Anonymous
Years ago

Where is the referee accountability

I don't want a ref bashing thread but I have seen some pretty dodgy refereeing tonight and I got to thinking where is the accountability for the referees? I have had conversations with the referee in charge, even contacted BSA with a complaint but have never received any feedback on what has been said or passed on. Right now IT APPEARS that the referees have the right to conduct themselves in any manner they choose and there is little that can be done about it. Am I missing a step? Is there another neutral observer (not a referee) that can give constructive opinions to these referees or will all issues continue to fall on deaf ears?

Topic #31365 | Report this topic


Pie Cart  
Years ago

Which stadium tonight?

Reply #413074 | Report this post


Referee  
Years ago

That is untrue. As a Referee myself, we do get held accountable for our actions on court, especially if a complaint (or more than one) comes in against you.

I know of a Ref who was suspended because of his actions on a game.

We do get held acdountable, its just not for public eyes.

Reply #413075 | Report this post


bees knees  
Years ago

explain more anon so we can discuss

Reply #413077 | Report this post


PlaymakerMo  
Years ago

When there's a shortage of referees, accountability takes the back seat.

Making poor (subjective) judgement calls in a game will always happen, and shouldn't be lingered on by players and coaches.

However, when referees just don't give two shits, or are blatantly incorrect about the rules (interpretation guise FTW): this is when accountability issues really set in.

Reply #413078 | Report this post


no respect  
Years ago

Why is there a shortage of Referees?
Just askin.....

Reply #413096 | Report this post


Knowitall nawt  
Years ago

I'm a coach I complain about calls sometimes get frustrated and get teched occasionally because I yell a call out or jump out of my seat.The fact is Refs/umps are humans not robots, they make judgement calls, miss things you see, they are sometimes vindictive, biased and cruel. Fact is coaches sometimes are rude, arrogant expect everything their way, abusive yes abusive and that's the reason you get tech fouled or in the case I saw last night if you keep going after your first you end up with 3.. Now at the end of a game this seems like a crazy response from the Ref.

Fact is if you choose to tell a Ref how to do their Job you may as well punch yourself in the face.. No one likes NEGATIVE critisism and often you inspire them to look to make calls.

Refs volunteer to do this job they are not on BSA records as employees and get no benefits it's part time/casual work remember that.

As for all you Refs Umps out there, remember its about the players not the coaches, and being vengeful or holding a grudge is not professional and although you volunteer your time and don't deserve to be abused, sometimes your actions/reactions create situations that could be avoided.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

^ There is a Referee shortage all over the country at all levels for a few very good reasons. In fact there is a group working on solving many of the issues at BA level.

1) At domestic level they get too much abuse by clueless coaches, players and spectators, clubs need to be more vigilant at enforcing venue behavior code of conduct.

2)They can earn more money at Coles or Maccas, Ref's get paid low compared to other part time jobs and these jobs don't involve being abused at work.
3)Internal politics at an elite level is making people disillusioned.


These are the reasons we dont have enough refs.

Reply #413098 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

"Fact is coaches sometimes are rude, arrogant expect everything their way"

Actually, that description sounds exactly like one of the "imported" referees for the Easter carnival. And there was no accountability for his behaviour/actions at all.

Reply #413112 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

"And there was no accountability for his behaviour/actions at all."


I love these statements, what did the official do that he got away with? Are we talking behavioral issues? or did he just make calls against you??

Massive difference, from everything I've seen over the past 40 years here in Victoria Referee's RARELY get away any kind of unacceptable behavior, i.e abusing players etc, all you need to do is talk to a supervisor and explain the problems and you'll find most get spoken to. But don't complain about how the game is called, that is just the way it goes.

Reply #413117 | Report this post


Pie Cart  
Years ago

You haven't given us information ,which stadium.

It's happening all over SA with standard of refereeing,nowadays referees are being abused ,they are not perfect,coaches expect too much ,that's why junior referees are not interested in refereeing these days,a few years ago my son got abused by Forestville ,UIC not on duty that night,he resigned as he had no support/backup etc,he's at McDonald's ,why better pay no abuse comes home happy.he hasn't been near a stadium for 3 years.

