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Dunk Basketball Uniforms   West Adelaide Bearcats Mid-Year Carnival - July 10-13, 2014

Damon
Last year

#30825

Big V Restructure

After reading a number of stories about new teams wanting in, old teams leaving, some teams not up to the current or appropriate standards I think the league should look at a decent expansion (in one hit to get it out of the way) and create a third division of lower expectations (to avoid costs, personnel etc..) perhaps this could be more like the CBL

DROP DOWN a couple of teams that have not done much in their time in the league from D2 like Pakenham, Mornington, Coburg and Casey (Cranbourne) and add Oakliegh Horsham, Warragual, Darebin, Bellarene, Wallan.

What do people think?

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Anonymous
Last year
21:31 14 Feb 13

Reply #404490

re: Big V Restructure

EXPANSION??? the League needs some contraction and compression.. Too little talent spread over too many teams.
If you want to raise the standard of elite Basketball in Victoria you need less teams and a higher concentration of better talent within those remaining teams.
Ultimately a higher standard of competition will result in a higher standard of talent and players achieving more of their potential.


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Anonymous
Last year
22:04 14 Feb 13

Reply #404494

re: Big V Restructure

Agree ^ you don't want too many teams then any average joe can play in the big v. It is supposed to be for the best players in the state..


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Anonymous
Last year
22:10 14 Feb 13

Reply #404495

re: Big V Restructure

I like the idea of every junior club having the ability to have a senior team if they'd like. It would be much like a successful football model. Have a strict promotion and relegation system. Then every kid can aspire to play for their clubs senior team and hopefully it would mean less juniors moving clubs in 18s and 20s in order to search for senior selection.


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Anonymous
Last year
08:41 15 Feb 13

Reply #404523

re: Big V Restructure

Wallan. A Pub and a freeway.
What's at Wallan?


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Bear
Last year
08:44 15 Feb 13

Reply #404525

re: Big V Restructure

So, is the issue here that the talented kids are moving on after under 18's because there is not enough to keep them playing at the higher level at their own Associations?

Or is it that there is not enough talent to go around?

The football model is a good example, but for the Big V to be known as a competition that has lower divisions, say down to Div 3 or similar, well that just doesn't sound right for the elite end of the market...

Yet, we are seeking some unification and simplification too, so the concept of expansion need not be one of diluting the talent pool if it is done correctly.


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Anonymous
Last year
09:10 15 Feb 13

Reply #404531

re: Big V Restructure

The league needs to understand what its all about. Either its about participation and doesnt care about quality or its there to have a competition based on quality and high standards. When you add more teams and clubs you place a huge strain on the reffing pools. The standard now is questionable so adding more games is simply going to make it harder. You also need clubs who have depth and a long term vision and structure. Taking Darebin as a example they have 2 male VJBL teams and a very small poor std domestic comp so there is no way they could support a single Big V team. They doont have enough of anything, players, admin, stats etc. If you want to play a Div 3 std game then go find a good domestic comp as thats what it is. I suspect calls like this are made from domestic hacks wanting to boost thier ego's by saying they play Big V.


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Tiger Watcher
Last year
09:16 15 Feb 13

Reply #404533

re: Big V Restructure

It is pretty simple structure in Victoria as to the hierarchy of competitions.

SEABL
SCM/W
Div 1
Div 2

It just happens that the Big V administers the lower leagues.

The better players from the smaller associations are always going to look for more opportunity to step up and play SEABL/SCM.W after they complete Youth leagues/juniors and if they are good enough they will get a gig.

You still need these smaller clubs to help feed the larger associations...so each has an important part to play in keeping people participating...despite the fact the level of play isn't fantastic in the lower divisions they are part of the food chain!



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Bear
Last year
09:20 15 Feb 13

Reply #404534

re: Big V Restructure

Let's not confuse restructure with expansion!

Two different things... They don't necessarily go hand in hand, do they? I agree that any unecessary or over expansion of the Big V is not a good idea, certainly these things take time, so a restructure may be workable and if that includes a small expansion that doesn't compromise the standard, then great, but going too big too soon if dangerous.

Look at what has happened to cricket?

Big bash, 20/20, 50 overs, tests, two Aus teams playing at once, OMG what a mess!! I have dropped right off cricket because I have no idea what is going on, who is in or out, what competition is being played etc...

Big V needs to be clear about their direction, and hasten slowly...


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HO
Last year
09:21 15 Feb 13

Reply #404535

re: Big V Restructure

Good topic Damon, and #404490 makes an excellent point.

The problem with the BigV (men) now, to use a women's fashion analogy, is that it is an inverse hour glass where it should be a pear.

The fat is in Division One, but the weakest competition, from what i can see, is Championship.

Let me clarify that, by weakest competition, I mean teams that genuinely have the capacity to win against other teams week in week out. And I thing Championship has been that way for a while with the same teams (excepting Corio Bay) basically appearing at or near the top of the ladder.

I think the conference thing they had going in D2 was ok, but in D1 its just stupid, because it distorts the whole structure. A smaller, sharper D1 would prepare teams for championship much better, which is where the competition needs more quality.

As for the bottom end, and I really don't know it well, it appears to me that the CBL has had an injection of life in the last couple of years.

Every Association should have a senior team in a competition. Perhaps the CBL is the answer for that in Country, where there are micro associations running around. To achieve that in Metro is desirable, but perhaps needs the MMBL to be rebuilt (completely). That way Associations like Sunshine, Gateway, Collingwood, etc would have a place to play.

