CK
Years ago

Div 1 semi finals

I was at Wayville last night for the Div 1 semi finals and could not believe how one sided most of the games were.

In the 16 Boys Sturt beat Norwood by heaps and West cruised home against North.

The 18 Boys was even worse. Sturt beat North by about 50, and Norwood beat West by about 20 although at one stage it was out to close to 30.

Is the comp really that lopsided? While it was good to see the winning teams play so well, it would have been better to see some closer games.

Let's hope the grand finals are a bit closer.

Topic #30999 | Report this topic


Anonymous  
Years ago

They could have been 1v4 matchups, in which case only the 50 point win would really surprise me.

Reply #407373 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

The top clubs call it great planning and the rest of the world call it poaching.there is no competition at district level and never will be until defined areas are apportioned to each club.

Reply #407375 | Report this post


Really  
Years ago

So how does that work in Victoria where they have the best competition but no defined areas?

Reply #407377 | Report this post


red80  
Years ago

#373, they couldn't have all been 1v4 matchups! Both semis in each of those grades were really one sided. The West v North 16s and the Norwood v West 18s were 2v3.

Reply #407381 | Report this post


Coeezy  
Years ago

Defined district areas mean leave little choice. If something goes wrong at one club, do you expect the parents to move their child just to play for another club?

Reply #407448 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Works for SANFL. Gives clubs an area to connect with and Country areas to build development pathways with.

Basketball just keeps feeding off each other.

Reply #407495 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

@Really

The greater distance to travel in Melbourne definately plays a part in discouraging movement from some of the clubs. Also, there are a larger number of competitive clubs to choose from, not just one or two like in Adelaide.

Reply #407499 | Report this post


Really  
Years ago

No it isn't working in sanfl. 7 out of 10 clubs are going broke and the comp is uncompetitve.

And most of the Melbourne clubs are concentrated on the eastern side and they have heaps more movement.

Maybe clubs here need to be more focused on being competitive rather than focusing on seniors. If you have a good u10 or 12 team and you give them good coaching all the way through. Why would they nice and why would you not have the best kids?

Reply #407502 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Really clubs going broke has nothing to do with zones.

The Zones system does work. Grows the sport. Means clubs develop the sport in their area in a positive approach.

In basketball everyone hates on everyone else trying to convince one basketballer that my club is better than that one. Meanwhile the general population plays Netball, AFL and Soccer.

Reply #407503 | Report this post


Really  
Years ago

Explain that to South Panthers who have not won a game in 3 years if u18 football! They all have to recruit and pay players at senior level rather than promote juniors. And that's why they are broke.

They don't develop players. They take players from amatuer clubs who develop them.

If they were, how does a basketballer like Tim Kloasen who has NEVER played for a club in football get drafted over all of these develop footballers from sanfl clubs?

And if you hadn't noticed sanfl clubs have dropped a team and amatuer clubs are struggling to field teams.

Reply #407505 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Explain to all the schools whom have a connection to one SANFL club how much easier it is to have kids play football.

You're comparing SANFL and their elite with the sport as a whole.

AFL added two teams, grabbed 60+ 17-19 year olds from across the country in 2 years.

SFL clubs, Country clubs are hurting the SANFL with their low costs and therefore bigger spending power.

Think Western Magic v Woodville or West Adelaide.

That's a different issue to kids playing the sport.

Reply #407506 | Report this post


Really  
Years ago

So why are more kids player basketball in Victoria than afl?

And why are some schools not even fielding football teams?

Football isn't increaseing participation rates.

Reply #407510 | Report this post


Jack Toft  
Years ago

Anon, don't bother biting. "Really" is a big a troll as Marcus Camby. I think in Really's perfect world Div 1 would be Sturt 1, Sturt 2, Sturt 3, Sturt 4.

Reply #407511 | Report this post


Really  
Years ago

No Jack. That's not a perfect world. That's just a scare mongerer attitude like the Liberal party would role out. All clubs putting forth a similar effort and focus on the juniors would be beat case. Creating a high level string competition.

