Anonymous
Years ago

Sat Morning Games Cancelled except Dome, Starplex

Email just sent by Paul Arnott:


Good afternoon all,

Basketball SA has made the decision to cancel all junior district games on Saturday, December 9, except those at the Dome and Starplex, which are air conditioned.

This decision hasn't been taken lightly. We are aware that different stadiums have different conditions, and that the start time of games is a factor too, however given the fact that stadiums will have little opportunity to cool down from today's hot temperatures, and that Saturday's participants are generally younger, this decision has been made in the interests of safety.

No decision has been made on if or when to reschedule these games. That decision will be made during the week.

As per a previous memo, in Friday night's games, timing will be modified to allow referees to call an extra time out each quarter, and an extra minute's break at quarter, half, and three quarter time.

Please distribute this message to as wide an audience as possible. It will also appear on the SportingPulse junior news section shortly.

Regards,
Paul

Paul Arnott
Competitions Manager
Basketball SA

Topic #9659 | Report this topic


Anonymous  
Years ago

Well done Paul. I'd have gone one step further and called tonights off too.

Reply #110073 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I'd have gone 2 steps further, called of all of this weekends games on Wednesday when it was obvious that both nights was going to be too hot on the same weekend that School Nationals is on.

Reply #110088 | Report this post


seen it all  
Years ago

You're damned if you, damned if you don't....
I agree with everyone above.

Reply #110093 | Report this post


Ridiculous  
Years ago

Don't be silly, that would've made too much sense!

Just hit 40 outside, apparently. I wonder how hot it would be inside the basketball sheds? And how much will it cool down by 6pm?

Very little, I'd imagine. But hey, feel free to drive all across town because it *might* be deemed safe to play at your stadium tonight.

But of course, the "Stadium Manager" can make that decision for EACH stadium, even if we live in an age of "Area Managers" whereby one person is responsible for multiple stadiums. And guess where they'll be tonight? Not at a stadium near you, I'm sure.

So who makes the decision tonight, Paul? If we rock up to a stadium where the temperature is in the mid-40's (and believe me, that will be the case), who calls it off? Or do the kids suffer through it?

The policy itself is ridiculous, and the lack of proactivity is appaling.

Reply #110097 | Report this post


Nose Nuggets  
Years ago

Ridiculous, games tonight are being played with extra time outs and extra time between quarters. The way you're carrying on we might well cancel any game from December to February as it's summer and it might have a 40 degree day some in there. Get a grip

Reply #110104 | Report this post


The Journo  
Years ago

The kids that play in the teams aren't complaining whether its too hot or not, I bet they will still be running around at home.

Its the parents issue, not the kids, let them play!

Reply #110105 | Report this post


Ridiculous  
Years ago

You can have all the extra minute breaks you like, it's still going to be too hot to play tonight.

And it was forecast to be this way, for at least a few days leading up.

If you make a simple rule (IE - "if it's predicted to be over X (36 or 38, whichever you like) degrees according to Y (Advertiser, previous night's TV news - whatever), then games will be cancelled") then these situations won't arise, will they?

No arguments, no "is it on?", no driving to a game only to be told it's too hot.

But that's too difficult for the donks at BSA. They make a policy that passes to buck to someone to make a judgement call, when that person won't even be at the stadiums.

I tell you - if the policy were similar to the one outlined above, there'd be far less complaints. At least then everyone would be able to easily identify if games were to go ahead or not.

And if anyone complained, you could easily point to the policy & show them why games were on or off. As it is, if it gets challenged this evening that perhaps a certain stadium may be dangerously hot, who do people get pointed to? The stadium manger who knocked off at 5pm?

Reply #110109 | Report this post


Nose Nuggets  
Years ago

I agree, Being a parent I know my son won't be happy about not playing tomorrow.

But as long as the parents a comfortable thats all that matters hey......

Who thought its sport for the kids not their parents

Reply #110110 | Report this post


Ridiculous  
Years ago

Who also thought kids were the best judge of when to stop? Whose duty is it to ensure they play in a safe environment? Or are they supposed to say "oh wait, playing in 40+ degree heat may not be safe, I'm going to skip tonight's game".

