won't happen.. not this year

Is there any genuine team expansion underway? Who are the obvious Associations that could do it?

Diamond Valley- 8th in SCM and 10th in SCW in 2017.
I'd say that if they go into SEABL, they will be stacking their teams with non-DV players.
I've never had anything to do with Diamond Valley, but from the outside, this may take focus away from a consistently strong junior representative program and a growing club. And for a yield that is virtually non-existent, except for the rent-seekers.

Well that's an absolute joke lol. They struggled in SC both men and women, especially the women, they had their only half decent player leave because they couldn't afford to pay her what she wanted, the coach was atrocious, then Went on to head the UN19 women to an equally dismal finish.how will they afford SEABL quality players

What bright spark decided this lol

People said the same thing about the Tigers but they got better as the season went along. And theynwilmhe better next season

* they will be better next season

But why should teams push up into SEABL if it means that expensive senior playing spots that are filled by their own graduating juniors are now going to be more expensive and filled by graduating juniors from other clubs.
It's not like SEABL gives you a higher profile in the wider community. SEABL is as absent from the newspapers as the Big V.

Keep adding teams = Dilutes talent of SEABL

SEABL should say no

SEABL said yes to Melbourne so based on that DV easily would get accepted.

Really SEABL should be looking to add a team from the outer North East (Massive Growth Region) so a DV, Eltham, Hume makes alot of sense in he medium term more so than the ever Tigers did.

At the moment the SEABL in Melbourne is effectively a Sth East Suburbs league so a natural attraction is location.

Obviously DV would need to spend money to get a great import pairing particularly in the mens plus recruit a couple of better Australian players....perhaps they will chase NBL level guys with the new season structure ;-)

Womens level at SEABL DV can compete by only adding two key pieces (they won't play finals) to be better than the Albury type clubs.

re: anonymous
You answered my questions about joining SEABL from a player's perspective in terms of rising to the challenge.
I was asking the question from a club's perspective- what does the club get in joining SEABL?

That is why, despite the criticism that the Melbourne women's team receives on this forum in terms of results, they should be applauded for fielding a team that largely uses players who graduated from their junior program. At least that way, the club gets a yield from the enormous financial subsidization that it provides to its senior teams.

Ultimately SEABL is a better league and offers more to its participants as far as exposure and talent that's why you do it. If you don't like the league your in you find another league. SEABL is the only other league. Its an indictment on BIG V.

Both big V & Seabl have a place...really teams like Ringwood & Waverley should be pushing each other to rise and play in the SEABL comp as the aim is to compete at the highest level possible whilst providing good pathways for your juniors to hopefully play at the highest level they can. (If the juniors are up to seabl they can move elsewhere.)

I think Knox and Dandenong could both adopt the Geelong model of a youth league - Senior BigV - SEABL pathway easily enough. Others could follow as the benefits are many, for players, spectators and the clubs, as long as it is done right.

SEABL and Big V (and all State leagues) should be working inclusively to cooperate, promote the game and expand the competition, not butt heads due to inflated egos!

Would make sense to have the three tiers.

YL > Big V > SEABL

The jump from YL to SEABL is hugh so the step in the middle for a season or 2 makes really good sense rather than a kids riding the bench in SEABL while not really developing when they drop back and dominate other kids.

@Anon#423 - If you are asking me that $$$ question, it is no secret that the Supercats have been doing it that way for years, the difference now is that SEABL and the BigV are allowing more flexibility for any Association to adopt the same model without too many restrictions.

As for how they do it on a budget, well the Supercats this season has zero imports in their Big V, yet almost made the grand final in both men and women, they do have SEABL imports, but obviously manage their finances properly.

The answer lies in how you manage the $$$, how many decent sponsors you attract, how large your domestic club competition is and all of this is just common sense in the way an Association approaches it.

That's why I suggested Knox and Dandenong should be the next two to adopt the same pathway, I feel they are big enough and should be smart enough to do it without too many issues.

"The YLC in big V are really not much less in ability than the SC teams in many cases, if a club can't field a decent SC team they won't ever get a SEABL team together without spending big on all players not just a couple of imports"

The second half of this sentence makes complete sense. The first half is waaaay off the mark.

Anyway, regarding teams like Ringwood and Waverley, whilst their Senior SCM teams are probably at SEABL standard, the associations sitting below are considerably smaller than some nearby associations like Knox, Kilsyth, Dandenong, etc. The costs associated with playing in SEABL long term wouldn't really work for these associations I wouldn't have thought.

