Isaac
Years ago

NBLPA threatens legal action against Crocs' owner

The NBL players union has threatened the Townsville Crocodiles with legal action if the club doesn't honour its contracts.

The move - which is backed by the club's players - is set to place further strain on Barrier Reef Basketball Pty Ltd, which last week announced it was handing in its NBL licence amid losses totalling $2.5 million.
Mr Colbran said Basketball Australia and the union were trying to make the company trade insolvent.

"We've given everything the last 20 years to players and it's come to this, and the players are in this position partly because of poor performance," he said.

"If we trade insolvent, we are in breach of the law. The only way we can pay out debts is if I lend money, which is what's happening."
Full story

Not too keen on this course of action, timing and publicity. A guy/group has lost money year after year supporting the charity that is the Townsville Crocs and now the NBLPA (representing Crocs players) are threatening action? And right when the club is trying to get back on its feet?

If you want more than two weeks notice, look at the reports of losing money over the years and your win-loss record. If you want to improve job security, work harder in games, with community appearances, do endless free media work, etc. If I want my business to stay afloat, I have to put in extra hours.

This is like a group of homeless people attacking a soup van because the volunteer drivers can't keep financing the operation.

Our league needs all components from fans, players, refs, administrators and definitely owners. I really feel for owners who lose money year after year while being shown little respect. They could well point those charitable efforts to more deserving recipients who have a more desperate need for aid.

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The Situation  
Years ago

I think the players are entitled to seek further advice on having their contracts honoured as it appears that the previous owners didn't quite fulfill their obligations contractually and legally, but running to the media to threaten legal action is just terribly short-sighted at this point in time.

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Jake  
Years ago

Pretty average way to go about it if truth. I don't think it will be well received by the people that have lost money.

The timing of this is very poor and the person responsible should really be hung out to dry.

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Isaac  
Years ago

Situation, I think that would be more than fair if the club were financial and carrying on. But this is a situation where, essentially, the business has been failing for years.

I would hope, however, that players can be paid to the completion of their 2012/13 contracts.

Was anyone but Norton under contract for the following year? Blanchfield?

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Bear  
Years ago

Not quite the publicity we are looking for...

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Yea not good by the NBLPA, i most of the time sit on the side of the owners aswell, they havnt screwed anyone, everyone got there 2 weeks notice.

The owners dont need the NBL or the players they could all walk away and probably instantly increase there personal wealth as they are no longer pumping money into a NBL club. The league and players need to realise this. Its the players and Basketball in Australia that loses if the owners walk away more than the owner, especially financially.

Maybe if players took less to play and were not sucking clubs dry then this kind of thing wouldnt happen, clubs are losing 100s of thousands a year and players still want pay rises, etc each year and most dont seem to take less or do extra to help the club make money and hence increase there security, it doesnt sound to me as if the Crocs have done too much wrong, just decided they dont want to lose more than the 2 mil they already have, which is fair enough, how can you demand someone lose more money, when they have invested so much, go little return and basically kept these same players in a job, its a bit like biting the hand that feeds you to me.

think about it if every Crocs player took 10%-20% less, the club would save 100-200k a year, significantly reduce/eliminate the losses the players have shown commitment and the club might be more inclined to stay alive and the league would be in a stronger position imo, and that basically goes for all clubs, even if it means some of the end of bench guys become semi-pro. hard to side with the players on this one for me. The PA wont like it but i think the cap needs to reduce by atleast 20%, if players want a league and job security, they cant keep sucking clubs dry, cant have it both ways.

playing pro sports is a priviledge imo, many people would love these guys jobs and there are heaps playing SEABL/ABA who would love a crack and be happy to take the money these guys get less say 20%. There would be players also around the world who would play NBL for less than an Aussie whom they are better at, ie i bet Hurdle and Henry were bottom half earners at there clubs whilst being one of there better players, so Aussie players need to be careful with there salary demands, the NBL could simply open up another import spot or 2 and we could replace some of them with better imports for cheaper, again players cant have it both ways.

Sorry about the rant, greed just frustrates me and this seems a bit greedy and ungreatful on the players behalf.

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The Situation  
Years ago

I think you're playing a dangerous game if you are putting the responsibility of the clubs financials on the shoulders of the players. I understand that losing means less money but the players dont control every aspect of the club.

