Isaac
Years ago
Philadelphia on the road, but take down Houston 115-107. Embiid 22/9/5, Simmons 24/7/9 on 10/15 FG.
That's a pretty fancied opponent to get and an excellent statline from Simmons despite the 5 turnovers.
Simmons is averaging 17.5 PPG, 9.5 RPG and 7.5 APG. Dream start to an NBA career.
Offensive stats are so overrated in the modern NBA.
There is next to no defense played in the modern NBA, 3 pointers being jacked off every 10 seconds.
No wonder so many players are getting so many triple doubles these days.
Last seasons BEST defensive team by defensive efficiency was the Warriors.
If you take there figure and put it in the 2003/4 season, they would rank 17th.
Says alot about standard of the league.
Warriors had a defensive efficiency last season of 1.009
That ranks 17th in the 2003/4 season
paul
Years ago
I'm not sure it says a lot about the standard of the league, I would say it says more about its priorities.
A lot of leagues around the world are cleaning up the way the game is played, making it harder to defend, because they believe offence sells tickets and gets TV viewers.
paul
Years ago
And yeah, what a start by Simmons, we all knew he was going to be a superstar but how quickly he is making a big impression is incredible.
SO alter the rules to make it easier to score to make it more attractive for viewers?
Exactly reinforces my point.
Its like in baseball where they juiced the balls so more HRs get scored because it gets more viewers.
If that is the case, the offensive stats in baseball become overvalued.
Have a look at yesterday's World Series game. Crazy amount of runs and homers scored. Also nowadays gridiron players are making crazy one handed catches due to sticky adhesive on their gloves and it isn't banned. All American sports do it to increase entertainment levels.
paul
Years ago
The Euroleague has done it, the NBL has done it, the AFL has done it. Sports leagues rely on being attractive to attract fans.
Anon
Years ago
I can hear someone typing now "the NBA is Americas bush league"
PlaymakerMo
Years ago
"Last seasons BEST defensive team by defensive efficiency was the Warriors.
If you take there figure and put it in the 2003/4 season, they would rank 17th.
Says alot about standard of the league."
If offensive efficiency improves on average, defensive efficiency declines... You can't determine the 'league's standard' just by looking at efficiency statistics.
Manu Fieldel
Years ago
Nothing better than jacking off three pointers
The whole league has changed...and it is simply due to the Warriors.
The whole league has been fooled into thinking that to win in the NBA, you have to play with pace with plenty of 3 point shooting.
Because the Warriors do it, then everyone else can do it. What fallacious thinking.
No team has the Warriors skill set. Yet teams think they can emulate them.
I just laugh when a team like the Pelicans plays at such a furious pace and jacks up 3s.
The Pelicans main strengths are Cousins and Davis. 2 bigs that should be slowing down the game and dominating the paint. Not playing Warrior ball.
The Warriors have fooled and conned the entire league. No wonder no one can get near them.
When a team like the Nets that can rattle off 130 points no worries shows there is something really wrong going on.
paul
Years ago
I think the Warriors are the cherry on the sundae of a change that's been taking place over a while.
No team has the Warriors skill set. Yet teams think they can emulate them.The Warriors have fooled and conned the entire league.
Marc Gasol today, out of his 15 shot attempts...8 of them were 3s LOL
Just shows the FLAWED thinking...he should BEASTING the paint
Nothing wrong with jacking off from long range as long as you're splashing them. Marc 'Gasolina' Gasol is hitting at 40% this season which is pretty decent.
Hogwash
Years ago
" thanks for the spoiler "
Stay of the internet derp.
Houston is missing paul so it's not a true indication right now where they will be by the playoffs with CP3 back
As much as traditionalists love the bigs who dominate the paint and through post-ups,you can't win that way. And analytics prove that.
The most efficient shots per possession is layups, followed by 3s, followed by FT's. Post-Scores and mid-Range is a fair way behind that.
I actually like the change of the way the game is played, every player is now accountable to actually have skill and be able to shoot as a player, rather than just be big and/or athletic.
Zodiac
Years ago
As much as traditionalists love the bigs who dominate the paint and through post-ups,you can't win that way. And analytics prove that.
