the rule is clearly written, a player may not occupy the lane for more than 3 seconds.

The interpretation as I can see is, a player may occupy the space as long as they like provided the shoot immediately when they get the ball.
If they pass it off or make exagerated moves they will be pinged for a 3 second violation.

The 3 second count is reset when a shot is attempted, this however is a bit grey as well as a shot attempt is enough to warrant a reset of the 3 second count but not the shot clock. (the ball must hit the ring for that) this interpretation it to avoid the worst statement in all of basketball
"No shot, 3 in the key"

I would say that referees have too much to police, with 3 in the key being low on the list of priorities, most games could have 10 times the amount of 3 second violations than are called but that would really slow the game down.

I would like to see the 3 second rule enforced as follows:
Player a can be in the key as long as they like but if an advantage is gained by that position then they should be called for the violation. example: I think that a team that passes the ball to a player that has been in the key for more than 3 seconds and that player gains control of the ball they should automatically be called for the violation no matter what they do with it.

dude shut up man. no coaches no the rule. i'm a ref and the rule has been the same for years and it pisses me off when coaches and dickhead spectators yell out "how long?". just shut the fuck up if you don't know the rule for fuck sake.

The rule clearly states it is only a 3 second violation if the offensive player is in the key for 3 seconds and must gain an advantage whilst being in there. if he is standing in the key doing nothing, then it is not a god dam violation.

so how do u define getting an advantage?

i've coached against teams which have camped their biggest kid in the middle of the key so he can grab rebounds. yes, we did a rubbish job of boxing out, but isnt being 3 inches taller than everyone else and standing in the middle of the key an advantage (i was told its not by the ref who had the game)

Here is the rule, as outlined in the official 2008 FIBA document (which you can see here):

----
Article 26: Three Seconds

26.1 Rule
26.1.1 A player shall not remain in the opponents' restricted area for more than three (3)
consecutive seconds while his team is in control of a live ball in the frontcourt and
the game clock is running.

26.1.2 Allowances must be made for a player who:
" Makes an attempt to leave the restricted area.
" Is in the restricted area when he or his team-mate is in the act of shooting and
the ball is leaving or has just left the player's hand(s) on the shot for a field goal.
" Dribbles in the restricted area to shoot for a field goal after having been there
for less than three (3) seconds.

26.1.3 To establish himself outside the restricted area, the player must place both feet on
the floor outside the restricted area.
----

There are no qualifications or alternate interpretations listed in the official Basketball Australia notes, or in the FIBA interpretations document. So the onus is on the last commenter to back up their statement that "if he is standing in the key doing nothing, then it is not a violation." I see no mandate for that in the official rules. If there is a different document that SA District basketball uses, then please provide a link to it if possible.

Brown Penis, do you think that your response may be a little over the top? I think my answer provides a description of the rule in clear easy to understand language, I think that the interpretation is clearly stated. What part of my explaination caused a concern to you that I should "shut up" and could you please explain your statement:

"The rule clearly states it is only a 3 second violation if the offensive player is in the key for 3 seconds and must gain an advantage whilst being in there. if he is standing in the key doing nothing, then it is not a god dam violation."

because after reading the post by hereschenes I dont see how this is "Clearly stated" also the word Damn is spelt with a "N" unless you are refering a way of blocking water; Moose82 also makes a good point at which point does a player being camped in the key become an advantage? when they get the ball? When they get an offensive rebound? when they attract the help defense away from the ball?
I look forward to reading your very educational response as you are clearly a highly qualified referee. I just hope you have a chance to answer before you have to rush out to referee your ABL match tonight!!

26.1.3 To establish himself outside the restricted area, the player must place both feet on
the floor outside the restricted area.

brown penis, it's clowns like you that remind us why most in the SA basketball fraternity have so little respect for some referees.

What a ridiculous way to carry on.

Also, it seems that according to the official FIBA doxumnet, it is YOU who doesn't understand the rule.

Oh, and good luck with graduating from the green shirt program.

Wow, how's my typing!! That should of course read "document"!!