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Isaac  
Years ago

The Crocs players contracted beyond this year, according to And The Foul, are:

Holmes, PC, Norton, Blanchfield
I don't remember public action threatened against Gold Coast, though there were some disgruntled players from memory? Harvey and Hoare maybe?

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Anonymous  
Years ago

The Crocs owners treated it as a business. They made money out of it as a business. Therefore they are bound by the rules and regulations of the industry they are involved in. Insinuating 'the players should be grateful' mantra is simply, (pardon the pun)- a 'Croc' of shit!
The players have mortgages, bills etc. like anybody else. Just because they play NBL does not mean they get any special privileges in this regard.
You can't take your bat and ball and go home simply because you don't currently like the state of play.
Fulfill your legal obligations and then disappear on to your tropical island with the money you made in the good years.

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Jackie C  
Years ago

There is money to be made owning an NBL club?
Hahahaha
Dear Anonymous, have you noticed how many clubs have gone to the wall since this league started? About triple the number than are even in it.
Yeah, I'm sure those Crocs owners made a fortune "in the good years".
Just when were those years exactly?

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Anonymous  
Years ago

The Crocs franchise were once the model that everybody aspired to. They were rightfully proud of that and they themselves professed they were 'how it should be done' as they were one of the few teams that were profitable.
Quite common knowledge actually.

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Venom  
Years ago

Agreed Situation - the financial losses are not the responsibility of the players. But the private owners Barrier Reef Basketball have said they have no money left and have incurred debts they can't pay/off sustain. They are 1 step away from declaring bankruptcy which then makes a mockery of BA and the NBLPA. BRB has offered the license etc for free to the new administration - if it goes to bankruptcy thats all gone.

NBLPA were better off waiting to see if the Save the Crocs campaign was viable and going to get the green light - if not, sue your guts out for what you can get the players. Otherwise you just poisoned the very people who are trying to keep you employed.

Absolutely bloody STUPID !!

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Anonymous  
Years ago

The players are employees.

They are entitled to their wages that they were contracted to receive just like the rest of us.

I don't feel the same sympathy for owners.

Anyone who buys a NBL franchise should have a pretty good idea that history dictates you will make a loss.

Most are wealthy enough from their non-bball earnings that they make the choice to buy a bball team and lose any losses for tax benefits.

If I made $10 million a year from non-bball earnings and was prepared to lose $1 million a year owning the Townsville Crocodiles then I understand both the legal and moral obligation to satisfy all contracts in full. It is true that my team is making a loss and is dependent on my 'loans' but that was always the case and always the commercial reality of the ownership.

Of course i have the right to call it quits but honouring the contracts in full for services performed is the legal obligation.

Isaac, normally i would support your "give them time approach". However, didn't Basketball Australia say they were rejecting Townsville's return of its licence until it can prove it is insolvent/bankrupt.

If so, maybe the player's have heard that Townsville's ownership is taking steps to be declared bankrupt and if they wait any longer they may lose any chance they might have to receive their outstanding pay?

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Yes the players are not responsible for running the business, but the players salaries would be by far the largest expense and also in a way the easiest to reduce if required.

As far as NBL clubs being profitable, i doubt it for anyone, yes some seasons some may turn a profit, but i doubt overall if anyone has ever come close to a profit from there investment in a NBL club, if they have well done to them, they must have bought in around the boom time and got out not long after, even then i doubt anyone managed to do this.

The only people who do make decent money out of a NBL club are the players/coaches, etc.

Think about it how much has say any player made from the Crocs? Compare that to the owners 2 mil loss then see who made the money out of it, no matter what the player is paid he earns more than a 2 mil loss, these owners may be wealthy but also have families to feed, etc like the players, if the players/coaches want more security/money well as isaac said put more in to promotions, making the game product better, ie helping a club make more without costing it more, players earning less is also a easy way to reduce costs and make clubs more viable and in turn make the jobs more secure, players need to realise this and be willing to give a little not just take all the time, some may do, but all need to, especially the ones who complain.

Think about it like this if you were running a business of any kind and losing money, personally putting your own money from other sources in and doing countless amounts of overtime while drawing no extra out to keep the business alive and your staff of any kind came to you and said i need more money/greater job security how would you feel? Would you think the staff member is being ungrateful and a bit rich? Especially if that staff member isnt doing more than the minimum they have to do.