Look at the era when Shaq dominated, not a whole lot of 3s being attempted in comparison, and analytics wasn't exactly a thing back then either. If those Lakers stuck to their same play style and played today, they simply wouldn't be able to 'keep up' with the top teams.
If Post-Scorers were a way to win in the analytics era, then Jahlil Okafor would be an All-Star. Big men are still dominate, look at Towns, Embiid, Cousins, Davis, Lopez, Griffin, Horford, Love, Turner, Gasol brothers, Aldridge, Porzingis... I could keep going. Talent wise they stack up against the bigs of previous eras, but you can't deny their skills are a whole class above a majority of the previous era of big men.
A lot of older bigs have had to reinvent their game to stay relevant, as being big simply isn't enough to be good anymore, so if you want to play at the highest level, you need to have skills, no matter who you are.
These people who are talking about analytics is as if it is some sort of ground breaking invention.
Nothing has changed, the math has always been the same.
The issue is if you have the SKILL SET to take advantage of it.
Clearly teams do NOT yet are still playing that way.
This is what makes me angry. Teams are playing a certain way regardless of the skillset of there players.
Also, why is every team playing so fast?
Because the Warriors do..because EVERY TEAM IS TRYING TO COPY THEM.
I can only imagine Kerr sit back with his coaching staff and laugh at every team and what he has done to them.
He has essentially fooled the entire NBA into believing that they can beat his team playing the Warriors way.
What a con job.
Just to add some basic numbers to this, the best offensive teams (Warriors, Rockets) in today's NBA average 7 more pts per game than the 2001 Lakers despite averaging 2 less FGA per game and 4 FTA per game, Offensive Efficiency also has a 7 point difference in favour of the 2017 NBA. The numbers look even more favourable the further back we go in time and compared to other top offensive teams from that same 2001 season.
I don't buy into people copying the Warriors. The Warriors perfected a trend started by Don Nelson eons beforehand.
And the Warriors have the lowest Pick and Roll % in the league, don't see anybody trying to copy that. It's still the go to for nearly everyone else.
lol, so the 01 lakers with the ball being fed to Shaq who then posted and drained the clock played faster than the current Warriors?
lolol
Luuuc
Years ago
The nature of the game makes it harder to compare stats between today and another era, but they still tell you about player 1 today vs player 2 today, and Ben Simmons is absolutely killing it right now. Extraordinary start to his career.
The Nets with a team of
Russell, Carroll, Holis-Jefferson, Mozgov and LeVert are coming 3rd in scoring LOLOLOL
Yep it must be so hard to score in todays NBA
Zodiac
Years ago
Exactly scoring doesn't mean much in today's NBA because the standard isn't there. And to the anon that made the hilarious comment that those Shaq-era Lakers teams wouldn't be able to keep up, they'd beat every team in the NBA today by 20+ points.
Yes, i never said ANYTHING about there record.
I am talking about SCORING.
Such a team of D leaguer's coming 3rd in scoring shows how absurdly easy it is to score in todays NBA.
One way to to fix it up is to eliminate the corner 3.
Where the arc starts to straighten out and become parallel with the sideline, instead of it becoming straight, it should just continue to go to curve until it meets the sideline....that will eliminate the corner 3.
Also take back the 3 point line a foot and a half.
That will throw analytics into turmoil
Luuuc
Years ago
Sure, if you're happy to concede more than you score then it's easy enough in any league to ramp up the pace and get a shit load of shots up.
"One way to to fix it up is to eliminate the corner 3.
Also take back the 3 point line a foot and a half."
Also, shrink the rings so that the basketball barely fits. Deflate the balls as well so they bounce off the ring more. Then rig the skilltester so that the claw doesn't grasp the toys in the machine.
LV
Years ago
Great finish today but interesting that Embiid and Simmons have a negative +- this season together
I am not against scoring....i like to see PARITY. I like to see the defense have a chance.
I have the same gripe with cricket.
Larger thicker bats, flat pitches and boundaries moved in has seen bowlers get absolutely caned.
This is the movement in sport.
Alter the rules to make it more attractive and increase viewership.
