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Rider
Earlier this year

#41454

New team to SCM from SEABL

Word has it there is a SEABL club investigating to move across to Big V SCM and SCW. Anyone know who this might be?

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Anonymous
Earlier this year
11:41 30 Jun 17

Reply #638671

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

Someone said Frankston in the Frankston thread yesterday.


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RR
Two months ago
23:50 1 Jul 17

Reply #638735

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

Bout time they made a smart move. Do Knox/Dandy, drop down for s few years, save heaps of$$$$. Then go back up to SEABL


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Anon
Two months ago
01:37 2 Jul 17

Reply #638737

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

Why would Dandenong drop to BigV in SC, their women kill it in SEABL, they won't drop them so can't see the men moving either.


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RR
Two months ago
22:38 2 Jul 17

Reply #638752

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

Dandenong DID it back around 2005 for about 3-4 seasons then went back to SEABL. Was a smart move as they saved a heap of cash and built up juniors and transitioned then in to senior BBall. Now they are laughing back in SEABL

Knox ARE currently in their second season of Big V. It saved the club from the financial drain that SEABL is.

If a club has competing financial needs, it is a smart move


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RR
Two months ago
22:41 2 Jul 17

Reply #638753

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

If a club like Frankston did do it for a 3 or seasons it could save them $1million that they could invest in the stadium or rebuilding their juniors.


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Anonymous
Two months ago
06:44 3 Jul 17

Reply #638758

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

Knox dropped out of seabl because they are broke


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Anonymous
Two months ago
07:18 3 Jul 17

Reply #638759

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

SEABL is a massive financial drain on clubs


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Anonymous
Two months ago
11:50 3 Jul 17

Reply #638768

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

Is SEABL worth it? It appears it isn't.


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Anonymous
Two months ago
14:00 3 Jul 17

Reply #638775

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

Is SEABL worth it?

It is if your winning and competitive
It's also worth it if you can afford it
Perhaps those struggling financially should forgo their imports


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Anonymous
Two months ago
15:54 3 Jul 17

Reply #638786

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

Don't discount Melbourne...


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Anonymous
Two months ago
16:07 3 Jul 17

Reply #638788

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

Most of the imports aren't that good either.


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Anonymous
Two months ago
16:17 3 Jul 17

Reply #638792

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

I guess you haven't seen a seabl game this season.


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T
Two months ago
22:08 3 Jul 17

Reply #638815

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

Standard of SEABL has dropped dramatically in the last few years


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Anonymous
Two months ago
06:54 4 Jul 17

Reply #638822

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

Far from it. The gap between the teams other than a few is so tight this season. Upsets every weekend in fact. Seabl players going and about to go to the NBL as well makes for one of the most exciting seasons in a long time.


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Anonymous
Two months ago
09:08 4 Jul 17

Reply #638826

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

^ and there in lies the issue, the difference between the top teams and the rest is huge,teams are either flogging those in the bottom 6 or having narrow wins in the top 2

If the competition as a whole had more teams up to the same level it could and would be a very good competition,but too many teams get caught up in wanting the elite level but wont/cant find decent players


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Anonymous
Two months ago
11:35 4 Jul 17

Reply #638829

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

Two teams in each conference have not been that competitive, Coe, Candberra, Melbourne and Frankston, all other teams can beat anyone. Mount gambier look a class above but the rest is pretty even.


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Anonymous
Two months ago
11:44 4 Jul 17

Reply #638830

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

you do realize their are also women playing SEABL dont you^ and the original post was about both SCM & SCW,dont think its the same in that comp, in fact its only in the mens South comp that it looks to be an even comp, the mens EAST have a clear division between top two, then next three.


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Anonymous
Two months ago
13:47 4 Jul 17

Reply #638836

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

CoE are hardly ever competitive. Tigers are a basketcase and don't tell franga they are no good. having just beaten the Spectres. Equally Sandy got a recent scalp too.
I believe next season CoE will play a full season (about time)


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Anonymous
Two months ago
14:36 4 Jul 17

Reply #638845

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

"you do realize their are also women playing SEABL dont you^"

So? Maybe he just follows the men's?


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Anonymous
Two months ago
21:37 4 Jul 17

Reply #638869

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

Just the men. In the East conference the bottom 2 teams are clearly out of it. In the South conference take away the bottom 2 teams and the next team above them has the same number of wins in the East. That's how close it is. A few slip up from those further up the top could see them slip out of the 4 very easily.


