10 people running around a restricted space... who do you expect to control it!?

How exactly do refs need to have a look at themselves?

What do you mean "so much control" Is it

- calling fouls or violations
- tech fouling abusive parties
- making calls to the score bench

If this is too much control I suggest you need to switch sports; perhaps WWE suits your requirements for lack of control.

Umpires are not perfect; they make mistakes. As long as they strive to improve and they are consistent with their calls in a game then I can live with them. The game certainly can't "live" without them.

Have you ever pulled on a balck & white top, put a whistle around your neck, and umpired a game yourself "I dont know"...even an under 10's match??

If not, where do you think you get the right to criticise thise people who give up their time to go and umpire a game??

Let me tell you the last game I umpired before I decided to retire, and decided because of this VERY reason.

I was umpiring an under 12's after school game, after working an 8 hour day, and was helping out because they were short of refs this very night. I caught a taxi to the stadium ( mt wife had the car), which cost me $20 from work.

Tyis game, a player started trash talking another player. I was about to tell him to stop (zero tolerance, even for trash in under 12's), when he let go with a string of obscenities at another player.

I automatically teched the player. His comment to me then of "you f***n what?" earned him a second tech.

His then gesture of flicking the fingers under the chin (mafiaso style) towards me got him thrown out of the game.

The abuse I copped from parents and coaches afterwards was unbeleivable, including sticks and bottles being thrown at my car when my wife picked me up.

I have not reffed since, and probably will never do so again. This includes a Saturday morning social program I reffed at, who are screaming for decent umpires, but cant get them for all the abuse that is levelled at them.

So, now you know some of the world we live in as refs (and I am sure others such as Grey Area and Jirachi could give you plenty of other horror stories), perhaps you might want to back off on the refs a bit, and actually applaud the hard work they do.

I have umpired from the very lowest grade to the highest. I have coached from low to high and I have played only social ball. When an umpire, I have always tried to do my best to the players and tried to be consistant. Trying to do this brought more abuse than pats on the back. When I have coached I have always asked for consistancy in umpires, bad, good or indifferent, as long as it was consistant. What used to get me very irate and upset were the lazy refs, the inconsistant, the arrogant, especially the arrogant, that knew they could get rid of me as a coach with tech fouls and there was nothing I could do about it.
Maybe that's what the original poster is talking about.
I am not having shots at refs, but all it takes is a ref that is lazy, smug and arrogant to create a bad picture to players, parents and coaches. One bad apple as the saying goes.

The best refs are the best communicators.

I still believe that a ref that may not be the best technically can more than make up for it by being a good communicator and not acting like they are a power-tripping police man on steroids.

How many posters on this board have had a situation where a low-level ref makes an absolutely shocking call and when questioned (no abuse or swearing involved) the ref has compounded there error by giving a tech.

The abuse mentioned above in previous posts of sticks being thrown and carrying on in the car park is not on but some of the tech fouls being given that only compound some very average calls is getting to a ridiculous stage.

Can somebody please answer me why refs always come up with the 'well why don't you umpire then' line? Is that a mandatory line they teach at umpiring teaching sessions.

I mean who else would get away with it?

Can you imagine a negligent Doctor who doesn't know what they are doing saying, 'well why don't you become a Doctor', or a negligent teacher who doesn't know maths trying to teach maths saying, 'well why don't you teach maths'. The list goes on and it is ridiculous in all circumstances.

The big problem I see is not only are very young and inexperienced refs being thrown in the deep end where no doubt mistakes are going to be made for obvious reasons but they are being taught to dish out techs when a simple question is asked.

I don't have a problem with the refs, moreso the seniors that you see standing around doing nothing while no doubt collecting money at the end of the day.

The amount of U/16 games I have seen where both teams are smashing each other because there are a couple of 13 year olds umpiring is not only ridiculous but very dangerous.

A New South Wales court made a rather large award of damages against an Association for using a very inexperienced umpire in a junior Rugby game. A scrum collapsed and a player was left paraplegic. The Court held that if a reasonable level of officiating was provided the incident may not have occurred.

Obviously basketball is different to rugby but I have coached many games where I have felt that if senior refs were umpiring the players would be a lot safer. Have any of the other posters felt the same way either in terms of coaching or playing?

I don't mean for this to be a whinge against umpires because there are many decent hard working ones out there. However, there are definitely the senior ones out there who sit back and watch a game get out of control because of two rookie refs and sit back and do nothing.

The players and spectators pay good money each week for the association to provide two things: a safe court and a reasonable level of officiating.

I sympathise if the numbers of umpires is so low that a reasonable level of officiating can't be guaranteed but I feel if that if the Association whether it be District, Church, School or Social can't deliver those two things then they shouldn't accept peoples' money and play the game.