If owners were really making millions per year out of the NBL and players were not getting paid more than they are, i would be on there side, but not when every club is struggling, many going broke, or very close to each year, owners also have personal lives and expenses just like the players, the owners dont have to sacrifice anything for them, but i would guess many would, even if you are rich enough to not worry about the loss, you still have the choice to buy a Ferrari or invest in a NBL club, or simply keep the spare cash, they dont need the NBL or the players, there personal wealth would likely be better without them, so lets be greatful for every cent anyone poors into a NBL club.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Also out of the 2 mil in losses how much would have gone into players pockets? my guess is a fair chunk, so id say the players have got there share, yes contracts should be honoured, but doesnt 2 weeks payout do this? many contracts have a 2 week notice period, so not exactly sure what the Crocs have done wrong? Especially when they have NO money, its not like the owners are walking away with some cash ripping people off, they have already lost heaps, alot more than the players.

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FYI  
Years ago

Some very good points anons

Crocs could also redeploy their staff as they see fit.

They can retrench them and pay them benefits owed

They can wind up the business and the players get nothing.

Considering there are lawyers involved in the crocs ownership i am pretty sure they knew exactly what they were doing and are doing currently.

There are so many loop holes for them to use if they wanted to play games but they came clean and gave the 4 contracted players a head start in the free agency game

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Exactly, if the players hadnt been paid for part of the season id be on there side, they have been paid for every game played, they are not exactly working at the moment in most cases, so nothing stopping them approaching other clubs for next season or getting another job of any kind, could play SEABL a European league if good enough, i was dirty on the Firepower kings owners back in the day when they owed players lots of money and didnt even pay them for the whole season, but the Crocs ownership have done fairly well and been quite fair imo.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

The issue is the owners have violated the terms of the licence agreement. It's not hard, play by the rules and nobody gets hurt. That's why the rules are there. Of course they have the right to wind it up but they didn't do it by the book. Why? Ignorance? I doubt that.
They may claim they are bankrupt but until they can prove it, the NBL and players have every right to consider they are still active.
By reports they needed to give 9 months notice they were folding under the licensing agreement. They would have clearly known 9 months ago the ship was still taking on water and not going to get better. Why did they not declare then this was their last year?

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Isaac  
Years ago

Most are wealthy enough from their non-bball earnings that they make the choice to buy a bball team and lose any losses for tax benefits.
There was a legal case recently (involved ATO and a part-owner of the Hawks) where an owner wasn't able to claim losses beneficially for tax. There's a thread on here somewhere about it and a couple of lawyers/accountants chimed in.

Profits 5-6 years in the past are pretty distant. If running an NBL club was so awesome, the players could start up their own team or bankroll the new club. It's a huge risk though, so I assume they won't.

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alexkrad  
Years ago

Not the best time to be playing with your ego Holmes.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

It was fine for the owners to pocket the profits in the past but as soon as the players ark up about their contracts (that the owners signed them to) thats not okay.

Bullshit.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Isaac, seriously? Players run the club?

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Anonymous  
Years ago

From the Townsville Bulletin:
'Over the past six years, Mr Colbran watched as he saw $1.5 million in profits turn into $2.5m of debt, and he decided he could no longer plug the gap with hundreds of thousands of dollars out of his own bank account'.

1.5 mil in profit! Nooooooo, there's no money to be made out of owning a bball team. The fact they have managed to screw it up since then is who's fault??

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Guaranteed that if they have declared a $1.5million profit over those years they made far more than that.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

^^ Agreed!

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Isaac  
Years ago

1.5 mil in profit! Nooooooo, there's no money to be made out of owning a bball team. The fact they have managed to screw it up since then is who's fault??
Waiting for any players to step up and take ownership of an NBL club, given generating a profit is such a cakewalk...

---

Ideally, BRB pays players for the remainder of the current season if that's possible. Then the new Crocs organisation honours 2013/14 contracts, but signed fresh with the new entity.

Or BRB just drops everything as happens with other businesses going under.

Either way, making it all very public just seems so awkward when the focus is on locals trying to keep the team alive at all.

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PeterJohn  
Years ago

The NBLPA's statement (http://nblpa.com.au/)refers to itself as the "NBLA" - they really are P'd off

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Anonymous  
Years ago

That was $1.5mill in profit over how many years? 15? That's hardly megabucks for what they were expending.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Isaac, you are normally very sensible with your comments and reasoning but surely you can see that idea as in the realms of fantasy for the NBL.
Nobody said it was easy, but if you choose to do it then do it properly by the governance of the rules. That's all the NBL and players Association are asking for.

