Very Old
Years ago

Biggest waste of talent by being a pest/Ar$e ?

I know this is by nature a negative thread, but I know there has been a few good walks down memory lane in terms of "biggest unfulfilled potential" threads ( eg Aaron Trahair )and such like.

Ive always been disappointed in players who actually had some serious talent, but still acted like dicks ( this is non-gender defined as I'd include WNBL players in this list request) and were often not just overly aggressive ( is there such a thing?) but were actually nasty little hold/grab/trip when I can get away with it.

I always felt that this disrespected their own talent.

In the 80/90 that would be players like Jerry lee and Ray Gordon, the best example now would be Redhauge.

Redhauge would have to be ratted a 10 on talent , but an 11 on the dirt meter. Lee probably 8T/ 9D , Gordon 6/7. Grant Kruger would be 4/7 so the talent just was not there.

Damian Martin clearly infringes into the dirt zone by his hand / arm holding actions, but never seems to have any intent in respect of actually disregarding the safety of the other player, and only wants to mentally upset the other player by being legally in his face as much as possible, rather than frustrating him by "getting away" with shit. So he's not in my team.

Conklin is difficult, because his dirt was a couple of brain explosions of irrational dangerous actions rather than a long ongoing history of moving/holding screens, cheap elbows, hands holding onto shirts, and calculated disregard for the physical safety of other players.

I'm think the type of player who would have strongly contributed to a premiership, bur who would not engender a flicker of surprise in you , if you were told that they had been assessed two blatant and dangerous intentional fouls in a single game.

Starting team bids

G Ray Gordon 6/7
G S Heal 10/8
F J Lee 8/9
F Redhauge 10/11
C B Conklin 9/6

Id put this group ( in their relative prime)up against most teams first five, provided they could last the game out and hammer could be made to pass the ball.

any higher bids ?



Topic #40398 | Report this topic


Isaac  
Years ago

Draymond Green is a good example of this. Obviously very talented, but the flailing around is clearly designed to draw fouls he shouldn't otherwise get, and niggle or even injure other players.

Conklin's past incidents are in a similar boat IMO.

Martin just plays hard. Nothing unsportsmanlike about his attitude, I don't think. Doubt he knows any other way to be honest.

Reply #611406 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

What the hell is Damian Martin's name doing in the same thread as Gordon, Kruger, Conklin & Redhage???
I will go a bit old school and nominate Vlahov & Blakemore

Reply #611412 | Report this post


Very Old  
Years ago

I was using Martin as an example of "clean" consistently illegal/questionable play without malicious intent ( is there such a thing ?)

I agree 95% with you on Martin, the other 5% is basically not the niggle but the holding/grabbing - mainly because the refs let him ( and some other guards) get away with it.

So that's why hes not on my list. ;)

I'd look at Hire but IMO his talent level is not really high enough, his niggle helps keep him on a roster, he probably can't do it on talent alone.

Reply #611413 | Report this post


Very Old  
Years ago

Blackmore INHO would not be a contributor of a GF win on talent. Did not see a lot of him as i don't think he was in the league for long.

Vlahov would ( and did)contribute to a GF win, but i don't remember him being particularly dirty, perhaps playing a lot with Fisher meant he did not have to do it himself.

Reply #611415 | Report this post


hoopie  
Years ago

how could you leave out James Harden, Isaac?

Talented offensively but waaay to focussed on milking the refs (which is why I can't stand him).

Reply #611422 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Heal was a dick but he was also one of the better Boomers players ever and also made it to the NBA so I'm wondering how waste of talent is being defined here

Reply #611425 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

you did say WNBL players as well ..2 words..LIz Cambage

Reply #611433 | Report this post


lawsy  
Years ago

For me- Aaron Trahair seems to always pop up in these conversations. Seems talented, but looked cruisy and lazy as shit

Reply #611439 | Report this post


Very Old  
Years ago

Aaron Trahair - was not a niggle/intentional foul guy

Heal - truely had a lot of talent - he was/is a dick, could not stick with the NBA, and was considerably less impact-full as a euro player than he was made out to be, just how much of that was due to his "me against everyone else, by any means I can get away with" attitude actually holding back his talent is what I'm putting up for debate. The talent was clearly there, BUT - was it held back by his Dickness - eg always running into other peoples' fights to inflame the situation, hold/grabbing on D etc , consistent $h1T talk-this was Kruger behaviour - but he had no tallent to waste because of it, its heal behaviour + he had talent that perhaps could have been better used.

