Anonymous
Years ago

Who is Australia's GOAT?

This might be a silly question but who is Australia's greatest basketball player of all time?

Gaze? Bogut? Longley? Maher?

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Mystro  
Years ago

I'd go with Gaze, Bogut would be a close second. Longley has the most credentials but wasn't a star on that Bulls team whilst Bogut is a fringe star with the Warriors.
Gaze was just ridiculously good.

Reply #444059 | Report this post


HO  
Years ago

Jackson, Harrower, Timms, then maybe start talking about the blokes.

Reply #444060 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Gaze NBA averages: 1.7 points, 0.5 rebounds, 0.4 assists
Bogut NBA averages: 12.2 points, 9.2 rebounds, 2.3 assists

In fairness though Gaze wasn't given the chance to shine in the NBA.

Reply #444061 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Gaze NBL averages: 31.2 points, 5.4 assists, 5.1 rebounds, 1.8 steals

Reply #444062 | Report this post


The Situation  
Years ago

Shane Heal. It says so on his website.

Reply #444064 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Maybe compare Bogut's Olympic stats with Gaze's Olympic stats.

Gaze is in the FIBA Hall of Fame......

Reply #444065 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I'd say bogut as more of an impact in the best league and Number one draft pick as well. Think that he is the best Aussie.

Or Kyrie ;)

Or could exum be the best Aussie product???

Reply #444067 | Report this post


kason jidd  
Years ago

Patty Mills

Reply #444068 | Report this post


Mystro  
Years ago

The question was GOAT not who's played the most games or scored the most in the NBA or even seen the most court time.
Kirk Penney played sweet FA in the NBA but there is no way the Sean Marks is better than him just because he played what 12 years in the show?



Reply #444069 | Report this post


hoopie  
Years ago

Gaze right now because of his all-round contribution at all levels and in all competitions.

Bogut maybe in three years time if he stays healthy and represents the Boomers.

Reply #444070 | Report this post


The Situation  
Years ago

Bogut, if he stopped tweeting.

Reply #444071 | Report this post


mb34st  
Years ago

Ian Davies?

Reply #444072 | Report this post


Grovermi$ter  
Years ago

Does it have to be out of those listed?

What about those from well before most of our times?

I am sure there are plenty whom none of us can even think of that were a lot better than those listed above...

Palibinaskas?

Michael Ahmatt?

Werner Linde?

Mike Dancis?

Albert Leslie?

Ken Cole?

Lindsay Gaze?

just to name a few plenty more i am sure....

would have loved to have been alive to witness these guys...

Reply #444075 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

You could put Patty Mills into the same discussion:

NBA

4 years and counting in the NBA
Highest score in NBA by Aussie - 34 points vs Golden State Warriors.

College

*WCC Newcomer of the Year, All-WCC First Team
*MVP Outrigger Hotels Rainbow Classic, Saint Mary's College Tournament champions
*West Coast Conference Player of the Month: December *West Coast Conference Player of the Week: 26 November and 26 December 2007
*In just his fourth NCAA game for Saint Mary's, Mills dominated with 37 points against Oregon - the sixth-best return in the school's history, and best by a first-year player.

Olympics/Boomers

*ESPN All-London Second Five
*Highest scoring average at 2012 London Olympics with an average of 21.2 points per game (ahead of Durant)
*Boomers squad member (youngest at 17 years of age)
*Averaged a team-best 14.2 points, all off the bench, in the six games the Aussies played in Beijing
*20 points in a quarterfinal loss to the United States, with three assists, two steals and zero turnovers in 28 minutes in Beijing


NBL

18.6 points per game, 2.3 rebounds per game and 5 assists per game in first and only season

Reply #444076 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

No I'm not saying that how long you play in the nba is the most important but clearly the person who has more impact in the best league on the world should be regarded as the greatest, surely????

Reply #444078 | Report this post


paul  
Years ago

I'll go with:

1 Gaze
2 Palubinskas
3 Bogut
4 Davies
5 Longley

Others who could be considered for a top 10 could be Heal, Bradtke, Anstey, Bruton, Smyth, Andersen, Borner. You'd imagine guys like Exum, Ingles and Mills will be up there once theyve done their thing too.

As a top two scorer in Olympic and World Championship history I dont think anyone comes close to Drewey.

Reply #444081 | Report this post


El Diablo  
Years ago

Gaze by a country mile.

Never had a real chance to play in the NBA.

One of the greatest scorers in the world of all time.

No one else on the list even comes close to being a top 10 of all time in a particular area (rebounds, assists etc.)

Mind you he was also world class in how bad his defence was.

