If you don't think season tickets are good value for money then don't buy them.

I think, to some degree, that's what's happening.

Nothing productive can come from that protest.

While it does damage the employer of my brother, I disagree with what you're saying here. If people vote with their wallets, a productive change could well come from that result.

People everywhere are pretty critical. My tactic would be to distract people with so much good news that it overwhelms any negativity. (Read Boti's article about Ben Madgen today for an example.) If you talk to some of the people being criticised, you can easily hear just as much criticism there as you can on this forum.

With 4 Championships the Sixers are the eual most successful team in NBL history!

I think we have a lot to celebrate about basketball in SA.

i dont think its fair to come on this hard-core SA Basketball based forum and ask if we are the most negative in the country.

I dont visit other states basketball sites, so i couldn't really compare.

I would agree there is some negativity, but there is also alot of positive comments, not just Lyn's Notes of appreciation.

Perhaps it is because we are the most knowledgeable and passionate, that we speak out alot.

You are right though, for people

"not ... taking up season tickets this year in protest over the management of Basketball in SA is no true fan."

But some of the reasons outlined in critisms may be behind why these people aren't coming back.

I beleive that people voice their opinions because they are passionate about the team and want success at every level.

The team does a great job on the floor but it is the little things that seem to upset people like the standard of food at the dome.

As mentioned above, if you dont like it dont buy it. If you dont like the food at the dome get drive through on the way or pack some sandwiches.

There is a solution for every problem but i beleive that the people who voice their concerns are doing so because they want the club to be better over all.

I must say after reading the ozhoops forum (sorry for straying Isaac), Melbourne fans think the Tigers are just as poor at recruiting as Adelaide fans think the Sixers are.

Maybe we have some competition for the most negative.

Its pretty well the same on most 'fan forums' that I have been to.
Adelaide United's site has a few people who like to sprout off at every possible moment, after they had a draw in their first trial a few weeks ago it was amazing how many of their supporters wanted the coach and half the team sacked! Id hate to see what happens when they lose!!
Criticism is fine its just when it 100% negative and offers nothing constructive that it can cause problems. Isaac is one of many great examples of why this forum is so well respected - he openly criticises when it is deserved but normally follows such criticism with some contructive ideas and he is not the only one. Lets keep these ideas flowing and try and be constructive rather than destructive and personal in our posts as that just destroys moral and quite frankly gets quite boring!

I think you will find when the season starts most of the criticism will end and well start getting into 'season mode'

Some people start posts critcising just because there is no news around in basketball.

Is that wrong? I don't think so, of course depending on the content.

Anonymous #3920, do you only have eyes for negative comments on this forum? If you read everything, you would find that there is a lot of positive comments as well. Not everyone is negative so don't paint everyone with the same brush. In fact its posts like this that brings unnecessary attention to negativity. I read this forum and what comes to mt mind stronger than anything else is people's passion for the sport. You are not the only "true" fan who has renewed his season ticket, there's thousands just like you.

Power fans are the most negative fans in the country... I was at a game earlier this year and heard an old lady of at least 70 yell to Wanganeen " Get a new job you F&****G C*** " NASTY !!

I wonder how many Port Power forums have been shut down this season ..?

Sorry LIAM ..Power fans do have good reason to be upset.

I would agree that when there is a lack of 'fresh' material out there people tend to dwell on the negative or marginal issues. Like the one who we do not mention, the salary cap, the perceived imbalance in the NBL towards or against certain states and teams.

How many of us have been pissed off with that team owner in QLD who runs the B.A.C Shops(change the letters around) for alleged Cap rorts and good recruiting ? When we see these things we start to look to our own situation in SA and while we feel dudded by the NBL we wish (secretly) our club could pull an "alleged" swifty too ..

Paul Bauer has started something at the 36 ers with his Port Lincoln review and i think Isaac has alluded to an E-newsletter SEVERAL times, so lets push the marketing department for news, views and information.
One of the best short reads i have had this year has been a blog by a guy named Paul Shirley. Shirley is a member of the Phoenix Suns and gives some regular musings of the NBA season that was with quite frank honesty, being a bench warmer he has plenty of time on his hands and gives a good insight into the travel and lifestyle of modern basketballers (NBA).
LETS SEE SOME OF THIS !! Dusty has a website .. he blogs ... it aint hard !! Most professional basketballers can write a few lines if they are given the motivation and an audience. People want to know how many kilo's of Quizno's subs Oscar can eat in one sitting ;)how many plugs for his Trophy business could Paul Rees really get in if he was given the word limit of 300, do the guys have any form of initiation for new players ??(watch out Madgen!!) . IMO people do not want recycled news articles from one source on the team . If you cant embrace your fans how will they embrace you ?