Thats a question , not a statement.

I don't know that Liz is dirty , an instigator of ignorantly petulant behaviors, a person that underdeveloped their own talent ( eg trahair) - probably yes to both, but a regular spitfull intentional fouler ? not so much IMO.

Reply #611444 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

What was so bad about Conklin's? If you watch the video he got fouled about 4 times prior to Martin coming in. People on here have no idea. Martin should definitely not be on here. Being a Perth fan I sound bias I understand but he just plays hard.

Reply #611447 | Report this post


Very Old  
Years ago

off - topic but - does anyone have a figure on how many perth fans can read ?

and hows their numeracy - 6 our of 10 is not a high score on the ol' dirt meter.

Reply #611455 | Report this post


Dazz  
Years ago

Depends on how narrowly you're defining your pet peeve.
And what you're measuring it against?

Personally, I'm tired of people selectively re-interpreting what they see on the court. Yes, technically, basketball is a "non-contact" sport. In practice, its not completely. That doesn't mean a player is "dirty" just because they play for a team you dislike.
Frankly, you lose any credibility when you name Martin, one of the most universally respected players in the league. He certainly didn't make it to the Olympics by being dirty.

Ray Gordon would have to be one of the prime examples of a "dirty" players, but he doesn't really fit your criteria because he was a talentless hack.

Guys that IMHO are wasting their talent, are those that are good enough to be great players, but constantly play for the foul. One of MY pet peeves is guys who drive to the bucket, but go for the foul first instead ofn the basket. (And yes, that seems to be a Gleeson doctrine, I'm not a fan.) The other is of course flopping.
Potentially the most annoying (IMHO) exponent of this is Ogilvy. He's big enough to hold out most players, but too often instead of holding his ground, he flops.
Goulding is another, he's a great player, an absolute game-winner, and should be admired by everyone, except for his flopping.

I actually like Redhage, he's on of my favourite Cats. Some of his flopping makes me cringe, but he has also made a career often playing against bigger guys, so I'm not sure you could class that as a waste of talent.

Reply #611456 | Report this post


koberulz  
Years ago

Yes, technically, basketball is a "non-contact" sport.
No it isn't.

Reply #611464 | Report this post


Train  
Years ago

Any reason why you keep referring to Redhage as Redhauge?

I would be including Petrie, Worthington, Dalton, Ervin, and Robbins on that list somewhere. Redhage and Worthington are 2 of the best players in the the NBL at getting under their opponents skin. I loved watching those two go head to head against each other in their prime.

Reply #611465 | Report this post


Train  
Years ago

I wouldn't say that any of the players mentioned on this thread would be a waste of talent though.

Reply #611466 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Great thread, Very Trolled.

Reply #611478 | Report this post


Camel 31  
Years ago

Wagstaff

Reply #611491 | Report this post


Very Old  
Years ago

Redhage , sorry , miss spell.

My original thing was not about the flopping, else Wagstaff would be right up there. In anycase that's a skill set that came out out of actually taking a charge, but the refs not calling it unless you fell down, it doesn't put another player into physical danger of an injury.

it was about perhaps putting more mental effort into being "dirty tough" and an irritating Dick, rather than making the most of their own "clean" skills.

Gordon was not a totally talented hack, but that's just my opinion.If you classify him as one then he's not the type I was thinking of.


Basketball was never no-contact at least in Oz since the early 70's

20 years ago at a physio conference I had heard the basketball level of contact described as "medium and strong contact" but non-grabbing and non-collision.

Ice hockey was high contact with high collision and low grabbing ( they wear gloves FCS ! )

NFL was high contact and high-collision with high strength and high-grabbing

AFL was medium-high contact with medium collision and medium grabbing but high strength.

Netball was no-contact and no-collision and no-grabbing.






Reply #611547 | Report this post


Very Old  
Years ago

Oh and basketball was also "low- impact" while NFL, AFL and Rugby were all "high impact", soccer was "non-impact" and aledgedly non-grabbing.

Reply #611548 | Report this post




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