see what happens - there is a lot of possibilities - melbourne crowds are the biggest concerns at this point of time

per capita and compared to former days - they seem to have regressed

I think a big reason wmy crowds are down is because there is only one team, if that makes sense. Melbourne enjoyed a huge cross-town rivalry and the Giants/Magic/Titans had a massive following in the 90's and early 00's.

A second team with a link to the old Titans may be just what the NBL needs

Not sure about this one...

The one team they already have isn't the strongest finacially going around, the crowds are average to say the least given the calibre of the Tigers (you would think any team with Bradtke, Gaze, Copland, Thomas should be able to pull a crowd).

I would rather see a Tasmanian team (with the support of the whole state) before another dud Melbourne team.

Does the NBL need another Saints/Magic/Giants (I forget the number of mergers and name changes) team?? I don't think so, but given the NBL, things wouldn't surprise me.

Tassie team would be good.

Damn,

Forgot those Titans merger.....thanx Doc.

But remember the late 80's and early 90's were the boom years of the NBL. Free to air tv, D-Train and Maccy Dee's, D-Train's reebok pumps, NBL cards, NBA cards were booming, geez, even a NBA game on Channel 2. Basketball was the bomb!!!!

I know this is gonna hurt me saying this, but does the NBL perceptions and standing in the eyes of the community vary in how well the games are supported in Melbourne and Sydney.

I remember in the boom times, Melbourne and Sydney were packing the stadiums to the rafters with spectators, the league was booming at a huge rate. In recent times these same places have been very average in relation to support (on court they have been well above average, damn that bought tears to my eyes saying that) reflecting the poor stance that the NBL has in the community.

Let's face it, only die-hard fans now attend games. In the boom time, going to the game was the 'in thing' to do and place to be seen.

Apparently this rumoured team would have no ties to the previously "sitting out a season" Giants.

I, too, would like to see a Tasmanian team. Tasmania United or something corny like that, sharing some games between Launceston and Hobart.

Stiffy could go back to being their franchise player.

Whatever happens, another NBL team means 10 more paid players, a couple more coaches, and so on.

I've also heard rumours of a Tasmanian team, and there is supposed to be a Gold Coast team re-entering the competition (I had heard originally for the 05/06 season, but this seems to have died down)

TR -- most of the big attendance records (15k or so people) featured Melbourne teams or cross-Melbourne rivalries. They need to work out exactly what has changed (different venues, older players now, no NBA in the media, etc) and set about rectifying each one of those point by point.

Sydney have gone back to back and have a huge population, but West Sydney struggles to get a crowd and after this season are likely to have trouble retaining a few supporters I would guess.

I have absolutely no idea on how the NBL could get back to the 'golden years'. Maybe it has been in the doldrums for too long and we will never the those days again.

Yeah, sport runs on rivalries, nothing is better than your team kicked the shite out of your arch nemises, but remember, sport rivalries also have tradition and history.

Carlton v Collingwood.....tradition and history

Collingwood v Essendon....tradition and history

6ers v Wildcats.........tradition and history

6ers and Adelaide crowd v Shane Heal......tradition and cause Heal is a tool...

Crows v Power....... old Port Adelaide mentality works here.... either hate them or love them...... Go Crows!!!!

I'm sure that a second Melbourne team would add some cross-town biffo, but I'm not sure if it would add anything to the crowd numbers.

Even the Kings' crowds have been down.

A Tassie team would pull crowds just because it would be their only team, apart from cricket, in a national comp.

If anyone has been up to Cairns you will see what I mean. Even in the first few losing seasons the support, both in crowd numbers and in corporate dollars was massive.

I went up there in 2000 with Truslove who used to play for the Cairns Marlins and we went to a Perth game. Timmons dropped 30 and the Taipans lost by heaps, but the still had 2-3000 at the post-game function. Out on the town that night everyone wanted a piece of the action. Great atmosphere and support that I think could be replicated in Tassie

Doc, spot on, Townsville are the same.... mind you it may be all the sun.... does crazy things to people.