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ex coach
Two months ago
08:05 5 Jul 17

Reply #638879

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

As far as I know, most clubs that go into SEABL subsidise their teams- the SEABL program at most/all clubs does not return a profit. In public discourse the clubs do so 'to provide their juniors with an aspirational goal to achieve'- SEABL becomes the top of the developmental pyramid at the club.
In reality, most SEABL clubs seem to be more interested in recruitment from outside, rather than development from within (the most obvious exception would be Melbourne Tigers womens team and, before respondents suggest it, I have nothing to do with that club).
The changes to the SEABL competition rules regarding Asia/Oceania imports and reducing the points value of NBL/WNBL players will make it easier to import more players to club-based teams.
So the question needs to be addressed at each club- what value are we getting in subsidising teams made up of imported (US and local) players?


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Jack
Two months ago
10:46 5 Jul 17

Reply #638883

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

At Frankston there is not a single player from their juniors that would be ready to play SEABL in the next 5+ years. Especially seeing there is NO YOUTH LEAGUE Program.

SEABL for Frankston is NOT a pathwayfor juniors at the moment. Yes it was previously but it is not at the moment.

Why would they want to run a program that hemorrhages money and provides no additional benefit to their overall program?


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Anonymous
Two months ago
11:28 5 Jul 17

Reply #638894

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

You would think they would change the rules to reduce imports/outside players. Have a rule about certain amount of players having to come from your junior program? I sense SEABL keeps going further and further away from what it should be for. They think of themselves as a mini NBL rather than the pinnacle of junior pathway. Sucks.


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Anonymous
Two months ago
11:38 5 Jul 17

Reply #638902

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

^agree , something should be done to ensure your local players actually have a pathway not just a token one or two thrown in. SEABL should not have Impoetscat all really , clubs should be working on developing their juniors so the can be at that level , they don't develop sitting on the bench
And the NBL and WNBL players that come down to SEABL should be those that are sitting on the bench playing very few of any minutes in games not the starting five players who are already "developed" and getting game time

SEABL should be the development league for the next wave of Australian WNBL and NBL players not MBA and WNBA players ..... the imports that come for SEABL are inferior to most of what sits on the dam
Bench in many cases , give the local players the opportunity to strengthen their skills, in the long run it benefits our leagues


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known
Two months ago
12:01 5 Jul 17

Reply #638903

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

SEABL is NOT a development league. It is a national league until recently was not run by BA and may not be in the future. SEABL is whatever a club wants it to be. If you have a NBL/ WNBL program yes sure use SEABL as a development league. But for most clubs and small communities its the closest they will get to professional basketball team. What do we even need development leagues for in this country for anyway???? Its not like we are popping out NBA and WNBA players by the Truck load. A country this size and the fact that Basketball is a second tier sport maybe even third after swimming. I think it is saturated with leagues that produce mediocre results because talent is so spread out. Use the state leagues for development and SEABL and WNBL/NBL are the pro leagues that run year round to keep borderline athletes playing, for the quality opals and boomers to stay home and play and for those past it can still ply ball.

And for the record Frankston has only 6 senior players and have played juniors consistently this season to their detriment. I know of at least 9 juniors who have suited up and logged good minutes for their women's side. So it is a viable pathway for those athletes as depth of talent for youth league is not there.

In saying that what are we developing these players for??
NO one values these leagues and you dam sure cant make a living from it??


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Anonymous
Two months ago
13:13 5 Jul 17

Reply #638928

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

known that may be true for regional areas which don't have pro team so SEABL fills the gap, but for all the metro Melbourne teams it should be more about junior pathways. Perfect world SEABL would exist just in regional areas, with Melb metro teams going back to Big V and focus on juniors. imo


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ex coach
Two months ago
13:49 5 Jul 17

Reply #638935

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

Hi known,
My original post was to suggest that the investment by individual clubs into SEABL cannot be justified economically- the SEABL teams suck money out of clubs. So the committees of these clubs, normally populated by SEABL supporters, justify this investment in terms of aspirational motivations for their junior programs. But this justification does not survive scrutiny (and you correctly add Frankston women's team to my suggestion of Melbourne as outliers), and will be even more difficult to sustain with changes to SEABL rules.
Maybe the mid-point is that club teams should be in Big V, and some sort of regional team goes into SEABL (i.e. a combination of the best players from Frankston, McKinnon, Chelsea and Sandringham in the bayside region). But then the question is, who would subsidise these teams?
The other alternative is to keep it going as is- but eventually questions of yield for investment will be asked at many more clubs.