Denying what works in other states and complaining about how we as a state compare is just ignorant and irresponsible.

Look at what works in other markets and take what is best for your own market. Thinking we should be guided by a dieing sanfl policy because it makes things easier for you to not do any work or improvement to have player recruitment and development is just a falsehood.

Reply #407523 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Really's head is in the sand and he is more interested in a couple of clubs growing rather than the game itself. If anyone thinks basketball is healthy here they are delusional. Fewer play into their late teens and twenties and lack of leadership is going to be the straw that breaks the camels back.

Reply #407527 | Report this post


Clydetheglide  
Years ago

We need 10 strong clubs in all grades. 2 strong clubs (forrestville really only in girls), is not enough and those complaing need to look at what they are - or arent doing to get to their level. I suggest those complaining about others successes aren't doing anything to improve their own - and by doing something means actually doing something, not sniping from the stands.

We cannot compare to the sanfl other than learning not to spend more than you earn. The sanfl has the funds coming through the afl Nd have an ownership in 2 afl teams. . Not sure how ba is supporting BSA but at some stage we have to realise that it isn't a level playing field in sport. The numbers will always have it. Just have to get the numbers.

Speaking of which.
Why are girls playing netball in a 2 team world comp? Surely our game is much more attractive. Just not being marketed well. The opportunities for girls in basketball far exceed those for a girl playing netball yet not even a competition when it comes to the numbers of participants. Time ba recognised that there is 50% of the population that they really aren't targeting well enough IMO.

Reply #407538 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

@Really

You are right that there is plenty of movement between Melbourne rep teams, however, to simply state that all Vic clubs are concentrated in the east is over simplifying things. Eastern clubs are spread across as much as 70km's of eastern Melbourne. They range as north as whittlesea to as far south as frankston. That's not even mentioning the significant number of clubs in the west you simply choose to ignore.

The point is that in Melbourne movement is spread to and from a wide number of clubs not all in one direction to one or two clubs, which is the case in Adelaide.

To argue against zones because they don't have them in Melbourne is flawed as the situation in Adelaide is very different.

Clydetheglide is right. For junior basketball to flourish in SA there must be 10 strong clubs. For this to happen there must be a new model developed applying elements of other programs and sports but only when it is successful and relevant.

What is clear is something must change as what is happening now is not working for most clubs and junior basketball in SA.

Reply #407545 | Report this post


The TRUTH  
Years ago

More players have moved to Norwood than Forestville or Sturt.

Reply #407555 | Report this post


Really  
Years ago

Why can't it be the clubs responsibility to improve?

Reply #407570 | Report this post


,  
Years ago

Agreed clubs need to take responsibility for their status

Reply #407574 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

anyone heard of loyalty!!

Reply #407597 | Report this post


aristotle  
Years ago

loyalty is great - but it is not the common currency in basketball.

tell me last time a player was selected / promoted / encouraged by loyalty.

in my workplace loyalty is seen as a dud hand for someone that is stuck / in a rut and going nowhere.

i agree loyalty is a good thing but means nothing in todays 'live for now' existence.

Reply #407604 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Really is the third world responsible for its predicament? Unless there is a fair system change will never occur.I believe its too late for basketball now and that results from the failed BASA and impotent BSA who have been asleep at the wheel.

Reply #407613 | Report this post


Jack Toft  
Years ago

Clydetheglide is correct, we need 10 strong clubs. There will always be a variation between the top and bottom clubs and teams, but that is expected. I think the biggest issue with clubs is player turnover.

I looked at one group in U18 just recently to see the difference in players from U12 to U18. Surprise, surprise, the top club had basically the same team from U12 meaning that that group had been playing together for up to 15 seasons. Of all the players playing at the club in U12, most were still there 7 years later.

With the bottom teams, there were no players from U12 still playing U18. A pretty sad inditement. While a handful had moved clubs, most had been lost to basketball.