Same could be said for Tassie, all that cold, all huddled up in a stadium.... cold does weird things to the mind as well. All those different people in a stadium may actually increase the gene pool in Tassie...

On the other hand look at the old Newcastle Falcons. Same sort of 'satelitte city' thing, and they flopped, Gold Coast, same story, Cannons (Canberra supports only support a winning team and never get behind a team when it's down, trust me I live here).....

Would there be Magic/Titan/Giant fans in Melb who wouldnt be following the Tigers even if it is their only team in town?
I know if Port disappeared for some reason [shudder] there is no way I would support the Crows..... [sorry TR]

Maybe a second team there would lift numbers?

I believe the league will expand, how long and where is the question Rick B will have the answer for

Bring back the Tassie devils!

Maybe a country Vic team maybe on the cards if Bendigo have signed big imports for their CBA attack then maybe good cause to base a team there and get the Country v Metro thing going too.

Hobart fans stopped going when they changed stadiums. I think the tick price went from $10 to about $30 per person back in the day. that would be like paying $50 to see the sixers now.

The team folded soon after.

what about geelong...last season they averaged almots 2000 people to their abl games.....put in a couple of big name players, and now the team is playing in the national league....and before you know it...teh crowd os 3000 plus.
i dont think another melbourne team is the answer.....could be wrong...i would give anything to return to the glory days...i have a lot of faith in ricky b, as he has done some good things to our league already....come on ricky....take us back to the boom!!

Tassie sells out all the AFL matchs played in Launceston. They have even increased the capacity of the stadium could only hold 9K when they played the first game in tassie and now they have increased it to 18K.

The Island state is crying out for National sport so this would have to be an avenue the NBL must explore.

Initially I thought that an increase in teams would lead to a lower quality of player. i.e., benchies from current teams would become starters in new teams, and development players would become benchies.

But the more teams there are, the more import spots available and the more highly-paid jobs up for grabs. Would likely see players like James Harvey return.

Bring in a Geelong team, one from Tasmania. One in the Gold Coast. That's 14. Get one in Singapore and maybe another in HK. 16 teams. Potential for two 8-team conferences. THEN an 8 team playoff schedule would work.

You could have South and North as the conferences:

SOUTH: Perth, Adelaide, Tasmania, Melbourne, Geelong, New Zealand, West Sydney, Wollongong.

NORTH: Singapore, Hong Kong, Brisbane, Cairns, Townsville, Hunter, Gold Coast, Sydney.

Pretty weird division across Sydney, but it'd have to be done somewhere.

Melbourne must have a second team in town. There are simply too many people in the basketball wilderness to only have the Tigers. Just a quick look on Ozhoops to see the amount of people posting with Giants or Magic signatures who swear never to go to Tigers games will give an indication as to the potential in Melbourne. Think of the hardcore fans like Dicko (poster who used to frequent Sixer's Lounge during the Titans days) who have seemingly disappeared off the face of the earth during all the mergers. The city still attracts big basketball tours such as AND 1 events and certainly the interest in basketball is there, just a connection with a community has to be raised. In any case, the Titans, Magic and North Melbourne Giants all seemed to be getting nice enough crowds during their final days, it just seemed like overspending and poor management was the team's downfall. Would love another team there.

Basman, while a team in Geelong would be great, is the stadium still in the shocking "half-finished" state it was when the Supercats left the competition back in 1996? If so the team could never get crowds of 3,000 people or more as the stadium only holds 2,200. Don't really think that is a great franchise ready to occur there.

Gold Coast is promising. New 6,500-seat convention centre built (remember the reason Gold Coast left the league was stadium troubles more than anything) with a growing population around 650,000 people, the Gold Coast is prime for a national sporting team to enter. I'm sure there is enough potential for sponsors' dollars as well. In any case if the stadium is considered to close to Brisbane maybe the Bullets can move back to Boondall (located on the Northern side of Brisbane) to create two different identities, (Brisbane has been around the sell-out mark every match after in the new year in any case, and moved to Boondall for the finals last year in any case).

