Isaac
Years ago

Could the charge be removed from basketball?

Haralabos Voulgaris has talked on Twitter a few times recently about the idea of removing the charge from the NBA. It's fair to say he knows his basketball - runs heavy analytics for betting purposes, has a setup with 5-7 screens that he watches simultaneously, watches a crapload of games.

I gather that his argument is that the charge generally rewards running in front of someone and standing there, hardly spectacular basketball. It's likely to discourage driving to the basket for layups and dunks.

If it were to happen, what repercussions might there be? Has it been seriously considered before?

I presume that without the charge, contact where the defender had position just wouldn't be called. I guess the offence would be disadvantaged by contact, giving the defender or a teammate a chance to take possession?

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Ricey  
Years ago

Reerpcussion number one... I'll have about 40 points a game. Then on top of that every team will forfeit after the first half due to sustaining too many injuries lol

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KET  
Years ago

Reading your first paragraph, sounds like the guy needs to get out more.

Interesting idea though, I guess it would make the tough charge vs block situation easier to call.

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Isaac  
Years ago

KET, his watching NBA is essentially work/play for him. He's often courtside for games too. I'm sure he still gets out. ESPN:

He had begun betting on sports in the late 1990s, and within five years, before he had reached his 30th birthday, Voulgaris had accumulated a fortune. He says he routinely wagered a million dollars in a single day of NBA games. He considered his mean to be an unholy winning percentage that approached 70 percent. A man of no fixed address, he dated models and traveled the world. He was also an accomplished poker player, buying his way into high-stakes games from Las Vegas to Macau. He was essentially leading the fantasy life of your basic under-35 North American male.


Anyway, would the games be more entertaining? More stats? Would there be side effects that hurt the game?

I mean, we have the no charge circle. What about the lower key? Or inside the arc? Or at all?

Refs could still whistle an offence foul for anything unnecessarily rough (elbow, lifting a knee needlessly).

How many times do you see someone celebrating taking a charge and think "But you look like a dork running there and bracing yourself rather than trying to play defence to contain or steal the ball."

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KET  
Years ago

Sounds like not a bad way to live, he's like the Bond of Basketball

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AngusH  
Years ago

I get where he's coming from, and the charge/block is probably the hardest call in the game, but is this going to end up doing much more than adding about 20 extra FTs a game per team? Guys are just going to plow into crowds and fire up shots and draw contact. Drawing charges might not be exciting basketball, but I prefer watching that than a FT shooting competition.

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XY  
Years ago

It leaves no point in putting your body on the line to take a block. So you are going to get lots of matador defence and more slapping/hands fouls. It would in my view significantly change the spirit of the game, offensive players would not need to respect a defender's cone and defence would be a question each time if you wished to risk getting hurt for little or no benefit.

I can just see offensive players going out of their way to run into defenders to create contact - why wouldn't they if only the defender could be disadvantaged by doing so?

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KET  
Years ago

Agreed XY

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Anonymous  
Years ago

I hate the charge call. IMO something needs to change. Too often you see smaller defenders on bigger players just falling over and being rewarded for 'putting their body on the line'. It is stupid. If a bigger player has a smaller guy pinned, thats his advantage. Same as when a guard has a big iso'd on the outside.

I would like to see at a minimum, a defender must have his arms straight up or in proper defensive position to at least take a charge. All this rotating over, just standing in the way of a guy just to fall over isn't in the spirit of basketball IMO.

Some of these are just a joke.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnNT0Sy226w

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Spot up  
Years ago

I don't think it makes any sense to remove it, you have to be able to reward good defence in my opinion. However, flopping still needs more punishment. Even video replays post game, and fine people for it. That was the major problem in the YouTube clip above, not the rule.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Agreed, flopping is the main issue. A charge should be drawn when the defensive player has position and the contact is enough to displace them. Defensive players should be rewarded for being strong and trying to hold their position.

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Pop  
Years ago

For me this again raises the issue of how the game is called.

I suspect we could get rid of almost all flopping if officials called more offensive fouls when defenders are in good position. I suppose that means more charge calls rather than none/fewer, but there has to be a balance between attack and defense or it becomes a 'goal shooting' competition, not a game of basketball.

I am thinking particularly of post play when the 'big' - or sometimes just 'bigger' when a guard posts up his/her defender - is allowed to repeatedly shoulder charge [= charge!] the defender and physically drive him/her closer to the basket.

Skill and footwork anyone?

The mid court situation of a defender attempting to draw a charge is more problematic, and can be construed as a 'cheap shot'. If you want to sort that out maybe ban mid-court screens/blocks, which would stop defenders 'picking off' attacking players running down court but also allow defenders to maintain full-court pressure on a dribbler without having to worry about being 'picked off' by a mid-court 'sniper' screen.

If that is too extreme, maybe change the criteria for a charge. Maybe the defender/screener has to be set for longer. For example, if the current 'timing' is 'one stride' make it two, though that becomes problematic in the low-post 'power' situation.