Thats all good and fair Stephon (and I am one of those umpires who use the "why dont you ref then" line...because people like to tell us how to do our jobs, and my reaction is along the lines of, if you know my job so well, why aren;t you doing it??)
....you say it's about communication, correct. But that's a 2 way street. If a coach, or a player asks me quietly and respectfully (which is the actual wording of the rule in relation to speaking to a ref) why I made, or did not make a certain call, I will be happy to explain, if not then and there, certainly at a suitable break in the game. If they want to get in my face, and yell at me, yes, you can expect to be teched.

I am in no ways a great ref, and I know my short comings, and train my mind to try and overcome them. I beleive I am a decent, average grade ref, capable of handling pretty much any social, and most junior level district games. My speed isn't the greatest because of my weight problems (hey..lost 17 kgs in 3 months and still losing...I might be back sooner than what I thought!!).

Refs get paid sweet FA (we get basically a "petrol allowance") and give up their time to ref. Sure, you say the associations shouldnt accept the money....what would you be doing/saying if you rocked up to your stadium on a cold, wet, windy July night, for a 10.10pm game...only to be told "sorry, we dont have any refs, we have cancelled your game".....hmmmm....abuse to to door keeper instead. And dont use the "they should have known earlier and rang us"....a ref may have been injured before hand (who was programmed to do your game solo)...and there is just no one else.

Anyway...enough ramblings....I think we have done all this before on other threads.

(By the way, any UIC's or anything needing to boost up their ranks, give me an email ;) )

sounds like u need a tissue watcher :'(

if there wasnt reffs you would have heaps of people trying to control the game. the reffs are the ones that make the call no one ealse. people think they have it better than the reffs and they might. but that doesnt mean you can got criticies the over a few calls

Sorry to hear you use that line Yogee. LOL

The point of my post was not a criticism in any way of individual umpires but was more a criticism of the associations.

As I posted, I appreciate the lack of resources and that inexperienced refs have to start somewhere but when you see a game get completely out of control and a couple of senior refs just stand around and watch (with at most a couple of words after the game) I don't think it is good enough.

With my example of not playing the game if the association can't supply two reasonable refs, you know I did not mean not telling a couple of social teams playing a 10.10 game that no game can be played because the stadium doesn't have a couple of Bill Mildenhall's that are going to supply international level umpiring.

What I was referring to in my post was not bad umpiring or umpiring that was not up to a great standard.

What I was talking about were games that are allowed to be played where there are two very young children umpiring the game that will not blow their whistle if a player was to punch someone in the head. The type of unreasonable umpiring that has both sets of players, coaches, parents and spectators all in agreeance that this service is just not good enough for their money. More importantly the type of umpiring that has parents pulling their children out of an association.

With your point about communication, I couldn't agree more. At no time did I post that a tech shouldn't be given for abuse, swearing, etc.

While I agree that players, coaches and spectators should act with respect towards the officials, I believe the same applies to refs. The vast majority of refs do but there are definitely some that thing the game is all about themselves which I don't agree with.

Are players taught to respect referees and instructed in how to best request an explanation of a call?

I can't speak for others but the team that I coach know that if they get a tech they automatically get benched. It works for me.

Like I said, I don't get angry with the umpires in the U/16 league I coach. How can I get angry and rant and rave at a couple of 12 year olds who quite obviously has been thrown in the deep end. It isn't their fault.

I dont think the age of the umpire has anything to do with it.

It is all about skill sets.

I have seen some great teenage refs umpiring senior level games, and do way better than the senior refs running around, and converesely, I have seen some very ordinary senior refs doing junior games.

I am no training guru, but I have helped develop some training courses for companies as part of my employment over the years, and maybe Nathan Durant, or whoever takes over the role vacated by Rod Ridley needs to look into "modulising" refs training, breaking down skill sets, and getting refs to concentrate on those skill sets.

For example...one week it't violations...they run along with a pre determined senior "coaching" ref...the senior ref makes all calls except for things like the travels, 3 seconds, etc..and the trainee ref calls these. Then the next week, hands fouls, adding onto the violations....and build their skill sets up that way.

Only a suggestion off the top of my head, dont know how feasible it would be.

Most people wouldn't know a good referee if one fell on them.

What is it that you think makes a good official?

How old should one start refereeing?

How do you keep people refereeing when they stop going to school and life becomes harder. They have to start earning money and basketball refereeing doesn't bring in the bling bling!

How much experience should they have in basketball before they begin.

Where/what level do they start with?

Refereeing: a job where you must start off perfect and get better.

How do you improve a developing referee?

It's not the refereeing that needs improving, it's peoples attitudes towards the referees that needs attention. Refereeing/Umpiring is a thankless job that will never be perfected unless they are full-time professional, and even then they are not right 100% of the time.