Damn, or for brown penis, dam!!

the rule gets too complicated for the zebra's when the player who is in the key set's a screen...no advantage to themselves, but a definite offensive advantage...

but brown penis sounds like he found the wrong hole! :-)

Thanks all. Wow. Brown penis - a little defensive there - maybe you were the ref I questioned? The response I had received from the ref was very similar to your interpretation about 'gaining an advantage while being there'. However as 'herechenes' shows there is nothing in the rule book re this. Where does this 'advantage' interpretation come from and what authority is there to apply it?

Happy to play by the rule - IF it exists!

Without sounding precious, Brown penis your tone of reply was uncalled for. This is a great forum and would be used more by all it the standard wasn't lowered so frequently by offensive and uncalled for responses.

Brown penis - please refer me to the rule book which contains your rule/interpretation. I am looking forward to reading it as I was directed.

You would think a tall player camped in the key for more than 3 seconds would be a great advantage

I think the concept of advantage/disadvantage originated from article 47.3, especially the last dot point for 3 second rule. Advantage/disadvantage is also in the NBL points of emphasis. Although it doesn't state it in the 3 second rule, nearly all the rules are reffed with advantage/disadvantage which is where the interpretation of 'not 3 seconds until they gain an advantage' argument comes from.

Advantage/Disadvantage applies to both Fouls and Violations.

3 seconds is a violation, hence adv/dis applies.

Thanks for the clarifications re. the adv/dis article. Although, the full-text reads:

47.3 When deciding on a personal contact or violation, the officials shall, in each instance, have regard to and weigh the following fundamental principles:
...
" Consistency in the application of the concept of 'advantage/disadvantage', whereby the officials should not seek to interrupt the flow of the game unnecessarily in order to penalise personal contact that is incidental and which does not give the player responsible an advantage nor place his opponent at a disadvantage.

But in the case of 3 seconds, rebounding is a major advantage all the time you are in offence.

I agree... and even if there is a case for a non-advantage-gaining three-second camper, it seems ludicrous for a referee to have to interpret whether that's the case or not, when they have to be watching for so many other things at the same time. But, just trying to clarify whether the rules even allow for it or not in the first place.

The concept of rebounding is a difficult one, the 3 second count resets with the shot attempt and any rebound after that isnt affected by 3 second violation. there is a grey area here which is where I think everyone struggles. unless the rule is taken in Black and White and the concept of advantage/disadvantage is not used with this violation we will continue to have this debate.
I think another option with 3 seconds could be if a player maintains position in the key for 3 or more seconds the referee must give a warning "out of the key #15" if that player doesn't immediately leave the 3 second lane then they get called for the violation. No second chances

hereschenes

It states in the first line that its discussing personal contact & violations. The point s that you havent added discuss how fiba want the game called. They want the game to flow not be pulled up for every little thing that has no bearing on the contest. They call it "feel for the game".

In regards to 3 seconds it would be like the ball carrier standing in the centre cirle in his front court, dribbling the ball for 8 seconds doing nothing and a referee calling 3 seconds on an offensive player who happens to be just standing in the key. No advantage to anybody. Not having and effect on the game whatsoever.

hereschenes, I was referring to the last point in article 47.3, which states

"consistency in the maintenance of a balance between game control and game flow, having a 'feeling' for what the participants are trying to do and calling what is right for the game"

which gives a lot of room for interpretation of what constitutes an advantage for any rules, not just 3 seconds.

In regards to the rebounding situation, box the big player out well and 9 times out of 10 he/she will jump over the back of the defender and get a foul anyway

Thanks for the further clarifications. This is the whole section that is being referred to, for those who haven't read it:

47.3 When deciding on a personal contact or violation, the officials shall, in each instance, have regard to and weigh the following fundamental principles:

* The spirit and intent of the rules and the need to uphold the integrity of the
game.
* Consistency in the application of the concept of 'advantage/disadvantage', whereby the officials should not seek to interrupt the flow of the game unnecessarily in order to penalise personal contact that is incidental and which does not give the player responsible an advantage nor place his opponent at a disadvantage.
* Consistency in the application of common sense to each game, bearing in mind the abilities of the players concerned and their attitude and conduct during the game.
* Consistency in the maintenance of a balance between game control and game flow, having a 'feeling' for what the participants are trying to do and calling what is right for the game.

if u read wot ppl hav told u then u wil realise there is a rule in the rule book. u hav 2 understand the game to kno wen it shud be 3 seconds. u dont just call it coz he is in there 4 3 seconds

Unfortunately woop woop's english is terrible but he basically has it in a nutshell.

