BigTimePlayer
Years ago

U/20 Nationals

Any news on the U/20 nationals from their teams? News has it the NSW Women only had 4 at their tryouts?

Topic #18526 | Report this topic


--  
Years ago

4?!
This just highlights a certain trend that I have noticed creep into some State programs throughout the country.

We all know that there are going to be players that are disappointed at not being picked in state sides, that much is inevitable. But what I dont like is the fact that not only are these kids cut from squads, they become alienated from the State program for years to come. This much I have observed from having kids involved in state teams in Victoria (specifically the girls program).

Coaches often select their players not only on skill, but on what club they play for and who their parents are. When coaches like these continually get re-hired into Head Coaching positiong (a thing that ALWAYS happens in Vic), they are loved by those players that they choose and absolutely hated by the large majority of players that they don't.

This has a flow on effect so that when you come to under 20's tryouts, nobody will even bother trying out because they have such a deep seated resentment for all that the State program stands for. Many of these girls were cut from the state program in U/16's for having 'no potential', but by the time under 20's come around they have improved out of sight but will not deign to try out for the coaches who put them down.

This year the Victorian U/20 girls will be lucky to have enough players in their squad to train at all. There are 5 players attending the AIS who will not be available for any training in the lead up for the tournament. All of the girls who have been through the system know that even if they get in, they will have worked their asses off for the 3-4 months of squad training only to have their bums placed firmly on the bench in favour of the institute girls who will stroll into the team come Nationals and get all of the serious minutes!

It isn't hard to see why 20's teams struggle for numbers.

Reply #218140 | Report this post


Dr Damage  
Years ago

when you have a national std team at 20's as coach does...this is always an issue.
When the team is marginal , you have many marginal players!
It just makes sense???
Relax... gold to vic the rest can fight out the other medals.




Can you seriously say that the 6 obvious picks don't make his team????

Reply #218151 | Report this post


pasadena 89  
Years ago

dr damage conceding defeat already??

Reply #218157 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

why doesn't the AIS play the AIS and save all the hassle.

Reply #218159 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

If players are going to hold grudges over a coach because they werent picked for a state team 4 years ago, then they shouldnt be getting picked at all PERIOD. Its a privellege to represent your state and if you have an opportunity to play at that level, to pass it up because you dont like the coach is extremely immature.

Reply #218523 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

523, wouldn't be the first or last player to skip a team because of a coach.

Reply #218529 | Report this post


Anon  
Years ago

523 - it may just be that their confidence is knocked by what has happened and they choose not to be humiliated again.....

Reply #218548 | Report this post


Wayville 48  
Years ago

Anon,

Then they shoulkdn't be involved in competitive sports, because at some point everybody gets cut/misses selection or isn't good enough.

If you quit, and don't try again, what does that say about what kind of person you are?

Reply #218553 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Someone said it right earlier, is a privelage, not a right. All the pie in the sky coaches or would be coaches think they have all the answers but when little Johhny or Jenny cannot cut it at try outs or they make the team and they are a no show during the tournament, then they go looking to blame someone else.

Why change coaches if they are successful ? What happens when your kid doesn't get the job they really want ? Grow up for gods sake and talk about the teams that are going to participate rather than the kids who missed out 4 yrs ago.

If they get off their butts and work at their game, maybe they just might make that all important Vic team !!!!

Reply #218585 | Report this post


Ploys explaine?  
Years ago

I wouldn't think it's sour grapes or fragile personalities, in all instances, that has these girls not trying out in U20's; its the "use and abuse" system of the past that puts many talented kids off for good.

What gets me is that some of the girls that get cut are expected to continue to train with the squad until they go on tour.

For SA state squads in the past, U18 & below, they have been told that if they do not continue to train with the state squad they WILL get cut from SASI.

Funny - I thought State & SASI were to separate programs.

Yeah you can roll out the old "they should take advantage and train with the best" however it is a huge commitment for no reward...not even a $20 training top as a "thanks for your effort". Most of these girls train with each other at least once or twice a week. State training, in most cases, is no different to what they do week in and week out.

"Your not good enough for state but we want you to come out and train your body to the limit so the girls who are going away have some bodies to batter"

The ones who are serious about their Bball, but cant crack the inner sanctum at state level are better off, in my opinion, on concentrating their efforts on gaining a regular ABA spot.

