thomo
Years ago

Lack of Development for 16-20yrs nation wide ?

ok, with the afl draft just gone i thought it was interesting to hear the views of one of the crows recruits in particular Kurt Tippet, from QLD.

saying that basketball was his real passion but with lack of developement programs for 16yr olds to 20 yr olds was what swayed him to try his hand at football,

after hearing this i thought it would be interesting to find out just how many players came from a quality basketball background, so i emailed in general to the afl to find out how many where in this years draft,

9 of the top 50 draft picks at some stage represented there state in U18 or U16 basketball, from all states except for TAS and NT.

so with this,

A, what needs to be done nationally to keep these obviously talented players in the game.

B, what safe guards, programs should be looked at to bridge this 3-4 yr gap before nbl clubs look at them by which time they are playing afl or reserver level,


just thought i wouldd air this not to bag bsa or qld or any other states,
but to get a guage of other posters views on this.

Cheers

Topic #9564 | Report this topic


thomo  
Years ago

apologies with the grammer and spelling

Reply #108843 | Report this post


Dr Damage  
Years ago

The introduction of worlds for U/17s will have an impact. Good or bad ? It's to early to know.
The AIS will have a larger intake next year to cater, this may help.

Reply #108846 | Report this post


lockstock  
Years ago

I think the development of 16-17 years olds isn't such a problem. At that stage they are playing in Under 18s which is the elite junior competition and no doubt receiving mostly excellent instructions from some very very good coaches. I think when they hit Under 20s the individual development slows to a certain extent, except for those lucky enough to be at the AIS or in a program that caters nfor individuals to train and improve.
Of course it also comes down to how much time the player is willing to put in in their own time. But guidance is a must if they want to improve some of the finer points of the game.

Reply #108884 | Report this post


Panther  
Years ago

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Reply #108890 | Report this post


Stephen D  
Years ago

I think that the problem with the current system is that the kids from under10's or 12's play all year round.

Sports like football & soccer have a proper break.

By the tome the season starts again, the players are all fired up and raring to again.

Our kids do not have that proper break. After 6 years of solid playing & training, going through the same motions, other sports will look more attractive.

I am very surprised the amount of kids that drop out of basketball when the reach the late teens.

SA should have a thriving senior competion.

Basketball is a great sport for physical development, and if you are very good at basketball, you wll more than likely be very good at a few other sports like football.

We need to keep our young players keen and hungry for the game.

Reply #108898 | Report this post


Cultural  
Years ago

This is a very intersting age old problem which comes back I think to the way the basic seasons and state competitions are structured from domestic seasons to State Institutes like SASI then onto to the AIS.

Basketball is clearly controlled by 1 or 2 individuals or self interested groups in this state.

There are 2 clear defining factors - Football and other sports actually encourage their players to participate in sports like bball etc as it enhances their skill base and makes them better footballers. In other words they do not have a head in the sand attitude like certain bball coaches in this state do have when it comes to other sport. If they look beyond the square they would realize that there are a mountain of kids out there who are good enough, coordinated and committed to play div 1 and 2 bball but choose not too as the bball way is not flexible.

World under 17 comps, SASI etc mean nothing to most 13-14 year olds in general. Kids this age look at today - not tommorrow or 3 years down the track. I could name half a dozen kids in this state alone at the moment would walk into SASI but don't participate due to other commitments or cost of travel etc

Footy also has the benefit of being seasonal and a break of 4-5 months every year. It also has the benefit of the SANFL pumping promotional dollars into the clubs and kids - something that BSA has definately not done. To give an example my lad played both SAPSASA footy and Bball last year and what the SANFL did for those kids was way beyond belief. What did BSA do - NIL.

Footy also provides a different kind of commradarie no doubt due to the way the game is played and the numbers that participate.

Footy unlike bball is also very interested in the kids that participate in grassroots lower grade comps. Bball play low grade comps purely as a revenue raiser - and this comes accross in the standard of umps and coaches etc - all the wrong reasons.

Both are fabulous games - one prospers because the right people run it for the right reasons, the other flounders because the individuals of self centred interests running it.