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PlaymakerMo  
Years ago

Some good points made, however, keep in mind the reasons for the Croc's demise and how the franchise moves forward are two separate (interlinked) issues.

Regarding 13-14 contracts: is there a way these contracts can be 'traded' or 'amnestied' like in the NBA?

I would imagine that in the scenario of the Croc's successfully dissolving Norton and Blanchfield could be picked up by just about any team with their reasonable player points rating and (likely) salary demands. With a surplus of free agents, Crawford would almost certainly be picked up for less than his contract owing for next season - no longer being the 'franchise player'.

Knowing Holmes he may decide to retire, go live on the moon with aliens to debate first-year law.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Ummmm......Six years. They managed to turn a 1.5 mil profit into a 2.5 mil loss in a 6 year period. According to them of course, which is yet to be proven.....hence why the NBL are asking questions and won't accept the licence back.

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PlaymakerMo  
Years ago

i.e. these players would be signed anyway, so could the Crocs negotiate these contracts with other clubs - with the player's consent regarding where and for how much?

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ANON  
Years ago

As I understand the contracts are now null and void so when free agency is declared they, like anyone else will be free to move to other clubs. Norton and Blanchfield would obviously like to stay in Townsville as they are North Queensland boys. I would expect any new entity would already have assured them they would honour their existing contracts with the Crocs. It would be pretty silly not to as they are the future.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

1.5 mill in profit was built up over a lot of years, 2.5 accumulated over six, dont pretend they had a money tree.

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sixtiesrockstar  
Years ago

All the comments bagging club owners are ignorant. There is no money to be made owning a basketball club. And even if a club makes a profit, where does it go? Straight back into the club or to better players. But if they don't lose too much they will keep digging into their own pockets. You keep harping on about the players. The club owners take all the risks and how many more people do they employ in a club? How many do they employ who's job it is just to look after players. These players are a bit precious. Maybe when they are retired and have to step into the real world of working for money they would be more grateful. At least when it goes pear shaped players can just walk away and get another gig playing for someone else. Supporters get shitty when asked to buy a ticket for a couple of hundred dollars when a team is not performing. Imagine having to pay for everyone else.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

For the uninformed, what's the structure of the NBLPA? There's a lot being thrown around about Holmes, but it surely isn't a one man association? And it's clearly too late for the Blaze guys, but maybe they learnt from that and are trying to be proactive since they let it slide a lot last time?
I'd have also thought that being so close to retiring, Holmes would be pretty keen to stay in Townsville and play since he may not get another gig? Not trying to be devils advocate either, but it seems like if you treat it like any other business, legal action is not the craziest threat (although totally agree that timing and tone are terrible).

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Amen sixtiesrockstar, my thoughts exactly.

As i said even the lowest paid Crocs player has made more than the owners have, over the last few years, so have nothing to complain about, especially those earning the top dollars.

Then people bag owners for not being willing to lose more than 2 mil, wow, if only i had 2 mil to start with let alone be able to lose it. I know its shared between a group but still would be likely a few hundred thousand each, which yet again is more than i have let alone what i could lose on a basketball club, which is essentially a hobby not a necessity for the life of the owner.

Maybe if all of us fans and players did more to support the owners and were real with what the club can afford and do no club would be in this position, not just expect people to lose 100s of thousands of dollars just so we can enjoy a league when many fans dont even buy tickets for the game but criticize an owner who loses a thousand times more.

I personally think they should drop the salary cap to 750k, extend the season by 5 or 6 games, keep the ticket prices similar per game.

Then maybe with a saving of 250k on the salary cap and say 3 home games of say a 4000 crowd at an average cost of $20 making the club an extra 240k, sure there are other costs eg hire of stadium, game night staff, etc but even if they walked away with 50k of that as profit each club would be around 300k better off. Thats a significant reduction in losses, could make some clubs profitable even. This would also even the playing field a little as the Hawks and Taipans are already only spending around this, so would no longer be at an advantage.