Knox are obviously an exception to this whole discussion, they'd still be in SEABL if a few things hadn't happened over the last couple of years..

Is there actually any truth to Diamond Valley entering SEABL?

^Anon you obviously know the Dandenong program well and I will not dispute what you say, obviously they are in SEABL men and WNBL women, so the dollar is already stretched.

Big V isn't cheap, so of course I understand that they wouldn't want to overshoot their budget, just thought a senior team in between was a better pathway.

I think Werribee could do it though, huge growth area and new stadium, just have to work with their council to get more support financially and they could definitely go the three tier model IMHO.

There would be quite a few here in Vic and I am sure similar model interstate could be adopted, with SEABL as the top tier, just a consideration.

http://seabl.com.au/seabl-to-welcome-diamond-valley-mens-and-womens-teams-in-2018/

Great result of DV now they just need to recruit two new senior teams as they can't put those same rosters out in SEABL or it will be worse than the Tigers teams.

They should target proven SEABL imports and try and get a couple of players of the leading Big V payers combined with a few SEABL players from Nunawading/Kilsyth etc

"I'd say that if they go into SEABL, they will be stacking their teams with non-DV players. "

Love this quote DV already stacks its Big-V teams with "non-DV Players" both seniors and youth.

They lacked talent to compete in Big V last year so you;d guess tey will be piushing hard to recruit.

SEABL season changes might make this process a bit easier perhaps they are chasing 2 imports plus NBL level talent...although that doesn't come cheap.

Certainly only 1 or 2 of the current team would be able to play a role at SEABL level

Is she leaving Melbourne after 1 year?

The issue will end up being too many Melbourne teams. It's good diamond valley and melb got it when they did

Zoe won't leave Melbourne Tiger after 1 year.
Wouldn't Dee Butler coach as she coached DV SCW this year??

So, Diamond Valley enter SEABL but are going to import most of their players.
Seems an expensive investment for a small gain.

Zoe won't leave Melbourne Tiger after 1 year.
Wouldn't Dee Butler coach as she coached DV SCW this year??


Dee butler was abismal in SCW as a coach, same as she was for un19 Gems, if they are going to go to all the expense and pay big for imports and others to fill a SEABL standard team you would hope they would look to get a coach who could get the job at least half done.

Sorry but the CEO is not responsible for the standard of team or the ability of the coaches who pick them.

If it's a bad comp it's because of who plays in it not who runs the whole thing

#646642 - Pretty fun post.
Having watched DV's SCM & SCW over the last few years the number of "fy in fly out" imports has gone up while the results have gone down, not sure how this qualifies as "people with amazing vision"

No slight to you or her just curious about what results in her coaching career makes you think that?

Ringwood are also looking to move up....unhappy with the standard in Big V.

This happens when the league focuses on quantity and not quality at the top end.

Bringing in teams.clubs to SC/SCW that aren't ready or equipped to compete has really made that division pretty weak outside of really 2 perhaps 3 teams each season.

Its great some of there Big V clubs want to make the move as they have solid infrastructure to make it work in the medium term particularly Ringwood when they make the jump.

Melbourne made the jump into SEABL without much of the club support/infrastructure that DV/Ringwood have so pending them recruiting well it can only be a good thing for SEABL

@Reality, I agree with your comments for the most part, however did the BigV bring teams in or did they just approve teams that wanted in at Champ level?

This may be semantics, but I feel the qualification for teams entering needs to be better monitored and properly assessed before new teams enter.

Even then, a team may be presented that looks great on paper and an Association may tick all the boxes, but it is later found that they are very thin and won't last at the top level, so moving down should not be looked at as a negative it should be an easier and more accepted process.

At SCM/SCW level it isn't always that most teams are not up to that standard either, it could be that the top teams are just too good or too stacked and should actually move to SEABL.

The fact that this pathway is now readily available and more options are there for clubs can only be a good thing, if managed properly, that is...

How about going to SEABL creates a better pathway for juniors. It allows them the opportunity to play in a national competition and travel and play against some of Australia's best every game. Why would you want the highest level your kids can play at to be a state competition. DV will retain more players and attract others who want to play in the second highest league in Australia which effects the bottom line. So Losing or not it's smart and it benefits the club long term in attracting juniors from the area as well as players returning home from college. Why do you think dandy continues to rip the best juniors from other clubs?? The lure of WNBL. The higher the level you have to offer the better quality of players are attracted to your program..