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actiont
Two months ago
19:26 5 Jul 17

Reply #638965

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

Frankston are about to commit $1m of their own money towards the stadium upgrade which commences this financial year. FDBA dropping down from SEABL into BigV SC M & W could be a mechanism to raise that money through savings.


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Anonymous
Two months ago
21:05 5 Jul 17

Reply #638967

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

Franga has a spare $1mill? Seriously?


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Anonymous
Two months ago
21:33 5 Jul 17

Reply #638979

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

Leave SEABL > ? > million$$$


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Anonymous
Two months ago
21:48 5 Jul 17

Reply #638984

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

What eva that is meant to say


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Hmmm
Two months ago
07:08 6 Jul 17

Reply #639006

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

Known - I am unsure what you mean by the fact that Frankston does not have the depth for a youth side? They have under 20 and u18's VC teams do they not ??? If so there is the players right there. Who says they need to be winning championships if it is about development ?

The amount of clubs that recruit like a senior team in order to chase youth titles is a joke.

There is plenty of depth there at the moment for youth Thst depth currently leaves and ends up at other local clubs. The 6 younger players they have rotating through seabl should be in youth league getting time and developing under s legit coach.

Train them up to a point where they can push older aged players Out of the senior side.

The real reason they dropped out of youth was because of the fines they had racked up for not abiding by BIG V. Rules. If you recall both teams played out their final season for forfeits every game.

Take out the two wnbl players and the local D1 would hand the seabl Blues their ass.


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Anonymous
Two months ago
14:12 6 Jul 17

Reply #639040

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

Only reason Frankston would stay in SEABL is to please a small number of. Wet brittle egos


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Anonymous
Two months ago
14:13 6 Jul 17

Reply #639041

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

*meant to read "small number of very brittle egos"


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Southern Joe
Two months ago
15:47 6 Jul 17

Reply #639052

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

Wet brittle egos sounded better .... lmao.


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Anonymous
Two months ago
20:56 6 Jul 17

Reply #639079

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

So you are saying it was poor administration that forced Frankston out of YL?

Will they haveYL next year? If you were playing u/18s surely you would be looking to leave and go to a club with YL


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Anonymous
Two months ago
21:55 6 Jul 17

Reply #639086

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

Poor admin/turning their noses up at bigv. Thought it was below them to have game essentials. Game PA announcers, programs, floor sweepers. Big v rightly so fines associations for not providing these.
Fines weren't paid, following season both teams' games were classed as 20-0 results. Both obviously finished bottom. So if they were to come back, they would be relegated to yl1.


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Hyoid
Two months ago
12:20 9 Jul 17

Reply #639286

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

Technically they would be in YL2 as the league rules state that if you take a leave of absence you come back in at entry level ie Sherbrooke and Sth Pen men's teams playing D2M after previously playing SCM and D1M respectively. The reason Knox went straight to SCM/W was because they came from SEABL.

With that said, I'm sure if they were to bring their SEABL team in like what is rumoured, they would have some negotiating power.

IMO the first step would be to get a YL program happening and go from there. Surely that's the priority.


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Hyoid
Two months ago
12:26 9 Jul 17

Reply #639288

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

Technically they would be in YL2 as the league rules state that if you take a leave of absence you come back in at entry level ie Sherbrooke and Sth Pen men's teams playing D2M after previously playing SCM and D1M respectively. The reason Knox went straight to SCM/W was because they came from SEABL.

With that said, I'm sure if they were to bring their SEABL team in like what is rumoured, they would have some negotiating power.

IMO the first step would be to get a YL program happening and go from there. Surely that's the priority.


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Anonymous
Two months ago
12:27 9 Jul 17

Reply #639289

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

Chargers drop 2 on the road. Lose the to Tigers. Not good.


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Anonymous
Two months ago
13:02 9 Jul 17

Reply #639292

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

Bendigo struggling as well, very tight competition with mount gambier being the favourites. Sides that are getting a more even contributions going better than the one or two player big stat guys.


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Anonymous
Two months ago
18:18 9 Jul 17

Reply #639301

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

Yes some have suggested that the bottom sides aren't up to it. How wrong.


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Anonymous
Two months ago
11:59 12 Jul 17

Reply #639531

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

Coming from a number of sources, Frankston will have SCM/W and YL teams in Big V next year.