The restructure the BigV needs is about quality. less teams would be better, with slimmer competition sizes in some divisions. But it needs to refocus on quality of venues, game presentation, venues etc in a big way. I saw some teams play in venues last year that were just terrible.


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CR
Last year
09:38 15 Feb 13

Reply #404537

re: Big V Restructure

@HO what do you mean by "MMBL needs to be rebuilt" ?

Doesn't it serve it's purpose as is ... it is effectively a user pays competition for clubs/teams that want a higher level than senior domestic but don't want the cost of Big V.


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Jack
Last year
10:58 15 Feb 13

Reply #404542

re: Big V Restructure

Great topic. I reckon every club should have a senior side, helps bbuild a club culture mentor juniors provide coaches etc...

However there needs to be the appropriate level for each club. Confference at D1 has to go and conferences should only be in the lowest Div, if at all (keep in mind you want teams to play against similiar standard)

Look at soccer in England. Plenty of Divisions to allow everyone to be involved. Big jump in standards as teams go up.

Big V should accomodate this


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Bear
Last year
11:19 15 Feb 13

Reply #404547

re: Big V Restructure

I agree Jack, Big V could accomodate more in a restructure, what about placing the CBL and MMBL under the Big V as a divisional concept so basketball can be governed in a more streamlined structure?

Just a thought, to make it bigger without actually expanding into markets where the competition is weakened...


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truth
Last year
11:22 15 Feb 13

Reply #404549

re: Big V Restructure

Good topic!


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HO
Last year
11:24 15 Feb 13

Reply #404551

re: Big V Restructure

CR, in the model I am looking to there is not a structure in metro that caters for the next series of associations (micros and smalls) in the way the CBL does in Country.

My thinking is based on my view the view that every association should have a senior representative program, relative to their own capacity.

Jack talks about English soccer. Below EPL, Championship, League one etc you have the conferences. What I am proposing is similar to this.

But the MMBL does not serve that purpose now. It has multiple teams representing numerous associations etc. So Waverley I think had two teams in MMBL and Keysborough three. In my model, MMBL would formally sit below BigV, be as cost effective as it can be (similar to CBL) but it would be a platform for progression to BigV, in the way that theoretically CBL provides now.

So a model would look something like:

Championship
D1
D2
(maybe D3)

then...

CBL/MMBL operating in conferences as they require but only allowing single team entries to reflect that optimal senior rep structure. I would also not allow teams playing BigV to also enter MMBL.


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Anon
Last year
11:24 15 Feb 13

Reply #404552

re: Big V Restructure

Big V themselves have said that more teams are looking at pushing for a birth in State Champ and that this will be the last year Div 1 is a conference with some of the lower teams dropping to Div2. The D1W comp is not a conference this year having been so in 2012.


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HO
Last year
11:32 15 Feb 13

Reply #404554

re: Big V Restructure

Thanks Anon, I had not heard that. Its interesting considering they spent all last year spruiking about how D1 was a much better competition than the year before. If that was the case why would you break it down??? (yep, rhetorical....)


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CR
Last year
12:38 15 Feb 13

Reply #404566

re: Big V Restructure

@HO okay thanks, good comments ...

I certainly understand that right now MMBL is pretty much a "anyone can play" competition. I don't really know the history of MMBL and where it sits in the political landscape.

The biggest problem is probably that right now the structure of Big V assumes a certain cost base from entered teams ... whereas MMBL is a much simpler user pays model.

You certainly raise an interesting conceptual model ... who knows if the powers that be are actually thinking about this stuff.


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Tiger Watcher
Last year
12:43 15 Feb 13

Reply #404568

re: Big V Restructure

Part of the issue with more teams stepping up to Champ from D1 is it dilutes the standard of the "flagship" division in the Big V.

The biggest issue with team stepping up from D1 to Champ is the $$ that these associations will need to spend to compete with Ringwood, Waverley, Corio whom seem to have very deep pockets.

I think to continue to grow the sport as a whole we need a strong senior league structure (SEABL-BIG V) but we also need to clearly define the divisions/leagues to ensure competitiveness in each Division & not just participation.

That said if the Big V came out and said we are about providing everyone with a platform to play competitive/organised senior basketball that is fine but just don't carry of with big announcements and nuffy youtube shows and expect to be called anything less than a bush league.






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CR
Last year
13:00 15 Feb 13

Reply #404573

re: Big V Restructure

@TW I take it you are not a big fan of the nuffy youtube shows ... LOL ...

It should actually be up to the member clubs to define what Big V is about ... but I suspect another case of the tail wagging the dog ?


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Tiger Watcher
Last year
13:40 15 Feb 13

Reply #404582

re: Big V Restructure

@CR - Nothing against the shows but just laugh at how unprofessional they are when the league is doing its best to portray a professional image.

As the Big V is delagate based each club gets a equal vote which is a bit like communism...In theory its great but hey it really don't work long term!

The voting sturture means the lower division get the same love and attention from the head office whch really should be pumping up the Champ Div as the centre piece fire and foremost....thats my main thought.


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HO
Last year
13:46 15 Feb 13

Reply #404583

re: Big V Restructure

Couple of good calls there TW.

I think the championship needs to be a little bigger, but what it needs most is depth. How long since Ringwood and Waverley have not been in finals? It is too easy now for a medium assoc to come in, buy a team, and be competitive. There are no incentives in place for genuine development programs cause it is too easy to cherry pick someone elses. Hume City are a good example of this, they appear to have a limited development pathway, so are buying players regularly, basically to be mediocre.

