Isaac
Years ago

Funny Twin Season Vision

Hopefully this will get some discussion. Boti Nagy has an article in the paper today about some possible broad changes to the ABL season. Full story and a bit more of a summary.

Adelaide 36ers assistant coach Steve Breheny has been invited to put his shared vision to the newly formed Basketball Adelaide body, a subsidiary of the new Basketball South Australia restructure.

Breheny's plan would mean Forestville and Sturt's efforts at last week's Australian Basketball Association's national finals would be the state's last, with an SA senior state team instead touring the U.S. to play college opposition.
Here are what seem to be the key points:

- Summer season runs midweek during the NBL season. All (men's) games played at the Dome or Wayville. No (W)NBL players or imports in the summer season.

- the State Championship season would run for 12 weeks between April and July. Top five playoffs, best of three grand final series instead of the one game decider.

- 10 teams, 18-game season (12 Wednesday nights, 6 Saturdays) all at the Dome or Wayville. Each team plays the others twice.

- 36ers/Lightning players and imports could commit to the full, shorter season. Imports might be affordable considering the timeline.

- At 16 weeks (inc playoffs), the winter season would be comparable to a WNBA or NZ NBL season.

Boti likes it:
A condensed, high quality domestic season with import players -- the 36ers in 1985 recruited a young man named Mark Davis from South Adelaide's domestic team -- has merit on a number of levels.
Thoughts?

How would revenue sharing work for clubs no longer getting takings from stadia/bar/canteen on ABL nights? Would there be a restriction on imports per team?

Sounds like it's worth trying to me, though I'd rather see games at Wayville than the Dome, but that's just because that and Pasadena are more convenient for me - venue proximity is a reasonable part of my decisions of whether or not to attend:

- venue proximity
- entertainment
- personal association (e.g., family or friends playing)
- cost (negligible with ABL)
- scheduling (whether it clashes with other events)

Topic #8517 | Report this topic


paulo  
Years ago

no way

Reply #95126 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Decision makers considering playing all games at one or two venues should consider what happened to local hockey clubs when all state league matches were played at Gepps Cross. Establishing ownership of ABL teams by ordinary club members is hard enough now without removing the team to a world of their own

Reply #95129 | Report this post


Sector 7G  
Years ago

The nice thing about the proposal is that it has VISION. It sees the problems, the opportunities, and the potential downsides, and comes up with an alternative that is based on need.
It'll work.
In the past we've had decisionbs made by a committee that are based on petty jealousy, protectionism, greed, spite etc etc - certainly not the best interests of the game.
Now... what's next? The Junior Program?

Reply #95130 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

paulo, reasons you're against it? Change in season length, change in game nights, change in locations?

Reply #95131 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I don't like the idea of midweek games. It is difficult to get out during the week particularly if kids also wish to go. Have a look at the crowds on a Saturday night and see how many are kids playing junior basketball at the club.

Reply #95133 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I for one would like to have a social life other then basketball on a saturday night! I think its a good idea...and it would make those 6 games that are played on the saturday even bigger... But I guess if you want to get more families with kids out they would either have to be early games ie. 6 - 6.30 tip off or cut out all the crap like the way too long warm ups - especially in the half time break.

Reply #95134 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Good idea - there is still the 6 Saturday night games for those that enjoy the weekends. Problem will be enforcing the salary cap. There are a lt of clubs struggling to make ends meet with only 2 or 3 in a reasonable financial position. If there salary cap was not enforced or removed the the competition would be dominated by 2 or 3 teams every year. Maybe they need to look at ways to keep the comp even.

Reply #95136 | Report this post


Taco Boy  
Years ago

The 'Vision' has some good ideas, and the possibility of regulary seeing the local NBL and WNBL playing in the local leagues is a great thing, but the centralising of midweek games out of the dome or Wayville, isn't in my opinion a good idea.

Our club promotes home ABL well and these Saturday night games are well supported by a regularly large crowd. My entire family attend all Saturday night home games and by moving them to midweek at the dome, will only mean that we won't be able to go. Not just me but i would assume alot of other families would find themselves in the same situation.

