking him to count countless? You cruel man.


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Isaac
Last year
11:54 23 Jan 13

Reply #400368

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

Put some money into a failing club, but I haven't heard of anything beyond that.


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HO
Last year
14:26 23 Jan 13

Reply #400410

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

Cmon Paul, I gave Ricey an out - i said he could give us a ballpark.


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paul
Last year
14:34 23 Jan 13

Reply #400412

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

Yeah, well the 36ers do need one of them.


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Anonymous
Last year
14:43 23 Jan 13

Reply #400414

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

Didn't Bogut step in and help bail out the Sydney Spirit when they folded halfway through that one and only season?


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HO
Last year
14:59 23 Jan 13

Reply #400421

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

Ricey's a Perth supporter no? whats he doin handing over ballparks to the Sixers?


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Isaac
Last year
16:29 23 Jan 13

Reply #400451

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

No, Ricey's an Adelaide "supporter" - not that I can remember many supportive statements!

I think Marcus Camby is the Perth supporter.


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Anonymous
Last year
16:38 23 Jan 13

Reply #400458

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

I think Marcus Camby is Marty's agent.


Fixed ;)




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emmjay
Last year
20:23 23 Jan 13

Reply #400504

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

Are people forgetting that Jackson is former WNBA MVP and arguably one of the best female players in the world? Although Bogut & Mills might compare in a domestic sense Jackson ranks MUCH higher on an international scale. Im sure if Australia had produced an NBA MVP the BA would go to extraordinary lengths to sign them


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Anonymous
Last year
21:25 23 Jan 13

Reply #400510

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

Why doesn't anyone think about the Opals 3 week all expenses paid trip to Europe? No wonder they had to choose cattle class as Graffie spent a lot of their equally shared money as the men get on that one trip alone. Opals have been screwed by their own management. Yet they will never admit it.


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Ricey
Last year
01:06 24 Jan 13

Reply #400520

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

Isn't bogut puttin money into courts, gave money to Sydney, and from memory another club? Also heard he helps Aussies getting some exposure in states for college etc.

Oh, forgot Isaac. I have to make a positive comment on negative things to be a supporter lol... And I've made plenty I positive comments on players, just negative in regards to office and coach. But wait, guess that would put 90 of the supporters now "supporters"...


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HO
Last year
09:44 24 Jan 13

Reply #400524

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

30k from memory Ricey into the Sydney Spirit.

His "courts" are his own commercial venture in melbourne, as is any actions around getting kids into college.

Never heard of anything else. He's never appeared to me to be the most altruistic guy.


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Isaac
Last year
10:13 24 Jan 13

Reply #400525

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

Ricey, you don't exactly look for complimentary things to say. That's all I'm getting at. I think if someone was given the full set of your posts and asked to gauge sentiment, the overall tendency would be negative.


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HO
Last year
12:57 24 Jan 13

Reply #400570

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

So I can tell ricey to sit down now? I've never got to do that before.


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anon
Last year
15:24 25 Jan 13

Reply #400766

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

i see the NBL have gotten a new website
is the new wnbl website coming or is this another case of lack of equality
(i am assuming that the websites are both run by the same person, please correct if i am wrong)


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Isaac
Last year
16:13 25 Jan 13

Reply #400779

re: Harrower's Turn: Calls for WNBL/NBL equality

Don't complain! I think the current WNBL site looks better than the new or old NBL sites which are a mess of different styles.


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