It didn't matter how athletic or how great the defender was put on him, he would still end up with at least 20-30 every night (even in the Olympics)

Reply #444083 | Report this post


Steven  
Years ago

Gaze and Bogut both deserve mention but for different reasons. Gaze leads the way internationally and Bogut in the NBA.

Reply #444084 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I have been watching Bogut closely over the years and I really appreciate his game. If you look at his stat sheet it won't do near justice to the effect he has on his team. He is one of those players that does all of the 1 percenters that make the difference. Screens, hustle, energy, defensive intimidation etc. He may have one of his worst stat lines this season but i think it will be one of his best seasons (if that makes any sense).

Reply #444089 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Gaze, daylight second then Bogut.

Reply #444091 | Report this post


HO  
Years ago

#444078

Thanks, it is jackson then. I thought all these other clowns were just misogynists, turns out they didn't understand the criteria.

Reply #444093 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Only a misandrist HO would think the WNBA was the best league in the world!

Reply #444094 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I would take bogut over Jackson because he is playing the most elite level of basketball on this planet! Jackson isn't that simple.

If I was starting an nba team is definitely take bogut over gaze any day of the week. Bogut is proven in the nba gaze isn't so anything suggested is purely a guess. You cannot say gaze would excel in the nba just because of stats in the nbl. Playing in the nba is against bigger longer athletic players.

Reply #444096 | Report this post


GuessWhosBACK  
Years ago

I think Andrew Vlahov.. Theres nothing on a Basketball court he couldn't do.. a complete player, and a vastly underrated one.

Reply #444097 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

"Bogut is proven in the nba gaze isn't"

Compare them where they have both played, against the USA and best countries in the world. Gaze wins hands down.

Reply #444103 | Report this post


Grant Robertson from Adelaide. Far and away the best. Still playing international ball and dominating

Reply #444110 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

Well, without a clear criteria we are kind of left to our own subjective views are we not?

For me it is who could be the match winner in a game at the highest level he or she can play in...

Therefore for me, it is L. Jackson & A. Bogut.

They are proven match winners in their own right and anyone who tries to compare females with males is slightly retarded in their comparison, you can't distinguish between them because they can't play in the same league!

Reply #444113 | Report this post


Grovermi$ter  
Years ago

don't know how you can compare todays basketballers to generations ago ballers...

world is a lot smaller now than when it was back in the 60/70/80's...

IMO need to pick a player from each 'era'...

which in itself is up for debate...

and do we go off local talent i.e. dominated NBL

or

dominated in overseas domestic competition

or

dominated in International games i.e. olympics/world champs etc.

to many variables imo...

Reply #444116 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Lots of variables but Gaze is clearly the greatest.

Reply #444119 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Andrew Gaze...Next question...

Reply #444148 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Gaze by a mile.

Reply #444151 | Report this post


LC  
Years ago

Seriously, Lauren Jackson is the GOAT Aussie, with Gaze and Bogut to follow.

Jackson has done everything except win Olympic gold. She came up againsg arguably the best generation of US females of all time.

Reply #444157 | Report this post


Statsheet Stuffer  
Years ago

Billy

Reply #444158 | Report this post


Gordon Liddy  
Years ago

I agree it is probably Lauren Jackson.

She won the WNBA MVP award not once, not twice but thrice.

She has 2 WNBA Championships and 1 WNBA Finals MVP.

When some dude from Oz cranks it up to that level and dominates the NBA like she has in the WNBA (or actually wins one of those olympic medals), then there might a debate.

Slightly off topic - I've always thought Sue Bird was fairly hot.

Reply #444161 | Report this post


BigAds  
Years ago

Lauren warrants some discussion when debating Australia's GOAT but has she ever dunked on Cecil Exum? She sits behind Gaze until she does.

Reply #444165 | Report this post


MRT  
Years ago

Lauren Jackson by a country mile. Gaze gets the people's award.

Reply #444166 | Report this post


Ashke  
Years ago

LJ surely has to be in front by a long way? Gaze and co have no doubt achieved great things but i would think LJ has this one easily...

Reply #444171 | Report this post


Pauly B  
Years ago

For me, it's Lauren Jackson. No other player we've produced, male or female has ever been in the discussion for best player on the planet in their generation.

Reply #444173 | Report this post


lel  
Years ago

womens basketball is irrelevant

Reply #444174 | Report this post


mJ  
Years ago

It's gaze or longley u idiots back then in the NBA wasnt looking from Australia as much there were less publicity of nbl on a global scale less oppurtunities. NBA im was looking at home grown talent not until Americans migrates to Australia did the Nba start looking over here. If gaze was in today's game he would be a starter no doubt. He was as good as shooter then anyone in the nba right now!