With the current restructuring occuring , surely we should be trying to take the game to the people, not moving it further away from them.

Reply #95137 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

The issue here on scheduling is what is the ABA and its purpose. If it's to provide a path way for players to develop to the next level etc then schedule the games when it suits them. (but if they had a desire to improve and be the best they can then I would have thought the lack of a social night on a Saturday for a third of the year is not an issue). If the ABA is an entertainment business the you need to look at when people can attend. In this case I think Saturday's are the go. I don't buy season 36ers tickets as I can't get to midweek games - I know others who are in the same situation.

Reply #95139 | Report this post


janx  
Years ago

It strengthens competition (more nbl players and imports), allows for saturday AND midweek games (if people want to have a look), more condensed season is better, gives the chance for summer season league to continue to exist (as happens now), easier for nbl scouts to see all players at a single location. It looks GREAT.

It would be good to somehow still have some saturday night games in the local stadiums.

Reply #95142 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Im fine with it... but you cant cut out the local venues.

Not only from a supporter point of view... but all the volunteers who give their time to the club, where would they go?

Local sporting clubs arent just about the sport itself, a lot of people benefit from the socialising and giving their time to the club.

Reply #95143 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

wasnt yogee telling us that we were working the volunteers too hard ?

Reply #95144 | Report this post


yogee  
Years ago

Umm, no I never said that.

I asked how can you expect club volunteers to give up weeknights, when they have to work, and somehow get to The Dome for a mid week game.

From a stats point of view, at the moment, we dont do summer league, so no real difference to us. However, as they are pushing for a more "professional" summer league as well, I can see the requirement for stats staff coming in to it.

I will admit I have never really been involved with the summer league, and therefore dont know the in's and outs. However, if they propose a 630 start at The Dome, what about the poor club volunteers (STOP, etc) who have to officiate that game. Assuming they finish at 5pm in the City, they somehow have to get home, and then get to the Dome by 6pm, for a 630 finish. The obvious answer would be that they drive to work, which would significantly add costs to them (fuel, parking etc).

I am not against the idea at all, please dont take it that way, just there are considerations that would need to be made in regards to the support staff that are required to run an ABL standard game.

It may be that they keep summer league the more "informal" way they do at the moment, where stats, STOP etc arent required, and they do the scoretable with mums, dads, girl/boyfriends etc...

Reply #95148 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Yogee

STOP IMO was stronger when the comp was on a week night.

getting to games etc wasn't a problem

for all you who complain about refs it would improve the refs stop spreading too few to far.

Reply #95149 | Report this post


lockstock  
Years ago

I agree you can't cut out the local venues. Not only will it diminish crowd numbers, but it will gievan advantage to those teams that live close to those venues, train at those venues, and have played at those venues over the years (think of the disadvantage to eastern, southern, south, centrals). Not to mention the juniors in their club's senior side who have done all of the above in abundance over the years.
Sure, some people might say home court advantage doesn't operate at this level, but I would disagree. You only have to look at the win/loss ratio of a lot of teams home compared to away over the years and that will backup that teams have a home court advantage.
The idea is good IMO, but keep the local stadiums going.

Reply #95150 | Report this post


sween  
Years ago

Friday and Saturday night games would work better financially for clubs because game supporters have some the opportunity to be sociable. The evinings normal finish time allows those who wish to "hit the town" plenty of time.

I think its important that each participating club has a supporter base close to their region. Therefore restricting games to just two centres will not work.

Individual clubs need to fill their stadium to create an atmosphere for a high standard competition. So comfort, facilities and capacity are issues that need to be addressed e.g. Generally the dome is too large for a normal ABL match but at a minimum, 300 patrons should be able to see an ABL game in relative comfort.
Name players can attracted to a high standard safe "off season" NBL and WNBL comp because -

The need to prove, show or maintain their skill level for national comps etc.

travel is minimised.

Across the board Adelaide as a centre can provide a reasonable level of facilities comparitively cheaply.

To engender a strong and safe and even competition, referees & referee selectors have to play their part by having National level and top local rated refs and officials available at all times.