Hobart would be great as well, a 4,500-seat stadium ready to play in. But wasn't the problem back in the day sponsorship dollars more than anything? Would they be financial enough to recruit a playing roster fit to compete? I'm sure the NBL looked into the option back in 1997 when Cairns and West Sydney were given licenses and maybe decided then it wasn't viable.

Unless Oasis occurs West Sydney look like a virtually dead franchise to me. Far from the teams supposed fan base, the club plays in a stadium that is a relic of the eighties and with two grand final appearances hasn't been able to connect with a market. Someone said on Ozhoops the leagues club has given them funding for the next two years but I'm guessing after that they have a big question mark hanging over their future funding unless they become financial in a hurry.

Singapore is something I would like to see soon. The number of tickets actually sold was around 6,000 I think I heard, with over 7,000 people attending. Grow a fan base for a Singapore team (only problem is it will be full of mainly Australian players) and the market of potential Asian sponsors opening up will be great for the league. Maybe get another team in another viable Asian city, (Hong Kong like Isaac said) and with potential for growing viewing audience on ESPNStar, etc is the way I can see the league moving forward. Just the flow of dollars from Asian sponsors in new markets where the sport isn't considered second rate (maybe next to soccer but at least not a second tier sport) may have flow-on effects in Australia with increased exposure, more intense cross-country rivalries and increased crowds. Going down this route I think the boom may come back to the league.

My ideal set-up:

1. Adelaide
2. Perth
3. Melbourne Tigers
4. Second Melbourne team.
5. Sydney
6. New Zealand
7. Wollongong
8. Newcastle (their crowds are on the way up and the franchise is looking healthy compared to a year ago).
9. Brisbane
10. Townsville
11. Cairns
12. Gold Coast
13. Singapore
14. Second Asian team.

Eight team final series would look much better under that line-up. I left West Sydney out, as I doubt they would survive. Some cashed-up guys from either Wellington or Christchurch were talking of wanting another team in NZ after 3 years but I'm not sure if support demands it, (although apparently the Auckland crowd is more fickle than others). Certainly Christchurch gets enough people to New Zealand national games in the 7,800-seat stadium they have. So maybe a look should be given to these other possible franchises:

1. Hobart
2. Christchurch
3. Geelong (if they improve their stadium).
4. Wellington (the nation's capital but I think the local basketball stadium only holds 3,500 so maybe once again not really an option).

DC and anyone else, what do you think of the idea of having more teams, even if they aren't drawing huge crowds?

I mean, the NBL is apparently ignoring eager clubs because they have sub-3500 stadiums, while teams like the Tigers and Razors wouldn't even be drawing that many.

The Giants played with a budget team last year and weren't all that terrible. Tasmania could come in with a $500k team and win a few games.

There are a lot of underutilised players out there -- Wheeler, Stiff, Rashad Tucker, etc.

Singapore and Hong Kong would be a great way to expand. Would someplace like Bendigo or Ballarat be able to find the corporate funding etc etc to support a NBL frachise??? Country Vic squad will appeal.

Definately Tassie needs a franchise, and I would like to see more. Would a forth Queensland team be viable???

Wasn't there a rumour floating around about a second Adelaide team as well???

A second SA side was an option a few years ago but wasn't there talk of a group of businessmen interested in buying the 36ers licence and play out of the entertainment centre, with Phil Smyth being poached as coach

TR, Bendigo Bank are Major Sponsors of Geelong & Essendon (who are affiliated with Bendigo team in the VFL)in the AFL and are very keen to support Regional areas, so they would be a major corporate possibility. Stadiums at Bendigo & Mildura are both known as Bendigo Bank stadiums, so they already have an involvement in Basketball. I know that the Chairman of the Geelong SEABL side is also an executive of Bendigo Bank.
There are a number of other large businesses operating out of Bendigo (Woollen Mills, Rivers Clothing), so they might be able to with the right management in place.

I went to the Australia vs New Zealand game in Geelong a couple of years back and the place was jammed full and the "sellout" crowd was actually 1850. That included people upstairs above the players benches.