All of a sudden they are "wanted" in U20's....no thanks.

Reply #218656 | Report this post


Anon  
Years ago

Does anyone know if this crap goes on in football at junior level??

Reply #218718 | Report this post


explained  
Years ago

These players cut and expected to train on are called "reserves",they are helping provide numbers at training (can't do much with ten or less.) Also reserves improve the standard/intensity of training.
Any state team basketball or badminton will have reserves, players get injured and thats when a reserve is called into the team.
As basketball is a team sport with team concepts the reserves must be at training. Although you have no understanding or respect for the role reserves play in a team, you must understand they ARE still part of the team. Not training reserve lets the players down and robs someone that was cut before you of the opportunity to be in the squad.

State training is no different to what they do at club trainings.
You must be joking?
Do you watch the same games that I do on friday.
When the game quality (espicially girls) and depth of tallent is as poor as it is, I refuse to believe ALL club trainings are of high quality.

If you are in SASI which by the way is an elite training program. You MUST aspire to play at your highest level. For juniors thats state.
Again if you don't want to play state or be reserve then don't take someone eles SASI scholarship.

17 year old juniors can walk into the ABA and dominate in their first season, because they've done state/ITC etc. Understand other players have and will continue to improve along these pathways. Even if you didn't. Aspiring to gain a regular ABA spot in a semi-social league may be the right advice for you.
To suggest anyone serious about their basketball to concentrate on ABL over state is stupid.

Womens ABA isn't a breeding ground for development. Most ABA women have no more skill, and the same defficiencies when they retire as they had as juniors.

Most not all.

Reply #218722 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Does it go on in footy ? Mate it happens everywhere. If your kid does not make the team then there will be crap from parents for years to come. I know of a kid who missed a team in 16's, that will likley get drafted to an AFL list and all that is spoken about is how he was hard done by in 16's basketball.

Truth is, his basketball probably helped him with his footy. I say good luck , get on with it and make the most of what you have. If you miss out on the footy draft, do you just stop playing footy ???

Most kids play where they can and move on, I suggest that the kids will get some hard knocks along the road of life and it will not always go your way.

Successful people turn knocks into character building motivation.

Reply #218730 | Report this post


Anon  
Years ago

I get the feeling though there are more opportunities and recognition in choosing to play footy at a high level than b/ball?

Reply #218745 | Report this post


Pultney 12  
Years ago

Brad Newely and Jo Ingles both missed State selection a couple of times, and trained on as reserves, hasn't seemed to hurt them!

Reply #218751 | Report this post


ankles  
Years ago

NSW 20's women will have a full team at Nationals!! Had more than 4 at their trials but fair to say there could have been more (WNBL girls not available).

Timing of 20's tournaments and corresponding trials not good - many candidates just finished HSC (or equivalent and haven't played for four months). Know of a coupleof kids who couldn't make up their minds about 20's, but having played the PSG tourny and got the HSC out of the way were keen again - albeit probably too late for most coaches.

At what point did it become a divine right to be selected in every team for which you tried out. The prestige or credibility of every team should be directly related to the number of people who are eligible for selection in that team and consequently the difficulty in getting selected - hence State teams are harder to make but more prestigious to make.

I would identify a key ingredient to being successful as missing out on a team AND coming back for more. Teaches you about whether a kid wants to be good and is prepared to work at it or would just like to be good until something is put in their way. If they are cut and don't try out again then you'd have to say the coach made the right call!

I know of a number of kids who rather than play Div 2 as a bottom-ager, quit playing. They obviously don't want to play that much.

Check the correlation between 16's teams and the corresponding age group four years later at 20's - surprisingly few constants in that time. The kids that make it are the kids who went again after missing out at some stage.

Reply #219120 | Report this post


Ploys explaine?  
Years ago

"Do you watch the same games that I do on Friday"

I bet I do.

There sure are some average teams out there, no doubt about it. There are also a few very good teams in the comp with high quality trainings. You don't think so? Perhaps you should try to find such a club. There are a few out there, although they are bursting at the seams.

The question was asked. You have attempted to gloss over the very heart of the problem with your "reserves" comment as if the kids give up as soon as they miss out. This is just not true.