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Anonymous
Two months ago
12:30 12 Jul 17

Reply #639538

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

Anybody know the cost difference of the two comps , why is BigV more financially affordable than SEABL , they use similar stadiums , same score brnch and ref numbers , crt announcers etc AND it seems BigV teams in Sc pay bigger than SEABL for players
Yet the standard is well below that of SEABL


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Anonymous
Two months ago
12:39 12 Jul 17

Reply #639541

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

Who do you think pays for all the flights? Travel is equalised across all teams. For a 2 team club (Men's and Women's) there is probably $50k difference (approx) between Big V and SEABL. Must SEABL programs would have a budget in the area of $500k


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Anonymous
Two months ago
13:14 12 Jul 17

Reply #639543

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

Would love to see someone suggest how a $500K budget might be broken down. That's a really, really big number.


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Anonymous
Two months ago
13:21 12 Jul 17

Reply #639547

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

Flights+accommodation do add up, but how much in total who knows.


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Anonymous
Two months ago
19:24 12 Jul 17

Reply #639589

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

Smart move by Frankston. Good to see them thinking about what's best for the club long term rather than short term "status" to make a small number of people feel good.

Also great for them to have a YL program again as they are the only club in Victoria that have a senior team but nothing between juniors and their senior program


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Anonymous
Two months ago
09:02 13 Jul 17

Reply #639611

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

$500k for 2 seabl teams is way over the top.
More in the $300k+ area I would have thought. Most teams drive to games seeing as the majority of teams are in Melboune, geelong Bendigo and ballarat and albury.


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Anonymous
Two months ago
10:04 13 Jul 17

Reply #639619

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

Fly Mt Gambier, Canberra and Tasmania. You have to pay your coach, your imports, stud Australians, admin staff etc etc Also remember the flight costs are equalised so those same teams above fly every 2nd week, then add in hire cars or mini buses etc and it all adds up.

So Pioneers, Canberra (men and women), AIS, Launceston, Hobart (men and women), NWT and Sydney all fly every 2nd week roughly. Thats a lot of coin.


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Anonymous
Two months ago
12:26 13 Jul 17

Reply #639638

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

Also Qantas/Virgin price gouge domestic regional routes like crazy as highlighted in the media recently. It all adds up.


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Anonymous
Two months ago
12:40 13 Jul 17

Reply #639641

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

Sydney?
Everyone else pays for imports. Coaches get sfa. Admin staff? Since when. If there are admin staff they are part of the whole organisation, not seabl specific.
MtG don't have a womens team nor does Launceston.
and NWT.
Suggesting $500,000 is insane.
AFAIK seabl teams are now flying shitstar. Hire cars are generally cheap.
Imports pays are governed by the Oz government and they really don't earn a lot compared to any NBL player. Minimums infact.


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Anonymous
Two months ago
13:10 13 Jul 17

Reply #639647

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

Travel costs are equalised across the league - every team pays the same base. Teams can then pay for extra fights and accommodation if they want to take more than 10 people. At most that would be an extra $1500 per team per trip if you take 3 extras.

As an example of player costs, NW Tassie had their annual report on their website last year (would link it, but I can't find it on their new website) and they reported that something like $70K was paid to their men's team. I know directly of two 'successful' Melbourne clubs that operate at around the same number for their men's teams. The other four would not want to be much different given their current rosters and ladder positions.

$500K is a number thrown around far too loosely.


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Anonymous
Two months ago
13:14 13 Jul 17

Reply #639649

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

Most imports come out on minimum, which is something like $2K a month for 6 months (plus accommodation and transport)


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Anonymous
Two months ago
13:16 13 Jul 17

Reply #639650

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

Anon #639541 with the $500K remark was really just making it up. But good that this created a discussion with the above comment from someone who actually does know the reality. Thanks.


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Anonymous
Two months ago
13:36 13 Jul 17

Reply #639652

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

A decent import will get $500-$600 pw. Plus car and accom as mentioned above.


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Anonymous
Two months ago
13:40 13 Jul 17

Reply #639653

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

So $70K not $500K (lol). Makes sense.


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Anonymous
Two months ago
15:13 13 Jul 17

Reply #639674

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

Few WNBL teams operate on a budget of 500k most are well below that
So no way any SEABL team would be having a budget of 500k


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ex coach
Two months ago
15:17 13 Jul 17

Reply #639678

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

Not sure of the $70k per team.
2 x decent imports at minimum with accommodation and car costs = $30-40k
Paid Australian players = $20k
Coach minimum = $10k (unless employed as part of a bigger role at the club)

Competition Entry fees
Game presentation fees including postgame
Uniforms, medical, court hire, SEABL specific club admin costs

Financial statements at one SEABL club had it as $200,000 for their two teams combined, with some other costs shifted to other areas of the balance sheet. Total income attributed to SEABL ~ $7,000
I tried to find how much it costs to enter teams on both the SEABL and Big V websites- I am sure that these amounts were present on the websites at one time. But they have now disappeared.