You can't support a million $ plus business in a stadium like that with 16 games perhaps a chance of playing finals.

You have to have the capacity, like Wollongong do, to average more like 3000 per game and then make a killing on some really big games. Even then I don't think they make money.

I think Ballarat's venue is actually smaller than Geelong in size, while Bendigo is a little larger.

Correct me if wrong,

didn't Hobart only have one winning season?

1987 (14-12)

Rick Hodges, Jerry Denard, Steve Carfino etc.

I have heard that the Dandenong Ranges are looking to make a birth in the NBL like they have previously done in the wbnl. This was from a good source. Its more like a bid for it to be done. Know of another bid occurring though.

BASQUETEBOL..... your point being????

As they say in the Field of Dreams......"if you build it they will come....."

Tassie to get the next franchise, establish it and then look at a second Victoria team.

What happens to a licence once a franchise is demolished. Does it go back to the NBL and they hold it waiting for someone to purchase it, or does it remain with the last 'owner' whoever that is...Would a new Tassie franchise have to deal only with the NBL, or would they have to negiotate with the person who owned the Tassie Devils licence???

Just wondering due to what happened to the Cannons here in Canberra...

My point is basketball in Tas has flopped before and with so many clubs unable to make a profit in the NBL how long would a Tas team last.

Melbourne deserves a seccond team because not everyone is a Tigers fan and Melbourne acually produces players does Tas?

Dandenong would be ideal with so many teams there would already be a support base.

You talk about tradition and history Tasmania do have a traditon and history one of losing.

With sponsorship money and bulk spectators in Asia should the NBL be wasting what little recources they have developing a team at the edge of the earth!

The NBL is already wasting money by supporting a team at the edge of the earth, it's called New Zealand. If they are gonna chuck money at NZ, they may as well chuck money at Tassie. I'm sure at the end of the day, the greater exposure that the NBL will gain by playing in NZ will pay-off.

Each team is going to struggle early on, but with Hunter's win over Perth, they are in the play-offs, not bad for a franchise in it's second year (yes, the finals format does help). How long did it team Townsville and Cairns to make it.

I would rather see a team in Tassie and have a whole state getting behind it. I'm all for Melbourne getting a second franchise, but I would prefer Tassie to be given the chance before Melbourne

Melbourne doesn't deserve a second team before Tassie, they had the Giants only last season.... where are they now....GONE!!!!!!!!!! If people actually supported them, and got behind them, putting ar$es in seats then why did they fold?????

Oh, but if you don't support the Tigers or the Giants, then geez, we had better create another franchise so all the Giant-haters and Tiger-haters can attend a game. We can then all watch it go bust....again.....Not the image the NBL need at the moment.

Tassie has only ever had one team in the NBL, Melbourne teams come and go.....Saints, Magic, Giants, Titans, Giants (again), and yes I know that Geelong isn't Melbourne, but I add them to the equation. Another Victorian team gone.......

My tradition and history spill was talking about rivalries, not a franchise being seen as a winning club or losing club....

Anonymous (#21774),

Great way to dismiss a potential franchise in one line. A 6,500 seat stadium, potential sponsorship by the casino attached to it and a cashed-up population of 650,000 people. I'm sure there is room for a fourth Queensland team. In any case the Rollers were still getting close to 2,500 with a terrible stadium and record in 1996, so I'm sure with the increased population there is room for another team quite easily.

Isaac, I've always felt the more teams the better. Increased exposure for sponsors, more local media coverage growing the sport and the ability to call the game the only true national sporting league would be advantages. I guess it all comes down to what people want at the end of the day. Do people want to see a 11 to 14 team league with crowds of around 5,000 or so each in nice stadiums and good standard of players on each team, or would people rather see a much bigger league that has it's talent spread out a little more thinly?

Certainly there is plenty of good players that the league has lost because in Australia they would be a third option scorer on a team and would just miss out on a really big paycheque, (I would be guessing after the best couple of players on each team the salaries would drop fairly drastically). Maybe with a bigger league with talent spread further these players would become franchise players at a smaller club and would return to Australia. I am talking about players the likes of Damien Ryan, Frank Drimic, Wade Helliwell, Axel Dench, James Harvey, etc. So from players point of view more teams is always a great idea.