Yes the players would have to earn less, yes we may lose a guy like Cedric Jackson, but i dont think we would lose too many Aussies, we may lose some to other jobs and careers, but i also dont think it would be that many. For example say Gibsons wage drops from 150k to 100k, sure he could go to Europe, but i reckon if the big bucks were available he would already be there like most of the other boomers, and what other job could he make significantly more than 100k doing? not saying he doesnt have other strings to his bow ie qualifications, etc, he may well have, but its not that easy to earn more than 100k in most careers. If a couple of guys like Gibson go to Europe, so be it, atleast we will still have a fairly strong league and it will be potentially a lot more stable and viable. If depth of talent becomes an issue because we do lose our top Aussies allow teams to have a 3rd import, has been shown you can sign decent imports who can have a pretty good impact on there team ie Henry in the 40-80k range, would the 36ers have been significantly worse if we replaced Gibson, Cadee, Christopherson, Crosswell with Henry, Hurdle, Massingale, Daly, i personally think it could have been an upgrade and been much cheaper, probably could have got the 4 of them for around the same or less as we are likely paying Gibson and Cadee. Even more reason players need to pull there head in a bit and be real with salary demands, especially if imports who are better are willing to play for less than our Aussies a massive chip on the side of the league that the players need to think about it, again they need the league/owners more than they need the players. There is still good money to be made for the top Aussie players in the NBL. Not saying we should replace Aussies with imports, if possible dont do this, but NBLPA shouldnt be threatening owners with anything, they could seriously shoot themselves in the foot. If this was another GC v Joyce scenario or firepower kings scenario then yes the owners were in the wrong, but generally the owners do good things for the league and we should all be soo great-full.

It may also mean 9th and 10th men become part timers, but again so be it.

You could structure the salaries like this

1. 120k
2. 100k
3. 95k
4. 85k
5. 80k
6. 75k
7. 70k
8. 65k
9. 35k
10. 25k

Total 750k

That would be pretty fair to me, all top 8 guys are on a good wage and 9th and 10th would be part time and have a reduced training load, give these spots to locals, ie in the 36ers case im sure Daly and Warbout or Pero would have been happy to fill them and wouldnt have negatively impacted the roster.

In all NBLPA pull your heads in, be greatfull for the owners and the combined millions of dollars they pay you, all at there own risk, for essentially is just a hobby/entertainment, they could entertain themselves for much less if they wanted to, so lets not bite the hand that feeds us.

I hope this Crocs scenario is a big wake up call to all involved in the NBL, they make some changes, reduce the cap, and make it so the worst team financially is viable and grow it from there. The players are still being paid very well for 6 months work.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

In relatively simple terms, I have a Question?

You are offered a job to move interstate, on lets say....a 3 year contract. Your employer has sold you on the move, of course the hefty pay rise plays a huge role.

So off you go, wife, 2 kids, a dog or cat :), pack your bags and move. You decide to sign a lease for 3 years as you received a much discounted rate because of a longer term. (3 years of course is your contract length) (lets not also forgot some people would purchase a home)

After 1 year there is some turmoil in the company and things are on shaky ground. The business owner that hired you decides he wants out immediately without a relative fight. He shuts up shop and lets employees know he will not honor future contracts.

What do you do?

The way I see it, the NBLPA is not handling this with the delicacy of the situation, that I agree with.

But all the people on here saying its a privilege to play basketball/pro sport, give back to the club blah blah blah. Such an old school mentality which doesn't equate in todays age. The NBL is a business, just like your local builder, your local grocer, your local mechanic. If you have contacts you must honor them, OR, try to do anything in your power to come to a settlement.

NBL players have mortgages, a wife and kids, car payments and bills much like those of a builder, mechanic and pretty much every other other worker in the world. Why should they let this slide and be the scapegoat for the ''good'' of the league.

Last thing, clubs can fix their books easily. When they were making profit I would be close to certain they underquoted that profit, when they take loses, I'd be close to certain they magnify their loses, Business 101 gents.

My two cents.....

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Anonymous  
Years ago

^^Amen!

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FYI  
Years ago

so you pack your family and move to Roxby Downs because BHP are going to build the worlds biggest mine and the money will be flowing like the Salmon of the Capistrano

BHP doesn't go ahead because the mine is uncommercial at this time and the job you thought you had now doesn't exist

If you have been employed less than 12 months you are only legally entitled to 2 weeks notice.

And if you are buying property and taking on the risk of a mortgage on the back of 2 or 3 year deal then you are just plain stupid.


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Anonymous  
Years ago

So did you do your own due diligence into the viability of the company you are signing with and their financial returns over the last few years.

Did you ask any questions at interview regarding their long term future or plans to strengthen their position in the marketplace.

It is all an unfortunate situation for owners and players. Things could definitely have been handled better (as almost always when humans are involved) but the players are trying to get blood out of a stone on this one.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

You really think if you ask an NBL team their long term vision, they would say hmmmm we are just hoping to get through this year then not honor contracts and walk away, just don't tell anyone.