CR, the structure of senior Victorian basketball cannot be just left to the teams in the BigV. It needs to be a basketball decision.

If the sport aspires to the "every assoc has a senior program concept" then in no way can it be left to the bigV members/bigv management to create that. The CBL and their management have to be involved as do all the associations who currently do not play senior ball.

The point about nuffy youtube shows is interesting. I have been a critic too. These guys spend all their time and energy marketing to themselves. This weeks final whistle column is full of the same rubbish, and instead of staking some legitimate commentary, they again have to stoop to giving players nicknames, as if to show how clever they can be. How does that stuff appeal to anyone but those in the league? Surely they would be better of focusing their stories on generating legitimate league coverage in other media sources?

The problem with the youtube stuff is the players like it cause they get to be on tv for ten minutes so the league justifies it because "everyone likes it". That serves a bit of a purpose but goes too far in my opinion.


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Panther City
Last year
14:04 15 Feb 13

Reply #404589

re: Big V Restructure

To anonymous who posted this about Wallan:
"Wallan. A Pub and a freeway.
What's at Wallan?"

It is a growing area on the outskirts of Melbourne.

Wallan is a long way off being like alot of other associations but there is a group of awesome VOLUNTEERS who work hard to buid a club.

http://www.sportingpulse.com/assoc_page.cgi?c=11-4058-0-0-0

Hope they make Big V soon.


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Panther City
Last year
14:05 15 Feb 13

Reply #404590

re: Big V Restructure

Or you could check out

http://www.facebook.com/WallanPanthersBasketball


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Anonymous
Last year
14:20 15 Feb 13

Reply #404598

re: Big V Restructure

Big V should take over running CBL and MMBL and that could form the lower levels, maybe even reigonalise the lower ones?


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Moses Malone
Last year
14:50 15 Feb 13

Reply #404611

re: Big V Restructure

Would the league benefit if Big V made Division 1 and below an amateur competition with exemptions for Import's in country teams?

The talent level appears to be spread far too thin. Far too many weak players occupying positions at Championship level and too many playing in a league below their abilities collecting pay cheques.

The league needs a best of the best Championship competition otherwise how can the league and clubs develop players to the best of their abilities? I'd also pull back on the promotion of the lower leagues. They seem to give as much press to the duds as they do studs.....kids believe the hype!!!

You don't see the AFL pumping up the VFL






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Anonymous
Last year
15:49 15 Feb 13

Reply #404625

re: Big V Restructure

HO/TW you both make excellent points regarding the confusing messages coming from BigV. They appear to be the peoples league based on participation not competition.
The TV show and final whistle are cringe worthy, completely agree that they are only marketing to themselves, you cant call yourself a professional elite league with inside jokes and childish pranks that can ONLY appeal to insiders and league participants. You will never attract and reach a broader audience while its so "in house".


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Anonymous
Last year
15:52 15 Feb 13

Reply #404631

re: Big V Restructure

Big V shouldnt be about participation, thats why ALL associations have domestic comps. If you want to play a good quality (D3) standard game then go play domestic A grade at MSAC.
We are way to focused on the majority and making them happy than improving the minority. I am not suggesting we preclude the majority but we need to work on improving quality which feeds up through the ranks.


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Anonymous
Last year
16:19 15 Feb 13

Reply #404636

re: Big V Restructure

malo hicks started off in D3, sometimes you need to support lower levels.

Plus think about the communities that go along and support their team whom they feel a connection with.

There was more spectators at the D1M Grand final series than at the SCM gift series. Then there was more at the D2 GFSeries


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HO
Last year
16:23 15 Feb 13

Reply #404638

re: Big V Restructure

404631

The problem is quality is relative but competitive needs are not.

As I said earlier the CBL seems to have stepped up. So you now get Portland playing Hamilton and Mt Gambier playing Swan Hill for example. I am sure few of those sides are as good as MSAC A Grade but the fact is the sport needs those sides playing each other in an organised competition, week in week out. That is what the sport needs.

In tune with that, if one of those sides (programs) starts to excel, then you need somewhere for them to go.

Right now the pathway is neither easy or clear. The step from CBL to BigV in terms of costs is big, and if the BigV was run well, then on court presentation and the like would also be a big step.

You can't just rationalise it away and say well that is shit quality ball so let them play domestic somewhere.

One of the reasons Country Footy is pre-eminent is because it has town versus town delivery. Likewise the Ammo's and EFL and WDFL are all important competitions within their own communities because they represent something.

if footy took your approach there would probably only be 6-7 country footy leagues.


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The voice of Reason
Last year
16:25 15 Feb 13

Reply #404640

re: Big V Restructure

How Big was McKinnon when they entered the Big V

Started in Lowest Division


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Anonymous
Last year
17:17 15 Feb 13

Reply #404658

re: Big V Restructure

Lets cut to the chase here, we need to remember the strongest victorian clubs play in SEABL, really BigV is a second tier state based league.


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HO
Last year
18:10 15 Feb 13

Reply #404668

re: Big V Restructure

#404658

So other than making a point completely irrelevant to the topic and the conversation, how is that cutting to the chase? Like, tell us, precisely.


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VP
Last year
18:18 15 Feb 13

Reply #404674

re: Big V Restructure

The Big V tried having a Division 3 but it just didn't work.

The current structure has been the best for many years especially with 2 Pools in Div 1 Men & Women.