The way both girls and boys are treated as "reserves" is pretty average. Improve on this and more will stay interested. Obviously the high drop out rate in state is a culmination of a number of things, one of which is how the kids are treated.

How you treat the kids now is how you will be repaid in the future... and thats happening right now.

Reply #219125 | Report this post


Frog 46  
Years ago

PE, how should they be treated better?

Put them in the team would be the only way. Then someone else misses out.

Your argument is flawed and can only be interpreted as, you believe your daughter should have made a team when she missed out!

Are you suggesting they should be reserves and not train on? Surely not.

How should they be better treated, other than putting them in the team? Please explain!

Reply #219129 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Raise the standard of coaching at state level and end some of the blatant nepotism and perhaps more will trial.

Reply #219147 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

What is the point of the U20 nationals? Is it to unearth more talent or to consolidate what talent has already been identified? Or is it to attract scouts for college invitations?
Would be nice to know if anyone knows.

Reply #219149 | Report this post


Pasadena 56  
Years ago

anon #219417

so give an example!

Reply #219166 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Pasedena 56,
You must be one of the coaches??
on behalf of anon #219417, there is a rumour that one boy was selected and he did not turn up to any selection trial. Could you please confirm that rumour as being false.

Reply #219177 | Report this post


ic  
Years ago

"219177" depends on what club u play for

Reply #219181 | Report this post


Wayville 67  
Years ago

Do we have teams picked yet anyway?
I haven't seen the teams ??
Nepotism would mean lots of Forestville and Norwood players??

Reply #219182 | Report this post


Ploys explaine?  
Years ago

Frog 46, you and a few others just keep missing the point. Some kids who miss out go away and sulk and never recover. Others keep going back and chipping away. They may or may not make it but they don't give up. Human nature. Some kids are treated harshly throughout the process so when their state may actually need them they are not interested.

Pick a team of 10, add another 5 reserves and you have your state squad. Train them and drill them so that if any team member is injured you have a ready replacement - are you with me?

No way am I saying all 15 should make a team. What I am saying is there has been a clear difference in the way the reserves, boys or girls in SA have been treated in the past. Still with me? No?

Example: player picked for state team (boy or girl you choose; it has happened in both squads)is injured for most of the state trainings (and most of the regular season). Coaches happy for him or her to sit on the side lines and even miss a training or two in the coming months to the nationals. This kid will make a full recovery just in time to start nearly every state match. Reserves kid busts their guts week in and out and suddenly the niggling injury they have been carrying for a while flares up and eventually the call has to be made to sit out a training or two. The reserve kid suggests to the state coaches that maybe their time in the squad is up due to the injury. The reserve is told their commitment to the process is not good enough so either shape up or ship out. The reserve then frets that if they don't get their ass out on the court they will not only be cut from the state squad, but SASI as well. They continue to train under an injury cloud until the state squad flies out and then miss the next 4-6 weeks sitting on the side lines recovering from a stress fracture brought about from over training.

Sound familiar? Probably not if you have had nothing to do with either boys or girls state programs over the past few seasons or are one of those blinkered parents whose kid is in the team who sees nothing but rose coloured trainings each week and thinks the coach is marvelous.

Still with me? Probably not, eh!

Reply #219200 | Report this post


--  
Years ago

HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD Ployse explaine!

It is all nice and well to say that 'a reserve is part of the team' and that 'reserves should be happy that they even get to train at all'. In an idealistic world this would be true.

Sadly the issue here that I tried to explain but obviously wasn't clear enough, is that the coaches treat reserves APPALLINGLY. It is undeniable.

As said in the post above, we face the same issue with state squads in Victoria. I will use an example. One girl, who is tall but not particularly talented who is now going into U20's has, without failure EVERY YEAR since U16's, developed some sort of injury at the beginning of the state selection process. But because it was decided by the 'higher powers' of BV (one of which being her father), the state coaches were instructed to include her in the team each year. This is reguardless of the fact that her injuries would only allow her to train 1 week before the tournament, and even then her health would permit her to only play very limited minutes at the tournament!