Would you really advise your 10 (or 12, 14 or 16) year old kid to go run around for an hour in a stadium when it's a 40 degree day & the stadium is sure to be hotter than that? Really?

Kids will keep doing something until someone tells them to stop, and that's why it shouldn't be the kids decision!

Reply #110114 | Report this post


SomeOneElse  
Years ago

Cricketers dont complain...

Reply #110115 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Any other sports allow kids to participate in these conditions? I don't think so.

Reply #110117 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Nose Nuggets, The game is for kids and we are adults who need to protect them. In all aspects of society rules are in place about excessive heat. That is in schools and work places. You need to examine your motives because as far as Im concerned this is a safety issue and one that will end up in court when it did not have to just because people like you think the whole worlds gone soft.

Reply #110118 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Someone else,
I will be playing(cricket) tomorrow unless the temp is forecast at 40 or above Sat am. There are, as you can see safety rules in cricket for all grades and Basketball needs to catch up.

Reply #110119 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

With this hot weather policy can Coaches forfeit the game because it is too hot without penalty? Especially if they only have 5 players? does anyone know the correct answer to this? in relation to games tonight in the TIN SHEDS

Reply #110126 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

what about tonight low of 28 tonight which will be about 38 at the tin shed at hillcrest why are friday night games still on ?????????? maybe the money

Reply #110127 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Cricket is a lot of standing around and doing nothing. B/Ball is a high energy output sport with not much of a break - how can you even compare the 2 - especially when we are talking about kids playing tonight in tin sheds that are like saunas

Reply #110128 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

#126
The answer my friend is blowin the wind. you can forfeit but thats a 20 point loss. Common sense runs second to ambiguous policy and every stadium has different sets of standards and is solely at the discretion of the stadium manager

Reply #110129 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

#128
Have you ever bowled or batted for any length of time in the heat?
Cricket is cancelled when over 40 degrees and basketball needs to cancelled over 38 degrees where no air cons are used. End of story.

Reply #110130 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

A netball competition I play in rules that if it is over 36 degrees at 6pm - as heard on Mix 102.3 - then games are cancelled.

It appears to work there, why can't it work here? But maybe make the time a little earlier, say 5pm?

Reply #110131 | Report this post


Melvin Corpuscle  
Years ago

Hey, look we can solve this. Why don't we play in shorts and singlets in stead of long pants ? oh, wait. that already happens. Why don't we have frequent breaks for rephydration - oh, damn, we already do that too ! Maybe we should make games about an hour long instead of all day - ... oh wait, we already do that too. How bout with proper nutrition and hydration, any kid should be able to play a full game ... oh wait, that would mean responsible parenting. Sorry.

Reply #110143 | Report this post


SomeOneElse  
Years ago

That was my point when i mentioned the cricket thing, they are out there all day, and we only compete for an hour, with subs in most situations, im playing tonight in one of the tin sheds and im still looking forward to it!!

Reply #110153 | Report this post


Melvin Corpuscle  
Years ago

I want every game to be under these conditions. I want custom build stadia, where we can keep it a Darwinesque 35 degrees plus, and at least 60% humidity ... awesome.

Reply #110156 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

current temp according to Bureau of Meteorology is 37C at 7:35

Reply #110176 | Report this post


Eagle  
Years ago

Just came back from Hillcrest where it was cooler outside than in. Unfortunately only had 5 players and the umpires did who had been instructed by the UIC to call extra drink breaks did not do so.Our team was well beaten, so no sour grapes, but the only coach to call a time out during the game was ours, the Forestville coach.Not a very safe environment for kids to be playing sport. BASA needs to have a long,hard look at the hot weather policy if no one polices it as per today's instructions by Paul A.

Reply #110210 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

how about the fact that from 5.30pm till 7.30pm the side door was closed because the hot air coming in upset some people.why did the refs not call time outs.Maybe one day Paul A and bsa get reel and produce a heat policy that deals with all of the problems that are out there. Or maybe we need some one who can do the job! at the mowment its a joke!!!!!