The teams tht occupy Div 2 are there for a reason - they don't have the skills or depth at the moment but in time can progress to Div 1.

Some Clubs in Div 1 are struggling to retain good players and will find themselves being relegated to Div 2.

While some of the clubs who moved up to Div 1 in the last restructure have recruited well and are setting higher bench marks for other Clubs to aim for.

Yes some Championship Clubs are not improving and don't look like they will in the short term but with new teams coming through in Corio & Werribee & McKinnon it adds a fresh look to the Mens & Womens competitions.

It's all about the natural cycle of any sport as teams come & go, players come & go, coaches come & go and all this impacts the way the competition is perceived.

The Big V needs to focus on its own competition as SEABL & CBL being the competitions above & below it provide opportunities for further growth & development.


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HO
Last year
18:35 15 Feb 13

Reply #404685

re: Big V Restructure

So VP, tell us why D3 did not work. What qualifies as a competition not working?


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Melbourne Boy
Last year
19:33 15 Feb 13

Reply #404708

re: Big V Restructure

I know for a fact that for next year 4 teams have already approached Big V about moving from Div 1 to Championship, the League wants 14 teams in Champ. Part of the proposals are the spending of $$ on imports and recruits as well as what lies beneath in juniors. The teams who go up will in their first season be better equipped than the lower teams in championship at the moment.


Different topic... Whats Wrong with having Championship as an elite competition and then going down even to a division 4 where the teams are weaker? I know there is an issue with refs but a small club is better with a team in div 4 than none at all when it comes to junior development. Look at State soccer, the premier teams spend $500k on players whereas the low divisions pay players nothing, sometimes clubs experience growth on and off the court and in coming years progress up the ranks, wouldn't that be good for the sport?


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HO
Last year
20:26 15 Feb 13

Reply #404718

re: Big V Restructure

Melbourne Boy, its not a different topic. Its an option and a reasonable one if people are serious about a restructure.


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The voice of Reason
Last year
20:54 15 Feb 13

Reply #404725

re: Big V Restructure

One day a club starts out small then grows and grows until it is at its full potential then as the area ages so does the intrest in junior basketball unless it can remain in a growth area
The reason larger clubs dont want new clubs in BigV as they will no longer have feeder clubs

ie mornington penninsula Frankston SEABL

Sth Penn ...Mornington Chelsea...Western Port is this to many clubs from the 1 area


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Anonymous
Last year
21:16 15 Feb 13

Reply #404729

re: Big V Restructure

Rapid expansion causes dilution of the competition standard. The knock on effect of this is players not improving because the standard of competition doesnt push them to.
How often do you see clubs advertising for players or having open tryouts? This is unhealthy as it demonstrates that the playing stocks within their own program are light on..

Id like to see 3 things:

1) Hard promotion/relegation up/down Divs based on winning lower Divs
2) Restrict imports in Div 1 to 1 import and 0 imports for Div 2 and below.
3) YL qualification restricted to U23 club juniors only. i.e you must have played Jnr Basketball for your club to play in their YL Team with a 2 "non jnr" exemption rule for YL.


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Melbourne Boy
Last year
23:38 15 Feb 13

Reply #404744

re: Big V Restructure

HO, different talking point from the thread i meant, and i hope they do grow more divisions and teams.

Anon#729, in the same post you call for no expansion of smaller teams as there is too many in 1 area, and then you want to put a restriction on youth league players must only be from their own club apart from 2 recruits. Where will the players from the clubs without a YL team go after 18's or 20's?


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Melbourne Boy
Last year
23:40 15 Feb 13

Reply #404745

re: Big V Restructure

Sorry, Voice of reason mentioned the area, Anon is against expansion, my bad but point remains about smaller clubs not having Big V.


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HO
Last year
07:45 16 Feb 13

Reply #404779

re: Big V Restructure

TVOR - where is there any evidence at all that larger clubs don't want smaller clubs in the BigV? Did you just make that up?

#404729 - i am not a huge fan of imports in lower divisions but think you have to allow them for country programs.


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The voice of Reason
Last year
09:59 16 Feb 13

Reply #404797

re: Big V Restructure

I speak from my knowledged learnt while playing coaching and now watching basketball or a lot of yers at various levels


ie ....how many local breed players playing in Know Frankstons Sandringhams and Kilsyth

If you real want to improve basketball break the city into Zones

Each zone represented in SEBAL Championship Div1 Div2 DLeague 1 and D League2

I also believe that there should be a system for young players who do not get a chance to play for an association due parents work committments or lack money to still be able to show case there talent and skills

Lets not make this a sport that unless you have money you cannot play


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Anonymous
Last year
10:46 16 Feb 13

Reply #404808

re: Big V Restructure

All the BigV is doing is taking the same approach as how local footy is run.
There's nothing wrong with it, do people talk about local footy standards diluted?
You want to play elite, you play SCM, YCM, or SEABL. Just like footy Div1 or VFL. Otherwise the lower divisions are the same thing as Div2,3,4 in local footy. You concentrate on limiting the amount of teams and you can come with the problem of limited junior participation and loss of interest as they move up the age groups ranks.
You gotta keep the kids interested in representing the club, and them having a senior team, regardless of the division they play can do that.
So instead of putting the BIgV down for the model, should be applauding them, it's no different from any other sport that's played in the Melbourne area.


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Anonymous
Last year
11:09 16 Feb 13

Reply #404814

re: Big V Restructure

^ Anon, the issue that has long been front and centre is the top div isnt showcased as being elite or the top, it gets lost amongst the other divs.


