Jack Toft
Years ago

BSA Future Direction

For those who are in the know, or think they are in the know (everyone put their hands up), you would be well aware of the intention of BSA to rejig the governance of the sport in this state to a Victorian style approach.

At present, there is the Metro arm which is club based, Church, and then Country which is association based.

The participation rate in Metro areas is lower (per head) than in country and lower in this state than other states. The participation rates of the outer metro clubs (Mavs, Lions) is lower.

I think BSA is trying to build the sport and in doing so considering whether an Association based model would increase participation.

There have been comments from others in other threads saying that an association model would not work.

Let's discuss the pros and cons.....

Topic #18940 | Report this topic


Anonymous  
Years ago

Not a pro or con, but a statement: the association model is not just "Victorian" - Western Australia, New South Wales and Queensland (or at least Qld South, not sure about North) all have association based models for their competitions.

Reply #224304 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I must admit I'm a little confused here. It seems to me that to have an association based system driving each current club (maybe less clubs in future!!!)we need to access more players to fill the association pipeline to allow representative teams to be formed to compete in what we know as district basketball.

If these people are not available will an association system work. In an association system does an individual have to play for an association team as well as a "district" team. Does that mean more trainings and more time away from the school books.

Perhaps someone can explain how this works in other states so we can have a meaningful discussion on the pros/cons issues/benefits.

Yes Jack, I am one of those persons not in the know and my hands are well and truly not in the air!

Reply #224314 | Report this post


bball  
Years ago

Association model makes sense from a financial standpoint . . .in theory.

You have district clubs run their own domestic competition - ala Sturt/Forestville with City South.

Best of these go up to play in the district comp. Ideally, as has been discussed previously - you have only three divisions. Everything else is social ball.

So then you can spoil the elite and charge accordingly, while making a far-more cost-effective sport for the social teams and not over-promising and under-providing. (Currently div 1 kids get best coaches, while div 5 - who still pay the same fees, get someone's (good-intentioned) dad)

District clubs have an income stream with the domestic competition, which helps fund more income-generating endeavours (do NOT put into ABA programs - as happens in Eastern States).

The problem - BSA loses money at the div 4/5 level which will go to the club-run domestic comp. How do they make this money up? Charge more?

The second, more pressing problem, is where exactly are these domestic competitions going to be run? Adelaide has a chronic facility shortage, and any talk of domestic, association-based competitions is simply logistically unrealistic.

So - get more stadia THEN talk about association-based intiatives. We need at least three more courts at every district club - just ask the poor souls at each club in charge of booking training venues!

Reply #224317 | Report this post


Jack Toft  
Years ago

304, based on what you've said, are we the only mainland state without an association model.

314, my understanding is this. The association model in SA would be that the state comp would be Div 1/2 and the 3/4/5 comp would be more of a zone comp.

IE, The Div 1/2 comp could be made up of any team, both Adelaide teams and country teams, but based on skill. eg the spots could be:
Murray Bridge, Barossa, Sturt, Forestville, Centrals, North Adelaide, Port Pirie, Norwood, Mavs, Willunga

The 3/4 comp would be more of a City South type comp where players don't travel as far. eg you could have City North (West, North, Centrals) where those teams play in the north, City Central (Norwood, Torrens Valley, Woodville, Mavs, Magic) and City South (Sturt, South, Southern Tigers, Forestville)

The 5 comp would be your local basketball rec centre.

How would other sports do it?

Reply #224323 | Report this post


3  
Years ago

So would it be correct in saying that this would actually mean that only the best players would be playing district basketball, not just anyone who can afford the fees and has a spot available to them?

Reply #224326 | Report this post


Jack Toft  
Years ago

The best teams should be playing at the highest level

Reply #224333 | Report this post


HO  
Years ago

There should be no question that an association model would boost participation.

If only a couple of clubs in Adelaide are running competitions that is a travesty.

The structure should be:

National Body
State Body
Association
Clubs

Where the best players from associations play in representative competitions managed by the state.

In other stats virtually no clubs control venues, they are controlled by the associations.