So FYI. By your thinking no NBL player should purchase a home in their respective playing cities? Cool job.

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FYI  
Years ago

indeed i am saying that.

lets say you buy a property for $400,000.

You will pay around 5% in stamp duty so that is $20,000 in tax paid.

When you move you will pay an agent at least 2.5% to sell the house so that is another $10,000

That is close to $300 per week in costs over 2 years.

you will need the property to go up in value by at least 10% within 24 months to recoup your money.

I havent even touched on mortgage payments, insurance, rates , maintenance and so on.

So yeah if you buy a property on the back of a 2 or 3 year deal you are stupid.

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Isaac  
Years ago

You decide to sign a lease for 3 years as you received a much discounted rate because of a longer term. (3 years of course is your contract length)
Sounds risky. Didn't realise people signed 36 month residential leases? Even my commercial lease is only 2+2+etc. Further, there are easy options to break leases, including finding options for replacement tenants. If you buy property away from wherever you choose to settle, that's a personal choice and risk. Could rent it out even if you don't live there.
After 1 year there is some turmoil in the company and things are on shaky ground. The business owner that hired you decides he wants out immediately without a relative fight.
Do you mean "after six years?" Or after fighting for 3-5 years?
The NBL is a business, just like your local builder, your local grocer, your local mechanic. If you have contacts you must honor them, OR, try to do anything in your power to come to a settlement.
Or you go under and people lose their jobs. As unfortunately also happens in the real world when businesses are failing, regardless of whether they have been profitable in the past.

Not fussed about players going for the remainder of this season's contract if that wasn't paid out. I think that would be a fair gesture from BRB. Remaining years may well be covered by the new Crocs. Or if you really feel slighted, pursue it with a bit more finesse.

Recent NBLPA media coverage (which doesn't happen without NBLPA providing/initiating material) -

- as the NBL enters finals mode and every ounce of media attention needs to be on these games, NBLPA starts up with calls for caps to be upped or scrapped, season timing changes to be considered, etc. All the "calls for change" material the media loves wrecking the NBL with. Not provided privately to the NBL, but with the media to maximise impact/pressure.
- remembering the finals, NBLPA tweets about their keen interest in the Perth-Melbourne series; oops, sorry Wollongong.
- a week or so after the NBLPA calls for the salary cap to be pushed up, a club falls over because it has failed to make a profit year after year.
- as the Crocs salvage crew build solid momentum towards saving the club, NBLPA and union partners start "threatening legal action" against the outgoing ownership group.

I don't want anyone to think I am anti-union. I think the rights of employers and employees are an absolute balancing act and every supporting group has a role to play in trying to keep situations fair. But the greater good is important here too - the future success of the entire league and a club itself. The NBLPA appears to be clomping around with blinkers on.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Valid points Isaac, but you keep ignoring the fact the Crocs ownership went about it the wrong way. Notification was required as per the licensing conditions and they didn't do it. I'm sure if they gave 9 months notice, whilst the players would have been disappointed, it would have given them plenty of time to organise their lives. The owners knew back then they weren't going to continue if losses over the years were indeed the issue.

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FYI  
Years ago

Anon

If you are broke you dont need 9 months to notify anyone of anything.

BA cant force the owners to trade insolvent, they cant force them to put a team on the floor, they cant force them to do anything.

The NBL relies on philanthropy to exist. The NBLPA should be doing something about that rather than chasing people that have pumped millions into the sport in this country



Reply #414193 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

The 9 months is fairytale stuff. In the real world it can only apply to someone who wants to get out of the NBL while everything is still going reasonably well with the business.

When things are going badly owners who want to be in the NBL are looking for anything to keep afloat - new equity partners, new sponsorship, a best-case-scenario with crowd numbers putting money into the organisation to break even. It may just be plain old denial on the part of an owner who after losing money for 6 years straight thinks this is the year they will break even.

I agree they should probably dig into their pockets to honour contracts for 2012/13 year, but in my opinion they are entitled to pull the plug as insolvent after so many years of losses.