To my mind there has to be a balance to stop attacking players simply smashing their way through valid defence, which I believe we are already starting to see a bit of with players with not a lot of body control driving into set defenses, whether penetrating from outside or 'powering' in a low post position, with the aim of drawing a foul and/or bowling players over, which brings us back to the 'flop'.

Question - if a 6'10" power forward bowls over a lightly-built 6'1" guard in a legal defensive stance, is it a flop or a charge?

Maybe, if the officials think the defender is not legal, or want the attacker to have clear path to the basket anyway, they could simply call a block. Nice and clean and simple - block/charge has always been a 'judgement' call - relatively non-controversial and doesn't carry the tech foul complication.

To return to the starting issue - in my view the charge, or some equivalent I can't envisage at this stage - needs to be retained [or implemented] to maintain the balance between attack and defense that makes a basketball game a contest and not a shooting competition.

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KET  
Years ago

I suppose what you could do is limit calling the charging fouls to particularly blatant ones.

That means, if there's a clash while the defender is in position and straight up then you let the play go on and the offensive player will have to cope with the contact in place.

Hopefully it removes the incentive for players to flop as that might allow the offensive player an uncontested shot or layup.

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KET  
Years ago

And then the offensive player will want to keep their feet to avoid contact against a defender in position.

The last thing we want is more and more freethrows... let alone flopping from both offence and defence or a messy erratic game style.

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Wilson Sting  
Years ago

Remove flopping as an in-game call and make it a post-game analysis, with hefty fines.

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KET  
Years ago

That gives incentive for players to act now, get the win and take the financial punishment later.

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Wilson Sting  
Years ago

No, because if a flop is recognised in game it's called a flop. Under my proposal it's just ignored. Technically, it shouldn't affect the game play at all.

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KET  
Years ago

It would affect the game because without the threat of a tech, a player will take the risk for close/big games, flop and try to BS the refs.

Sometimes flops can be hard to judge, particularly in the live play without use of video replay.

So you're effectively incentivising flopping and creating more potential for a ref mistake.

The best way is to prevent a player from even attempting to flop. If players don't flop there's less potential for ref's judgment & mistakes.

Although, I think there should be post-game flop analysis and hefty fines in addition to the in game warning/tech.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Shaq would come out of retirement. Bully ball time.

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MACDUB  
Years ago

The charging rule needs to be re-jigged; that's all that's required IMO.

One thing I hate is when referees whistle a charge because a guy runs into a defender some time after he has released the ball.

Pet peeve is when a player passes the ball, runs into a person and then gets whistled up for a charge.

You can't expect a guy to be able to stop on a dime then and there;

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Q: Can the charge be removed from basketball?

A: No!

Next thread please.

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KET  
Years ago

Agreed Macdub, if a player passes the ball then collects the defender i'd like to see it be let go to a certain extent.

However if they player is like a truck and puts the defender on his ass, that forces the defence to be a man down which is unfair given the defender was just standing there protecting his position.

To avoid kamikaze behaviour, this would force refs to exercise the grey area of judgment as to whether it's a flop or not.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

I would like the charge defence line moved forward 30cm.

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ROFLcopter  
Years ago

Players celebrating taking a charge really pisses me off. Especially when it is a huge framed guy like Matt Knight and apparently a midget like Randle has sent him sprawling. Ugly crappy horrible basketball.

Huge fines and suspensions for flops after post game video reviewing would fix it.

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Freethrows  
Years ago

The issue of size of players taking charges/making contact has always been a very big problem with the charge/block call. Watch a guy like Jawai defending a smaller post player (say a 3-4 guy like Garlepp), and you'll frequently see the offensive player banging into the chest of the bigger defender, trying to push him off the block, just as @Pop mentioned.

If Nate did that against a smaller opponent (imagine it was Kyle Adnam!) - well, he'd probably snap Kyle Adnam, but you know what I mean - he'd definitely be called for the foul.

I don't think the charge call can be removed, though, because it would make basketball more like rugby league. How would you stop anyone with enough ball skills to dribble into the paint with some speed, and enough size to mow down the opposition, without fouling them, if there was no charge call?

Imagine AJ driving to the hoop against any of MU's front line other than Majok, at the moment (now that Williams and Andersen are out). None of Wesley, Barlow, Blanchfield or Odigie would have the strength to hold AJ out of the paint without fouling. You would end up with too many injured players, and too many games won from the stripe.

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koberulz  
Years ago

The charging rule needs to be re-jigged; that's all that's required IMO.

One thing I hate is when referees whistle a charge because a guy runs into a defender some time after he has released the ball.

Pet peeve is when a player passes the ball, runs into a person and then gets whistled up for a charge.

You can't expect a guy to be able to stop on a dime then and there;
If you can expect him to stop when he does have the ball, why can't you expect him to stop when he doesn't?

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Why don't they just ban defence altogether?
And replace the free-throw stripe with a trampoline!

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skull  
Years ago

While they are at it, take away the 3 point line(or at least move it out further) and make the dunk a 3 pointer....

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