If considering any more than a D1 and D2 playing across venues, then that is interesting. (seniors obviously)

Local basketball venues should be running masses of competitions for their local community.

The measure for success would be that your venue is so full of local competition that on Monday through Friday and all day Saturday your own representative teams should NOT be able to get on the court to train.

Reply #224350 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Last time I checked there were more than a few clubs in Victoria that manage a venue and play in Domestic Leagues that they don't run and also play in the VJBL.

People should talk about facts instead of assuming only one model is in use in Victoria, NSW, QLD and WA

Reply #224353 | Report this post


HO  
Years ago

#224353...not sure about NSW. but in Vic Eltham and Bulleen like to tell people they are a club...but they are in fact an association. They run competitions, and they participate as clubs in leagues like VJBL and EDJBA... but they have a firm status as an assoc, and they vote as an assoc.

Technically (and enforceably), and here is the governance issue...a club cannot affiliate with Basketball Victoria...which is perhaps where BSA are looking to go. Clubs cannot vote at BV.

In Queensland they have associations but no clubs affiliated with BQ to my knowledge.

Reply #224354 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

HO Bulleen is a club, they call themself a club and are run as a club.

Running social competitions doesn't make them an Association.

Reply #224355 | Report this post


HO  
Years ago

#224355.

Sorry and I do npot want to be rude but that is not correct. Yes they call themselves a club, yes they compete as a club. However, running social competitions is EXACTLY what makes them an association in terms of affiliation with BV. Go and check BV's constitution, its on their website. Bulleen can vote at BV's agm, you cannot do that unless you have association status.

(and yes I know Bulleen proudly and adamantly call themselves an club - nothing to do with their affiliated status with BV unfortunately - quite simple there is nothing in BV's constitution that alloows clubs to join)

Reply #224361 | Report this post


pasadena 89  
Years ago

Sorry 355, but HO is right. Bulleen is most definitely an association.

Reply #224370 | Report this post


Cat 27  
Years ago

The kids that play for the bulleen club also play in the association in other clubs.

Reply #224371 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Bulleen call themselves a club because that's how they operate.

They run a local basketball venue for social and school based competitions.

All of their juniors plays for Bulleen-Templestowe Basketball Club in either the VJBL or EDJBA. Having been involved within Bulleen I know how this works.

Ignoring that, the point I was making is that BSA believe that to be an Association you must run social, miniball and domestic competitions. That is their model and there is no other option. Sturt and Forestville are the only two clubs which will be able to attempt this in the short term.

Clubs such as North, Woodville and West for example should be allowed to run as a club and compete in BSA run Domestic competitions along the same line as Bulleen do.

Another issue is venues. BSA's plan is to lease/give the local stadiums over to the clubs. That's great for Forestville but incredibly unfair to North Adelaide. Also what do Norwood, Woodville and Centrals do? I know the response, they'll hire venues in the area the same way the bigger Victorian Associations do, but anyone who suggests this should contact the 2 or 3 venues in the Norwood area about their courts and the costs associated with hiring them.

There simply isn't facilities in Adelaide to have every club set up these competitions and BSA are not in a position to hand over venues to clubs when there is such a disparity between the quality and size of the venues they'll be handing over. Of course BSA will charge the clubs a lease rate for the venue but that won't even the playing field.

North, Norwood, West and Woodville are not even close to being capable of setting up Associations. Not even close. Most of these clubs can't run Aussie Hoops programs without outside help. One of them tried setting up a miniball competition with BSA assistance and it didn't even last a Term. What does BSA plan to do in the North Western suburbs?

Sturt and Forestville may claim to be capable but my personal involvement in City South gives me grave concerns regarding their ability to do this. City South was their opportunity to show Domestic Leagues work, and in my opinion they've wasted that opportunity.

There is more then one way to move forward and the plan BSA (and in particular certain people within BSA and its committees) will not work in Adelaide. It simply will not work.

Reply #224393 | Report this post


HO  
Years ago

#224393

There are associations in this ountry that number less than 100 members (tiny country towns) that manage to run their own competitions in single court venues so why can't north, norwood etc.?