Reply #110218 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

lights are also a requirement for bball, pity about 2/3rds of the courts at the port after 9pm

Reply #110227 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

The 4 airconditioned courts at Starplex had only 2 games last night.

I suppose if there had been enough notice 20-30 games could have been rescheduled.

Reply #110249 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Eagle, I also played at hillcrest last night and had no problem with the temp. We had an earlyish game and IMO it wasn't to bad. The Arena in Geelong was alot worse on one of the days and it was still barable so i think some people have blown this out of proportion.

Reply #110264 | Report this post


Eagle  
Years ago

don't wish to be argumentative but my issue was that our team had only 5 players and only timeouts called were from our coach. I spoke to the UIC and he was annoyed that his directions had not been followed re extra timeouts etc.

Reply #110270 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Wayville was hot. My children were not happy playing the earlier games. Not many extra time outs were called by umps. Later we were at Morphett Vale and it was cooler at their stadium. The umpires called extra timeouts without anyone requesting it. IMO games at Wayville should of been cancelled.

Reply #110278 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Whats it like in the Dome ? My son has three hours ( two one and a half sessions ) of training for country state on saturday.

Reply #110287 | Report this post


Anon-e-mouse  
Years ago

Dome is air-conditioned

Reply #110294 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

True its air conditioned but its rarely on. And its by far the coldest stadium in winter.

Reply #110301 | Report this post


Anon-e-mouse  
Years ago

It was on this morning for Junio games. Surely they would have left it on in this heat!

Reply #110302 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I hope so, i havnt travelled with him and his mother.

But if he got too stressed, i'd pull him off. Surely the airconditioners would be left on ??

Reply #110306 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

It isnt called summer season for nothing people ;)

Reply #110312 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

301 Wayville without a doubt feels the extremes of conditions more so then any other venue. As soon as you walk through the foyer into the main stadium you're hit with either extreme cold or extreme heat.

(Trust me being there at 8am on a cold day there is not way any other venue is colder, and I've been to all of them.)

Also the shocking conditions Yogee mentioned in the heat are completely accurate, for a new venue you'd think it would be air conditioned or be built to deal with the conditions.

Reply #110324 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

A simple over 38 degrees and its off as soon as possible please. Everone then knows where they stand instead of the current anybody's guess system.

Reply #110472 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Problem is a logistics one as well.

I realise the health concerns should definately be of the highest priority but any games that don't get played due to heat are not actually cancelled; they're postponed.

Which means that BSA admin. are forced to play these games on a later date, more then likely a Sunday in February. And if it's hot then what? Games need to be played before finals, and you can bet there will be plenty of parents complaining about a Sunday game. Plus finding referees, stadium staff, cancelling training sessions, booking venues etc etc.

As I said the health and safety issues of course should be the most important but there are plenty of issues to consider when postponing games.

Reply #110478 | Report this post


youcouldberight  
Years ago

If we are talking juniors only - why not award each team a draw then no hassle of rescheduling - bottom line it isn't going to affect the ladder etc., I hear the "but we need a win to move into position #...." remember this is junior sport, not the olympics. Best answer to that is - don't rely on one game - you could lose it real badly anyway.

Reply #110496 | Report this post


DaddyO  
Years ago

I saw games at Hillcrest & Mars on Friday night and the Dome on Saturday night. I didn't see any players showing ill effects from the heat, although all teams I saw had 7-9 players and made full use of the bench and timeouts. I was surprised when I walked in to Hillcrest that it wasn't a lot hotter.

The low humidity on Friday also assisted with cooling players down.

Wayville is over ventilated in extreme conditions - the vents in the western wall need covers when the outside temperature is uncomfortable.

I think that BSA got it right - with a 28 degree minimum Friday night most stadia would have been unplayable Saturday morning.

As for finger pointing - everyone has a duty of care. If you think conditions are unsafe, discuss it with your coach/referee/UIC at the time.