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The voice of Reason
Last year
11:25 16 Feb 13

Reply #404818

re: Big V Restructure

Anon

How does this sound for each level getting it own identity

NBL
SEABL
Premier VBA
Big V Div1
Big V Div2
CBA
MMBL


Plus Victorian D League Div 1 & 2


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Anon
Last year
11:28 16 Feb 13

Reply #404820

re: Big V Restructure

Interesting that the SEABL have stated they are going to turn their youtube preview show into one that has a lot more humor and light hearted banter about it.


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Anonymous
Last year
14:42 16 Feb 13

Reply #404847

re: Big V Restructure

A heap of our junior players watch Big V Tv and it is often spoke about.


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HO
Last year
15:00 16 Feb 13

Reply #404854

re: Big V Restructure

TVOR,

"I speak from my knowledged learnt while playing coaching and now watching basketball or a lot of yers at various levels"

ok thanks for this opinion.

I differ, I have never seen or heard any of the bigger clubs (SEABL) actively deter the aspirations of a smaller one in joining BigV. I don't think it makes any difference to them at all.

The reality is the Bigs recruit. They will recruit who they want up to the budget they want to spend. I think the bigs, considering their volume, are on the whole poor developers of talent. Knox to my mind significantly underachieve and have for a long time, Kilsyth similar. Nunawading and Dandenong have tended to produce good kids long term. Frankston hit and miss and I can only think of a few that have genuinely come through Sandringham's program.

Your zone proposal in turn sounds like someone who has an arrogant (and unfounded) view of what good the bigs can do for developing talent.


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HO
Last year
15:08 16 Feb 13

Reply #404860

re: Big V Restructure

#404808

huh? the BigV had a good model a few years back, when they ran smaller size divisions from D3 through championship, with some consistent promotion and relegation. They have broken that, really messed with it, first by conferencing D2 then by advancing that conferencing to D1 (causing the reverse hour glass) and now, according to Anon, they are going to kill that conference structure - all within three seasons.

Sorry, seems to me like they were trying to fix things that weren't broken. Certainly does not seem like a plan.

I also agree with 404814, in that they fail to really promote and deliver the championship as their showcase.


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Anonymous
Last year
15:25 16 Feb 13

Reply #404861

re: Big V Restructure

HO, the reason that SCM/W isnt showcased is because of how BigV is run.. Its being kept level or roughly "equal" in stature to the other divs for a reason.
BigV is run by the participatory clubs, the majority of votes about structure and direction are held by the clubs who make up the majority or the lower divisions, in effect the clubs who participate in SCM/W have little to no impact as they only carry a few votes. Until The LEAGUE Management determine direction and not the members it wont change.


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CR
Last year
15:30 16 Feb 13

Reply #404862

re: Big V Restructure

Heh @HO sorry, I left the thread for a day ... LOL ...

You said earlier the structure of basketball is a basketball decision, not a Big V decision ... absolutely agree.

But the problem is that BV seem just to operate as a peak body and individual associations emerge over time with member clubs and take a slice of the "market" - VJBL, Big V, MMBL, SEABL ... the overall structure does not seem to be managed by BV, it is just left to evolve.

OK so that was a personal observation - allowed to evolve, not managed.

Do you think that's a fair comment ? Is the underlying issue the role BV plays in overseeing basketball in the state ?


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Anon
Last year
23:03 16 Feb 13

Reply #404997

re: Big V Restructure

Both leagues have recognised that sitting out on their own does not help the cause. SEABL are now part of Basketball Australia, and at their last AGM Big V voted to become a commission within Basketball Victoria as part of the wider restructure of basketball in the state. Part of this was the merge of Basketball Victoria D-League and Big V Youth League to form the Big V Victorian Youth Championship. SEABL know to stay relevant they have to underpin the National league and it is great seeing both leagues taking these proactive steps for the good of basketball.


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HO
Last year
10:04 17 Feb 13

Reply #405041

re: Big V Restructure

CR, excellent observation on BV. An impotent organisation, hamstrung by the political strength of the big associations. At the time the d-league was created, a competition that took teams out of BigV and effectively mirrored its structure, many associations in the BigV were angry, but BV did nothing to stop it or could do nothing to stop it, one or the other. I understand that the whole thing cost the BigV a lot of cash.

However, one of the strengths of basketball in Victoria, as opposed to Basketball Victoria has clearly been the independence of those groups as well over the years. The VJBL and to some extent BigV have become the powerhouses they have because of their somewhat independent structures.

Anon, if what you say is true, and I don't know much about it, did BV convince the BigV clubs to become a Commission because they had a bigger, better plan?


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CR
Last year
10:53 17 Feb 13

Reply #405045

re: Big V Restructure

It's a pity there is not more open information from all relevant parties on the whole "new SEABL" (UPL) thing ...

A couple of years back BV published some information about the DL/YL merger and promised regular updates, but nothing further was forthcoming. That did eventually happen, but not a lot of public communication around it.

Same for Big V - no publishing of AGM information or similar to know what decisions have been made by member clubs. Unless you are a club delegate at an AGM, good luck finding out what is going on.

Ideally all key bodies involved in the sport should communicate much more openly with the wider basketball community around these strategic issues. IMO ...