What is the problem, are you saying they are incompetent? Do they not have the personnel? Is it venue based?

Can someone list the clubs here in Adelaide and the number of courts each has at their disposal?

Reply #224397 | Report this post


LC  
Years ago

HO is right on the money.

Check the BV website for the governance details. Bulleen is an Association and competes in the VJBL as an Association, with the "Bulleen Boomers" their representative teams and in the senior representative competitions. Their domestic junior feeder club is "Bulleen-Templestowe Boomers" that competes in the EDJBA. Bulleen also run their other social competitions as well. Other Associations such as Eltham, Blackburn, Warrandyte, Doncaster etc are run the same way in the same competitions.

Reply #224398 | Report this post


S Club 7 Rock  
Years ago

#224393 You make some very intelligent and interesting points; however to point to city south as the reason why this type of model wont work is unfair.

The comp was originally set up under totally different circumstances and has stagnated some what due to lack of new teams which is the number 1 issue amongst players in the comp. They play the same teams week in, week out.

The other major problem is that it is only held on Sunday and normally late afternoon. I have never found any body involved with City South that are thrilled with this aspect of the comp.

The inclusion of one or two more clubs was a long term goal of City South. For one reason or another this has never happened, I believe to the detriment of the competition. It is ironic that the two clubs that it was hoped would join seem to have stagnated and lost a lot of ground in the last few years.The model can work. It just needs more teams than it currently has.

Most importantly, City South needs a strong commitment by both founding clubs to run the competition as was originally tabled.

An association style comp can work; however BA are dreaming if they think they can get this type of model up and running in 6-12 months, as I believe they think they can.

Try 3-4 years of detailed planning, then we may be ready...maybe.

Reply #224410 | Report this post


venuesmyfriends  
Years ago

Venuues my friends. Our games is dominated by venues and the massive capital costs to build them. Venues are a stranglehold on our sport in this state. BSA need to help clubs but clubs need to get their own venues. Most clubs spend $50-$60 K per yr in court hire alone.

If clubs get control of the venues, improve social comps and control the canteens its pretty easy to see the massive revenue opportunities. I am thinking that clubs could pull in 300-400 K revenue if they controlled venues. With that income 3-5Million for a stadium does seem more affordable to the clubs.

However the capital cost is the killer. A joint capital funding model needs to be developed by BSA for councils, schools, private investors and clubs to jointly fund the ownership of stadiums and include non-financial (IE social) returns to entice government and councils to invest in the model without demanding significant financial returns. The venues could be majority owned by clubs, in joint venture partnerships with the other parties. Councils and schools are not neccessarily in it for the profit and much of the required capital could be secured from these parties.

THen its just up to the clubs to run the business and cover the ongoing capital costs of the stadium.

Reply #224412 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

There is no way any venue would generate more then 100 k in revenue and probably closer to 50k.

Reply #224415 | Report this post


Ranting  
Years ago


Available hours

Monday 4pm - 6pm 9 games
6pm - 11pm 18 games

Tuesday 4pm - 6pm 9 games
6pm - 11pm 18 games

Wednesday 4pm - 6pm 9 games
6pm - 11pm 18 games

Thursday 4pm - 6pm 9 games
6pm - 11pm 18 games

Friday 4pm - 6pm 9 games
6pm - 11pm 18 Games

Saturday 8.30am - 1pm 21 games
1pm - 11pm 36 games

Sunday 8.30am - 1pm 21 Games
1pm - 11pm 36 games


For a 3 court stadium

Senior games
Maximum 72 games per week 72 x $27.67 per game = $1,992.24 per week x 45 weeks p.a. $89,650.08 p.a.

Junior games

Maximum 48 games per week 64 x $19.76 per game = $1,264.64 per week x 40 weeks p.a. $50,585.60 p.a.

Miniball
Maximum 60 games per week 60 x $17.34 per game = $1,040.40 per week x 36 weeks p.a. $37,454.40 p.a.