As soon as the spectators/players understand this, the better.

True, there is a lack of discipline and understanding from a whole range of people involved in the sport.

I think that coaches are more responsible for the way the game is played than the referees. Juniors standard wouldn't get physical if the coaches didn't instruct their players to win at the expense of playing out side of the rules.

I doubt anyone has respect for a young official simply because they are young. Age has little to do with it, it's a matter of experience and confidence. Communication bridges the gap of understanding and is such a helpful tool to have in life, let alone in our sport.

Referees make fewer errors of judgement than others involved in the sport.

And let's face it, when you only have one eye, the ref will always be 50% wrong.

BASA doesn't support the officals, to it they are a necessary evil. There are no incentives to become a ref or more importantly to remain in the game.

If you look around it's the 16-21 yo's that we lack from refereeing. They get paid better flipping burgers than they do to referee a few games.

My two cents.

Something they do in the Ameatur Football League lower grades is that each club supplies their own umpire for the match. Can this be/or is this implemented in basketball?

Over the past few months, I have spoken to a number of umpires, umpires-in-charge and evaluators about the standard of district refereeing in South Australia. The consensus is that the standard would improve if there were more people umpiring. This would fix at least two problems:

forget clubs supplying their own referees - as per amateur footy.
That has proven to be very dodgy.

Paul is correct with what he says.

Accept the fact human error plays a part in all facets of basketball.

If the pool of referees increased it may improve - but how many refs cite fatigue or over use as an excuse for a poor game.

A common understanding between refs and players needs to be established regarding what can be expected on the court.

I am a strong believer that no child should referee any grade older than their actual age.

Again Paul you have many words of wisdom.

Basketball is just not attracting umpires for a number of reasons. You see some parents at stadiums get stuck into some of these junior umpires and it is just unfair. Why would a teenager put up with that when they can go work at McDonalds or Hungry's and get paid more with out the crap they have to put up with?

I think the clubs should play a more active role in umpire development. Umpires come from junior players and this is where the clubs can play an active role.

The price for admittance should not increase as parents pay through the nose already. MW made a point about football. Maybe basketball in this State need's to look at other sports to see what they are doing to assist in new ideas. You can also say that the AFL have driven umpire develop country wide by attaining a major sponsor. The majority of the sponsorship goes to umpiring development in grass roots football. Are we barking up the wrong tree when we say that BASA should be the one's improving umpiring in this State? Should there be more drive from BA to help the standard across the board? This is more food for thought then anything.

Umpires do make mistakes and maybe more tolerance in the local basketball community is needed. At present, there are a lot of young developing umpires that need coach and parent support. Maybe we need to look at ourselves on an individual level to see how we can help promote umpiring in this State.

With out these people that we bag, the game does not go on.

At a previous club I was involved umpire training was provided by BASAs former Umpire In Charge for all U14 players. This was compulsory training day and was instead of team training. At the end all the U14 players taking part were accredited by BASA.

The plan was (im not sure what came of it as Im not with the club now) to feed those kids from U14 Umpire course back into a regional competition that had been setup in conjunction with our local stadium. That way these kids can earn some pocket money through basketball (rather than jobs at McDonalds which are not always complimentry to district training times), at times that worked in with their trainings, and your Div 1 / 2 kids get the chance to see the game from an umpires perspective.

Going on from Paul Arnotts post this may be something that Sturt, Noarlunga and Forestville want to look at. Great way to get umpires for your regional competitions and get your kids earning money from the game and seeing the game from the other perspective.

Rite,

Im not so sure working at Maccas or Hungrys is that good. My younger brother did that for a while. Got paid $8-9 per hour and used to get end up working the fries. Came home and got sick every night from seeing all the fat and grease. Also the hours are not complimentry to doing yr 11, 12 as you often end up working until 1-2 AM in the morning and the cab ride home costs 3-4 hours wages anyway.

My point is if kids are taking McDonalds jobs over umpiring etc. then something is SERIOUSLY wrong.

Good call Incognito, re getting Under 14s involved in umpiring - this is something that we are already planning on doing. Forestville and Sturt will need to recruit/train/mentor a large number of umpires for the City South Conference, and think seriously about my above three points ASAP.

Solutions such as zero tolerance on abuse and increased umpiring payments, have been proposed in the past, but either haven't had the universal support of the clubs, or have been supported in theory, but not acted upon. Clubs need to shoulder the responsibility for this - if we don't dollectively fix the problem, it won't get fixed.

Kids are taking burger jobs over umpiring and I agree that a burger place should not be chosen over umpiring.
Paul you do have a valid point and I agree that the clubs should assist in developing umpires. BUT, why should this be? Why is it that the clubs have to develop players, coaches, promote the game in a positive fashion and also provide umpire development? Clubs have limited resources and should be focused on player and coach development.