Obviously, a team with core players that has played together for 7 years and has been able to develop under a consistent coaching style will stand a better chance of winning and being stronger than a team looking for the next big thing each year. For a team/club to be super competitive, they need to look long term and seek stability.

I am keen on zones, but not strict zone rules. I believe all players are best off at their closest club and that club should have "first bite" at that player, but obviously if that player is not happy at that club and wants to play at another club or not play basketball, then it is not in the best interest in the sport for that player to play elsewhere.

Reply #407616 | Report this post


Really  
Years ago

Jack. Isn't that how it works now? How often does a person from Gawler start playing for Forestville?

Anon. District clubs are not third world. They have options that they choose not to take. We continually see weaker clubs put all their eggs into their ABA basket then cry foul when a junior leaves. ????

Reply #407621 | Report this post


Grand Final berths:

Boys

Sturt 9 out of 10
Norwood 3 out of 10
Forestville 2 out of 10
Centrals 2 out of 10
Eastern 1 out of 10
West 1 out of 10
North 1 out of 10
Woodville 1 out of 10

NOTE:
Sturt have 2 teams in the U16 boys final
Norwood and Centrals have their first team in the U10 div 2 final.

Girls

Forestville 7 out of 10
Sturt 7 out of 10
Norwood 2 out of 10
Centrals 1 out of 10
Estern 1 out of 10
Southern 1 out of 10
Western 1 out of 10

NOTE:
Eastern and Western have their first team in the U10 div 2 final.

Overall

Sturt 16 out of 20
Forestville 9 out of 20
Norwood 5 out of 20
Centrals 3 out of 20
Eastern 2 out of 20
North 1 out of 20
Woodville 1 out of 20
Southern 1 out of 20
West 1 out of 20
Western 1 out of 20
South 0 out of 20

Reply #407657 | Report this post


Callisto  
Years ago

from the stats room, hope you don't mind me joining in...

Div 1 only, boys:
Sturt 4
Norwood 1
West 1
Centrals 1
Eastern 1
Woodville 1
North 1
Southern 0
Forestville 0
South 0

Div 1 only, girls:
Sturt 4
Forestville 4
Norwood 1
Southern 1

Reply #407678 | Report this post


observer  
Years ago

Jack Toft couldn't have said it better. My sentiments exactly. And what's with clubs bringing in kids from country areas - they can barely make trainings and are unfamiliar with plays. Talk about instability!!!

Reply #407719 | Report this post


Really  
Years ago

Jack,

Are you suggesting that kids should quit basketball rather than move clubs?

Reply #407738 | Report this post


Jack Toft  
Years ago

Really, because I like you and you have taken some time to prepare your hook. I would not like kids to drop out of the sport. As I have said, the better teams have one thing in common - stability. When a player stops playing, a club should ask itself why and is there anything we need to change or improve on. Dumb clubs don't.

Once again, have a look at the player lists of any top 4 team and you'll find most of those players have been playing as a group for some time. Look at the bottom teams and you'll see new team lists each season as well as FIFO players who play winter season only.

Reply #407785 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Observer,

Dont generalise all kids from country areas. Some make equal if not more training than the majority therefore are equally exposed to team concepts.

Reply #407789 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Jack, many people here suggest that the top clubs poach players - your suggesting that they in fact maintain consistency in large part from U/12s onwards?
That won't be a popular theory for the lazy whingers...

Reply #407793 | Report this post


Really  
Years ago

Jack,

Are you suggesting it would be better for kids to quit than be allowed to move clubs?

Reply #407804 | Report this post


dko  
Years ago

from the stats room, there are two berths for each grandfinal so numbers should read out of 20. Still doesn't diminish the domination by Sturt.

Boys

Sturt 9 out of 20
Norwood 3 out of 20
Forestville 2 out of 20
Centrals 2 out of 20
Eastern 1 out of 20
West 1 out of 20
North 1 out of 20
Woodville 1 out of 20

NOTE:
Sturt have 2 teams in the U16 boys final
Norwood and Centrals have their first team in the U10 div 2 final.