Miniball $37,454.40

Junior $50,585.60

Senior $89,650.08

Total $177,690.08

That doesn't include player or team registrations/nominations, camps, school holiday events or bar and canteen revenue.

For a 3 court stadium at capacity like Wayville of Pasadena, you would be looking at over $250K.

Reply #224418 | Report this post


venuesmyfriends  
Years ago

Ummm:
pa... for a 3-4 court venue with a descent canteen and "cafe" area.

40 - 50 K district training

200K in social comps. 15 players per game on 3 courts, 1 game per hour, 9 bucks to play. 6 hours x 6 days per week. 42 weeks of the yr. Well that comes to $600K but it would be at least $200K

250K in canteen revenue probably closer to 350 K if it was licensed.

Reply #224420 | Report this post


venuesmyfriends  
Years ago

Ranting, where do you get the per game figures from. $27 per game, wouldnt it be more???

Reply #224421 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Good points made by many on here and do show that the Association model works in other States and also the shortfalls we currently face.

If BSA were to go to an Associations model right now even our strongest clubs would say that they need 18months to get ready so what about our other poor clubs that are purely volunteer based.

I believe that just because everyone else does an Association model (or form of) doesn't mean it is best for us. To move to an Association model is very hard from where we are. Maybe start making some steps towards it.

BSA should stop giving Church (who pay no affiliation fees) its prime Saturday afternoon slot. This should be used for social competitions. Then District can move to only 3 divisions. Once this starts to progress then there could be a view to move towards an Association model. Also Country (once again dont come under BSA banner properly) should not be able to monopolise the stadiums for their weekend carnivals as this would interrupt the competition.

These social competitions could be aimed at Juniors on a Saturday afternoon and hopefully allow more people to remain in the sport.

If basketball in SA doesn't go to an Association model then they could look at other sports for models that might work. For example AFL/SANFL works and before anyone jumps down my throats I know they are a bigger sport. But currently basketball is diluted in numbers and skills with too few strong clubs. Zoning and rulings need to be put in place as no one benefits from having only 2-3 strong clubs. The best players should all be playing Div 1 and making that competition strong so our juniors and playing quality games each week thus making us stronger nationally. Not having some decent players player div 2 or 3 at one club just because they moved there due to better management (once again dont fire up at me - I am just saying in the ideal world, which works in SANFL and toher sports).

Some better investigation of what works in other sports in SA rather than what other basketball associations do could actually prove more appropriate given where basketball in SA is now and how we can move forward. Lack of venues and lack of viably strong clubs makes it very hard to move to an Association model currently.

*I have tried not to take into account any personalities that may or may not exist in the Association rather look at it from a strategic direction ignoring someone or groups who may hold it back

Reply #224425 | Report this post


Ranting  
Years ago

Low side estimation with reasonable priced competiton.

Miniball Income $24 per team = $48 per game

1 court 2 courts3 courts
Cost Refs $14 $14 $14

Door $10 $5 $3.33

UIC $10 $5 $3.33

Total $34.00 $24.00 $20.66

Profit $14.00 $24.00 $27.34

Junior Income $34 per team = $68 per game

Costs Refs $20.00 $20.00 $20.00

Door $10.00 $5.00 $3.33

UIC $15.00 $7.50 $5.00

Total $45.00 $32.50 $28.33

Profit $23.00 $35.50 $39.67

Seniors Income $45 per team = $90 per game

Costs Refs $24.00 $24.00 $24.00

Door $10.00 $5.00 $3.33

UIC $15.00 $7.50 $5.00

Total $49.00 $36.50 $32.33

Profit $41.00 $53.50 $57.67

Reply #224426 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Ahhh, good to see someone bring in the old "zoning" chestnut - ensuring laziness can continue...

Reply #224429 | Report this post


S Club 7 Rock  
Years ago

Zoning!

Well there goes anymore intelligent debate; take it away guys.