Reply #108899 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Cultural,

Can your child become an Olympian playing Football? AFL is not even a truley Natonal Sport. Sure it makes huge dollars, but it is not even the primary football code in half of Australia. (population wise ie NSW and QLD)

And you are not even comparing apples with oranges, but rater fruit with vegetables.

Football has a massive television deal which trickles down into clubs. And local Football clubs have low cost venues. It doesn't take $1.5M to make a football oval like it does a basketball court.

I agree that basketball has been run into the ground by consistant poor administration from BA down to BASA and even at club level. Mainly due to clubs being organised by unpaid volunteers.

But basketball offers things that football can't offer. Can yo go and play AFL in other countries. What would you consider to be the worth of that? Can you go and represent your country? And not in some other sport calling yourself a football team. What is the worth of that?

If you don't want to be involved in basketball, then forgo those opportunities because it is only those that truely love the sport (and have the necessary physical qualities) that make it in the long run anyway.

Reply #108902 | Report this post


Cultural  
Years ago

Anon

You make some good points and I do agree, but how many can afford to go to other countries, and how many kids wish to go to the olympics. Yes some will, but MOST don't. Most want to play at the best of their ability, have fun and then they drop out due to how we run the game, mostly because they are sick of the commitment of 2-3 trainings etc.

I like you love the game.

This is the whole point - we are making it elitist and driving kids away.

Kids can play a season of footy, soccer, cricket, volleyball etc for $150 without the commitment. Throw in part time jobs, school work and it is a concern.

Some coaches where my kid plays are now starting to become flexible as they realize the better kids will walk as they get older.

Should we downplay the summer and give these better kids a break and hence others an opportunity in a higher grade ?

We have to start looking outside of the square.There is nothing better than watching talent develop. We have to find a way to keep these kids in the game without dictating - particularly with so many choices that they have these days.

Reply #108918 | Report this post


5067  
Years ago

#108902,

Players who truly love the sport wouldn't be concerned about playing it in another country or representing their country in the Olympics. They play basketball because it brings them enjoyment through being part of a team, making friendships and the opportunity to use their physical skills. Even those that don't have the 'necesssary physical qualities' (ie, the vertically challenged!) enjoy basketball.

If your offspring (or you) are playing basketball with the goal of playing for your country I'm sure they (or you) will be disappointed!

Reply #108924 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Cultural,

The problem is that you want the best of both worlds. You want the sport to run around what is best for you, rather than what is best for the sport.

You child can play basketball for fun in any of the social competition around adelaide for a low cost. And, for what ever period they want to play in the calander year.

Unley Sport for All. Church basketball in BSA Stadium. Golden Grove Rec. Adelaide hills Rec. St Clair a;; run competitions for your child.

Reply #108926 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Cultural, You are so right it is the arrogance of the Basketball Coaches at the elite area eg. state and sasi that will burn out our children. How long and how often do you have to train for state? And to be in state you must be in a club, and sometimes not ALL the times you are a member of SASI, and if you are not you are VERY limited to make the state side. So you definately have no time to at least try other sport. Basketball doesn't even cross train with other sports either, maybe they are scare you might enjoy that sport bettter. Just to give our athletics and break, everything is so serious at such a young age. Gee if you mention to some of our supposedly elite coaches that you have another commitment, look out you are dropped, ask the Under 18 state girls this year and it has happens with the boys with football, and the worst is we let them get away with it. These Egotisitical, Arrogant, Narcissitic just take control and we for our children sake keep quite, cause if anyone front them your child will be in a different sport but not by their own choice, a pity but it is what happens. Come on Basketball open your eyes.

Reply #108933 | Report this post


cultural  
Years ago

Anon

Let me assure you my lad plays div 1 bball and is very competitive and would not play social ball. He also plays district cricket and footy out at sturt so I have a fair idea on how they treat kids and what they do for them.

I like you, want to keep all kids playing bball and All I am saying is that to keep ALL kids playing our great game we have to look at what we do for them at ALL levels.

We some how have to create an environment whereby they do not want to leave. That gets back to culture, expectation, costs etc.