Victorian referees are better trained why because the are referee coaches who go to stadiums on district games,have the passion to work with referees etc,here Gibson and co only work in an office,have no time to go out and help referees.Love those Vic referees.Come State champs in June I'm not surprised to see majority of Victorian referees.From my eyes few good mototivated referees from Adelaide.

Reply #413164 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Within a few years time,there will be no referees left.
Those coaches who abuse referees,one day will be given the whistle to see if they can do a better job.

The numbers have declined nowadays ,many solo games will happen.

Reply #413165 | Report this post


Referee  
Years ago

Mike Gibson and Neal Bridgeman actually do go out to stadiums and watch, you may not see them all the time but they do get out of the office. Get your facts right dude.

Reply #413169 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Referee coaching recently occured over state champs also.

Reply #413179 | Report this post


baller  
Years ago

haha well they may as well stay in the office because neither of the two Referee people employed by BSA understand the game or have any idea how to train refs
league coaches should work with the best referee people to train young referees & also to keep them accountable

that my six cents on the matter at hand

good night




Reply #413185 | Report this post


Referee  
Years ago

Neal Bridgeman has no idea? He is a former CABL referee for about 18 years.

Reply #413194 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

#117, I know of what the poster above you is referring to and it's not about making calls against anybody. It was to do with behavioural issues. If what I have since heard about the people affected is true, the fact that Norwood chose to let the referee get away with it, will have some fairly unfortunate consequences for Norwood. Please don't ask me to elaborate on this because out of respect to the people involved, I'm not going to.

Reply #413207 | Report this post


wrong  
Years ago

I heard the ref your talking about has already been dealt with very harshly

Reply #413208 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

"wrong" - you heard wrong.

Reply #413232 | Report this post


Bucketman  
Years ago

2)They can earn more money at Coles or Maccas, Ref's get paid low compared to other part time jobs and these jobs don't involve being abused at work.

Didn't realise shop assistants were on more than $30 per hour CASH! Not bad for your average social league in the country!

Reply #413233 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

think there are two different refs discussed on here one local on from over the border


refs get paid $11 per game on average for district
for that they get abused but not taxed, it can also be physically and mentally taxing.

our local U23 comp they get paid about $17 interstate for the same competition they get paid $70

players get paid or some do handsomely to pay ABA majority of refs get paid $50

Reply #413245 | Report this post


Bucketman  
Years ago

Where I'm from, no one gets paid except for the refs! I'm not saying they shouldn't get paid, but there is no recourse for discrepancies or occurrences that cause issues throughout games.

Reply #413250 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Bucketman, where can a ref get $30 per hour reffing domestic anywhere in Australia? They don't even get that on junior panel for Rep.

Reply #413268 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

#413207 knows the incident in question. It was not "calls against me" - I didn't have a team in the carnival - but it was most certainly behavioural and communication issues. Let's just say if the coach treated the referee the way that the referee treated the coach - well, there would have been an uproar and likely a long suspension. Yet the referee got away without any consequence at all. No accountability whatsoever!
And I wasn't going to bring it up, but since someone else has - Norwoods treatment of the incident could not have been more shambolic. Yet another great basketball mind lost to our ranks.

Reply #413283 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

How do you know the Referee "got away" with what they apparently did??

It would be standard practice to handle all incidents and complaints (you did lodge a proper complaint didn't you?) in private without the Teams or Coaches ever knowing the consequences.

Reply #413303 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Aaah, so there is no transparency with referees as well as no accountability?

Reply #413314 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

@ #314

What are you talking about? the only transparency that needs to occur is between the official in question and the referee manager, it absolutely should be delt with privately, its nobody's business how they're dealt with.

Here's a thought, would you like your boss at work chewing you out in front of all your peers and customers??

Reply #413315 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

#315 (also #303), you are generalising, and of course, normally what you're saying is correct. However you are obviously not aware of the unusual circumstances about this incident, so it might be wise not to offer an opinion.

The big problem here is not the lack of accountability anyway. The real problem was what happened afterwards, and as a result Norwood end up losing out big time.

Norwood's loss will be someone else's gain I suppose.

Reply #413335 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

@ #335

"However you are obviously not aware of the unusual circumstances about this incident, so it might be wise not to offer an opinion."