Reply #224446 | Report this post


HO  
Years ago

the general view is that you can generate 150k + per court per annum provided that court is used for competitions and provided you max out the use of those courts for competitions....so

- you play all day Saturday
- you start play at 4pm not 5pm weekdays
- you run 10pm games
- you run 45 minute slots for juniors not 50 or more
- you only ever run 2 week final series
- in juniors, all teams play finals and classify right so you have play-offs for 11th and 12th eg
- you charge a door entry to EVERYONE and then charge the team a game fee or, players pay on an individual basis to play ($6.00 for juniors/$9.00 for seniors)

Anyone running a 3 court stadium run with a business like approach can turn it into a cash cow.

I know a Melbourne association paying $40 - $50 per hour court hire at all of their courts and they are rolling in cash. (they hire private school gyms in the hawthorn/kew area)

Reply #224453 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

HO,

I think you need re work your figures.

1. Stadiums are not used full time all year round Holdidays public holidays, long weekends all stay empty.

2. Did you add your insurnace costs?
3. $40-$50 per hour is ridiculous and i know that there are other locations that a lot cheaper than this. Also you will never get that rate in Adelaide.
4. I think might find after overheads that amount if you could get it would not be as high.

Reply #224456 | Report this post


LC  
Years ago

HO quoted the Hawthorn BA in Melbourne, and they do in fact pay for some courts such as Reyton Girls School in Kew and Melbourne Girls College at a rate of more than $40 per hour to hire those courts.

I know of other Associations that may just $18 per hour for some other courts in outer suburban areas as well.

However around $26 to $30 mark is what many Associations in VIC pay for their court hire.

This thread started talking about revenue only, and yes you need to add in expenditure.

The fact is if venue's and/or competitions are run proparly as a business entity, then there is a lot of money there to be made.

Reply #224459 | Report this post


S Club 7 Rock  
Years ago

There is a current SA club paying $50k per year in court hire at 1 venue.

Reply #224466 | Report this post


HO  
Years ago

#224456

I was talking revenue, not profit in refering to the 150k. Of course there is insurance and lighting and referees fees and cleaning and all that stuff. But on the income side i have not factored in player registrations, team registrations, casual court hire etc.

And the 150k+ factors in school holidays etc. Aggressive associations maximise their use of these...they use the first and last saturday for comps, they run camps, senior competitions continue through school holidays etc.

Most associations use their courts at least one long weekend per year for tournaments, and generate extra revenue. the eltham tourney is a classic for that - they use heaps of courts all over melbourne on the Australia Day weekend. I know a medium size country association that last year netted 40k on a tournament.

Depending on the deal some associations do not pay court hire... some pay an annual fee to their council. Some as high as 20-30k per court per annum, such as low as $1.00 per annum per court.

BTW i know of two venues in Vic charging over $50.00 per hour for court hire. They are exceptions but the point about court hire costs is that Hawthorn, even with very significant coirt hire costs in most of their venues, make very good money.

Reply #224467 | Report this post


HO  
Years ago

s club 7 rock...

how many courts at the venue? do they control the canteen? are they responsible for cleaning and maintenance?

You can just look at 50K and say thats a lot until you know what that actually means..

Reply #224468 | Report this post


S Club 7 Rock  
Years ago

It is the cost per year to hire an extra venue apart from their home stadium in which they run their own canteen.

Reply #224470 | Report this post


Accountant  
Years ago

Ranting games till 11pm on Saturday and Sunday?? Come on be serious. Canteens taking 250 000? i don't think so. As prcies go up for everything else canteen spending is the first thing that will go. I think you guys have never run a business or are in fantasy land. Perhaps through the boom of basketball you might have a chance but now days not likely. It is all very well to hope that you will say that you will fill stadiums but i think you unrealistic in what you are saying. i am sure it happens in interstate but it will not happen Adeladie. Population is not big enough.

Reply #224489 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Accountant,

What is the difference in population between Adelaide and Perth?
Perth has a very succesfull association based competition.

Reply #224501 | Report this post


Jack Toft  
Years ago

501, why do you think the WA system it so successful?

Reply #224503 | Report this post


Pffft  
Years ago

Accountant - remind me not to see you when I do my tax.

Reply #224513 | Report this post




 

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