Reply #110497 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

No, the coach is the only person with duty of care for his players. BSA has an overall duty of care with respect to safe playing venues and conditions. If a dispute occurred relative to an argument betwen BSA and stadium manager and UIC as to who had duty of care, BSA's present heat policy would not hold upin court IMO. Foreseeable threat is the guiding principle and its well documented how hot certain stadiums get.
We all need to work towards a simple heat policy that allows no, No ambiquity or else it will be finger pointing and other peoples fault in the case of a tragedy.
What is sad is that it will take a fatality for a preventable tragedy to occur. I love the sport, lets make it safer without all the macho stuff associated with sensible decisions. I applaud, Paul's decision on saturday and hope consenus can be reached in formulating a simple over X degrees is cancelled policy.

Reply #110539 | Report this post


Anon  
Years ago

110539 - can u please explain further how the Coach is the only one responsbile for duty of care of the players in the team - what about the refs - they are getting paid - Coaches are volunteers. I am sure that most coaches would try to do the right thing. But there would be a minority that wouldn't or perhaps may not see a problem where someone else might. If Coaches are the ones with this responsiblity and would be subject to legal action if something happened I would think that some Coaches might re-think there commitment to coaching B/Ball if that is what you are implying with your statement that it is their duty of care. Dont clubs have insurance for this sort of thing?

Reply #110590 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Coach Insurance has been an issue for years - ask your club about their level of responsibility to their coaches by protecting them via insurance.
The duty of care is very much a coach issue - they are effectively entrusted with the care of a bunch of kids for the duration of a game.But in the real world, everyone should take on board this duty of care as sometimes a few coaches lose the plot when egos and winning at all costs takes over. Fortunately, we mostly see commonsense but..

Reply #110591 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Basketball SA Hot Weather Policy
 
In general, basketball stadia should be of standard to provide satisfactory playing conditions throughout the year. To assist in this, Stadium Managers should investigate the inclusion or exhaust fans and other ventilation devices. When scheduling season matches Basketball SA should endeavour to make use of the best available basketball facilities.
 
The following should apply in oppressive weather conditions.
 
Stadium Managers should:
 
* Take steps to maximise airflow and reduce heat build up in stadia,
 
* Make an assessment of playing conditions and advise referees and coaches,
 
* Cancel games if playing conditions are considered unsafe.
 
Stadium Managers shall:
 
* Extend the breaks between each quarter by one minute.
 
Coaches should:
 
* Ascertain whether any players have known medical conditions which may be affected by heat,
 
* Ensure that players take adequate fluid during the game,
 
* Make substitutions as appropriate,
 
* Utilise available time-outs.
 
Referees should:
 
* Be prepared to call additional time-outs.
 
Team Managers should:
 
* Ensure that players take adequate fluid before, during and after the game,
 
* Be alert and react to any signs of distress/potential distress in players,
 
* Ascertain whether any players have known medical conditions which may be affected by weather conditions
 
Under extreme conditions Basketball SA management may determine that scheduled games will be postponed / cancelled. Such a decision will normally be taken and communicated at least 24 hours prior to the scheduled event.
 
Ask yourself what extreme conditions are?
Ask yourself if many or any of these things are done?
Ask yourself is this a clear and precise document that is free from ambiquity?
Are the best venues selected for heat tolerance?
Does the coach know the medical condition of his/her players?
What precise temperature relates to extreme conditions?
Was there an appropriate air flow at Wayville on friday night?
etc , etc, etc.
Time to act!

Reply #110684 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Basketball SA Hot Weather Policy
 
In general, basketball stadia should be of standard to provide satisfactory playing conditions throughout the year. To assist in this, Stadium Managers should investigate the inclusion or exhaust fans and other ventilation devices. When scheduling season matches Basketball SA should endeavour to make use of the best available basketball facilities.
 
The following should apply in oppressive weather conditions.
 