Well don't freaking post it then if you wont give all the details.

Reply #413336 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

How about you "don't freaking post" if you have no clue what you are on about. There's a few people in this thread who know what went on and you're not one of them.

Reply #413337 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

If it's not for public knowledge or consumption or discussion dont put it on a fucking public forum for people to discuss if your going to play stupid cone of silence bullshit.

Either doll out the facts or shut the fuck up about the perceived lack of accountability and transparency.

Morons seriously

Reply #413340 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

^^^^

SPOT ON.

Reply #413341 | Report this post


The Situation  
Years ago

"Here's a thought, would you like your boss at work chewing you out in front of all your peers and customers??"

No one said the hearing has to be in full view of everyone, but not telling anyone the outcome is what causes the perception of no accountability.

Reply #413342 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Not telling anyone the outcome is showing respect for the official and the process, letting people know it had been investigated and delt with would have sufficed and been the most that should happen.

Again, would you be happy if your boss went around telling everyone he chewed your butt off and disciplined you?? NO i bet.

Reply #413347 | Report this post


The Situation  
Years ago

If something I did affected something someone else did and they complained, then yes, I would expect that person would learn of the outcome. Its called "the real world."

Reply #413348 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Why do you need to know what happened to the official beyond knowing it was taken seriously and delt with???

Reply #413350 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

again there are two different conversations here I believe

One involving a ref and norwood person at easter classics

the other involved with a ref who is connected to norwood

maybe wrong but think people are talking cross purposes

Reply #413353 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Anonymous referee above - you demand players/coaches etc. to have respect for the referee fraternity - how are we supposed to respect them when one of them behaves in such a way, it seems the rest cover it up, so we don't know if the person in question has been disciplined over the incident? The fact that he continued to referee in the tournament, with pretty much the same (poor) attitude, would suggest that absolutely nothing was done!

If there was accountability for their actions - the same as players/coaches/etc have - and transparency of decisions made regarding those actions - the same as players/coaches/etc - have, then there would be no problem.

The fact that you wish for this to be swept under the rug, and you bully anyone with an opinion of the matter, suggests you are actually part of the problem being discussed.

Reply #413354 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

"If there was accountability for their actions - the same as players/coaches/etc have - and transparency of decisions made regarding those actions - the same as players/coaches/etc - have, then there would be no problem."

EQUALLY any kind of disciplinary action taken towards a Coach or Player should also be treated with respect and confidentiality.

The people wanting to be given the information about what happened are only looking to point score or gloat id suggest, hardly productive for allowing that official to return to officiating without fear of belittling or ridicule, just like all other work places id suggest, (maybe go read the Worksafe legislation on it), the Basketball court is a work place you do realize.??

The official (or coach or player) is entitled to have the matter delt in confidence. You only need to know it was taken seriously and investigated properly.

Reply #413356 | Report this post


The Situation  
Years ago

Next time a player or coach faces the tribunal for doing something outside the rules, I hope Chuck Harmison just says "its been dealt with and we took it seriously" and nothing else. That seems like the logical thing to do.

/sarcasm.

Reply #413357 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

^ A tribunal situation is completely different to an internal investigation.

Reply #413358 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

The point isnt about people wanting the information. The point is starting a topic with cloak, daggers, smoke and windows. If the full extent of the matter cant be told dont post the comment at all. If the content is confidential and private keep it that way.

This he said she said cover up no transparency is just bollocks when there is no content and if there shouldnt be any content dont post in the first place ya posturing roosters

Reply #413359 | Report this post


The Situation  
Years ago

"A tribunal situation is completely different to an internal investigation."

The process is different but why shouldn't the right to confidentiality exist?

If I was a club official and made a complaint, I'd want to know that the matter was dealt with to my satisfaction. That doesn't mean I want someone suspended for a tiny mistake - the punishment obviously has to fit the crime.

The reason why I'd want to know is because if it happened again, you'd know that the lip service of "its been dealt with" is obviously not working so you could then escalate the issue.

I'd also suggest that if I was satisfied with the outcome, it provides closure for that incident, not the perception that nothing was done.