Everything that the new BSA were going to address - but probably never will.

Reply #108934 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Cultural,

Again, you are thinking about what is best for you kid. Not what is best for basketball.

Elite level basketball is for those kids who want to be elite level basketball. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If that means some kids will decide to miss out, then fair enough. But guys like Brad Newely and Joe Ingles have reaped the benefits of the current system and will become Olympians becasue of it.

People are saying that kids are leaving the sport. What I am saying is let those kids who want to be elite level players do that. And other kids like yours can play Social or div 3 and below when they feel like it.

It is impossible to organise a competition which suits those kids woth dreams of being Olympians with those who only wan tot play becasue they are good and enjoy it.

A/ Play elite or

B/ Play social

But dont come around asking those kids with Olympic aspiration to play in a competition which is suited to social players just because your kid wants to play footy and cricket.

Reply #108936 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Anon #108933

Conisdering that you don't even know how long state trains for, you must ben authority on it. And considering it is a bit hard. How do you think we should select and develop these players and team?

Should they have a game of scissors/paper/rock, then try and have a movie night before they go away.

Or should we take it in turns so that ever body gets a go.

Hang on, maybe they are looking for those kids who are willing to make sacrifices to be the best they can be, rather than those kids who have parents like yourself in there ears telling them it is too hard.

Reply #108939 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

And a deafening silence.

My oppologies for making sence.

anon #108936

Reply #108946 | Report this post


thomo  
Years ago

wow, didnt expect this to turn into a flame topic,

seriously thought what can be done to entice these young players to stick with bball rather then go the afl route, i know $$ is a big factor but just seems disapointing from and outsider to see roughly 20% of the top draftees comeing from high level basketball background

Reply #108952 | Report this post


LI  
Years ago

(#108936),

Not a deafening silence at all!
Not every 16/17 year old in SASI, State, or Div 1 dreams of becoming an olympian. Sure, they love basketball, they like to work hard, train hard, want to become as good as they can be, and want to represent their club/state well. They are ambitious adolescents.

But they are also aware that there are other things in life to enjoy.
The sense of missing out on these things builds up as they get older.

I think there are two groups of drop-outs at the so-called elite level
1) The ones who want to do more outside basketball but cannot combine it with elite level training (Sasi, State, Div1 at its peak get very involved).
2) The ones that suddenly realise they don't have a higher level to go to, because they are not good enough or not tall enough. Pushing themselves ridiculously hard makes no sense.

If you don't mind either of these two groups dropping out (and that is what you're suggesting), then all's fine.

If you want to keep them in the game, as is Culturals choice, then the elite level coaches will have to
1. allow them some time for a life outside of basketball
2.make sure their expectations are realistic from the start

However if you want to keep them by playing Div 3, you'll lose them anyway. They'll get bored because they are too good for that.

Reply #108954 | Report this post


cultural  
Years ago

Good discussion and points made by all - the fact of the matter as the numbers indicate are that at an elite level the other sports treat the individual much better. Sure you may get a newley or an ingles - Does that suggest a huge success rate given the number of kids that play and participate in a so called elite environment - perhaps population comes into it as well ?

You may say well go play other sports - that is not the answer because the game will just keep losing talented kids - aand when the talent leaves the standard drops and its down hill. Some one needs to address the system and have a look at what is happening in this state.

Reply #108960 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Maybe its time to realize basketball is not an elite sport just a minor amateur sport where players want to be elite.
Where does bill or betty smith with ability to burn end up at 20 after SASI has ended and mum and dad have just finished paying off the US trip?
Answer: senior women or senior men, that they would have played in irrespective of SASI involvement.
However, a miniscule percentage go to the next level, NBL or WNBL and or Australian selection. Did they benefit from SASI involvement: absolutely!
Did the kids who did not make or take the next step benefit: I'd say yes on many different levels and not the least is they had the opportunity to make it and that can not be understated.
Most of the kids at SASI today are eons better than the basketballers of 25 years ago and dont lose sight of that.
I played two spots at a higher level , one in winter and the other in summer and they complimented each other but the world has moved on.
It is almost impossible to play two sports at the elite level today and if you are 14 or 15 years of age you better choose quickly. You could argue that Netball and basketball do compliment each other but conflict still would arise and choices still need to be made.
IMO you need to be switched on and committed to one sport to make it to the top level of that sport and if you just love sport and want to play as high as you can in as many as possible I think you should be able to do it but as a coach I would question if you would go the extra mile for the team and I would tend to go for a player with eyes and heart only for my sport because you are the player I want representing Australia, 100 percent committed.