Just my thoughts..

I believe that because the sixers tickets are so expensive you get a different crowd to the games. I believe the sixers crowd are from the high end of town and it is similar to the crows that these people expect a win all the time and they are more worried about leaving at 3/4 time so they can beat the traffic rather than staying and supporting the team.

If the ticket prices were more affordable you will find the game will get a crowd more interested and less negative

Yes, we are the most negative, but probably also the most enthusiastic and most loyal fans and that adds to the negative comments because we're worried about how our team will fare each season! Im sure other teams have the same negative comments coming in aswell from their die hard fans.
"why didnt we recruit......."
"what happend to ........"
"why are season tickets so dear"
its a fact of life!

Sixer fans -- negative or frustrated?

The reality for all Sixer fans is that BASA appears to have a massive and near insoluble conundrum to before it can justifiably 'talk down' and resolve a great many of the general criticisms [however constructively they might be offered or intended] that come from a section of an admittedly core segment of its business, being the Sixer fan base!

Consider this picture:

BASA has declining to static income levels, static to increasing debt, and increasing costs. However, its macro task remains unchanged; how to best manage, develop and administer basketball as a community driven sport and how best to manage and preserve and a range of community based venues, whilst trying to optimise the commercial management and revenues delivered by, with restricted commercial use, of an increasingly tired purpose built venue, and all compounded by trying to successfully nurture, develop, grow, manage [on court and off court] these revenues so that it can field and make competitive two successful national teams, whilst all the time operating under an oversized and outdated governance model??

There is no doubt that Sixers fans are frustrated, sometimes rightly so, however it is often the 'little' things [little only as relative to the bigger issues facing BASA] that set them off. These are generally only symptoms of the greater malaise of the organisation.

The personal criticisms nearly always miss the mark -- no individual is able to fix it just as no individual is responsible for all of it.

I think those people seeking to criticise, with a view to genuinely changing things rather than venting what is often a position of self interest, should begin to contemplate the causes of the 'weaknesses' they perceive why BASA appears to treat them with indifference.

Contemplate this:

Perhaps the SANFL offers the best model of a structure and a scope of tasks eerily similar to basketball, the scale of their business notwithstanding. They manage a sport that works [arguable at some levels perhaps] at grass roots, local clubs and competitions sustained by a venue that performs, local clubs sustained by the performance of 2 national teams etc.

So what do they do differently to basketball?

A couple of key contrasts stand out but the most striking is the governance model they use, chiefly seen as offering:

• Management of the sport overall being vested with an independent commission -- decisions are taken for the best interests of the sport first
• Each of the 'entities' within the sport being independently managed and their 'operational relationships' with the parent body are heavily built around financial and commercial issue, not just political ones [e.g. their national teams operate under a license agreement with the parent body, they hire the venue exclusively as we have all read to the chagrin of SACA, and each year they return a share of their profits to the SANFL]
• Members/season ticket holders being able to appoint nominees for the Boards/committees of the national teams -- and no doubt this sense of ownership empowers the fan to belong and contribute -- something the published Sixer fans are seeking?

Maybe Sixers fans should begin a campaign to have a right to nominate a person or persons to the Sixers Management Committee? Start the change from within.

Through Board/committee membership let the fans nominee[s] actively contribute to ticket pricing discussions, to the cost of the sport, to the service levels and food standard issues and to many other direct commercial issues impacting the sport, and then also accept the responsibility for managing the impact each has or might have on the performance of BASA.

We all agree the fans deserve a voice -- it just needs to be at a level where it can make a sustainable and tangible difference to the future.

(Mod: Great post!)

This is interesting and good to see intelligent conversation.

There are first two problems which have nothing to do with basketball - most people do not know how to convey constructive critisism, and secondly, most people do not know how to accept it.

The first point has been made clear by many regulars on this site and the second also by the before mentioned along with Sixers management.

They ridiculous language that comes from that organisation is beyond belief. The censorship they administer on the official site is immature, embarrasing and effecively nullify the opinions of their most passionate supporters.

Then there are the individuals. I could not belive the responses I got years back for questioning the logic of having Charles Thomas in our team. I don't think it's negative to voice opinion (even if it's wrong and ill-advised as it often is). It lies with the individuals on how they choose to accept it and respond. This is a matter of simple education.

By this logic then - if one cannot expect educated comment from the administration of a sporting franchise, then prehaps we should not be so surprised at the level of critisism and 'negativity' shown in return.

apologies for the 'typos' in my post :{

Winston

Not sure of where you are or were going with your note. I don't get the 'ridiculous language' and 'censorship' thing? Do you have specific examples? I am also uncertain about what you would see as being 'educated comment' from BASA  e.g. on what subject? in response to what?