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xxx
Last year
22:31 17 Feb 13

Reply #405187

re: Big V Restructure

The divide between SEABL and Big V hurts the game in Victoria


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Anonymous
Last year
23:05 17 Feb 13

Reply #405190

re: Big V Restructure

Voice of Reason

8 of 12 of Frankston's players are Frankston juniors or have played Juniors at the club


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Anon
Last year
23:29 17 Feb 13

Reply #405194

re: Big V Restructure

You can play Big V which is a realistic path for juniors to aspire to their clubs senior program. Or you can play SEABL where unless you are in the elite of the elite, as a junior, opportunities are few and far between. The SEABL competition is definitely miles ahead but it is becoming a bit of a space race to see who can keep up with the big spending associations. The same associations whose juniors don't get a look in as they work towards becoming the NBL underpinning league.
One would think that the point of a senior program for all associations would be a team for your juniors to aspire to.
This is not a knock on the SEABL or Big V as these two competitions both do a solid job for their respective associations.


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Tiger Watcher
Last year
07:35 18 Feb 13

Reply #405215

re: Big V Restructure

@xxx - There will always be a gap between the leagues as the SEABL clubs are larger and spend a signifcantly larger amount of money on thier senior programs than those in the Big V.

Both have a place as not every club can afford or has the facilits to cater for SEABL plus the talent pool isn't massive so having a gap means players will asipre to get better and hopefully make the step up to SEABL.


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Bear
Last year
08:05 18 Feb 13

Reply #405216

re: Big V Restructure

In the overall scheme of things and in particular relavance to the original post, every Victorian Basketball Association needs to have the opportunity to develop their program via their juniors.

The PATHWAY is the key, so clearing up the system a bit by providing pathways for the kids to stay in the sport of basketball as they grow into young adults should be the number one criteria, IMO!

Therefore growth is not an issue, as long as it is supported by grass roots, through to the top in a clear and sensible system of governance.


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Anonymous
Last year
08:36 18 Feb 13

Reply #405219

re: Big V Restructure

XXX, no Club, regardless of the size or quality of their program will ever produce enough juniors to fill a competitive SEABL Roster, so you have 2 choices, either dumb the product (SEABL League) down to a point where your juniors are competitive or recruit players in to compliment the good juniors you have.
Nobody in their right mind would want to see the competition standard of SEABL drop.
Lets not over look the fact that many clubs lose their better players to College, Europe, NBL etc, so that further erodes your available juniors.
BigV offers divisions at lower standards, its more likely a Div 1 club can fill a roster from their Juniors than say a Champ Team.


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Anonymous
Last year
08:37 18 Feb 13

Reply #405220

re: Big V Restructure

Its a pity then that so many assoc dont develop junior players and just recruit to fill senior teams.
Its about time BV and BA got serious about coach development and setting standards.


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The voice of Reason
Last year
12:02 18 Feb 13

Reply #405274

re: Big V Restructure

Guys everyone is missing the point we need all levels of basketball. As with out these levels a great player may fall through the holes and be lost to the game

The job of all associations is to aspire to produce the best possible talent

Has the game become an elitist sport where only the wealthy can play I ask the question

I thought there was room for everyone in this sport


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HO
Last year
12:13 18 Feb 13

Reply #405276

re: Big V Restructure

#405219 & #405220 both make good sense here.

If we want every assoc to have a senior program (relative to their size and competitive standard) then a great deal of work needs to be done on the structure of senior basketball in Victoria - MMBL, CBL and BigV.

My problem is who is going to show that leadership and actually build that structure?

The BigV cannot continue the way it is now, and send the signals it sends, if the sport wants a holistic structure. The example I use is Corio Bay, and people misunderstand this, I am not down on the club itself, they have taken the opportunity presented and followed the path as it works for them.

But, to allow CB straight into Championship, with little senior experience, no real quality junior talent in the mix and by virtue of a significant recruiting drive is completely sending the wrong signal for how programs should go about building themselves. The league justified this with a "means justifies the ends" type approach, in that they were competitive, but on the whole they sent really poor signals to the whole competition that the way you succeed in BigV is by recruiting and spending $.

BV are impotent, so it will be interesting to see if anyone is strategic enough to step up and make the call.


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LC
Last year
12:17 18 Feb 13

Reply #405279

re: Big V Restructure

HO, I totally agree with all your comments in relation ot this matter and think you have summarised it quite nicely.


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The voice of Reason
Last year
12:28 18 Feb 13

Reply #405283

re: Big V Restructure

HO dont disagree with you hence the need for structure within Basketball

Basketball Australia should sit at the top and have full control of all levels of Basketball

We have NBL and WNBL as our Premier League

SEABL has and will always sit at No 2

In Victoria case

Big V Chamionship rename this to give it a better image ie Victrian Premier Basketball League

Next Level Big V Division 1
Next Level Big V Division 2

then Division 1 Youth League
then Division 2 Youth League

Maybe a way into BigV should only be allowed via the Youth League so all can see how they have developed thier Youth


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Bear
Last year
12:35 18 Feb 13

Reply #405288

re: Big V Restructure

HO, you are probably correct when you point out there is a lack of leadership and direction at the top levels of the Victorian Basketball heirarchy, I think...

Who will step up to the plate and really show their hand to take on the responsibility and provide strong direction here though, not sure that person actually exists?


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HO
Last year
12:55 18 Feb 13

Reply #405293

re: Big V Restructure

TVOR, you have had two posts now wanting to rename levels of the BigV competition. Not sure you are getting the point.

The structure of the BigV has problems now. Entry into bigV is not clear, in terms of a pathway, and there is some scope in country for the next level of teams, but probably not in metro. renaming some divisions does not help with that.