Girls

Forestville 7 out of 20
Sturt 7 out of 20
Norwood 2 out of 20
Centrals 1 out of 20
Estern 1 out of 20
Southern 1 out of 20
Western 1 out of 20

Reply #407807 | Report this post


observer  
Years ago

Still think Jack Toft has hit nail on the head. Still believe most country players are disruptive if they can't make trainings. Would love to know what others think ....

Reply #407812 | Report this post


NO!  
Years ago

Umm, dko..........no.

Yes there are two berths in each grand final, but it is not possible for Sturt to fill all of them. For exdample, in Div 1 boys there are 5 grand finals containing a total of ten teams. Sturt can't have all ten berths because they only have five teams in those grades.

Maybe leave the stats to the experts...

Reply #407813 | Report this post


observer  
Years ago

Still think Jack Toft has hit nail on the head. Still believe most country players are disruptive if they can't make trainings. Would love to know what others think ....

Reply #407814 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Country kids often play three games a week, and train up to 4 or 5 times, with all their commitments, locally and District, I know this for a fact and that not counting what they may do privately (Goal Practice at home)... so maybe they are the fitter ones.?. They like any other kid have to earn their spots on the team, so I don't see the problem. You dont rock up from the country and just get in without skill set. In our case we were sort out to play District, not the other way round. Sounds like a case of sour grapes from some parent thats kid hasn't made the grade...And while we are being blunt or bias about things,, Country kids have healthier fresher air to breath all week out in the country, may make for fitter healthier kids ....lol Sorry City Kids, I know that was a ridiculous comment, but I have read a few to...lol
But really, my point is, work hard, make the team whether you are City or Country Kids. There has to be winners and losers each season. Clubs play fair and don't poach weaker teams skilled players, lets make the game of Basketball the winner.

Reply #407825 | Report this post


Jack Toft  
Years ago

Anon 793, check out the player lists in u18 and compare them to when they were u12. There is some movement but the issue is that some clubs have used say 15 players for their div 1/2 over the time and they have years of experience whereas some clubs would have gone through 50 players.

The best way to stop poaching or player loss is to create a culture where kids feel safe, included, are enjoying the sport and learning/developing. The numbers lost to the sport outweigh any poached.

Reply #407832 | Report this post


Really  
Years ago

Jack,

Do you suggest kids should be forced to quit rather than be allowed to move clubs?

Reply #407835 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Really the only who should quit is you. Zones will happen but unfortunately not until after dinosaurs like you are dead. All the clubs need areas they can develop and kids need to play in the zones dictated. Country areas likewise need to be zoned to each club. Until that time we will have this lopsided social event masquarading as district ball. At the moment the playing field is heavily tilted and the weaker clubs are just hanging in there. No one wins and no one has weekly competition and fewer stay involved.

Reply #407838 | Report this post


Really  
Years ago

Actually we have more teams in the competition this season than any time in the last 6 years. Especially at u10 and u 12 level. But good try with the propaganda.

How exactly does having zones help? What is stopping clubs from developing their own areas now?

Do you really think Forestville is doing clinics at West Lakes and stealing all of Wests kids?

Do you think kiss quitting the sport is better than allowing the to move clubs?

How else can clubs know if they are not providing a good service if people can't make choices?

Reply #407839 | Report this post


,  
Years ago

Lol - kiss quitting ??? -What team was gene Simmons and Paul Stanley on before they quit?

Reply #407841 | Report this post


dko  
Years ago

No!

Okay follow your logic but Sturt and Norwood have 2 teams each in u16 div 2 so at least the numbers should be Sturt 9 from 11 (Sturt 3 v Sturt 2- Sturt 3 to win), and Norwood 2 from 11.

Reply #407842 | Report this post


Jack Toft  
Years ago

Jack,

Do you suggest kids should be forced to quit rather than be allowed to move clubs?