The other thing you may have noticed is the more you scream and yell for three seconds......the less the refs call it. Why? Because when they do call it after you have screamed and yelled is it looks like you have pressured them into the call.

I guarantee you if you scream lees you will get more. Scream more and you will get SFA!

Old thread I know, but the fact is, there are several ways an offensive team can gain an advantage by being able to take more than 3 seconds in the offensive keyway, and that is why the rule was introduce.

HOWEVER, there is a way that the defensive team can gain an unfair advantage if the officials are not given the ability to judge advantage/disadvantage and must call ever 3 second infraction - that is why the advantage/disadvantage rule was introduced - for that specific reason - to not DISADVANTAGE the offense,.

why am I re-raising this thread ??

- because I was told today that Nathan Wieland, in running their referee accreditation program, told the referees on my junior game, that they should ONLY call 3 seconds on a player when that players' team has DIRECTLY thrown that player the ball.

I simply cannot believe that this is the advice that young referees are given, talk about being set up for some serious sideline abuse.




but first - how offensive teams will gain advantage if 3 seconds are not called.



1) establish an advantageous rebounding position, and remain there until the shot is taken.

Many years ago a pair of WA referee at the Geralton easter carnival, told me that unless the ball was passed to the player, it was not a 3 second violation. So as the captain coach of the SA team, I subbed on one guard and all 4 bigs, played zone in def and had all 4 bigs take up as much time as they liked to box up around our offensive ring before having the single guard threw up a "shot" to be rebounded . After 8 straight points from 4 consecutive offensive putbacks, I called a time out and asked the refs if they wanted to start calling 3 seconds the old fashioned way - they did, and so did the opposition coach and team.


2) by being in the key for more than 3 seconds , the usual man to man "help" defence or Zone is PERMANENTLY deformed, and in a way that absolutely no defensive drill is designed to include/cover.

Instead of the offensive player needing to reset their count by moving out of the key ( as the rule explains), and thus giving the defence a chance to gain a better defensive position on that player, the entire defensive group have to adjust for the CONSTANT possibility of

a) a shot going up with a 210CM giant inside

b) a pass going to the same Giant, and the referee not having noticed the 3 count ( this does happen)

in both situations noting that the offensive player has been able ( by the other rules of basketball) to fully and totally "own" the space that they have occupied under the ring for the ENTIRE time of their teams possession.- ie they cannot be physically moved by the defence,



3) IF you could remain in the keyway for longer than 3 seconds , as long as you did not get passed the ball,, then there would be a great number of plays being run using multiple screens being set by a single player in , or around, the keyway. They would not have to receive the ball or even rebound , for this to be very effective. Instead all in keyway screen plays incorporate timing that allow players to re-set their feet outside the keyway to avoid a 3 second count.



4) IF you could remain in the keyway for longer than 3 seconds, as long as you did not get passed the ball, then you could run players inside the keyway whose only job was to block the best defensive re bounders out of rebounding position, and don't try to tell me that "wasting" an offensive player or two to keep a defensive rebounding monster player like Mark Davis off the boards would not be effective. You could use a far smaller player who would just constantly deny the taller defensive player position for a rebound, allowing your own big to dominate



FINALLY - The rule itself says that advantage is possible.

