I agree - put Bosh in the top 5

Boozer??

Where's Bizzy's beloved Jason Kidd?! ;)

All this talk about we had about who is better Nash or Kidd (I'm a Nash man) he didn't even make all NBA ... does that settle it?

Not sure a guy that missed 15 games due to suspension should be in it, but I guess they have some guidelines they work to

Also,
how good would it be to see these three teams go at it in a 5 on 5 on 5 scrimmage - you score you keep it and go down the other end.

yeah bosh should be in in place of stoudamire...also...yao ming is a quesiton mark - he did miss a lot of games this year. pretty shocked theres no boozer

I thought James would be in the top 5.

Lebron should be in team 1 for Stoudamire, Boozer should be in team 2, and J.Kidd should be in team 2 for Arenas.

Boozer should be in team 2.
Put all 3 teams in a match. I believe team 1 would win. But team 2 would lost to team 3.

the thing is people..there MUST be 2 guards...2 forwards...and 1 centre..therefore lebron in the second team is fair because he hasnt been better than duncan and dirk...same deal with t-mac - yeah t-mac would be top 5 in the league this year - but - nash and kobe occupied those two spots and have been better than tmac...same goes with amare..no he isnt in the top 5 best players for the season but who else are u gonna put at centre? if he played power forward he might just scrape in the third team because guys like duncan, dirk, bosh, lebron and boozer have been better than him..if boozer played centre he'd be all FIRST team as apposed to being a part of neither.

I could argue all day about Kidd v Nash - Nash gets in because he is surrounded with long armed forwards who can get position and score. Kidd is surrounded with guys like Mikki Moore.

All NBA teams a bit off IMO - Amare not in the first team.

What about T-Mac in the top 5?

im sorry...do people even read what i write...bizzy see above ur post is the explanation as to why guys like t-mac missed out and amare made it...and ur kidd v nash thing is pretty ridiculous...kidd is not surrounded by mikki moore...he is surrounded by allstars in carter and jefferson probably the best wing players in the game today...if u wanna be like that then u could say steve nash is surrounded by kurt thomas

I'm talking in regard to the forward position jules - Nash is surrounded by long armed players, Amare, Marion etc, Kidd has carter who lives on the perimeter these days and Richard "my ankles hurt" Jefferson pfft. Best wing players? I don't think so, I'd take Deng over RJ.

Deng and Hamilton!!

Jefferson ha ha ha..

Go Bulls..

yes but u also mentioned why ISNT t-mac in the first team and why IS amare in the first team - and i clearly explained that before...and who cares what position they are, teammates are teammates..and u cant say kidd doesnt have talent around him..carter living on the perimeter is a bit of an exaggeration..yes he does hover around there a lot more than he used to but your gonna see at least 6 alleyoops from kidd passing to carter or jefferson who make a great play to put the ball in..i just dont understand why u would say 'mikki moore' to further exaggerate ur point..if ur gonna say nash is surrounded by the likes of amare and marion why wouldnt u say that kidd is surrounded by carter and jefferson...and getting in position and scoring is how u put it...im starting to wonder if u know which one steve nash is - u sit down and watch a suns game and u see how its amare and marion benefiting a thousand times more from nash than nash is benwfiting from them...and carter is probably the best in the league when it comes to getting into position to score or at least up there...im a big fan of neither so we are obviously getting a bias perspective here from a kidd fan who doesnt really know what hes talking about

jules, you shot yourself in the head when you said

"surrounded by allstars in carter and jefferson probably the best wing players in the game today"

If you said 'arguably' then I'd be debating that, but since you said probably I think you need to put down the crack pipe.

I don't like Amare in the 1st team, but unfortunately I can't think of a better centre to replace him with, so I guess he gets it by default (like Magloires one all-star appearance).

Boozer is unlucky, along with Camby IMO.

I'd take Deng, Gerald Wallace, Paul Pierce, Caron Butler, Tay Prince, Ray Allen and Josh Howard to name a few over Richard Jefferson at the wing position.