Additionally, the objectives and language of the BigV are contradictory.

As for the SEABL will always be there, well, it nearly wasn't twice in the last decade.... and given its cost structure, it will become more and more a plaything for large metro/regional associations.


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Tiger Watcher
Last year
13:48 18 Feb 13

Reply #405303

re: Big V Restructure

All levels have a place and we need SEABL as the key step between NBL/semi-professional.

With the Big V as the feeder in Victoria underneath the SEABL the structure as such can work if all groups talk and work together which i guess if wishful thinking.


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CR
Last year
14:04 18 Feb 13

Reply #405307

re: Big V Restructure

@TW well surely it shouldn't be wishful thinking if BV took an active leadership role in the sport.

And it is not that clear yet exactly what SEABL is going to become when it ceases to be SEABL.

It should help if done right ... but as @HO as pointed out, the whole structure of SEABL (UPL) down to Big V and then to CBL/MMBL all has to fit together in a coherent fashion and provide the right levels of competition and cost structure to suit each assoication (hopefully all) that want to field a senior team.

I think the biggest problem is decided if you just let the "free market" work out which clubs play in which competition, or if you create a "framework" with rules that define how it should happen.

Don't have a solution for that - over to you @HO !


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CR
Last year
14:04 18 Feb 13

Reply #405308

re: Big V Restructure

p.s. really enjoying this thread, one of the more constructive threads I have seen on hoops for a while ... good work all ...


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The voice of Reason
Last year
14:41 18 Feb 13

Reply #405317

re: Big V Restructure

Maybe new clubs wanting to join BigV should enter via the D League prove that are worthy of a spot then if meeting requirements move to Div 2 etc


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Anonymous
Last year
14:48 18 Feb 13

Reply #405318

re: Big V Restructure

The biggest problem in Victoria is BV do not run BigV. BigV is a free wheeling stand alone entity run by its member clubs, most of whom do not field teams at the highest level in the state anyway so you can see an immediate problem already.

With BA taking control of SEABL it will effectively be the UPL (if it isn't already).

For the state based competitions to work effectively with the SEABL to NBL pathway the state governing body's need to take control of their state based competitions, set proper structures and guidelines and take direction from BA.
Imagine a state of origin for each Div if every state fell into line??


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CR
Last year
14:56 18 Feb 13

Reply #405319

re: Big V Restructure

^Anon all associations in Victoria that run the major competitions are "free wheeling" entities run by member clubs - SEABL, Big V, MMBL, VJBL.

There was a lot of discussion earlier in the thread about this along the lines of BV becoming an overall controlling entity rather than a passive peak body.

No SEABL is not yet the UPL - UPL is a generic name for a new competition that will sit under NBL/WNBL. The first step was to break off D-League and merge it back to state competitions, which has happened.

SEABL has already voted to dissolve itself - the next step is the transition to a new competition, but that is still in progress because SEABL, BA and maybe other parties are still working out how this new competition will be structured.


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HO
Last year
15:08 18 Feb 13

Reply #405321

re: Big V Restructure

TVOR, how does that help? You can't gauge how a club will go based solely on how a group of Under 23's play against each other.

I get the impression you think senior basketball starts only at the bottom end of BigV?


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Anonymous
Last year
15:12 18 Feb 13

Reply #405322

re: Big V Restructure

CR, weather you like it or not SEABL is already the UPL for want of a better name by standard and default.

SEABL is now under the transitional control of BA and was run by a committee of independent delegates.

A change of name, the inclusion of a few more teams and exclusion of a few weaker teams isn't going to change a whole lot as 95% of what already exists will stay the same including the standard of competition.


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HO
Last year
15:23 18 Feb 13

Reply #405324

re: Big V Restructure

#405318

So lets play devils advocate for you.

Victoria, despite all the structural faults outlined here, has IMO developed the best and most progressive models for representative competition in Australia.

For all I criticize the BigV here, I also acknowledge it is their governance structure that has created something of a juggernaut over many years.

I sincerely question the capacity of BV to manage this. I also question whether BA these days have the wherewithal to set a path. And, many good people, who could help, are no longer working in the sport.


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CR
Last year
15:30 18 Feb 13

Reply #405325

re: Big V Restructure

^Anon yes and no ... SEABL still has it's own board as far as I am aware ...

The SEABL Chairman commented in Dec 2012 that a full transition plan would be in place in around 3 - 6 months.

Of course, key elements of SEABL will carry forward to the new competition ... what changes, who knows, happy to just wait and see.


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HO
Last year
09:01 19 Feb 13

Reply #405427

re: Big V Restructure

ok, here's a crack at a new structure, and some of this I have alluded to earlier.

First, the premise is that BV should be aiming for every senior association to have a rep program, even Heyfield (oh yeah, they used to....) and all the other smalls.

Second, the BigV structure right now is assumed to be broken, and someone needs to take control of messaging and culture.

Third, this has problems, particularly the in-balance that often exists between mens and womens programs within an association.

so... first up.

I would restructure BigV in 2014 to reflect a hard line structure, with four divisions, with a MAXIMUM of 12 and minimum of 8 teams in each division. Fix the draw so everyone plays 20 or 22 games. Final four in each.

So you would have

Champ
D1
D2
D3

There would be promotion-relegation between the bottom three divisions 1up/1down or 2up/2down - probably the latter. I am not sure of promo/relegation between Champ and D1 - think this needs to be done more selectively.