Now put this continuing scenario into the context of the poor reserve who has to put up with this bullshit! They have to work their asses off week in week out, they are the ones that are becoming an integral part of the team dynamic in practice matches, and to cap it all off they are the ones who get to sit on the sideline and pretend that they got a fair shot at making the team. Im not debating whether the reserve is more skilled then the injured player, only that the reserve has through months of training been equipped with the tools to compete at Nationals, and the injured played has not.

Im not trying to say that there shouldn't be any reserves. There will always be a need for emergencies because injuries are inevitable. But coaches need to stop treating their chosen 10 like porcelain dolls and start understanding that you can't expect a reserve to take on the full responsibilities of somebody who is in the team WITHOUT ACTUALLY BEING IN IT.

Reply #219244 | Report this post


Fan1234  
Years ago

Shame the Womens is not regarded highly by the players. College Coaches and recruiting agents abound at the 20's. The men's promises to be closely contested. Victoria followed by NSW followed by WA then QLD?

Reply #219412 | Report this post


Anon  
Years ago

And SA?

Reply #219419 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

They suck as usaual!!!!

Reply #219698 | Report this post


ankles  
Years ago

Not sure I understand all the angst about the role of reserves here. And this comes from someone whose daughter was overlooked for an 'injured' player (actually just wouldn't travel and trained at home that weekend) and missed out on the State team - something which has held her back significantly in my opinion.

It happens.

Coaches pick their teams - THEIR teams - to run the stuff they want to run and to suit their philosophy - some finish first, some finish last. Administrators occasionally stick their heads in and make comments or promote the cause of kids who have a future in the game. Often this doesn't make sense to the casual observer.

But nobody makes these kids try out, nobody makes them accept the role of the reserve and no coach I have ever come across has deliberately treated a kid poorly.

I'm delighted that a couple of kids who have been 'long-term' reserves in the past will make the NSW 20's as their first State team this year. They've made the most of their opportunities as reserves as opposed to whingeing about the injustice of it all.

Seeing as how I'm having a bit of rant, I wonder where the people who are so poorly treated would have been yesterday. For the past four days, I have run a 'training' session for our local association kids who are going to Country Tours in the next week. Just an 'opportunity' for them to prepare well and perform better when they go away. Not compulsory, the teams have been picked, I wont coach any of them while they are away. Four days, eight hours total, 20 kids (including a couple of 'reserves'). I was on the court, with help from a recently graduated U/18, while the parents of the other kids sat in the stands and chatted (and maybe complained about selection processes, the biases in the way I treat their kids, how I praise my own daughter too much and theirs not enough, how I speak poorly to X and favour the girls over the boys. Who knows, maybe they went home and got on Hoops and complained about the State selectors and coaches.)

And after the session I went around and closed all the fire doors (our local association doesn't feel its worthwhile opening for these kids in the holidays), was thanked by all of the kids (and none of the parents) and went home to look after my own kids.

Reply #219736 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Ankles, the real problem with some, not all, state coaches is that they have to many debts to pay because the basketball world is so small. The best pick without fear or favour but they are the minority.
Further, if you haven't seen a kid treated badly, you haven't looked hard, listened well or are trusted.

Reply #219756 | Report this post


Ploys Explaine  
Years ago

Ankles, its people like you that keep the sport going.

Reply #219825 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

So any1 no who has made any of the state teams??

Reply #220824 | Report this post


xyz  
Years ago

nagy
madgen
farley
kermond
nairn
bunce
ireland
gates
boothy
williams


Boys??
don't think its named

Reply #220825 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

mcmath
dubrich
elliott
lycett
maynard
daly
warbout
phillips
bond
brooksby

Reply #220833 | Report this post


sillybilly  
Years ago

What club are brooksby and bond from?

Reply #220846 | Report this post


Anon  
Years ago

Brooksby is from the Evil Empire

Reply #220850 | Report this post


sillybilly  
Years ago

How many from each club?

And Country?

Reply #220854 | Report this post


sdfg  
Years ago

mcmath - Sturt
dubrich - South
elliott - North
lycett - North
maynard - Sturt
daly - Sturt
warbout - Sturt
phillips - West
bond - West
brooksby - Sturt

Reply #220859 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Good reading lads, if your chance comes you better take it, those who desire to play the most will get there reward. Time is a great leveler of talent if you have the patients to wait!!

Reply #221119 | Report this post




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