TR - to have BOTH carter and jefferson on the SAME team is a blessing for kidd - both are lightning quick, can flat out jump, and dunk over anyone...then thats where jason kidd benefits...coz he get bring it up the floor...he looks left hes got vince ready to take off..he looks right and hes got rj...god damn it - im not trying to say jefferson is the greatest in the world - i hate jefferson as a player...but u cant disagree with me in saying that 'bizzy's' call about 'mikki moore' surrounding kidd was just ridiculous. u cant say nash has this allstar and this allstar and then exaggerate kidds team mates to the full extent

and the players u mentioned ahead of jefferson? im taking about wing players in terms of gets up and down the floor, is athletic and a great finisher- they compliment their point guard and make their job easier...so dont give me ray allen a pure jump shooter..the only other guy there that id say yeah ok about would be gerald wallace ... coz hes a freak athletically and can make amazing plays

Mamare's 2nd half of the season was as good (if not better) as anyones in the NBA.. and his first half wasn't so bad either. Easy pick in the first 5 IMO

and we are not debating whose the best wing player - i am talking about bizzy thinking he knows what he's talking about - and downplaying what nash does...he's implying that nash's job is easy because of those guys...when his man j-kidd benefits a thousand times more from his players than nash does his...so hes contradicting himself - and anyone who cant see that has no idea.

Jason Kidd could make a block of chedder cheese score (aka Mikki Moore).

How many players in the NBA should give Kidd a percentage of there contract as he alone has inflated their stats. I believe that Carter and Jefferson should be blessing that they have Kidd as their PG. Saying that, I'd still take Nash on my squad over Kidd.

I'd still take my list of players over Jefferson. Have you seen Howard, Butler and Price play before. Oh, Jefferson is a jumper shooter as well. Over 60% of his shot attempts are jump shots. Carter is just under 70%

My man is actually Mr Big Shot Chauncy Billups.

first off - bizzy...i didnt mean ur favourite player or whatever - im talking about who ur defending...and Tr.............im not sure if u realise this...but what u just wrote fits with nash to? do u understand that???...that is what im saying to u and believe or not ur defending me by trying to argue against me...what u just said supports MY argument...bizzy said kidd is better coz he doesnt have good scorers or whatnot and that those guys should be thanking him for everything (by the way - in toronto carter was already a beast of a scorer - where as some of nash's team mates struggled to score above 5ppg before they joined the suns) and so yeah fair enough...i mean kidd's got help but he does help his team score points...does that mean nash doesnt? do u guys even read what i write? bizzys arugment is contradictory coz it goes both ways - more so nash's way...now i hope u actually READ THIS so u dont keep arguing FOR my points and avoid some embarressment

as i no those guys take jump shots...thanks for that...but im taking about on the fast brake - where the majority of kidds assist come from...jefferson and carter are the best in the business coz of their size, strength, ability to finish at the rim, and most of all athleticism.

Ok, lets look at what Kidd has to work with compared with what Nash has to work with.

Kidd was Carter and RJ..... that's it. His other team mates are trash, Mikki Moore, Collins, House, Robinson x 2, and Wright. Boki is ok and Nenad when healthy. His backup is Marcus Williams which means Kidds plays all game. Kidd plays both ways cause he's the only decent defender that the Nets have. Kidd defends the best guard the opposition has.

Nash has Amare, Trix, Bell, Diaw, and is backed up by Barbosa who would start for a lot of NBA teams if he wasn't on the Suns. Nash has an easier time on on D as he has Amare protecting the basket, Trix is protecting the basket, Diaw is protecting the basket, plus Bell is known as a lock down defender who takes the teams best scorer. All the Suns rebound the ball very well.

You have to be worried when your point guard (Kidd) is your leading rebounder, followed by your two guard (Carter).

Jules - take soles in the fact that the people who give out these awards (ie the MVP & All NBA) know infinitely more that TR and Bizzy and they gave the award to Nash the last 2 years (and not Kidd) and they saw fit to leave Kidd out of all 3 All NBA teams - so don't waste your breath - you are right and they are arguing for argument sake.

I guess I'm playing both sides, and yes, both Nash and Kidd are very similar in profile. Fast, running, pin point passing point guards.

IMO Kidd does it tougher as he doesn't have the team mates that Nash has. Kidd plays both ways and Nash only plays one way.

Nash has a dominant front court, Kidd has NO front court.