Stadium Managers should:
 
* Take steps to maximise airflow and reduce heat build up in stadia,
 
* Make an assessment of playing conditions and advise referees and coaches,
 
* Cancel games if playing conditions are considered unsafe.
 
Stadium Managers shall:
 
* Extend the breaks between each quarter by one minute.
 
Coaches should:
 
* Ascertain whether any players have known medical conditions which may be affected by heat,
 
* Ensure that players take adequate fluid during the game,
 
* Make substitutions as appropriate,
 
* Utilise available time-outs.
 
Referees should:
 
* Be prepared to call additional time-outs.
 
Team Managers should:
 
* Ensure that players take adequate fluid before, during and after the game,
 
* Be alert and react to any signs of distress/potential distress in players,
 
* Ascertain whether any players have known medical conditions which may be affected by weather conditions
 
Under extreme conditions Basketball SA management may determine that scheduled games will be postponed / cancelled. Such a decision will normally be taken and communicated at least 24 hours prior to the scheduled event.
 
Ask yourself what extreme conditions are?
Ask yourself if many or any of these things are done?
Ask yourself is this a clear and precise document that is free from ambiquity?
Are the best venues selected for heat tolerance?
Does the coach know the medical condition of his/her players?
What precise temperature relates to extreme conditions?
Was there an appropriate air flow at Wayville on friday night?
etc , etc, etc.
Time to act!

Reply #110685 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

110685,

Ask yourself. Do most stadium managers have an IQ above 50? Do parents? Do coaches?

This policy is the extent of BSA duty of care. Over to parents/coaches/stadium managers to exercise their duty of care. Nuff said. You seem like a starving, rabid dog after a piece of meat in the desert that is only an illusion.

Reply #110690 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Not all stadiums have a stadium manager at the stadium. Not all kids have their parents at the games. Coaches are not trained at determining when a player is under duress, etc etc etc

Reply #110696 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

110696, I think that piece of meat is still there. Shut your eyes, rub them a little with your paws and you will see its just an illusion.

Commonsense will continue prevail.... I hope :)

What is NOT commonsense is to make a blanket rule that x temperature means all games are cancelled. It depends where the game is played, the time of the game, the age of the players, the humidity, the temprature of the stadium etc. etc.

Stadiums have a UIC, Stadium Manager etc., most parents attend most games and most coaches do have practical training (through many yrs of playing/coaching experience) in whether a game should go ahead or not.

Im sure we are safe!

Reply #110700 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

#700
Are other sports right or wrong to have cancellations based on certain temperatures? Or are they responsible?
You talk about UIC's, Stadium Managers,Coaches and Parents having practical training( I take it you mean experience) in whether games go ahead or not.All of those people besides the parents have a vested interest in playing and therefore judgments can err.
#690
The OHS&W aspect of this is more convulted in that various bodies are involved and each has only a duty of care to its workers.
As to who precisely would be culpable in the event of a tragedy from forseeable dangers, a Pandora's box would be opened.
Coaches are ultimately the providers of Duty of Care to their players for the time they are in charge of them and would be liable IMO for injuries resulting from playing in extreme heat and especially in cases where parents have raised concerns.
BSA would point to its directives, (in its Heat Policy), to subordinates to escape prosecution and Stadium Managers to UIC etc etc.
As you can see each group could blame the other for failing to act. What's clear is that a policy that depend on such a multi layered tier of responsibility usually breaks down.
Its not to hard to monitor each stadium over the summer and test temp and air flows, humidity etc and develop a policy for each stadium. 38 degree days at Wayville are stiffling,
tolerable at Mt Barker and pleasant at Gawler.
I find it disappointing that wanting to place kids safety first is attracting such anger and criticism.
Why not schedule summer games in air cond stadiums as the BSA policy states: make use of the best available basketball facilities when scheduling games.

Reply #110746 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

That extreme common sence approach would mean that Forestville would have a decrease in canteen revenue and that isn't going to happen, unfortunately.

Reply #110752 | Report this post


Magpie  
Years ago

(#110752) I take it that your club does not have a canteen then? I can smell the sour grapes from here.