Reply #444175 | Report this post


Ashke  
Years ago

"womens basketball is irrelevant" hahahahahahahaha, so in other words "i can't actually deny that LJ is no. 1, so i will just be a knob and say something stupid".

Reply #444176 | Report this post


Mike  
Years ago

Original topic was the GOAT but it got me thinking about my overall top 10. In order I'd go with:

1. Lauren Jackson
2. Andrew Gaze
3. Andrew Bogut
4. Luc Longey
5. Patrick Mills
6. Shane Heal
7. Michelle Timms
8. Chris Anstey
9. Mark Bradkte
10. David Andersen

Reply #444198 | Report this post


Mystro  
Years ago

as BigAds mentioned, Jackson has never dunked on anyone from the Exum family so how can she be the GOAT?

Reply #444202 | Report this post


Steven  
Years ago

Lauren Jackson is clearly the best woman to ever represent Australia. Gaze doesn't has much of NBA on his resume but 5 olympics and around 20 years in the nbl make him our GOAT imo.

Reply #444203 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

If you make the pretence that male and female basketball is on level terms then Lauren Jackson is GOAT easily. Sadly the Opals had tough games against men's youth league teams so to put any of their players in the discussion alongside the top male players is out of place.

Reply #444206 | Report this post


hoopie  
Years ago

I like Mike's list, but Lindsay Gaze should take #10 for his outstanding achievements when Australian basketball had it tough. Being selected to a World Champs All-Star 5 and going to 3 Olympics was pretty impressive. And you just have to look at his coaching results afterwards.

From memory, Palubinskas didn't play enough to get into the list, even though he was an amazing shooter.

Reply #444207 | Report this post


paul  
Years ago

Palubinskas played two Olympics and a WC, averaging 21, 25 and 31. He played 23 games and scored more than 20 points on 17 occasions and over 30 five times! Freak.

Reply #444239 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

This is what they reckon is the criteria for the NBA G.O.A.T., just for a bit of a read. Doesn't distinguish between men or women, so I guess WNBA could be included...

The Olympics could also be something we credit more than they do in the USA!

Player must have multiple championships.
Player must have multiple Finals MVPs.
Player must have multiple league MVPs.
Career PER has to be 25 or more.
Career total win shares have to be 200 or more.
Having notable defensive achievements is a plus.
Player must be in the Hall of Fame.

The requirements are strict because role players, who have multiple rings, have to be eliminated quickly. There is no need to bring these guys in the discussion to prove a point. It's stupid so let’s eliminate them quickly from any Greatest of All Time argument.

The numbers eliminate the bias and eye test. Do not come here with the eye test because that’s subjective like hating or loving a song. Save that for NBA League MVP discussions.

Never ever discuss eras. This will get anyone in trouble. Talking about a particular playing time, such as the 1970s or 1990s, is subjective. The debates will go in circles and get rehashed.

Older generations have fond memories of their time while watching the current time for comparison. The newer generations do not have that luxury. Let’s eliminate era talk completely.

Besides, players are not in control of their competition in any era. They’re only in control of the basketball and what they can do with it. That’s it. They play whoever is in front of them. It is not their fault if they are in a weak or strong era.

Determining the skill level of their competition is also subjective. It’s too hard to judge. Basically, discussing different eras is a grey area. Do not go there.

The Player Efficiency Rating (PER) is not the perfect single number advanced statistic, but it is currently the best we have. Observing points, assists, rebounds, steals, blocks, field goal percentage, free throw percentage, and three point percentages is fine.

With that mind, those building block numbers are not enough in this realm. Different positions, such as guard and center, yield different expectations. Efficiency unifies everyone and it’s simpler to observe. The career PER of 25.0 is chosen because many players cannot maintain that average.

Not fulfilling the 25 average does not make or break the player, but it’s a high watermark that further supports a player’s bid for the GOAT title.

The win share metric is about winning. The win share data shows us the better winner because it is an estimate showing how many wins a player contributed.

The metric also incorporates defense and offense. The number 200 is chosen because it’s an extremely high standard that not many obtain over a career. Currently, only 5 players have career total win share over 200.

If the player does not have any rings, league MVPs, and Finals MVPs then they are eliminated.

The NBA GOAT criteria has some holes, but after years of listening to debates, looking at numbers, and observing trends, this is the result. If you think/feel this is stupid then most likely your favorite player did not fulfill the requirements to be the Greatest of All Time.

Reply #444240 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

Taking these criteria into account I would change my selection to be L. Jackson and A. Gaze...