Reply #108966 | Report this post


Shaun Jennings  
Years ago

Having played junior Div 1 and ABL and been involved in SASI and state squads, I can say that the time involved is extremely intensive. During year 12 I was playing and training 16 times a week, but my goal then was to be able to play in the quality mens league of that time. That league isn't there now. These so-called drop-outs who should play div 3 or social should have the opportunity to play in a quality league. Then and only then will the "elite" make it to NBL and higher. As a side point, IMO all senior games should be brought forward at least 1 hour to allow juniors to watch without staying up past 10:30pm to see the finish of a game thereby encouraging them to pursue that path. As a current div 1 coach, if my boys want to do something other than basketball and there is the occasional conflict, I will live with it as there is plenty more to life than basketball. Kids should be allowed to play several sports during high school to determine which they will have the best opportunities through. But at the end of the day, it is up to the kids what they choose. All we can do is provide them with the opptunities.

Reply #108971 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Cultural

Are you saying that all the kids in the Sturt Football Club U17's are going to play league.

I would say not! Just like in basketball there are not enough spots in their senior league team for all of the players that play juniors. Those players who are willing to work harder and do more training will maintain their spots with those who would be looking to play other sports would not make the cut.

So these kids will move off into other sports, or other amatuer clubs. Which only train once or twice per week and don't do a large pre-season of weights, and play a second sport. Just like I am suggesting kids who don't want to be elite basketball players should.

So the stats don't say anything about how basketball treats it's playes. But rather that the same choice only happens earlier becasue in basketball elite level players need to be capable of playing in international tournaments or good enough to make the AIS by the age of 16/17.

Shaun,

What if the conflict was that they wanted to play a sport on friday night when their games for you were on friday night for 6 months of the year.(ie Volleyball) Would you let them play only when they wanted too when another kid was willing to play all year.

Reply #109012 | Report this post


Vadersmate  
Years ago

We all hear of other sports cross training with basketball to increase skills. Why then dosnt Bball cross train with other sports?

The answer may be that Bball is a very skillful game in itself that covers most skills from other sports. My daughter plays Div 1 Bball at a junoir level. She also plays school netball, volleyball and does athletics.

The athletics does help her on a Bball court, but as far as netball & volley ball are concerned, bball skills contribute to them, not the other way around. Yes BA & BSA can improve our game at a state & local level, no dought; however if the grass is greener on the other side, open the gate and go have a chew.

As far as Bball coaches scoffing at my daughter playing other sports, it just does not happen; although I must say in the past when the sporting commitments have clashed, Bball has always come out on top.

Reply #109035 | Report this post


cultural  
Years ago

109012

I am not saying all u17 kids will play league footy. Did not even imply that.

All I am quite simply saying is that in this day and age we need to be more flexible with multi talented kids. Not mentioning names but in under 16's at the moment there are 4 div 1 kids from various clubs (very good 2nd year players at that) that are tossing up between various sports. You don't have to be einstein to think 2 of them would be state players this year. All from the top 4 clubs.

Ask ourselves why ? That is what we have to find the answer too and that is the only point I make - We should be keeping these fine kids.

Nothing more , nothing less

Reply #109050 | Report this post


open mind  
Years ago

Vadersmate

you may very well be surprised but volleyball helps agility, football helps toughness, endurance and cricket helps reflexes. These are just some benefits. Granted BBall helps the other sports too. Bball though is a more individualistic self centred game played in a confined space and yes it is definately more skillful.

Reply #109051 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

LI,

I think you have hit the nial on the head with #2.

Most players work out that they do not have the physical size nor ability to play basketetball as the elite level, then move of into other endeavors.

