Found this part interesting:

"Since coming across there's constant feedback on how to play defence and how to play the game properly, and it's paying dividends."

So one would assume he wasn't getting that feedback under Symth and his assistants. I would have thought teaching someone how to improve their game was a pretty important and vital part of coaching any sport.

Interesting as Holmes came up on the forum the other week. He definitely thinks he has improved even if some others don't.

Now the top rebounder in the league and, Boti noted today, currently on track to be the shortest to win the rebounding award.

Gee wiz  maybe we should go and get Shane Heal to coach the Sixer because that obviously how a real coach has to communicate and relay feedback to his players.

I think the fact that Jacob said he wasn't getting any feedback is the problem Joe. We know you think Smyth is the greatest coach, but a past player saying he was getting no feedback from the coach is quite a bad thing too hear.

Joe, why not add something to what is a meaningful discussion, instead of making useless, sarcastic posts. What is your view on Holmes' comments? Do you think he has indirectly stated Smyth/Breheny don't constantly review and assess their players' overall game?

Feedback might be an area of complaint if he showed the initiative to seek this feedback but did not receive any from Smyth.

It's a bit like failing out of university and then blaming your lectures for not helping you pass your assignment. High school would be the same as juniors ranks where you are still a kid and don't know any better but at university you have chosen to undertake a different style of leaning. When a player is a junior they need their coach to sit them down and out line (strengths and weaknesses) and how they can get better as a player, in professional sports they are now undertaking a different style of learning and are not children anymore. Once you become a professional athlete it becomes your own reasonability to become the best player you can.

If you are blaming Phil Smyth not making any player work hard enough, get off the grass.

If Jacob Holmes went to Phil Smyth or any other coach and he was sent away because they were not interested in helping them, then yes we have a problem but that article doesn't say anything along those lines. If he showed this initiative I would buy the reasons he didn't get the necessary feedback but professional athletes are ADULTS and should show the initiative to because the best player they can.

It's their own reasonability to because the best player he can, its Smyth's responsibility to make sure the team plays to the best of their ability.

If the Sixer misses the play off this year I have no problem changing coaches because the team has failed. But I am not going to buy this crap that he didn't make them become a good player when they didn't show any imitative in the first place.

There is no doubt he has improved in many facets of the game .

And there lies is part of the argument regarding wanting Jacob to come home .

I would love the new , improved and mature Jacob to don the sixers uniform .
I would not care so much for the sixers philly Jacob to play for us .

Previously valuable he would now be a vital member of the team and i think should be our next captain and number 1 priority .

Not sure how anyone could say that Jacob doesn't show personal initiative with improvement of his game!

Issac

Are you suggesting that he went to Smyth and was knocked back for individual training sessions?

Not much I can say publically there, sorry Joe.

I don't agree with you that it's solely the approach of a professional athlete to seek that instruction - why would coaches schedule personal meetings/reviews with players were that the case?

Any coach not going out of their way to get the best from their players and team is selling them and their club short, don't you think?

But I do believe that Jacob is very motivated and shows good initiative in working on his own game. Very driven. Worked hard during the off-season trying to get himself a Boomers spot. I remember Oscar saying that at the Boomers camps, Goorjian used Holmes as an example of someone who had kept working on his game during the off-season with barely a break.

Joe, that metaphor comparing a uni lecturer to a pro ball coach is laughable.

Why?

Uni lecturer often has hundreds of students in their course. Mine did. Most are unlikely to ever know your name. You have tutors who are your first point of call when you require help/direction.

A coach has a squad of say 15 max, and a core group of 12. Smyth only plays 10, and two of those don't really see any time.

A coaches whole job is to train, develop and mentor players. Jacob hit the Sixers fresh fromAIS along with Oscar. I understand that college careers were discouraged in favour of directly entering the Sixers program. College would have provided intense personalised training and development.

A coach is supposed to be a senior figure with vastly more experience/knowledge than his players. Particularly the young players. Jacob still falls into this category IMO.

If a coach's task is not to actively single out areas a player can improve on, what is a coach's task/role? Develop offences? Smyth does not do this either.

Jacob has a reputation of being one of the hardest working players around, not just at the Sixers, but in the League. Goorgian has praised his efforts at Boomers camps previously. A good coach can direct that effort, which is what Jacob appears to be saying about Heal. I'll stop short of saying I'd rather Heal caoch the Sixers, but this article certainly adds to argument that Smyth cannot and does not develop talent.

Jacob left because he thought he was going to be the man with the Dragons.. Kind of back fired and he will be back in Adelaide soon to get all the shots once again..