Really, WTF? What are you on? How would you force a kid to quit? "Oh, I'm sorry Mr Carter, we are dropping your son from Div 1 to Div 2 because we have poached a kid from West Adelaide and our club won't let you transfer" "Oh Mr Smith, we need to drop your son to Div 3 because we have got this great girl to play Div 1, but her brother needs to play Div 1 as well for transport reason. Therefore, because Carter is going to Div 2 someone needs to go to Div 3" Is that what you are on about?

Reply #407843 | Report this post


Really  
Years ago

Jack,

If a kid wants to move clubs, do you think that they should only have the option of quitting rather than being allowed to move?

Reply #407844 | Report this post


Jack Toft  
Years ago

Well der......

Reply #407852 | Report this post


Really  
Years ago

Jack,

Should they be allowed to move. Or should their only option be to quit?

Reply #407853 | Report this post


Jack Toft  
Years ago

I think my position is quite clear.

"I believe all players are best off at their closest club and that club should have "first bite" at that player, but obviously if that player is not happy at that club and wants to play at another club or not play basketball, then it is in the best interest of the sport for that player to play elsewhere."

Reply #407856 | Report this post


Ariel84  
Years ago

The problem is not the system. Happy kids and happy families do not leave clubs. The reason the competition is so lopsided is that the weaker clubs are too lazy to fix the crap they dish out. There are coaches coaching Div 1 teams at some clubs that wouldn't even get a Div 3 job at the stronger clubs. Eventually kids and their parents see that they are better off elsewhere so they move on.

All you bleating hearts should stop having a whinge and try getting your clubs' own backyards in order. Why should the successful clubs suffer just because the rest of you either don't have the skill or inclination to solve your own problems?

Reply #407858 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Here here ^^

Reply #407859 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

The funniest thing is that the clubs that got rid of good people in the past are now having their arses kick by those same people ...

Reply #407860 | Report this post


Clydetheglide  
Years ago

Consider that we are all on the same page here and it reads:

We need to improve our junior competition. We need all clubs to do what is best for
our kids and the game. A strong competition is a successful competition. We want and need all the clubs to have success. Yes we have differing perceptions on what should and shouldn't be done. But we are all passionate about our kids and the game.

I suggest most of us come from a cross section of the district clubs, but, we all see that our club cannot be successful if they are one of a few clubs that are competitive. We cannot compete successfully nationally over time if our competition isnt strong from u18 to u10. Yes we have seen success spikes but few and far between. I would much rather see my kids team finish 10th knowing that on their day they could beat the top team than finish first and beating the second team by 30pts and the bottom team by 100 pts (in div1!!!!!!!)

So how do we turn this passion into a successful junior basketball competition? Collectively and as rate paying basketball citizens, we need to stand up and demand that BA and BSA turn this poor performing system around. Remove the clubs that can't or won't align and get the grass roots of basketball growing.

IMHO

Now I have to work out how to get into the ear BSA.

Reply #407866 | Report this post


JonT  
Years ago

+1 Clydetheglide

Jack is also right. Getting kids playing basketball is really important.

I don't know much about district basketball, just what I observed as I parent of two girls who played at Woodville for four years. During this time Woodvilles younger girls teams really began to struggle. My youngest daughters team would get pumped week in week out. Despite this each season Woodville would enter them in div 1 only to lose by as much as a 100+. Obviously this is not much fun so kids just stopped playing, had their parents move them to different sports or they left for a more competlitive club. In their last year at the club Woodville lost so many kids they couldn't field an under 12's girls team so my youngest daughter had no option but to leave the club.

We now live in Melbourne and my youngest plays rep for Altona. She loves playing there. They have 21 <14 girls domestic teams across 4 divisions which have players from complete beginners to state level representatives. All games are compettative across divisions with a focus on enjoying the game and developing skills. This set up also allows even the completely new kids access to high level coaching as the rep coaches are involved in numerous domestic teams.