As I said earlier I'd still take Nash as my PG as I feel he's more clutch then Kidd, plus Nash can hit a jump shot where Kidd isn't that great a shooting the pill.

seriously mate - what are u on about...do u even know where this convo started? it started with me posting the reasons why the players people mentioned were in our out of the nba teams...then bizzy claimed nash's job is easy compared to kidds...the reasons he gave were his team mates (who have become great because of nash - i dont imagine someone whose seen phoenix play saying what ur saying) like i said...the guys u mention like raja and diaw magically improved their games with nash became their point guard..u no why? well yes u would if u watched games, its coz nash never makes a bad decision and is amazing at getting his team open shots...raja bell has developed into an amazing three point shot...because of nash getting him the ball open in the corner etc...stoudamire just has to wait for nash to dump it down to him on some amazing pass where he draws defenders and makes his decision at the last minute to confuse everyone and he stands there and dunks it...marion is not a good scorer...wel good...but not great...and who said anyhitng about defense what does that have to do with this...and nash is in the west...now...as for kidd...carter was the next 'mj' when he was at toronto so kidd hasnt made him anymore of a better player the way nash has made everyone of his team mates better..jefferson as ive now said about a billion times is great for kidd because of his athleticism and ability to finish...nachbar is a proven three point threat who plays a lot of the time when kidd is off the court because of the nets rotation system...but its not like nachbar benefits from kidd...carter is a great playmaker to..and nachbar can get his own shots...we are not turning this into a debate about kidd or nash - look at the thread title...im saying that bizzys comments were stupid saying nash's jobs easier than kidd's...and if u need any kind of proof im sure nash would be glad to point u to the direction of his trophy case

SVD - thankyou...god damn it i needed to hear...i was losing my mind trying to comprehend what these two were saying

TR,

You can't think of a better centre to be in front of Amare in the first team? The best, absolutely most dominant centre in the league by daylight is sitting right there in the second team.

Yoa only played 48 games - missed almost half the season.

If Yoa played all year no question he would be in the first team - no questions about that but you can't be in the team after missing 34 games.

I think it is just the state of the game that their is only 1 true supersta center in the league.

Amare is a PF that has to play the 5 spot coz Phx have no one else. He was the best eligible centre available.

Oden will change all this!

have you ignored where I'd say I take Nash over Kidd????

Oh and you don't think that the teams record has nothing to do with MVP trophies.

That broken leg hurt his chances DC, but i guess if he can be voted to the second team, why can't he make the first team??? I guess that's only the voters that can asnwer that.

haha - once again - thanks for supporting my arugment TR - mvp does have something to do with wins...and u know who gets more than kidd? that steve nash fellow

and i did read that - so i ask why u agree with bizzy....?? that makes no sense...and before u say they have more wins coz they have better players...the nets have underachieved more than anyone else this year...with thier list they shouldve taken out the atlantic

I agree that Kidd does it hard with less talent, but I don't agree that Kidd is the better player.

so u dont think every suns player benefits from nash and should treat him like a god off the court coz hes so nice to them on the court? u dont think amare is spoon fed? carter and jeff arent spoon fed by kidd...kidd doesnt make EVERYONE better...the only players u can list are guys like mikki moore - but u go down the suns list and u put a tick next to every single persons name who wont be a big factor unless nash is there

in conclusion - nash over kidd...BOTH do it hard...nash does it better...all there is to it

jules, do you have a personal vendetta against Bizzy??

He just stated his opinion sheesh..and I agree, Kidd over Nash..I would rather a do it all player than a player on offense only...

After watching Yaos terrible performance, im not so sure that he is the dominant centre i once thought and hoped he would become. He was far outplayed by boozer (who should be there)

If t-mac is a guard, he should be in the first team ahead of kobe. wheres shawn marion. no wonder the guy feels underrated. not sure about Dwight being in there either. not yet. but the rest is ok. good to see amare up there.

no - he said nash has it easy - thats a pathetic call from a guy who clearly doesnt know what hes talking about...anyone whose willing to bag nash is clueless - and i dont think i need to get into nash v kidd again - u can read above if u like...but its pretty obvious nash is a better player...look over the resumes and awards...most recent - see today - all nba teams...i cant see kidds name can u? i usually dont like to point out stuff like that..but in this case it just has to be done because its a bit lop sided dont u think?