I completely disagree with Joe M that it is the players responsibility to initiate feedback from the coaching staff. (And who knows if Holmes did or didn't initiate feedback anyway.) Players may not be aware of what they are doing wrong in the first place just like an employee may need instruction from their boss as to how to improve their work.

It is the coaches job to let players know how they could improve their game and what their areas of weaknesses are, eg a jumpshot that is too flat. Obviously some players are more receptive to criticism than others and more motivated to do something about the weak parts of their game but it is the coaching staff that should be providing the necessary feedback and instruction on how to improve their game.

diddy , unlike your name changin big ego self , Jacob holds no thought of being the man rather a hardworkin man on a mission .
So keep swingin a$$ monkey .

Truth Hurts Rotate on this..

I am not going to get in a childish game of i know you are said you are but what am i , so diddy thanks for your valuable input and i will take it on board .

"It's a bit like failing out of university and then blaming your lectures for not helping you pass your assignment. "

It's more like failing our of university because your lecturer failed to prepare for lectures or simply didn't turn up.

'Talented guy, not a bad shooter, doesn't play a whole lot of D and his shot selection is pretty average'," Heal said.

I can't work out if Heal is talking about Jacob or himself.

Nice, Vito....

What a surprise this web site blames Phil (fuck would get the blame for WW2 if he was alive) rather than the player themselves.

Next year when we have a new coach, you will have to find a new scapegoat but I guess he will still get the blame.

am i the only one who says come again Joe M to his "fuck would get the blame for WW2 if he was alive"

Joe, Who is Fuck and how did he die?

Joe, say something constructive. The discussion is about how a coach should be involved in a player's development. No one is blaming Phil for anything. jacob is a fantastic player, so there is nothing to "blame" Phil for.

What Jacob has commented on is the fact that the Dragons have actively criticised his game in a constructive manner, put in place a plan to improve certain areas, and the results have been very good.

The question is, does Phil do this? I would say in a general sense, no. He is not known for his ability to develop.

What have you to say in response?

"Next year when we have a new coach, you will have to find a new scapegoat but I guess he will still get the blame. "

You've had so many scapegoats in the past.....

Charles Thomas
Willie Farley
Injuries
This year it's Chappell and Dench

The Adelaide 6ers Club and Boti make sure that the coach is never a scapegoat.....I assume that will continue if it's another coach.

What do the Adelaide 36ers and West Coast Eagles fans have in common?

Both have their head in the sand about who is to blame about the failure of this club.

The players at the time didn't work hard enough and now they are in the new environment have found a new level of maturity. Don't blame the incumbent coach; blame the player for not working on his deficiencies at the time.

You can lay blame on Phil as much as you like but he got to the pinnacle as a player and as a coach, can the same be said regarding Shane Heal or Jacob Holmes?

Maybe your mates should look in the mirror and ask themselves the question, did I work hard enough?

As far as I am concerned; it's the player responsibility to work on their game. Not the coaches responsibility to make then into a good player. Maybe we should go and get Mike Dunlap back as head coach. That worked the first time didn't it? If we kept Dunlap as coach we would not have had Brett Maher. It's good to day let have a development coach, but I was a coach who can get results. Sure he hasn't got results in the past few years but nether have the so called 'development coaches' we have had before him. It' time to start blaming the players for not putting in the time to become the best player they could.

Piss off and stop blaming the coach for not getting results. Phil Smyth has got results; it's the players who have not developed in to player capable of demanding theses results.

Fuck it; let's sack Phil Smyth and bring back Mike Dunlap and have every player threaten to walk out again. That's what I have to say.

DICKO - (Mod: language please) back to prictoria.

whats wrong with finding a coach that can use both approaches? joe i dont know you but you seem to be getting very angry. try not to curse because young players read this.

hit the nail on the head anon #159936. Players have come and gone and our results continue to get worse. The only constant presence has been the coaching staff....

Your really going about this the wrong way Joe M....

Why?

Dunlap was a development (youth orientate) coach who removed all the veterans (that's what the majority on here what) vs. the incumbent veteran coach.

Apologies for the profanity.

That's why this year will his last year if we miss the play offs. .

No one ever said he has the 'Leigh Mathew Collingwood' job for life but IMO he deserved this year to turn it around, much to the chagrin of some posters on this web site.

I agree, he DID deserve this year to turn it around..

He DID NOT, and that is why I am pissed off about it..

To be fair, other constants from this year and last: Maher, Copeland, Cooper, Ng, Sutton

I think the main thing hurting the side this year has been the lack of production from Chappell, followed by limited opportunities where Maher and Davidson have been on court together.

Other teams are succeeding while missing key players, but I think essentially playing with 1.5 imports is making us more exposed.