Reply #414196 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

So why didn't they appeal for help to transition to a commumity model then? They have walked away at the last moment giving very little time for a community model to take shape. They obviously knew they were going to fold way before it was announced. If they really cared about their product and wanted to see it continue don't you think they would have raised the alarm...oooohhh....lets say, 9 months ago? Smacks of self interest and the attitude of 'if we're not running the show then no one will'.
Absolute bullshit, and then to top it off they have the audacity to put it back on the players for their poor result. There is no philanthropy in this, this was a business, it was run like a business, it's gone under as a business. Fine....but you still endure the rules of being involved in this industry. You didn't follow them, hence you will be penalised....as in any other business!

Reply #414199 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

What shits me is all the apologists banging on about how the owners didn't know this, didn't know that etc then why were they signing guys to multi-year deals last offseason and only just re-signed Mitch Norton to a 3 year deal about a week before this happened?

There is a pretty bad smell about all this and the NBLPA are right to make sure their players get every cent they're entitled to.

Reply #414209 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

The NBLPA are absolutely right to get all the players are entitled to (the admin and office staff are also right to get all they are entitled to). Announcing it all via a press release and media interview is another thing entirely and probably Hinders more than it helps (couldn't help myself, sorry).

Reply #414227 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

Another article about it in a Townsville paper today with Jacob saying they are just exploring the legality of it all on behalf of players/members. Speaking to media again could be considered a misstep as it again keeps a distracting issue in the news. But what is interesting is this second comment added to the article:

What you say Jacob is not true, my phone is always on and you have not called me. Son, stop twisting the facts.

Posted by: George Colbran of Townsville 5:21am today
For those late to the party, Colbran is the Barrier Reef Basketball guy who tried to surrender the Crocs license and is the one the NBLPA are potentially pursuing.

Reply #414343 | Report this post


BJF  
Years ago

Colbran is also the reason for the massive McDonalds sponsorship the club had over a long period of time.

Not the kind of person the Crocs need to lose



Reply #414346 | Report this post


The Situation  
Years ago

And now a "Jacob Holmes" has responded. I'm going to guess that both posts have come from the same person, neither of them are named George or Jacob.

Reply #414357 | Report this post


Nathan of Perth  
Years ago

^^^
You never know, that could just be how they do business in Townsville!

Reply #414358 | Report this post


Nathan of Perth  
Years ago

I know that the idea of a salary cap is to stop clubs blowing themselves up in pursuit of a title, but I've been starting to wonder if they are actually causing MORE trouble for small clubs than they are solving.

When you clamp down with a salary cap you are crimping the earning ability of players, so we have to have a salary floor. But the cap also sets a target that may be wildly inappropriate for smaller clubs, they have to skew their wage budget to spend more on players, less on team staff. Is forcing teams to work to a cap forcing smaller sides to overspend whilst also messing with team balance.

If we're not feeding everyone's revenue into a central pot a'la the NFL, does imposing cookie-cutter financial patterns on wildly differing financial situations make sense at all, even in the vein of creating parity?

Reply #414359 | Report this post


Mick  
Years ago

This is just dumb, dumb, dumb by the NBLPA and Jacob Holmes, and doubly dumb by BA trying to get them to trade themselves into insolvency.

As it stands, with them approaching insolvency but still technically afloat, Barrier Reef Basketball are offering their intellectual property and training facility (at a property which they own) for free to any future community model Crocs team, as well as offering their services in some capacity to help transition the club from private ownership to the new model.

If the NBLPA sues it will in all likilhood force the club to declare insolvency from lawyers' fees, payouts, etc. which will then mean the adminstrators will move in. Once the administrators move in they will have no interest in "Saving The Crocs", they will only have interest in wringing every last cent out of the Crocs' assets to pay off BRB's debts and then of course make a little profit for themselves.

Not ideal. Reaching insolvency is not good. What is good is BRB pulling out before it reaches that cliff, handing back its license, and giving the new team a free training facility and free intellectual property. It also will mean a more hassle free start-up of the "new" franchise, which means the players will start getting their regular salary payments again sooner, if their contracts get renewed.

So no, I don't buy Holmes' bullshit that they are only going after BRB and aren't trying to stomp on "Save Our Crocs", because going after BRB is just giving "Save Our Crocs" several new (massive) hurdles to overcome in their already steeply uphill battle.

Say what you will about BRB, but they actually want the Crocs to continue. From the the way they are acting, the NBLPA and BA do not.

Reply #414371 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

Nathan, not all teams spend to the cap. Wollongong notoriously do not and have a self-imposed budget they stick to. Could be the same in Cairns.

I've posted a few times recently about how the NBL could/should do more to allow underspending teams to stay competitive. I'd really like to see the league focus on this.