It's all very well to talk about OH & S policies, duty of care, extreme temp policies, humidity in stadiums, wind factors, chill factors & the build up of fluff in an umps belly button, ect, ect.

The ultimate duty of care is by the parent. To everyone who is winging about having to play in the heat, if you made your child play, why are we even debating it?

If you dont like it, simply ring the coach and tell him/ her that your kid wont be playing & why. If you fear there my be reprisals to your son/ daughter, tell the coach your child is sick! End of story.

Lets all take responsibility, not look for someone to blame because you may have been "uncomfortable" in a hot stadium.

With the way things are looking, it hasnt even begun to heat up yet.

Reply #110821 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago


Everybody taking responsibility is the problem now as no one is individually taking that responsibility and blaming other people for it.
BSA is at fault for not scheduling games at appropriate stadiums in defiance of its own policy.
Stadium managers for not having the courage to call games off because of the money.
UIC are at fault for not seeing it as any of their concern.
Coaches are not only at fault but personaly responsible and liable for injuries that occur and were forseeable and for not wanting to upset the apple cart.
But most of all Magpie , people like you are at fault for ridiculing others who place children's safety as the highest priority.
If Im wrong about the push for a real hot weather then it will all fade away and I have made a mistake. If you are wrong some one will end up in hospital or worse, die.

Reply #110827 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

110827, Anon you keep pushing the barrow!
"Coaches are not only at fault but personaly responsible and liable for injuries that occur and were forseeable and for not wanting to upset the apple cart."

What injuries were there? There were NONE. WHY? because people use commonsense. Who has died? Who has ended up in hospital? Saturday games in the peak of the heat were cancelled where stadiums didnt have air conditioners. I, and others, are riduculing you because you clearly have no clue but yet want to keep labouring this point. There is a policy, it is unambiguous and everyone does exercise their duty of care. At the end of the day it is up the players/parents... END OF STORY.

Reply #110829 | Report this post


lets get real  
Years ago

110829 and magpie
Bottom line its a team sport and we teach our child this .and to play by the rules of said sport. Problem is that once the game starts refs are in control, so they say so it is up to them to call the game of.If bsa got there act togerther no coach ,ref ,or parent would have a problem. Duty of Care starts with BSA and we need to push them to fix this then the end of the story wont be a death at some time because that is how the reel world is heading

Reply #110911 | Report this post


lets get real  
Years ago

110829 and magpie
Bottom line its a team sport and we teach our child this .and to play by the rules of said sport. Problem is that once the game starts refs are in control, so they say so it is up to them to call the game of.If bsa got there act togerther no coach ,ref ,or parent would have a problem. Duty of Care starts with BSA and we need to push them to fix this then the end of the story wont be a death at some time because that is how the reel world is heading

Reply #110912 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Can you see the impracticalities of what you are suggesting. "no games if temperature is a max of 39 for the day." What about if it is 25 in the evening? What about air conditioned stadiums? What about older age groups? What about cooler stadiums, in cooler, better ventilated stadiums geographic locatons? etc. etc. Im glad people like u dont run our sport.

Reply #110926 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

It only takes 1 problem to have a legal case.

The problem is that BSA do not have the sufficient infrastructure to carry out a properly constructed hot weather policy. ie not all stadiums have a stadium manager at them when games are played! Not all UIC's and Hall Managers are properly trained at OH&S. Not all stadium are able to guage the WBST! The number of participants makes it impossible to call everybody up and organise a forfiet on 1 days notice!

As such, they need one which best suits it's current level of admin. A one temp suits al so that the integrity of the competition is not compromised.

Because we are in a market place. And not providing a good serviec to the paying customers will decrease the demand for the sport in the future. And this is what happened on the weekend.

Reply #110932 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

#926
Read the thread before commenting

Reply #110956 | Report this post


News Flash  
Years ago

Postponed Games from last Saturday have been re-scheduled for Sunday 4/2/07 - now appearing on Sportinpulse website

Reply #111181 | Report this post




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