---

Back on topic, my points are and have been:

- Holmes uses initiative, so to suggest otherwise is a stretch
- players need to show initiative, but coaches should aim to get the best out of their players

My remark that Jacob is a motivated player was solely in response to Joe's suggestion that Jake might not've shown initiative.

Oh, and I would think Chappell had more responsibility for WWII than Smyth, based on forum comments this season. Pretty sure there's been a fair swag of criticism of players actually (Dench, Sutton, Ng, Copeland, etc).

Joe, re your response to the dichotomy comment - why is Dunlap suddenly the only other option. As someone else said, can't you combine both approaches (if Smyth doesn't already)?

Joe M - your started off badly in this thread and have gone backwards fast. the mere fact you have resorted to profanity and abuse seems to me to indicate you are struggling to come up with a credible argument to back up your thoughts.

Basically I would say Smyth has been a fantastic coach - but since the heady days the message coming from him has become stale (doesnt really matter at this stage what exactly has caused this, it just has) and the best way forward IMO is to make a change at the helm, get some fresh ideas and reinvigorate the whole club!

Smyth may be able top move to another club and do very well - but I feel his time at the Sixers is rapidly drawing to a close - and the longer things go on the way they are this season the more his spectacular results when he first came to the club will be tarnished.

Joe,

Without Mike Dunlap we wouldn't have had Brett Maher. Not the other way around. Mike was the reason Brett improved. Tough training and opportunity. Phil was just able to reap the benefits. dn now without somebody to develop players for him, and with is BS recruiting we have seen the club go backwards at a fast rate of knots.

Jacob is not the only player that has sought feedback and been told to 'not train so much'. And that player is elsewhere as well.

Brett was given the starting spot over Phil when Dunlap was coach. Phil is still bitter about this and is a large reason why is isn't willing to give yuoung guys a go.

PS And Dunlap never had a season below a semi-final finish.

Leopard - you're kidding about Phil's reason for not playing the young players right? Surely? Some coaches, particularly those from the "old school" - which is Phil - always have more trust in their senior players and believe young guys have to do their apprenticeship before they can play significant minutes. Under Phil, J Williams did it, Ng did it, Sutton is just coming out of it Dodman and Burdon are currently in it.

Phil is a coach who has the ability to turn a team of champions into a champion team also. If we had a team of champions next year I almost guarantee we would go close to a title if Phil was still at the helm.

What Phil lacks is the strategic ability to break down his team's strengths and weaknesses and play to them. He also lacks an ability to have a team play disciplined, structured offensive and defensive sets (I was very reliably informed quite recently that Phil only this year and not recent years really put any defensive strategy in place, and worked on it at training). That is what our current team needs as we don't have any players other than Brett and Ballinger who can create their own shots, and knock down transition threes (like the glory championship days).

Which is also why Jacob is thriving at South - because he isn't the create your own shot type of player at NBL level, and clearly Shane Heal breaks things down fairly intricately for them and is willing to work with his junior players one on one.

'He also lacks an ability to have a team play disciplined, structured offensive and defensive sets'.
Only a minor detail Lockstock??

hahaha. I should underline "disciplined and strutured". What I mean by that is his offensive sets are relating to reading the defence and giving players an opportunity to create their own shots and play relatively free flowing in relation to their ability. We don't have a team that can exploit that type of offence right now

Defensively, I don't think there is a standard set of principles, they seem to change from game to game..

Basically Smyth is going to look like a great coach when in charge of guys who are creative, instinctive players who like their freedom, like a Brooks, or a Rychart. But he has NO IDEA of how to coach a team full of players who DO need structure. Jesus, look at Mottram and Dench. These are good basketball players, but they are lost on our team. Or look back to the year Paul Rogers spent here, then have a look at how well he played the years either side of that season. We are getting more out of Ballinger lately because DAVIDSON has worked out that he needs the ball, NOT Smyth.

And Joe, if you think it is the player's responsibility to initiate feedback from the coach, then I'd encourage Erik Burdon to get up halfway through the second quarter on Saturday night, take off his warm ups, and go to the bench to check in. When Smyth asks "what the hell are you doing?" he should respond "I'm going in for Sutts. He's playing like shit and I can do better. What do you think coach?"

"DICKO - (Mod: language please) back to prictoria"

Is that near where you live? Philtopia?

(Mod: Joe, you gotta pay that!)

I think this topic is a pretty good lesson about the perils of drink posting.

Joe M (youth orientate)is that a young asian spinning around in circles looking for direction ?
Also do you mind if i use that and become orientate on this ? or maybe you could just change your name to Fuck M .