From these teams the rep club field 4 <14 girls rep teams. Again these kids play competitive games across the VJBL as the are not guaranteed to play at a particular level due to the grading set up where the level is decided by wins and losses.

I am amazed that basketball participation in VIc is so high. Altona are able to field 50+ rep teams and they are considered a smaller club and I haven't even mentioned the social basketball teams.

IMHO (but uneducated) this is the reason why basketball is so popular in Vic. There is a team or a game for everyone and, more importantly, these games are generally competitive. This means, for the most part, everyone is enjoying their basketball and having fun.

I think some sort of promotion/ relegation system could work in Adelaide provided some of the clubs put their ego's away and thought long term. I also think the the domestic set up could add value if someone creative could put together a model that works in Adelaide.


Reply #407884 | Report this post


supercoach  
Years ago

one step into making it a more competitive competition is getting rid of magic and making it easier for those in the western suburbs
three teams one area is never going to work

Reply #407888 | Report this post


JonT  
Years ago

Supercoach,

How is getting rid of magic (and creating less teams) the answer to a more competitive competition with more kids participating?

Surely there is a better solution than just getting rid of some teams, one that helps all clubs......

Reply #407894 | Report this post


Really  
Years ago

Jack,

Do you believe kids should be forced to quit rather than be allowed to move clubs?

Reply #408008 | Report this post


supercoach  
Years ago

look at what happened to west when magic and west tried their "merger" they suddenly improved in a lot of teams and are still reaping some of the benefits of that
what do you think if magic was disbanded and those kids had to head to west and woodville. Straight away those two clubs would improve and would continue to improve as there is one less club fighting for the same group of kids
currently west are stuggling in numbers in those younger boys and a boost from magic would help go a long way
currently woodville are struggling in number in the girls and a boost in those numbers would help a lot as well

therefore we now have woodville and west competing where they havent competed before

Reply #408016 | Report this post


Anon  
Years ago

Can another magic type club sitution occur in another part of the Adelaide
Junior District Competition ?.

Reply #408040 | Report this post


,  
Years ago

10 years ago woodville and west Fri nights was like port v Norwood football. Woodville regularly won div 3-4 titles and occasionally d2. Even less d1. West regularly competed for d1 titles and often won lower grades.

Reply #408046 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

supercoach - why isn't clubs "fighting" for the same players a good thing?
This means there is plenty of choice for players, and the clubs have to actually do something to earn their playing base and put out a quality product rather than just getting them coz there aren't many alternatives.
Instead of West and (mainly) Woodville whinging about Magic - who appear to be doing a pretty good job at "lower-level" basketball - perhaps that energy should be spent improving thier product so that Magic isn't an attractive option to so many families that way...

Reply #408076 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Anon, Grass is always greener. Basketball is challenging and it's always easy to over promise and under deliver. Doesn't develop resilliance, doesn't develop players.

Reply #408085 | Report this post


supercoach  
Years ago

the reason why magic is attractive is because of their low fees and the ability to win in lower grades because those kids should be playing in a higher division like say at WEST AND WOODVILLE

Reply #408091 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

The problem is that kids just want to have fun playing basketball, and at that age i.e. u12 and 14's kids have fun when they are winning. Therefore if they are winning at Western Magic what incentive is there for them to play div 1 at west or woodville and maybe win one or 2 games a season.

I know you will say that if they all move then they will win there as well but why would they change something if it is working for them?

Reply #408097 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

and also Anon while clubs are fighting over current players, and fighting to keep the ones they have who's promoting the sport to new families, new players, presenting a positive envirnment so kids choose basketball over football, netball and soccer.

Fightning for juniors between clubs is the worst scenario possible.

Reply #408098 | Report this post


Jack Rabbit  
Years ago

Those clubs doing well seem to be the ones getting new families into the sport.
Sturt have an Aussie hoops program as well as a 30+ team domestic ocmpetition.

Reply #408105 | Report this post




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