And unfortunatley that consists of about 95% of all the players currently playing. A big difference between basketball and football is that size is far more necessary in basketball than football.

thomo,

I think you might find that those guys drafted stoped playing basketball because they didn't grow enough to make it. You can teach a big kid to dribble and shoot, but you can't teach a short kid how to grow.

Reply #109052 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Cultural,

What I am saying is that IMHO these kids will not go on to the elite level of basketball unless they are willing to put in as much time and effort as kids in Melbourne, NSW, QLD.

But some kid who right now is not as good as these 4 kids, but is playing div 2 or even div 3 will put in the time and effort and will pass themin ability by the time they reach U18's.

Scott Ninnis, Jason Williams, Paul Rogers, Matt Illman all were average U16 players who would not have been ranked close to State level in U16's.

All played NBL becasue they were willing to put in the time and effort.

Again, kids who want to play multiple sports can do so. But don't expect the elite level of competition to revolve around kids who are not committed full time to elite level basketball.

PS Plenty of kids have choosen to not play football up until they turn 19 and made it at a high level. Not 1 person has gone the other way.

Your comparing Fruit and Vegetables!

Reply #109054 | Report this post


Vadersmate  
Years ago

Open mind; I have to disagree on a few points.

I was talking about my daughter & womens Bball so football & cricket have never come into the equation for us.

As far as agility goes on a volley ball court, they tend to stand in one place and rotate spots every now and then; given the blocking in volley ball is close to blocking in Bball, however I tend to think that you need more agility to play Bball, combined with speed and combined with passing & shooting skills.

My daughter and most in her team have proven that good Bballers generally make good school netballers; however the reverse is not the case. There may be exceptions to this, but it is not the norm for a good school netballer to be a great Bballer.

Sorry, Bball for skill, speed and agility by a country mile.

Reply #109068 | Report this post


5067  
Years ago

#109052,

Agreed, you can teach a big kid to dribble and shoot and you can't teach a short kid to grow.

Unfortunately, in basketball selection circles, the distinction between tall and short is made way too early in a kids career. I've seen instances of tall kids with inferior skills being put in higher div's than the smaller but more talented kids in their age group. This is no doubt on the pretence that their skills will be improved to the same or better level than the shorter kid through better coaching and competition.

The shorter (and more talented) kid eventually gets pissed off with this process as in the lower divs he receives inferior coaching and plays against inferior players so they switch to footy (or soccer, or tennis, or tiddleywinks).

If only the original basketball club was aware that by the time the player reaches 16 (or 17, or 18) they're six inches taller than the less skilled but taller players of a few years ago. And despite the fact they haven't played basketball for the last 3 or 4 years, due to the switch to their new sport, they're still a better basketballer than the 'taller' kids who got the higher grading.

Reply #109071 | Report this post


open mind  
Years ago

109054

you make a great point in the kids that are in div 2 and 3 and work hard may make it through dedication - and good on em and fantastic if they do get the reward they deserve. The point is though we have to be flexible to enable these other kids to work just as hard as well within the confines of the programs. - Then imagine how much better the comps and the standard would become.

Every good kid we lose from our great game is step backwards.

Kids may work hard etc, but when all is said and done look at all the really good junior players that progress and they play on instinct and the majority are bball savvy and know what to do and most importantly when to do it.

That you cannot teach a kid in any sport.

Great topic though and good points by all

Reply #109073 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Junior b/ball stadiums are full of a lot of manufactured talent - been in U10's since 7-8 years old. Some will be b/ball savvy but not many, putting it bluntly they are manufactured players - I see a lack of natural talent being developed - eg kids that come late to the sport and have the savvy and are overlooked because of kids that have been there since U10's - can't compete with 1st in best dressed so to speak and the parents and history that come with them.