Reply #444242 | Report this post


HO  
Years ago

Mike's list is fine, but if you are sensible enough to consider a female as our #1, which it appears now some are, then you have to reshape that list.

Penny Taylor has to be considered above a number of those males - for longevity in WNBA alone never mind what she did in 2006. Harrower likewise, she has been an international and local league warrior, and had a brilliant (and recognised) international career. Brondello should get a mention considering she was huge in Europe before the WNBA got moving and then also played in the WNBA.

Timms was amazing, but I put Taylor and Harrower above her.

Reply #444247 | Report this post


HO  
Years ago

Paul, Eddie conceded all that +50% at the other end allegedly! Knew less about defence than the Gaze family combined!

Reply #444248 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

How can you say Jackson when she was not playing the most elite competition? Bogut is its that simple. Before his injury he was sitting around top 3 in the league of centres.

Was Gaze even remotely close to being top 3 in his position? No where near.

It's like comparing A league player to Spanish or Italian league player in soccer. There is no comparison.

Reply #444272 | Report this post


HO  
Years ago

Anon, she has played in the most elite competition available to her, and unlike Bogut in his, she dominated it, year on year. And she dominated at WC's and Olympics as well.

Thats why. It's that simple.

Reply #444277 | Report this post


MACDUB  
Years ago

The whole "Gaze shouldn't be GOAT because he played in the NBL" argument is stupid.

Think of Oscar Schmidt..

Reply #444281 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

It's not stupid to say cause gaze played nbl he shouldn't be considered. He didn't play in the elite competition. In fact not even close to the most elite competition. How can he be considered better when there's a player in the best comp in the world who was considered top 3 at his position.

Yes Jackson was one of the best female players in the world but it's a lot tougher to be legit in the the nba than wnba.

Reply #444287 | Report this post


paul  
Years ago

"Anon, she has played in the most elite competition available to her"

As far as I know there is nothing stopping her playing in the NBL or NBA, and if true your statement is wrong.


"It's not stupid to say cause gaze played nbl he shouldn't be considered. He didn't play in the elite competition. In fact not even close to the most elite competition."

Who would win, Team USA or an NBA team? Team USA by a mile. So Gaze has played against the most elite competition and did very well.

Reply #444297 | Report this post


Camel 31  
Years ago

In concurrence LJ, and you'd sure get more than 20,000 watching if she was playen in the NBL.

Reply #444302 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

Seems there is confusion between the GREATEST v the BEST!

Greatest Australian player may not necessarily be our best player on court or the one whom played in the best competition etc...

If we are seeking Australia's best player then we need to look at some variables that can show this, however the greatest player Australia has ever produced, to Australians, may not be the best player rather the one who did many great things for their country!??

Not so easy to nominate someone like Bogut taking into account his injuries and setbacks which stopped him from playing and representing his country, which would have probably put him at the op of the list no matter what Gaze or Jackson did...

But, Jackson and Gaze IMHO sit atop the list purely because we are asking for our own greatest player, the one who did the most for us in every respect, perhaps...

Reply #444332 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I say Gaze, i also rate Sam Mackinnon very highly and think Ingles, who imo was our best player at the last Olympics, will be reasonably high on this list by the time he retires.

Reply #444343 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Have you seen the level of competition the wnba is? Nothing that special especially when compared to the nba. Jackson is clearly the greatest female but she's not even close to bogut.

Sam McKinnon are you serious? Over bogut?

Reply #444375 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Bogut has career averages of a double double shooting over 50% and 2 blocks (while being a very good defender) and is a great passer. This career includes a bad injury on top of that and never being an offensive focal point in the teams he has played on so they're pretty good stats considering.

Reply #444376 | Report this post


Mick  
Years ago

Ben Allen

Reply #444391 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

not saying Mackinnon is better than Bogut or 2nd best, but i put him in the top group of Aussie players, would he be our best sf? since say 2000ish id say yes, were there others before him?

who would peoples top 5 mens players, (1 for each position) be?

and who would be peoples top 5 womens be?

I know basically nothing about womens basketball, have followed mens basketball since the late 90s, my top 5 would be something like

C Bogut
PF Anstey
SF Mackinnon
SG Gaze
PG Heal

Obviously guys like Longley, Bradtke, Andersen, Nielsen, Bruton, Maher, etc are also in the mix and an argument could be made for these guys.

I didnt see enough of guys like Smyth and his generation to judge well enough so havnt put any of those guys in, but would be interested to see what others who are more familiar with this era think if any of these guys should be in.

Im sure guys like Ingles and Mills,etc will be in the mix once they are done, but havnt put them in just yet.

Reply #444397 | Report this post




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