Reply #414375 | Report this post


Mick  
Years ago

Townsville came into this season with a payroll somewhere between 700 and 800k, but I'm pretty sure they would have been close to the full cap after re-modelling and bringing in Ervin and Nevill.

Reply #414384 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

So if both the Hawks and possibly the Crocs underspent how do both teams then lose money.
Surely there is no business sense it it at all. WE know the Hawks losses are susidised by a benefactor and cleary the Crocs have been as well.
So why bother resureccting the club if they will lose money? Just saying

Reply #414388 | Report this post


Mick  
Years ago

Townsville lost money because not enough sponsors bought game night advertising, sponsorships or corporate boxes and not enough people came to the games.

Their model was predicated on engaging the same numbers of the above as were on board in the early-to-mid 2000s so they died.

Reply #414391 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Ok. So the numbers have dropped off. Rent will be cheaper and the ticket prices cheaper accordingly, so where is the revenue going to come from to put a successful side on the court without spending the cap.
NO success, no side.

Reply #414414 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

And now a "Jacob Holmes" has responded. I'm going to guess that both posts have come from the same person, neither of them are named George or Jacob.
The Jacob Holmes is definitely an imposter but I'd guess that the George is the actual George.




The Jacob comments are no longer there but Colbran's are.

Reply #414425 | Report this post


John  
Years ago

Can't believe what I read most days! Someone named Paul on another chat forum implied that Norton was behind the legal action! What a crock of s__t. This would only be said by someone who doesn't know the kid or the family or the personal relationship he has with George Colbran and most of the board! Which i am told is tight and Doesn't know the deal he knocked back to play for the crocs if his option year wasn't picked up. The 3 year deal was costing him 20k a year to stay! He stayed because he trusts Pat Reidy and trusted the board. I have walked out to the office the day after the poor handling of an announcement and he was there in the office I am told he has been everyday. My neighbor had a call from him today asking if they are getting session tickets again! While Jacob Holmes is firing the bullets from Adelaide Norton is facing the music with uncertain future!!!!! I would like to know if or who will pick him up if this all turn bad!

Reply #414474 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Whateva that meant

Reply #414486 | Report this post


John  
Years ago

Norton has been pin pointed as the one behind the legal action against the crocs! Can't you read!

Reply #414493 | Report this post


The Situation  
Years ago

"The Jacob Holmes is definitely an imposter but I'd guess that the George is the actual George."

Check their IP's, Isaac.

Reply #414499 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

That could mean anything or nothing. If you want me to respond, I'll need more info. I assume it's not a joke.

Reply #414509 | Report this post


Nathan of Perth  
Years ago

@Isaac '375

Thanks for the reply. Kind of highlights the catch-22 of a salary cap in a financially unequal league. If a club is already unable to pay to the cap, they've already lost parity with the teams who are.

I wonder if a way forward for the league is to implement the O-friendly rules like defensive 3 in the key rule and much stricter interpretations on fouls and then switch the wage rules to what some European sports leagues do where your wage budget is limited to some fraction of your revenue - i.e., you can only spend 25 or 50% of your revenue.

Helps keep wages in control, still provides great financial opportunities for players in Australia to encourage juniors coming through, allows for real excitement machines in the league. Because for attracting new crowds, excitement beats winning. This is something Perth Glory supporters have been trying to tell their moron owners; winning is NOT everything when it comes to be entertained by sports. Nick Marvin himself recognises this, which is, I assume, part of the reason behind the friction between him and Bevo, citing the fact there team has little flamboyance.

To be honest, the single most exciting and entertaining stretch of play I've sat through at Perth Arena this year is when the Tigers put on an alley-oop show and put on a 9-zip streak or something. And we were on the receiving end of that!

The league is predicated on the idea that winning = crowds and support and thus parity = everybody wins, but when you are talking sports entertainment, which is really what a basketball league attempts to sell, that really isn't necessarily the case. Especially when you want to get neutrals putting eyeballs on screens or showing up. Neutrals don't care who is winning, as long as it is exciting and that is part of why our Ten/OneHD ratings have been so bad.

...

Wow, okay, that got a little out of hand. I'm sure I've covered a lot of the same ground on this board before, no less. Oh well.

Reply #414514 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

^^ Great ideas Nathan. Very, very sensible.
Go back to 48 mins and you have easily implemented things to try.

Reply #414858 | Report this post




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