However, one of the most salient points in your post was the notion of the 'passion' held by man Sixer fans. It just appears to me that often this 'passion'  and no true Club can survive without it  needs to be better directed&from my perspective, as it stands, there is little doubt that a well meaning nitwit is a nitwit nonetheless and I suspect much of the criticism, however valid, is 'lost' on BASA because it often lacks responsibility, and human nature being what it is, it is very easy to dismiss a faceless critic.

So, with apologies to Lenin, what is to be done?

WHY NOT:
Start a petition at home games and on-line to seek changes to the way in which people are appointed to the Sixers Management Committee? Put a season ticket holder/member onto this group. Give the fans a voice  but also the responsibility. Having a position with this group would immediately put a level of responsibility into the criticism aimed at the Club and propose an outcome&and if the 'members' having a formal voice is good enough for the Crows and Power, why not the Sixers?

WHY NOT:
Start a campaign to get more and more people to buy the $15 tickets  I can't agree with Isaac that 'not going' to games when the club is already besieged financially will ever provoke a positive response from BASA or the Sixers  other than a perhaps a quicker slow death. However, what buying $15 tickets will clearly tell BASA is that prices are too high and people are voting with their wallet&and again, if the fans speak then they are also taking responsibility for the outcome&

WHY NOT:
Email the operations people at the Stadium and seek to change the range of foods and the quality&ask to present some options&get BASA to bring the caterer to the table&Make BASA take some responsibility as a venue manager  aim at who is directly responsible for delivering the service&

Examples of 'fan power'; being harnessed to preserve the 'ideal' are ever increasing&look at Manchester United and United FC, a group formed to preserve the values of Man U as a 'business', look at Hawthorn and Melbourne, look at Sturt when it struck financial trouble, look at South Sydney and the NRL. Granted, the stage many of these events is bigger, however it all started when some fans got off their backsides and actively sought to make change happen&

I agree with your points, but wanted to respond particularly to the remark that mentioned me:

I can't agree with Isaac that 'not going' to games when the club is already besieged financially will ever provoke a positive response from BASA or the Sixer

If a club cannot recognise that ticket pricing (as routinely discussed by fans all over town) is an issue due to declining numbers, then how can they expect to respond to that appropriately?

If you're suggesting that BASA would never respond positively to that decline, then I think that's a terrible situation. I'm not so much suggesting that people should do that, but that it is what they're doing -- making that choice when their membership forms arrive, "Gee, on top of our mobile phones, Foxtel, utility bills and saving for a holiday, can we afford $650 this year?"

I didn't include the $15 tickets in my assessment -- obviously people should be buying this more affordable option rather than staying away from games as their sole protest.

But I hope like hell that the club has the sense to introduce zoned seating plans in 2006/07. Their thinking that zoning enables fans to buy cheaper tickets and move to better seats is trumped by the fact that those buying $15 tickets on a game by game basis instead of buying season tickets may do the same thing anyway.

I cant think of any other venue in Australia that doesn't have some sort of zoning!?!!! It's ridiculous not to.

Isaac

You missed my point a little I suspect...

I think the Club/BASA knows that it is asking too much for a ticket - but having 'people' and the 'fans' prove it is an entirely different matter!

$15 seems good buying. Policing seats at the venue might be an issue - but so is the value - e.g. when you buy an economy seat on an aeroplane you don't expect to fly business class - why should attending sport be any different - unless the people/'fans' lack respect for the sport?

People will always complain about prices in the absence of taking responsibility for the/their purchase - in sport, education, at retail and for just about anything - but how much of the revenue model of their sport does the average punter know [or should they know] - so how do they respond or how could they respond to what is really in the best interests of basketball over self interest?

And we both know that BASA making a positive response to a negative comment is highly unlikely - the problems of BASA are nearly always the responsibility of another or something else - and I am sure you of all people would have had some first hand experience at this and must agree...?

Consider their current position - can you think of the last thing that BASA did that was well received and actually generated a positive revenue stream? Can you recall the last positive thing management put forward that was not offered defensively?

NO - the organisation is generally in full retreat, and like Napoleon, until now, they have nearly always picked the wrong spot for their Waterloo!!!

They need help. As in just like the pilot, they don't need "fokker friendship", they need help!

Another statistical factor is that 'real' attendance at matches has gone backward for quite a while - since we went to a summer season in fact some 6 seasons ago - and price is surely only 1 dimension of the 'marketing' decision of the fan. And, BASA actually counting people who attended games rather than those who 'should be there' also makes a difference!