@Bear - Its a bit of a build it and they will come theory for the SCM/W comps in the last few years. But what a number of reasons the general standard has dropped off significantly and one key reason is diluting of talent at the top end to SEABL/Div 1 teams etc.

@Anon676 - Agree both Tigers/DV will most likely struggle in SEABL early doors but you'd have to say at least DV have the infrastructure to make a better go of it in there first few seasons.

Money in the Big V has some guys chasing paper in lower Divisions which has hurt SCM but if that's your soul motivation for playing ball at the Semi-pro level its a sad life you living!

Most hungry/competitive guys will embrace a team in the Northern suburbs so DV should be talking to the best Eltham/DV/Hume players and chasing 2 solid imports and 1 NBL level talent and they should be in a position to compete. As we have seen with MT G you only need to have 4 top line talents and then 3 solid rotation guys to be successful.

Here's the thing, I speak to many parents of young kids coming into a club for the first time. Basketball competes with many sports, so what will club officials say to these parents?

1. Yeah come play with us until your kid turns 18, then I'm sorry but you will have to leave and choose football/netball and just play domestic hoops with your mates if you want to stay with our club and still play basketball. But, if you are really good and come back from college or something we could have a spot for you, maybe!

OR

2. Come play with us and here is the pathway, VJBL is an option, then if you want to stay and work hard we offer YL Big V, also you can remain and continue in the BigV as a senior and we even have SEABL if you progress to that level.

I know not everyone wants to play at that level, but I can tell you that parents at least want to hear that there is options and a progressive pathway for their kids and as the kids grow, more of them will potentially choose to stay with the sport.

I applaud the Associations that are looking at improving their pathways, mostly because there are more and more kids that want to play, we just need to get the message out to them, in a positive fashion.

Play for fun first, but if you want to get serious stay with us, we can cater for you!

Anon^, the home grown player retention issue can also be helped by the league, by implementing a rule that a certain percentage of the team must in fact be home-grown.

Also, your comment about the very top elite level of NBL/WNBL isn't quite the same as State level like the SEABL/BigV pathway.

All top tier national sport is now about drafting the best players from anywhere, not necessarily home grown, which is what should be driving the State level competition, even at SEABL level.

I know SEABL isn't a home grown league, but that doesn't mean it can't be slightly amended to suit the pathway.

Not sure why people are so obsessed with senior teams being "home Grown" surely its about putting the best product out on the floor every year to try and win senior titles.

Pathways are great and if your club supports and nurtures talent through the pathway if the player is good enough they will force their way into the senior team, if the player isn't good enough they won;t make the team..its tough but thats life!

I wouldn't agree that people are 'obsessed' with home grown players, however that is a much bigger consideration in country areas than in the city, where you can play at several Associations due to far easier logistics.

I guess to some degree I always tend to consider country and metro as one and that any rules or improvements need to suit the whole league, not just have a narrow minded approach such as has been in past decades.

That would make it 19 clubs, not sure if every one has male/female teams, but currently 17 Associations/clubs.

They are split into two conferences anon^, not an issue...

How many teams will be in SCM and SCW? Surely they need more than 9 in the top division??

Many juniors simply aren't good enough to play in their clubs senior teams. And once finished age restricted basketball , players are competing with players several years older and more experienced, so there is simply not enough good players, and not enough spots. If a local player is GOOD enough, they will get a spot. Don't hand spots out.

There IS a place for juniors in SEABL. Its not like DV are abandoning their youth league teams like Frankston. Those kids will have time to develop until they are 23 and if they never make the transition then at least they had a fair go.

Let them develop in youth league, this is the problem players want to run before they can walk

SEABL is no longer 2 conferences

Home and Away from each team would be the best for league parity

20 teams
19 games
14 weeks
5 double headers

Thats what they want

QBL is a shorter season

They want a condensed season to attract more Fringe and Bench NBL guys to the league.

Also hopefully better Imports as well

Grant Wallace is the DV coach...his great SEABL coaching record in recent times speaks for itself.

Good start to life is SEABL!

The coaches they have signed have proven results at others legit levels. I'm sure they will be fine.

SEABL particular in the men's game has change alot in the last 3/4 years. The style has changed with the succesful teams embracing the change and results showing.

Perhaps the coach will adjust accordingly as recent results show otherwise but we'll see.