Thugs should not be tolerated (judiciary system!) nor should teams that are not competitive at the level (ratings system).

ABL players should also be encouraged to have some association with their clubs junior program. If juniors can identify with the clubs best, they are more likely to support the ABL team as spectators. This drives their parents and friends and increases supporter and member base, thus contributing to the revenue base.

Money I here? Clubs shoul be vigilent. Try to concentrate on the less finacial benefits including care and attention. What the club can do to further the career - coaching, contacts etc.

Reply #95152 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Why not have the best of both worlds?

Have games in central stadia on weeknights, staffed by a core of volunteers from all clubs (the hard core if you like) and also weekend games at local clubs staffed by club volunteers (some of whom will also do midweek).

In a 22 round season, some clubs may want their full 11 home games, let them keep them. Others may want only a few (say 4 or 5), let them have this. They would play fewer midweeks that those clubs that want 11 home games.

Everybody wins!

Reply #95154 | Report this post


BC  
Years ago

If we pull out of ABA do we think some of the National players may move interstate and play in a ABA competition. So we lose them and then what happens to our competition as in how do clubs draw the crowds? Just a thought. I don't know if this would happen but it could weaken our comp.

Reply #95155 | Report this post


Kent Brockman  
Years ago

Bring back the Buffaloes and Wednesday night ABL games.

Run the Buffaloes in the SEABL so that young players get the experience of playing agianst tough competition week in week out.

Give them 2 Imports to learn of and spearhead the team and watch the quality of young players improve rapidly.

When the Buffaloes were a force many of the list got runs with NBL teams due to the exposure that they got.

Plus basketball fans get to see the interstate players first hand. Have the Buffaloes host games at different stadiums on weekend to offset the lost revenue of the local ABA games.

Those that experienced the Buffaloes, Norwood and Woodville SEABL teams would acknowlede this was quite a great time to follow basketball with high quality games on every weekend.

Reply #95164 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Kent,

I hope you are suggesting that the 36ers pay for the Buffaloes? Becasue it costs about $100K to run the team.

Reply #95169 | Report this post


yogee  
Years ago

Another point as I think....one of the points people seem to claim as a benefit is increased spectators.

How would have a Tigers v Centrals Wwednesday night 630 (or even 7pm) game at The Dome increase spectators for these teams? Would their fans, who would live locally bother to travel? Yes, some would, but I cant see how a lot would. And we are talking ABL, it's not like you would have a lot of fans of other clubs coming to watch 2 teams they dont support.

Reply #95170 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Agree Yogee.

And I think the SANFL should play all of their games on days when they don't clash with the crows or power at AAMI stadium, becasue that would be better for the Crows and Power.

If the 36ers want to shell out money to the local clubs for the loss of revenue as well as paying for their imports to stay in town year round then sure!

Reply #95172 | Report this post


BC  
Years ago

The other thing with national league players now is. When they play for teams interstate they have to be cleared to that team and then cleared back to the ABL clubs. We didn't have that here because the clubs owned the 36ers and the Lightning. Now that the clubs don't own them any more shouldn't the same thing apply? That these players should be cleared both ways as the BA rules state. I say BA as both national leagues as well as ABA is sanctioned by BA and that is what is written in those bylaws for the codes.

Reply #95175 | Report this post


Kent Brockman  
Years ago

start with the 40k that BASA puts into the Academy as a start plus now that "BASA" does not need to prop up the lightning or the sixers then money to run the squad would not be an issue.

Reply #95176 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Kent,

What benefit would there be in it for the clubs?

Players would not be allowed to play in both if we are in a comp sanctioned by BA becasue the rules have changed in the last 10 years since the ABA was set up.

And BASA only put $20k per year into the academy. Where does the extra money come from. BASA needs to build some stadiums for Norwood and Woodville. They also need to improve and develop M/Vale and Hillcrest.

Reply #95177 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

Not necessarily for or against the SEABL idea, but isn't there $40k that's previously been put up for entry into the ABA each year? It was earmarked in this vision for US trips, but could be used elsewhere?