Not really, like I said, I would take Kidd over Nash anytime..whilst both are great players, I think Kidd gets the nod for rebounding and defence, along with his distribution of the ball which is on par with Nash IMO.

ok then - u take kidd (who cant win with a good team) and ill take the two-time mvp and best pg in the league steve nash

wow jules posted 16 times in this threat.all are quality and spot on right. to the kidd fans, its been proven by professionals once again today. what more do you want?

Jules, your just making yourself look silly mate! I'm a Phoenix fan and rate Nash higher than Kidd, but when you look at the talent the Suns have compared to the talent the Nets have, then it's pretty obvious that Nash has it better.

Unless I missed something, all Bizzy said was that Nash had it EASIER than Kidd. He's right! Look at the rosters:

C - Amare vs Jason Collins.
PF - Boris Diaw vs Mikki freakin' Moore (Nenad when he's fit, but I'd take Bo over him anyway)
SF - Trix vs Jeff. I'd take Shawn any day.
SG - Raja vs Carter. Nets finally have upper hand, but Bell is a lock-down defender who lead the league in 3's made...
Bench - LB, Thomas, James Jones, Jalen Rose vs.....Williams, Nachbar and Hasan Adams.

Can you really argue that Bizzy is wrong here? I can't.

both have talent...a lot of the suns talented players ARE talented BECAUSE of nash...the three point threat raja as i mentioned again and again...gets his threes coz of nash...boris diaw scores down low coz of nash...amare scores on dunks and layups coz of nash...u watch the phoenix games and count the number of times amare is in a back down situation 1-on-1 and scores with his own skill and his own moves...it appears they have more talent BECAUSE OF NASH! thats what im saying! u watch nets games...then u watch suns games...carter is a scorer and doesnt need kidd to get his points...same with jefferson...they dont rely on kidd the way the suns rely on nash...where as on the suns team literally everything is through nash...whether hes creating space, scoring himself or getting an assist...ITS ALL ABOUT HIM

theres no argument in my opinion. jules is right again. nets arent as good as they should be (see their sub-par record this year) where as nash brings out everyones full potential and the suns record reflects that.

How about we swap Nash for Kidd jules? What you think would happen?

Most of the Suns could start on most other teams, you really think Mikki Moore could get a gig on another team?

I never said Nash was better than Kidd, I said Nash has it easier, thanks twentyfour for proving my point.

Nash is an extremely talented PG no question, I like Kidd for his D. I also like Kidd considering he is averaging a triple double this playoffs.

players become better with nash than they do anyone...watch the suns game and ull understand - i am sick of repeating myself

exactly jules. if carter came to phoenix he'd have a career year, average high 20's or early 30's.kidd doesnt help carter as much nash helps his stars. same goes for most people on both list

See above.

Jules, while I agree with you to an extent (and I don't want to get in toi an argument here as I'd assume you too are a Suns fan), to say that they are talented BECAUSE of Nash is a bit over the top.

Marion has been a 20-10 guy since he entered the league. Amare was ROY and then put up 21 & 9 in his second season (all before Nash came). While Nash helps them on the court a lot, they still are superstars of the league on their own.

I agree that Bell gets most of his shots because of Nash, but Nash also benfits from having Raja's (and Marion's) D to rely on.

Having Barbosa as your backup makes life alot easier than most PG's have it and I'm not really sure how you can say Boris Diaw's stats are due to Nash - scoring is not a big part Bo's game, his biggest weapon is his passing which doesn't have a lot to do with Nash. Phoenix's system in general, sure, but it isn't Nash's doing.

Anyway, that's my two cents. I think we've probably taken this thread a bit off-topic....

the players on the suns look better than they are coz of the way nash plays - ive said it a million times with no response...watch nash play and the things he does for EVERYONE...kidd will help out mikki moore get a few dunks here and there but he has no impact on carters game or anyone else...nash does..and although it looks like on paper the suns are a thousand times better in terms of talent it is that way because of nash. the above post as well stating that if carter came to the suns and having a career year is absolutely true..its the nature of nash's game ... making people better and helping them score more points

He didn't help Dirk a whole lot?

no twenty-four im not a suns fan...just an nba fan...im done with this thread as of now coz ill just keep repeating myself and its gotten so off topic - besides i have work to do now..i wasted my day off on this forum!

just before i do go - what happened before nash came is irrelevant...its the way the suns play now - and amare rarely gets his own hard earned points..and before u all say 'well u said carter was a gun before new jersey' - its not the same because kidd doesnt help carter score to the same extent nash helps everyone else score

jules you said "but he has no impact on carters game"

Maybe you should think about the fact that Vince Carter is really the only one that can impact Vince Carter's game. If he doesn't want to be out on the court, he wont do anything.....