BASA are the ones that have to make umpiring more attractive and should be looking at possible way to do so. I am not sure and someone please let me know, but do BASA have an umpiring committee?

Rite,

I'm unsure of the current structure of the BASA umpiring hierarchy, since Rod Ridley's resignation.

There are a number of benefits of clubs developing umpires as opposed to or in conjunction with BASA. Clubs do have limited resources, but the most important "resource" for recruting umpires is people. Clubs have access to a large number of members (players, parents, coaches), all of whom are potential candidates for umpiring recruitment.

Clubs can help remove the stigma within their club associated with being an umpire. This is more difficult for BASA to do, as they don't have as much control over the attitudes of parents/players/coaches as clubs do. Clubs are more able to create a game-day environment conducive to attracting umpires than BASA is.

There's also the benefit of umpires belonging to a more community-oriented organisation. Umpires associated with a club are less likely to cop abuse from players/parents/spectators of that club, as they are seen to be part of the same organisation. Currently, people seem to have no qualms with abusing umpires working for a faceless organisation, even if those umpires are also club juniors!

You're right, Rite. Clubs don't currently have the resources to do a good job of umpire development, but we should be making an effort to attain those resources. In the short term, we should at least be working with BASA to help them recruit/develop/retain umpiring talent, rather than working against them.

Referees do not have an association of their own nor are they adqeauately supported by BASA.

Paul, you have some good ideas there regarding extra pay. Do you know what the pay difference between an ABL ref and a rookie ref would be on a U18B1 game? ABL Ref, Level 3 would earn $12.70 for the match. The rookie ref, Level 1, get's paid $10.30. No wonder you don't see many of the top refs out on Friday nights...

Add to this there is a giagantic gap between the elite referees and those that follow in the panels below.

Everyone improves with experience, providing they are learning from someone who knows better and are supported along the way they will develope.

A referee goes through a similar process as a player. Learn basic skills, start off at a low standard and then steadily progress through the ranks. The cream will rise so to speak.

Where we are faultering at the moment on any given night we have to cover X many stadia with X many games with X many referees. We just don't have the necessary number of good referees to referee the number of games that are required.

The position of Referees Director was advertised in very small print in Saturday's Advertiser.

Yeah - I saw that. $30k-$35k.

Reckon a top candidate would apply for a position with that level of remuneration? Maybe BASA need to delve deeper into their pockets to ensure they get a top person for the top job.

It all starts at the top.

Having said that, getting individual Clubs to support referees would be a giant step forward as well.

Mr Nice Guy,

A Level 2 and above ref gets $12.70 for a 75 minute game and $10.30 for a 60 minute game.

A Level 1 ref gets $8.30 for a 75 minute game and $7.20 for a 6o minute game.
Some of the better Level 1 refs and also depending on the area manager, get $9.20 for a 75 minute game and $8.30 for a 60 minute game.

is this money exempt from tax

Yes it is, as are doorkeepers and UIC's.

Sorry Alf, I should've known that.

$35kpa isn't going to attract the right person with the necessary expertise that the role demands.

Technically he is the only person who is "responsible" for the refereeing standard in South Australia.

FYI, the position of "Coordinator, Referee Development" was advertised on the BASA web site today, and will also be advertised on the Basketball Australia website shortly.

In regards to the Coordinator of the Referees, have any Senior Coaches thought about applying? Like Gary Fox was the NBL Referees Coordinator before they run out of cash.

It would be a great way to have the referees/players and coaches all on the "same page".

Umpiring at the moment is unhealthy for a few different reasons.

There is no quick fix unfortunately.

We can always do with some extra support, so if you have some positive ideas please feel free to let me know.

Well looking at everyone's posts umpire's are the ones that allow us to play this game so if we didn't have them we would not be playing... So get off their backs.. Maybe if you really think about and used your brains (if you have one) when you begin the match shake hands with them so they know that you appreciate them allowing you to play, then during the game say thank you if they give you the ball to throw in, and then after the game shake hands and a thank you would be a start... I know when i play i always do that and i'll throw ina joke in broken play or a foul shot or something....

Just use your head and this is advice that Dixi gave me last season...

Good advice, we are approachable. There shouldn't be a "them and us" situation.

We're there to do a job, keep the game honest and within the spirit of the rules.

It how we do it that sets us apart.

Well i'm just saying my view as i have a brother that refs and i see what he goes through... and Its crap what some people do to him... Either play with respect to those that make the game happen or don't play at all....

I think that with the Academy Squad they should promote the attitude towards refs, that they deserve, and the respect. This would look good for all people involved including the 6ers... it wouldn't hurt the big boys to try a little respect for the refs, the same way they want respect from the fans and team mates...