I think something should be done to encourage college, Euro or Asian teams to tour as well.

Reply #95178 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

why can't MVP sport start a buffaloes team

Reply #95179 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Sure we should have a trip to the US. Or a SEABL team.

I mean it's not like basketball in this state just we bankrupt becasue we were running National League programs that lost money every year or anything. We Should definatley start up another program which will lose $100K per year rather than spend that money on building and upgrading staiums which turn a profit. (insert sarcasm here)

I am glad that it will never happen.

Reply #95182 | Report this post


lockstock  
Years ago

$100K would be a fairly generous figure to run that sort of team surely. I would think it would be a considerable amount more than that.

Reply #95185 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Each trip interstate costs about $10 - 15K including flights and accomidation and transport. Remember you are also going to Ballarat, Bendigo and Mildura. Depending on where it is.

You go to Melbourne 2-3 times and Canberra once plus a trip to Brisbane. Plus court hire for trainings, uniforms etc...

Reply #95188 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Sorry,

And a trip to Tasmania.

Reply #95189 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I don't mind the concept. no one makes money now with the Home & Away.

I would strongly disagree with a U.S trip. I ask 'why'. Spending $40,000 to play 15 games is too rich for me. What really would be the benefit? I have toured a number of times and it costs too much, players treat it like one big party and coaches just go for the free holiday.

Spend $10,000 and play interstate or play in Malaysia, Asian countries etc. Thats our market nowadays not the U.S.

Reply #95196 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Or spend the $10 000 on improving a regonalised competition which generates income for future stadium developments.

Reply #95198 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Hate the idea of a state mens team playing in the US. Australian Basketball should all be about keeping Australian talent in Australia for as long as possible.

Perhaps a suggestion... There is enough quality players in our league to make at least one fantastic mens team (maybe two - North and South) and at least one fantastic womens team to compete in the ABL during the winter. They can showcase there talent with home games at the Dome or Wayville or Maybe even sometimes Mt Barker and Port Lincoln or wherever. Maybe as a lead up to these ABL games we can have a state league game played before hand to make a night of it and bring in the crowd. Our State league can be everything that our current ABL is now outside of the above arrangements. Midweek, one stadium, several - it really wouldn't matter.

Watch our SA teams kick butt at National Finals time then. Might give everyone from State League the feel of being in a true National Comp (apart from the NBL for those who are luck enough). The sixers can use North and South Adelaide mens teams as a feeder for development and possibly hold onto the Ingles and so on... and the Womens can be a developer for the Lightning.

Perhaps speeking to owners of NBL/WNBL teams about contributing to cost as they end up benefiting.

Better to for sponsorship dollars all round and something this state could be proud of.

Reply #95231 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

i think the idea has some merits....but why not make it 12 saturday games, and 6 wednesday nights...i think we should keep focussing on the local stadiums....as i agree with a numbe rof the posts that say less junios will go if the games are at dome or wayville.....please avoid the dome, playing at the dome is the lowlight of my season, wayville and pasadena would be much better...IMO

Reply #95239 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

SA Has a SEABL team - Mt Gambier, it would be great if that got supported by the whole state - perhaps Sixers could send players to play with Pioneers so they could gain experience in playing in a better competition than Central Conference?. It seems that Basketball in SA seems to stop at the Freeway as far as Adelaide is concerned.

Reply #95241 | Report this post


Dribbler  
Years ago

If there were two imports per team, it may cut out forty up and coming young local players. Reveue would be a big issue for clubs (losses via no canteen/barbeque/raffles). Maybe stadia could be rotated from week to week.

Reply #95242 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

What a ridiculous proposal. Playing a 12 week season, how would that help to develop our talent. What is wrong with how it is structured now? why change what is working just to suit NBL.

Under this proposal the season runs July-Sept, so NBL players would not be available for the entire 12 weeks anyway. (pre season commitments).

9 mths of pre season is a long time....

Keep it as it is but change the current season to 27 games..

Reply #95251 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I'm not sure what article you are reading 95251 but I'm pretty sure the intention is to run it from April to July. I think the main season needs to be shortened. One of the big problems is that teams all have three two week breaks due to public holidays and state champs. By doing this games can still be played midweek on those weekends.