Nash on the other hand doesn't have any major ego's which he has to deal with....

Kidd over Nash for me, purely on defense and overall court awareness

yeah clarky that is pretty stupid

is anyone actually reading jules's posts? And the ones he makes anonymously agreeing with himself, for that matter? unless you've seen every suns and nets game this season (which im assuming you havent) how can you have the right to comment who has it better.

Ok EL Gorilla - let's not comment - let's get the "NBA Experts" to comment - they did Nash is in the first NBA team - Kidd didn't make it

Therefore, Nash is better! I agree!

haha - true SVD...if he doesnt want us to comment let the experts comment - they say...nash...and also...im not posting anonymously e.l.g...but nice try

mmm jules i like how u say nashes teams win and kidds doent. answer me 1 question then buddy. how many times has nash seen the nba finals?

now how many times has kidd seen the nba finals?

kthnxbye

kidd over nash

thats because in the east - the nets could practically walk into the finals because the east was so weak then and the nets had no competition...the suns (or the mavs, coz ur going back that far...even though we are clearly talking about nash in a suns uniform) on the other hand...are in the west. they had to get past the spurs dynasty, the lakers dynasty, and the mavs dynasty (now in phoenix) that answer your question?

nets had to get by 2004 nba champions detroit pistons.

suns have never gotten by the spurs (although they hopefully will this year), the lakers dynasty ended when shaq left and yes they have beaten the mavs, but lsat time they met in playoffs the mavs won.

u bring up some very good points jules, ill give u that

Yao shouldve been in the First Team for Amare

He had higher avgs in Pts, blocks and assists, with almost identical reb avgs

Who votes this crap anyway?

I think it's the media.

ELG, exactly what I was thinking, stopped reading Jules's posts about half way down and loved the way he posted anonymously and agreed with himself (or got one of his mates to back up his comments).

wow - u got me..u got me all figured out, exactly what i was doing

it seems like this team and the the MVP is not consistent. the 5 'best' players are in the 1st team, yet they aren't the most 'valuable' or Kidd would be in the 2nd team.

does anyone else think the 3rd team would beat the other 2?

ELG, I was thinking along the same lines, the 3rd team would definitely give both teams a run for their money.

yeah.........obviously.......becuase both teams are made up of all-stars...i thought that was obvious

I wouldn't have Duncan and Nowitzki in the same team, slows down the starting 5. I would replace Duncan with LeBron in the first team. Maybe even Bosh or Marion ahead of Nowitzki.
My first team would be.

NASH
McGrady
James
Nowitzki
Stoudemire

I would love to see this team play against an International NBA top 5 team.

Parker
Ginobli or Barbosa
Nowitzki
Kirelenko or Bargnani
Yao or Gasol

Does anyone think this is real first NBA team based on performance this year or purely based on player profile (how many singlets and basketball shoes sold). This is why the USA mens basketball team keeps losing, no team chemistry just a team of over inflated ego's. Kobe would hog the ball and really bring down this team.

davik k that is ridiculous

How can you say that Yao should've been 1st team? He played 48 games! He's lucky he was voted into a team at all.

why didnt Vc get in, vince carter constantly gets disrespected cuz he doesnt drop 50 a night or cuz he doesnt ball hog it pisses me off, he was 7 in scoring this year and he was the 3rd most active scorer in the nba and he is 6 all time in ppg in the playoffs so the all nba teams make no sensce to me ne more j kidd is 11 in triple doubles 2nd all time doesnt make ne all nba team its retarded.

why didnt Vc get in, vince carter constantly gets disrespected cuz he doesnt drop 50 a night or cuz he doesnt ball hog it pisses me off, he was 7 in scoring this year and he was the 3rd most active scorer in the nba and he is 6 all time in ppg in the playoffs so the all nba teams make no sensce to me ne more j kidd is 11 in triple doubles 2nd all time doesnt make ne all nba team its retarded.