Reply #413360 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

"If I was a club official and made a complaint, I'd want to know that the matter was dealt with to my satisfaction. "

YOUR satisfaction??? HUH? You're making the assumption the other party was in the wrong and you were in the right.

TOO often i see people bitterly complain about an official and they're CLEARLY the ones in the wrong.!!!!

There are mechanisms for reporting officials and making complaints, people need to use those processes or just walk away.

Reply #413361 | Report this post


The Situation  
Years ago

Forget it. You are too stupid for words. People like you are the reason the divide between refs and players/coaches grows.

Reply #413362 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I am the person who started this thread and I am sure that can be confirmed if necessary... I didn't coach/referee/ attend the Easter carnival. I was referring to Tuesday night div1 youth league. I admit I have in the past been a volatile coach, I have received tech fouls, some justified some not. I have made inappropriate comments to refs and had refs make inappropriate comments to me.
I have faced tribunal, I have been criticised on this forum, I have referees that refuse to speak to me. I am okay with all that I have made my peace.
I have also made official complaints about referees, I have spoken to court supervisors, referee evaluators I have offered to share game film to help show my point of view.
I have never once in all my communication ever received feedback on what has been passed onto the referees, I have never received any response to an official complaint. This has lead me to believe the referees are protected for fear of loosing refs.
I ask again, is there a step I have missed in this process??

Reply #413403 | Report this post


irony is a bitch  
Years ago

I love the irony of the OP taking about accountability while posting anonymously.

Reply #413409 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

If you provided feedback and used the appropriate method of reporting worthwhile incidents (not trivial rubbish) then yes, you've done your job and are missing nothing.

If a problem happens again just report it again. While most incidents that are reported and found to be substantiated do impact behavior through training there is such a thing as a "repeat offender" and no amount of "burning of the witch" will stop that.

Reply #413412 | Report this post


Unanon  
Years ago

In Melbourne all results of tribunals are posted on the wall at stadiums at the different clubs

Reply #413426 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

All the anonymous referee has done for mine is confirm a complete lack of accountability. And by attacking others (rather than the issue) why referees are considered above-the-law and lacking in respect.

Reply #413429 | Report this post


The Situation  
Years ago

Exactly.

Reply #413433 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

403
sounds like you were a sturt coach when this was happening that could not handle losing? Infectious problem there that still exists. Glad you have seen the light,like many of us.

Reply #413434 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

#434,

Sounds like you are a referee that thinks you are bigger than the game and that the game is about the refs and not actually the players.

Reply #413435 | Report this post


Ref  
Years ago

Anon, I am a Ref and I hear this a lot with some people saying the Umpires think they are bigger than the game.

It upsets me because it couldn't be further from the truth for myself - I love the game and ref to service the game as well as I can and to enjoy the sport

I have played/coached & Refereed the game and many or most of my partners are in the same boat

There are certainly some Refs, perhaps plenty who say deal badly with coaches & players which can give the impression they are upstarts

I would say more than likely though the same could be said about many players & coaches who are full of themselves and also think the game is all about them.

You only have to look at how Homicide acted during nbl playoffs a few years ago to see that he thought the series was all about him instead of remembering this is a TEAM game

I agree that there is a concerning gap between refs & coaches

In regards to accountability for umpires, it could be better, much better
It seems that on the occasion that refs are made accountable the powers to be go over the top & pick on some but not all depending on who they like most

Reply #413440 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

As a Coach who's NEVER been a ref and lets just say Coached at a very high level i can honestly say the divide between Coaches/Players and officials is caused mainly by us coaches....

Yep, i said it, Sad to say it but we only have ourselves to blame.

The sooner clubs employ smart DOC's who demand their coaches and players to forget the refs and focus on coaching/playing and improving their skills the better.

I see too much rude grandstanding from Coaches, Some Coaches carry on like they need NBL officials on their U14 C grade game.

In reality the officiating std should mirror the std of the game/level.
If your players cant make a layup or have a busted shooting style the last thing you should be worried about is a missed foul or travel.

I wouldnt be a ref for all the money in the world.

Reply #413546 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Your first paragraph gives you away. You are definitely a referee pretending to be a coach.

Reply #413589 | Report this post




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