I would restrict imports, one for Division one and none below D1. Champ I would leave with 2 restricted players. I would allow a country team outside of a regional centre (Ballarat, Bendigo, Geelong) a further import in D1. (so Warrnambool, Mildura, Sthn pen...

Then I would rebuild MMBL as a weekend comp for teams not playing in BigV. Only one team per association, cannot enter if you are in BigV already, winter only. So MMBL becomes a comp for all the metro teams not in another competition.

If the MMBL needs to move into conferences (metro west/metro east) then fine.

Finally, the CBL all conference champion and the MMBL all conference champion would play off in an all state final. The winner takes a spot in D3, and the bottom place getter in D3 is demoted.

A few keys here:
- this formalises a pathway between CBL/MMBl and BigV
- The BigV can have as few as 32 teams or as many as 48 but would probably settle in the first year at 42-44.
- BV would subsidise a CBL/MMBL team moving up into BigV by paying 65% of their entry fee in Year 1 and 35% in Year 2. This helps ease the massive jump in costs for a program.
- this structure reduces the need or emphasis (CB again) to go and recruit most of your team, in that you can only move one level at a time.
- entry to BigV is no longer by application, you get there if you are good enough, BUT, BigV can prevent you climbing beyond D3 if your venue does not meet criteria
- I would not have BigV managing CBL and MMBL. Better to leave those in the hands of their current membership, but with some harmonising of standards and requirements - the BigV is left with its own competition to manage and promote, rather than adding dozens of teams into the bottom end which they feel obliged to also promote.
- it may be that one management group run MMBL and CBL
- I would have a single referees manager managing all officials at all levels, fulltime, and i would tell the SEABL this person also manages the Victorian officials refereeing SEABL - this initiative gives a much better pathway for referees
- at the bottom end, every CBL and MMBL program must have both a mens and womens team unless the alternate gender was playing BigV. So Corio Bay could be in champ men and CBL women. Corio Bay could not however also play CBL men

haven't proof read - long enough as it is.


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CR
Last year
09:26 19 Feb 13

Reply #405430

re: Big V Restructure

@HO ... nice work man ... no doubt many people will try and pick holes in your plan, but at least you have come up with a pretty solid basic structure.

My only question/comment would be the move of MMBL to a weekend comp ... I have heard that one of the attractions of MMBL to some players is that it is mid week so does not interfere with their busy weekend party schedule. But that's just a minor point.

What are you running for president of BV ?

Oh and in your spare time, perhaps a tilt at PM ?????


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HO
Last year
09:36 19 Feb 13

Reply #405434

re: Big V Restructure

Very funny CR. It as enormous frustration to me that we never see state presidents and the like enunciate their vision - but I ain't gunna be a politician..!


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Bear
Last year
10:15 19 Feb 13

Reply #405439

re: Big V Restructure

Reasonable effort HO, very reasonable...


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Anonymous
Last year
10:45 19 Feb 13

Reply #405446

re: Big V Restructure

Nice effort HO, good luck on the Referee front though, SEABL now comes under control of BA so there are plans i'm told to form a SEABL only Referee panel with the top 20 or so Vic officials only officiating SEABL.

BigV will get use of the lower panels.


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Anonymous
Last year
11:05 19 Feb 13

Reply #405451

re: Big V Restructure

Always having a dig at CB for recruiting a team of local players who have previously played at the club for CBL. How about Bulleen splashing out the cash this season with all their recruits?


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HO
Last year
11:11 19 Feb 13

Reply #405455

re: Big V Restructure

#405451

Try reading what I wrote. I actually had a dig at the league.


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CR
Last year
12:43 19 Feb 13

Reply #405465

re: Big V Restructure

^^Anon I can assure you that with a WNBL team Bulleen do not have money to splash around on Big V.

Not sure how it's happening the men's recruits, must be some other magic being weaved there.


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CR
Last year
12:45 19 Feb 13

Reply #405468

re: Big V Restructure

ooops make that "with the men's recruits"

@HO disappointed at your lack of resolve to move into politics ... LOL ...

But I agree with you on the lack of vision - no one wants to paint the picture do they.


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Anonymous
Last year
12:48 19 Feb 13

Reply #405470

re: Big V Restructure

bulleen must have cash as Sturt is getting about $18k and if the imports are playing under the normal import contracts (dept of imigration) then they must be on $25k deals.


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HO
Last year
12:56 19 Feb 13

Reply #405473

re: Big V Restructure

Here is how rubbish I am at politcs, could not even name the BV state President.

nor SA, or WA or NSW....!


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Bluey
Last year
13:03 19 Feb 13

Reply #405474

re: Big V Restructure

Why was Mildura allowed to stay in Div 1 when they won the title last season?? They should be made to go to championship.


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CR
Last year
13:16 19 Feb 13

Reply #405477

re: Big V Restructure

@HO for your enlightenment ...

http://www.basketballvictoria.com.au/index.php?id=64


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HO
Last year
13:17 19 Feb 13

Reply #405478

re: Big V Restructure

Bluey, i think its a big step from D1 to champ. From what i hear mildura do not have much young talent on the bench.


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HO
Last year
13:22 19 Feb 13

Reply #405479

re: Big V Restructure

thanks CR, i recognise some names there.


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CR
Last year
13:29 19 Feb 13

Reply #405482

re: Big V Restructure

@HO yeah, me too ... and the ones I know of are good people, a bit surprised given that list BV is not more proactive around some of these issues.

Nick Honey has only just take over from Wayne Bird in the Big Chair, so will be interesting to see what eventuates over the next little while ...


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