I think the concept is fantastic. We could have the this 12 week season from April to July and then a full two round season from say September/October to February/March rather than the ridiculous summer season that we have now.

Reply #95262 | Report this post


baller  
Years ago

On the Wed night games... fine for the 36ers who dont have to work all day before playing but try working from 9am to 5.30pm and being ready to play a game. Not a fair ask of players.
U want ur Sat nights... u have the entire summer and if u rotate who plays first then u can be all done by 8.30pm every 2nd week.
Shorter season i understand to have rep players able to play the entire season, but cut it down by running more double headers. All other ABL leagues play so many more games than the SA league (play each team 3 times). This also makes teams tougher and more prepared for the National finals weekend.
This year the SEABL and Big V didn't start until April, why not just follow that tack???

As for the summer season, WNBL and NBL players are never going to be available so run it as a full season Oct/Nov-Feb for all those not playing national league so they can gear up for the ABL season properly and not be even further behind those coming off a rep season.

Reply #95268 | Report this post


lockstock  
Years ago

good point baller, the wed night games would be a struggle for people who have to work. All you want to do the day of a big game is bugger all.

Reply #95269 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I'm not sure about the import idea. I think we should maybe keep it as Aussies or Sixers only. As it is probably only a couple of teams can afford to pay the whole salary cap so these are the only ones that will be able to afford an import. I think the more even we try and keep the competition the better. We can still improve the overall standard without allowing imports.

Reply #95273 | Report this post


Ken Richardson  
Years ago

This is the perfect solution. Get back to when basketball was quality in this state. Hell.....I might even come out of retirement!

Reply #95284 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Re (#95268) Big V and SEABL started later than normal this year due venue availability due to the Commonwealth Games.

Reply #95386 | Report this post


Vadersmate  
Years ago

Leave ABL to weekends. Some say they have a social life and would like to do somthing other than basketball. For my family, our social life revolves around basketball to a huge degree.

Some may say this is pathetic (& you are certainly entitled to your opinion) but the fact is we are a family of 4 basketball nuts. NBL, WNBL, ABL, District, NBA, we love it.

I feel that going to a mid week comp would kill the already low crowd support and spell disaster for the clubs. I also think having all games under 1 roof is not a good money spinner for clubs that actually make some income from their bars & canteens.

Could you imagine the SANFL playing all its games at Footy Park Mid week? Huge stadiums with little or no crowd do nothing for a sport.

100-200 people at Hillcrest looks and sounds a whole lot better than 300-400 at the Dome.

Reply #95461 | Report this post


I go to the weekend Saturday and Sunday games and other supporters that I know of, as it is the start of our night out. I buy heaps at the bar and canteen and support my club at their stadium and also when they play away at the opposition's stadium. I will NOT attend many week night games at all, as I have heavy work commitments Mon to Fri as well as my own gym and sport commitments. This mooted change is a BAD idea for many people, especially those with sport playing sons and daughters who have mid week trainings and/or games. BASA and clubs will lose both supporters and dollars with this plan.

Playing all games at one stadium will destroy the very fabric of club culture and severely dent already club financial difficulties. Depending on the opposition and the venue will add another qualifying criteria as to whether or not I will travel to the game, compared to my reasons for going all the time now.

Maybe Mr ABC wants all the games at the Dome so he can recoup his investment and maybe others are being used and manipulated and cajoled as puppets to push "his barrow"??

Reply #95471 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

How about they try and shorten the season by maintaining the weekend games but also play 5 or 6 midweek games per team to see how it goes? They could play a midweek game either side of the three weekends they have off each year due to state champs and public holidays, that would be six extra games and would mean that there are no two week breaks for anyone.

Reply #95592 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

It is amazing what you guys in SA will do to avoid playing off against the rest of the Nation. Based on the average performances of your teams at ABA level over the past few years I'm not surprised that you are going for the "Big Fish in a Small Pond" model.

Reply #97041 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Thanks Zimmer...

Reply #97058 | Report this post




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