Thus it is reasonable to argue that if it was the intention of the rule to recognise that the ONLY advantage that an offensive player had in being in the keyway was the possibility of receiving a pass, then the rule could simply state that any player remaining in the keyway past 3 seconds who received a pass will cause a turnover of possession.That is a nice and simple rule with no great enforcement problems IF that was the only advantage to be gained by being in the key way, but it is not. The simple fact that the rule STATES that there is advantages to be gained means that there are more than one situation (ie catching a pass) where such an advantage can be gained.




The ACTUAL reason that the advantage/disadvantaged rule was applied to the 3 second count over 20 years ago - was to enable officials the choice to NOT call a 3 second count on an offensive player whose ONLY intention and action is to exit the keyway, but who is NOT going to do it within 3 seconds, for reasons other than their own intent.

IE to call 3 seconds on a player who has turned to exit the keyway but is having their exit blocked by other players, and who is neither attempting to receive the ball, or set a screen, or establish a rebounding position is CLEARLY disadvantaging the offensive team, and that call will provide an ADVANTAGE to the defensive team that is not within the spirit of the game.

( for the ancient historians amongst you, can you name the European coach/team, who drilled his team to "box in" offensive players in this way to make the officials call the 3 second violation (hint 1973)? - THAT is why advantage/disadvantage was originally introduced to the 3 sec violation

just some responses to above points.


"a player may occupy the space as long as they like provided they shoot immediately when they get the ball. " -

not correct - by establishing position for longer than 3 seconds , they AT LEAST give the player with the ball a longer time to read and react and to make a successfully pass to them - that is why the rule exemption uses a dribble-then-shoot example, as it is suggesting that the dribble and shot COULD be considered one action, commenced prior to the 3 second expiry.




"The rule clearly states it is only a 3 second violation if the offensive player is in the key for 3 seconds and must gain an advantage whilst being in there. (CORRECT) if he is standing in the key doing nothing, then it is not a god dam violation ( NOT TRUE)."

it is very hard to be STANDING in the keyway and NOT get an advantage of some sort, in fact , the belief that they are gaining an advantage is almost certainty why that player is staying more than 3 seconds in the keyway anyway. Mow - if you said they were actively moving OUT of the keyway - then it may not be a violation .




"the rule gets too complicated for the zebra's when the player who is in the key set's a screen...no advantage to themselves, but a definite offensive advantage."

not too complicated - if they are taught the rule correctly - that's a simple violation and should be called.




"I think another option with 3 seconds could be if a player maintains position in the key for 3 or more seconds the referee must give a warning "out of the key #15" if that player doesn't immediately leave the 3 second lane then they get called for the violation. No second chances"

at least in the 1980's -90's this was EXACTLY what was done by almost all of the FIBA badged officials.

There needs to be more calls on 3 secs.

There are too many "taller than normal" players who camp in juniors and I notice many teams always run with cutters who cut in the key, count 3 then leave, only to be replaced immediately with someone else.

That way, they always have a team member in thekey

"count 3 then leave, only to be replaced immediately with someone else.That way, they always have a team member in the key"

that's fine, the rule is there to make sure that the ONLY thing that each individual player is attempting to do by the end of their personal 3 second count is to get out of the keyway - for that individual to remain just standing there is still a violation that they are gaining advantage from.

It is the "camping" by an individual player that you refer to, that is the real problem.

In my experience, the ones that bring a tent are those who are super-tall players.

Can you reset your three seconds by stepping out over the base line or must it be within the playing court.

I think that does technically reset the count, but it falls under 'deliberately going out of bounds to gain advantage', which is also a violation.

When you are coaching a very young group of juniors and the key is like a can of sardines it can become frustrating for both teams, especially where kids are still learning the basics.

I tend to speak to the officials and just ask them to help out the game and the kids by warning them and it tends to do the trick.

Just say something like, 'Ref, can you help out these kids by clearing the key a little bit please, they aren't learning anything by just standing in there all game, thanks it will help if you call a 3 seconds every now and then!'

They usually get what you are trying to do and comply, should be no drama if you use the right approach.

With the more senior players or higher quality ball there are other issues, like defenders holding and players needing more than 3 seconds to get established. But I am afraid of opening up a Pandora's Box if we go down that whole track, so I will leave it there...