I guess the NBL is admitting teams with an eye on the future growth of the league and demanding that they play in a stadium in which they can foster crowd growth and reach budgets. Melbourne would be averaging more than 3,000 I feel if they could have been able to cover the cost of playing in Melbourne Park (heard it was between $30,000 and $50,000 a game to play a few years back) and certainly recently the near capacity crowds are indicating that they may need a new stadium (Andrew Gaze indicated a while back that they plan to outgrow their current stadium sooner rather than later with plans to play finals games at Rod Laver Arena). West Sydney is a disaster in any case and I don't expect to see that franchise to last so comparing any new potential franchise crowds against it may be a mistake. What also must be remembered is a bad stadium can doom a franchise. The Giants were averaging more than 2,200 people a game before the change of stadium, yet the next season they only sold out a game once (after the Catt incident) and the previous game only 947 people attended the match! There were a lot of problems with that franchise but surely playing in a cut-cost suburban stadium didn't help.

I guess it all comes down to covering the budget in terms of entering a team. If the NBL allows a few regional teams in that could only get crowds of 3,000 max (I would expect the teams crowds to be sell-outs in regional areas) then the salary cap may have be lowered to make the teams competitive. Would the players oppose this? Surely it wouldn't hurt the market value of the players. I mean if you add up to five or so regional teams and lower the cap just by $60,000 or so the market value of players should stay the same as the talent is spread more thinly and players become more valuable despite the cap lowering. If the players agree to this maybe it might become viable.

TR, once again except for the Giants most of them Melbourne teams had pretty decent crowds. Another Melbourne team is a must I feel before too many people are lost from basketball forever. A Melbourne United sort of concept, bringing in all the people from the basketball wilderness. The Giants had no identity. If you were a North Melbourne Giants fan you probably would have never gone to a Titans game as it was filled with players from a team you hated, and played the same style of game. If you were a Titans fan you probably would have jumped off when BG was sacked and the culture changed again. That left exactly who left to follow the club? And then even those who stuck with the club are rewarded with overpriced tickets in a small dodgy stadium with a cut-cost roster. It isn't rocket science to figure out why no one attended matches.

Still I agree that a $500,000 Hobart team can work in crowd numbers. A second Melbourne team can work. A Gold Coast team can work. A Singapore team can work. How much does Mildura, Bendigo, Ballarat, Albury/Wodonga stadiums hold? Could a North West Victoria franchise work hosting a game in a few different cities each, with sponsorship from all, based in the town with the best stadium?

In any case, any expansion is good.

Also, it'd be easier to fly Adelaide - Singapore (straight through) than it is Adelaide - Cairns (often 2 or more stopovers, and stopovers when you're flying suck).

I'm not saying no to another Melbourne team, I'm saying that the Tasmanian team should come before another team in Melbourne....that's all.

Some more points re a Gold Coast team re-entering.

The new entertainment complex (right on the Gold Coast Hwy in front of Jupiters) looks pretty damn good (I was there in October).

The population is now a lot less transient (there is a majority of permanent residents..possibly to add another 2 soon), and the population has become a lot less.

Also, you could cater to the "Asian" side of the market, which the NBL is trying to promote to. Anyone who has been to Gold Coast knows how huge the Asian tourist market is.

Would take a not even that smart thinking business person to organise these tour groups to also go to a well presented basketball game.

Expand the audience..and when they start to expand further into SE Asia (it's not a matter of IF, more a matter of WHEN), there would be a bit of a base of people who are thinking "we saw basketball in Queensland, we would love to see more".

But, given the AFL success in Tas, I think that would need to be a priority, even if the Giants license is relocated there.

And TR, hows "The Glove"?? :)

No way............. How do you know about 'The Glove'......

I've been gone from Adelaide for about 8 years now, and have only been back for 2 very short visits.........

Yogee, your scaring me......