To your last point, I thought zoned seating was or is being introduced this season? - we miss a bit up here in Sydney but not that much?

If zoned seating is in play then I thought that people buying the cheaper option was the best bet? - maybe not?

Again, I suggest fans actively address the need for and consequences of change, and then set about getting it done...

It's easier to reply to this backwards.

Zoned seating was considered, but canned towards the end of the process for the reason I previously mentioned. With zoned seating, people sell themselves. Are you the $75 fan who wants VIP car-parking and courtside seating? Are you the $25 type who wants to be nearish the court? Or are you the $10 uni student who wants to attend but just spent everything on text books and is happy to have a back-row seat for a budget price?

The first concern of the club shouldn't be "but people will buy $10 tickets and move into the $25 seats". It should be "let's fill the Dome and make sure those in the corporate suites see that their sponsorship money is well spent". Once the place is full, the $10 people won't be able to move closer anyway.

Your points about the organisation being in retreat are, in my opinion, absolutely spot on. I would imagine that morale is impacted.

What staff in there should realise is that fans are not entirely brutal and stupid -- they are aware of financial restrictions, and they will respect good ideas being tried even if they fall short, or effort being made.

Some of the game night ideas being implemented, for example, might stumble - I don't know - but those people involved (Jane, Teresa, Potsie, Rachel, Ben, Bonz and myself) are giving it a serious shot and I think the game presentation is going to be seriously improved this season.

Basketball isn't an issue of charity. It's a commercial venture. It's entertainment. The sheer truth is that season ticket numbers are down and I would name the top three issues that have led to this as:

1. Poor rapport with fans - no publicity, some silly decisions, etc.
2. Pricing - too expensive in the current market, no zoning.
3. Marketing - having no budget is not an excuse unless you're uninventive or defeatist.

Now, my original point was "If people vote with their wallets, a productive change could well come from that result." I stand by that. The parent post suggested that nothing productive could come of that protest, but if people show their dissatisfaction by not buying tickets, the club can either die a gradual death, or pay some attention to what's caused the decline (despite what key personnel in the past may have thought, the main problems aren't the performance of the team or Boti being critical of the club or Charles Thomas, for example).

People have voted with their wallets in that 300+ people have made the decision not to renew their STs this year. In the majority of cases, this would be as a direct result of the three issues just mentioned. People would be thinking "It's getting a bit stale, the club doesn't seem to be trying, plus it's pretty expensive, and they didn't respond to my email the other week." You could get away with $25 tickets if your rapport and marketing were top notch. Or you could fill the stadium despite crap PR if your prices were low.

I don't know if policing seats is a major issue either. I'd rather that everyone at the game moves down to fill the lower parts and improve the atmosphere anyway. How many people would've thought last year, "The atmosphere used to be far better than this!" -- more volume, more people around you, fewer gaps, etc - that creates a more positive environment that you enjoy more.

One reason I think that assistance to the club may be limited is that you have to give the impression that you're really trying as an organisation, otherwise people won't think that the club deserves any help. I think that the perception outside has simply been that the effort and ideas just haven't been good enough.

As you've said, they need help, but they need to help themselves first. Or they need to identify weakpoints in their arsenal, and fill them (internally or with the right contractors and volunteers). You can either read criticism and crawl up into a ball, or you can get on the front foot and try harder. I remember reading anonymous criticism of my first ever freelance job - I was in shock for a while, but then realised where I could improve.

There should be an evangelist within the organisation that publicly responds to concerns as they arise (see Paul Bauer's reply in a topic about the pre-season game as an example -- that's a start).

I know this sounds like incessant doom and gloom, but I believe that the nadir passed about a month or so ago and things will improve from here -- Bauer will have a very positive impact, some fresh meat up the top of the club could be interesting, and if they get someone like Paul Bell in there too, I'd recommend finding some way to invest in the club.

Given that I've been pretty critical, I would like to make it clear that I do try to help when I can. Obviously I run Hoops SA and I promote events and news whenever possible (ABL promos, stats, push Talking Hoops whenever possible, etc). I have tried to provide ideas as part of the game night committee. I'm helping out by building the upcoming Academy site for nothing to demonstrate support for basketball. If I think of an idea maybe worth considering, or I see a post on the forum that would be of interest to the club, I forward it to Paul Bauer for him to consider or ignore as he sees fit (must be getting sick of it by now). Also, I will again be providing Sixers match reports this season.

If I've missed your point again, is the problem that "voting with your wallet" could be considered a political vs personal/financial thing and I've been misinterpreted back at the start of the topic?