To be brutal, if this was a purely economic decision, lots more clubs would be like Knox.


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Anonymous
Two months ago
15:17 13 Jul 17

Reply #639679

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

^ Wow thanks for letting us know. Talk about coming late to the party. We've moved on from the $500K BS figure.


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Anonymous
Two months ago
15:18 13 Jul 17

Reply #639680

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

^ Wow thanks for letting us know. Talk about coming late to the party. We've moved on from the $500K BS figure.

^^ This was to the anon two posts above not ex coach. Good analysis ex coach.


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Anonymous
Two months ago
15:19 13 Jul 17

Reply #639684

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

So $200K was men and women, halve that so $100K? Say men's team was $120K women's $80K. So it's close to the $70K just for men mentioned above. So $70-$120K seems like an indicative range for SEABL.


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Anonymous
Two months ago
17:26 13 Jul 17

Reply #639732

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

$200K is way to low. About $300K would be a quality franchise. Certainly some teams spend a lot more. Esp in the Men's area.
Some teams will be spending less and the results would show that.


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ex coach
Two months ago
22:15 13 Jul 17

Reply #639774

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

Just to clarify- remember that I said that some SEABL costs were shifted.


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Anonymous
Two months ago
22:28 13 Jul 17

Reply #639777

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

To the idiot #641. Launceston only have a women's team, Sydney only have a women's team and no one said MTG had a women's team.

In addition a 2 team club has entry costs of $60k before paying anyone.


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Anonymous
Two months ago
00:55 14 Jul 17

Reply #639786

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

So in summary: no one really knows.


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Anonymous
Two months ago
09:16 14 Jul 17

Reply #639793

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

The answers are there. About $300K for 2 competitive sides.


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Hmmm
Two months ago
09:41 14 Jul 17

Reply #639794

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

Thought I remember reading when all the stuff went down at Knox that it was reported they were spending 800k total on the senior program.


Big v costs below were from the 2016 season. Pretty sure extra costs are for ref fees.

Youth 2 w $4000
Youth 2 m $4000
Youth 1 w $4200
Youth 1 m $4700
Vycw w $4700
Vycw m $4900
Div 2 w $5700
Div 2 m $6400
Div 1 w $5900
Div 1 m $6600
State champ w $7500
State champ m $8500


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Anonymous
Two months ago
11:52 14 Jul 17

Reply #639802

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

Spending $800k is ridiculous. Not even Bendigo spends that much ;)


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Anonymous
Two months ago
08:35 15 Jul 17

Reply #639871

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

Frankston beat the Braves on OT last night. Must be about season over for Harvs, so up and down this year.


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Anonymous
Two months ago
12:32 15 Jul 17

Reply #639879

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

Other than mount gambier never seen so many strange results, very tight indeed. Dandenong out of the south side for me.


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Anonymous
Two months ago
21:54 15 Jul 17

Reply #639902

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

Spectres lose. Thunder lose. Interesting weekend.


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Jack
Two months ago
13:29 17 Jul 17

Reply #640002

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

So SEABL entry for two teams 60K vs State Champ 16K

Surely that can't be sneezed at. $44,000.00 better on the balance sheet before anything else. over 10 years that is close to half a Million dollars. I'm sure that would be a nice contribution to a stadium payment for a club like Frankston


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Anonymous
Two months ago
17:51 17 Jul 17

Reply #640027

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

Franga have $1mill already. So chump change for them.


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T
Two months ago
09:04 19 Jul 17

Reply #640185

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

Is Frankston entering State Champ Men & Women next year?


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I
Two months ago
09:46 19 Jul 17

Reply #640188

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

Definitely not.


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Anonymous
Two months ago
13:03 19 Jul 17

Reply #640201

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

So what will they drop to from SEABL?


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Anonymous
Two months ago
09:21 20 Jul 17

Reply #640297

re: New team to SCM from SEABL

Yeah i think it is a given that they will end up needing to drop to SCM/W at some point if not next season it will be sometime soon.

The sooner they realize it is actually not that bad and do it the better.


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