Its not sport anymore
Isaac
Years ago
Can't work out if anon is hating on offence, Simmons, the game of basketball, the current era, stats, any team that isn't the Warriors. Seems like a very sour and confused set of arguments to try and make, and I don't even know what the argument is meant to be. Just hating for the sake of it?
How is a changed game not sport? The size of a field or width of a bat or number of balls in an over is completely arbitrary. Both teams play by the same rules.
Anyway, Simmons' highlights from the Rockets game are here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1rzeY7Eg4E
Cliff
Years ago
Used to think that sport was sweet
Used to think we could all complete
I can't believe they'd throw it away
Used to feel sport was for all
Could play both sides of the ball
Can you imagine how I feel today?
Well it seems a long time ago
There was integrity
How it went so wrong I just don't know
Can't even play some D
It's shit if you ask me
It's so funny how it's not sport anymore
It's so funny why it's not sport anymore
Really?
Years ago
Defense doesn't have a chance because the coaching and analytics have changed.
If GSW had Shaq shooting at +60% each time they would be throwing it to him like the 2001 Lakers did. But they also wouldn't have Kobe shooting a bunch of contested mid range shots. But the defensive help rules were also different back then regarding helping and recovering.
The best comparison you could have made was the Mark Jackson led Warriors to the current team.
The biggest stat the Warriors focused on was the number of passes rather than Iso-ball sets. The warriors under Kerr actually increased the average number of passes per game by around 70 per game leading to greater offensive efficiency. And rather than Iso Ball mid range shots, which everyone who has a clue about basketball stats know are bad shots, they are now free to shot better, more efficient shots.
anon, you are clearly clueless as this has been happening since the 80's, but a majority of old school players haven't wanted to buy in cause the game was better in their day.
And if we are looking at the 2001 Lakers v the Warriors Death lineup. Who does Shaq guard down the other end? And who then guards KD?
My gripe is every team is copying the Warriors with Pace and 3 point shooting.
This is my gripe.
Before teams would play the style that BEST suits the skill set of there players. End of Story.
Now, regardless of what teams have, they are copying the Warriors.
Its like getting a NASCAR and trying to win a rally event.
Teams are just blindly copying the Warriors.
"You can try to copy it, but you won't have the personnel. There isn’t another Draymond Green, another Klay, another Andre. If you put your small-ball lineup next to ours, we like our chances" - Steph Curry
Also REALLY, against that death line up, who guards Shaq and prevents him from getting a dunk every time he gets his hands on the ball?
Draymond? LOL
Shaq would have humiliated him.
Really?
Years ago
They'd scheme and send early doubles, deny entry lanes and happily give up 2 point Shaq dunk's for 3 point shots down the other end.
Teams are doing it because even for 33% three point shooters, its better to take the 3 than the 50% 2 point shot.
Plus 3 point shots provide better offensive rebounding advantages especially when you are only sending 1 big to the O boards like a lots of teams are doing because the rebounds go further out. So you can get a better rebound rate as well as better transition defense.
And teams are doing it to develop those kinds of players because its means they are more likely to win more games, not because they expect to defeat the warriors.
Ricey
Years ago
No. The teams aren't copying Warriors with space, speed and 3s. They are copying Mike D'antoni.
Isaac
Years ago
My gripe is every team is copying the Warriors with Pace and 3 point shooting.But they're not blindly doing it. You really think Pop is "copying the Warriors"? Or that the Rockets aren't driven by their own data analysis to shoot more and more threes, with a team suited to doing that? Other teams slow the game where it suits them, but will face pressure throughout the game by another team trying to push a different tempo that suits them more.
This is my gripe.
Bear
Years ago
Well, this thread certainly moved into a different space, didn't it!
On the 76'ers and Ben Simmons, he will be (if not already) a genuine NBA super star like LeBron and Kobe etc...
The Philly's are a very talented young team, like so many coming through in the NBA right now, it is very exciting times. They will have their big wins, but young teams always need to work on their consistency to get to the finals games.
On the evolution of the game at NBA level, well it always changes and people always have an opinion, based on statistics and evaluations, quoting articles and making comparisons.
I'd rather sit back and enjoy the ride, it is one hell of a show isn't it folks.........?
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