Most kids coming late to this sport don't have any chance in being looked at and developed. So they may as well go and play football. - As there is no programme for kids with potential in B/Ball - it seems that you have to have the right height, skills & fitness NOW not in 4 years when you might be 6'4" but now when you are 5' nothing. And when they are 6'4" OR 6'6" the kid has already carved out a nice career in footy or whatever other sport they choose because some Footy Coach etc. could spot natural ability and talent and the kid is lost to b/ball 4 ever

Reply #109103 | Report this post


thomo  
Years ago

thanks for your input people, i how have a better grasp on it, for someone who doesnt come from a bb background

Reply #109107 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

109103 Anonymous,

You have missed the boat. I agree with your concept but shouldn't Div 3 down be the program for kids with potential. Alot of clubs run programs for kids in lower divisions that are going to develop.

What exactly are you asking for, or are you just making a point without actually making a point?

Reply #109110 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Point is this - At our Club most of the better Coaches only want to coach Div 1 or Div 2. It is a cold hard fact. So if you are in div 3 or below and have a natural ability for the game you will be overlooked - development programme is nowhere the same for Div 3 or lower - Kids aren't really looked at - and the Coaches who coach Div 3 or lower, generally are Mum or Dad coaches - and have never played the game. Kids who have been in Div 1 since U10 drop out at U16's or U18's because they havent continued to grow and want to try a different sport - kids in Div 3 or lower are fed-up with being overlooked for whatever reason by the time they reach u16's and go and play something else.

Reply #109122 | Report this post


Anon  
Years ago

Perhaps the Clubs should look at implementing "Development squads" from U12 or U14's" for the kids that do show potential and need extra work because of coming late to the sport, or being late developers - It should be kept to 2nd year Div 2's and lower - Seeing that second year Div 2 kids are generally overlooked as well - Choose kids that are willing to put in the hard yards with parents that will support a programme like this. Get the Div 1 Coach to run it or someone of the same ilk within your Club. A couple of years of running something like this and you may be surprised at what it produces. I bet most of the parents would pay for it as well!

Reply #109123 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Anonomous,

Therefore by your reconing we have 0 players making it through to senior basketball.

Last I looked most clubs have at least 3 senior teams.

People drop out because there are limited opportunities at senior level for the number of players clubs are producing.

Reply #109125 | Report this post


Anon  
Years ago

Well thats a damn shame - perhaps the powers that be should do something to fix it - because in reading this thread it sounds like I should advise my child to go and play football and cricket now and just play social b/ball as there seems to be no incentive to do your best in this sport unless you are at Div 1 level

Reply #109137 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

#137
Surely the point of sport is always doing your best irrespective of what Div you play. Desperately wanting to win opposed to winning being the desired head set.
Any kid in Div 3 to Div X needs to have the inner strength to continue and succeed that comes from within them, not you, and most Div 1 coaches know the strengths and weaknesses of all the kids in their age group because it's in their interset to know.
Realisticly if a player is around 13 or 15 for the girls and 15 to 18 for the boys and they have not made the top squad they probably are not good enough. Talent and ability
is apparent fairly early and taking height out of the equation for a moment(giants only need to be able to scratch themselves)if it hasnt surfaced by these ages generally they're in the right Div despite what mums and dads think.
You can sometimes get a distorted view of how good your child is watching a fast break country game or Div 3 game where a half decent player can dominate because the opposition/class is quite different to Div 1 games.
Development opportunities are everywhere, most commercial,ie individuals from senior players/coaches etc and if you believe your child has the mojo , I strongly suggest you take them. Alternatively or in the first instance, talk to your JDO and see if the club can help out with some extra coaching, one on one or the like. Buy good quality coaching tapes from Dukes (they offer defence ,offense Boys/Girls etc). Get your child to Buddy up with a div 1 player in your age group and ask for some advice /help.
Be proactive and dont blame a lack of development opportunities for where your child presently plays.
Take your child to SASI trainings and watch!
Take your child to Div 1 trainings and watch.
Take your child to 36ers and lightning games to learn.
Buy them basketball books.
If you dont have the time and I dont blame you , who does- maybe you can see development of players is not just an external issue and that a huge price is placed upon everyone in the development of young talented players.

Reply #109141 | Report this post


Shaun Jennings  
Years ago

Anon 109012, that's an extreme case. Please reread the post as I said the occasional conflict can be dealt with.

Reply #109288 | Report this post




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