The only issue with having two Div 2 teams is that they must be run as two separate teams. One assumes that the two coaches get together and review who they have played, strengths weaknesses etc to help each other out. And for those Poindexters who say is doesn't happen, then those coaches are dumb coaches.
What are the rules regarding player movement?
there is a by law that caps second div 2 teams at 2 per club.
it's all being phased to one team per club over the next few years - but mark my words - we will have div 3 and 4 teams miles ahead of their group in div 3 and 4. 5. and div 2 will end up with only 6-7 teams as the smaller clubs struggle to field 2 teams and provide a div 2 team.
pro rel accross the board and capped at 2 teams per club per grade. last time i checked nobody got into the boomers, classics, world championships, nbl etc because they had been there at the start - so small clubs holding a right to a div 1 spot then not nominating a team in juniors is.........
"What happens in winter if a club has two teams in div 2 for summer. Do they only get one in winter or does it depend ?"
it will be results based - both teams need to perform - ie one would need to be in top 4 and the other in top 7 - if any of those criteria arent being met and a strong div 3 team / teams exists - they will be replaced - the decision would be starting to evident by now as summer is >50% over.
check the by laws - western can be eligible for div 2.
from what i understand provided a second div 2 is not nominated by a member club.
the litmus test for competitions committee is a poor performing pair of teams in div 2 from a member club.
so in my opinion if western are delivering strong results they could replace a POORLY performing second div 2 team from a member club - but that team would have to be 7-8th downwards and the first team not in top 3-4.
looking at the junior tables - there is one grade western have a huge % - it would be common sense to promote them.
my concern are really poor performances from memeber clubs being unrealistic in putting teams in too higher grades - look at the tables.
I think you will find the competitions committee keeps a good eye on things.
I think you are referring to Norwood's 3rd team in U14 boys 2 and also to their U16 Boys 3 team playing in Div 2.
I agree after seeing the U14's that Magic should be in and Norwood drop to 3's.
In U16's it is not so clear as there is no stand out team in Div 3's.
Pug is absolutely on the money - i thought the arrangement was Div 1 and 2 at west - yes the yshould get promoted but transform to a second west div 2 team - so become a "west 3"
if the competitions committee is consistent with their calls they will just swap the poorly performing second div 2 team with this western turned west team
i just looked at u14b tables - yes i see - the norwood 2 team is doing ok and norwood 3 right on the bubble - if the norwood 3 team can win their last games they should be right and finish 7th or so - but another loss or two will see them finish 8th or lower and open the door for the western 1 team - which should turn into a west 3 team.
silly thing is they all have better results than woodville 2 - who should be the real team heading for div 3.
just a bit more - the western / west amalgamation happened after the by laws - so I would not entertain a west 2, west 3 and a western 1 in div 2.
From what I understand in would be a west 2 and west 3 in div 2 (promoting the western team / players to div 2) and western would regroup with what was left in div 3-4
anon #081 - i think you will find bsa are in the know and watch results accross the board.
they would know exactly what teams are on the bubble already.
fact is the players are better off in an even grade and if it is div 1 or div 6 - so be it.
Our club was disadvantaged by the current rules last year. Don't break the rules change the rules. While we have rules and precedents to be fair to every club we must do what has happened in the past in these circumstances and that is drop the second Norwood team if they do not improve.
In the meantime work on the rules so a similar situation does not occur.
All I can say is if Norwood3 U16b goes down it's their own fault. The team selections have been in a word baffling. There are 2nd years in Norwood5 who played in the 4th team last year. Norwood5 just missed out on going up last round by 9 points, this round they are undefeated with over 180%. Norwood4 are winless and Norwood3 are just about as bad. There questions over how some kids have been promoted,(Div6 to Div2?). I know coach's recommendations are being ignored.
From what I see happening at Norwood I would suggest that if your objective is to play in the higher divisons there it is best to start at another club, participate in Norwood's domestic comp and I believe you get preferential treatment when you are lured across to Norwood.
Sometimes big does not mean best!!
"No club would over rule a coach........."
Have you ever coached?
I have coached a few years at district level and it's happened to me more than once, and I know of others it has happened too. Just get in the presidents good books and do some work for the club or get on the committee and move up the ranks. Div 6 one year Div 2 the next.
don't kick them when they are down - basketball karma comes around.
I think the persons in power have to make a realistic judgement call on gradings and the people involved have to come to the party.
woodville have every right to be there as with any other club.
I do not know that this is true but i was told that westerns girls could have nominated to play in div 2 for the summer season,but they declined the offer. A nd with that we can see that they are serving a load of BS to their members by not being allowed to play in at least div 2. Also heard that because of coaches commitments they wouldn't have him for div2,who then?So lack of coaches,that is experienced ones will make sure they never move forward.
It seems inevitable that woodville will fold because they have not got the numbers to improve. They had their chance with magic for better or worse and chose worse. They can't field competitive teams, can't field a div 1 team in every age group and resemble Centrals and Souths. All 3 clubs should disappear.
Jack your posts, eloquent as they may be, invariably contain the very criticisms that you complain about, so instead of posting on every thread on the site promoting your impressive basketball knowledge, be a little more selective on your choice of posts and spare us your sanctimonious and holier than thou treaties on why your a champion fella with impeccable judgment.
Is that wjat you call it when someone suffers from small man syndrome and needs to make themselves feel better by pull down the tall poppies because the club they are involved in is a basket case?
PS anon 895. You might be mistaking a serial poster with knowledgable poster.
Now what is to be done with western magic,they tried to form an association with woodville and that didn't work because you cant have a marriage where one side gets to dictate everything.Most of woodvilles members said they would get most players to go out west if that happened,ok so what was magic to do?Even if there was a merger most warriors said they would leave-probably scared for positions.In the end some narrow minded idiots would rather see magic a club of over 250 players cease to exist,now isn't that ripper for the sport!
Magic seem to have more teams than Woodville with their girls teams are on a par with Woodvile's . Both clubs should have stepped up, not down and should have merged, instead two women fueding and wanting to keep their nest's feathered oversaw the death of both clubs. West will be the only winner because Woodville are on the canvas, out of breath and about to get knocked out and Magic are being eaten without even knowing it.
Woodville should just get it over with. Go down to Div 3 or 4 or 5 and let Magic up.
As for Norwood letting go of two teams in Div 2.
You must be joking they are still winning games and above 4 other clubs.
Woodville you must not subject kids to getting smashed week after week it does nothing
Ladder After Round 9 POS TEAM P W L D B FF For Ag PC Pts
1 Norwood Flames 2 9 8 1 0 0 0 372 198 187.88 25
2 Sturt Sabres 3 9 8 1 0 0 0 452 257 175.88 25
3 Sturt Sabres 2 9 8 1 0 0 0 385 238 161.76 25
4 Forestville Eagles 2 9 6 3 0 0 0 382 279 136.92
5 Eastern Mavericks 2 9 5 4 0 0 0 326 350 93.14 19
6 Norwood Flames 3 9 4 5 0 0 0 320 291 109.97 17
7 West Adelaide Bearcats 2 9 4 5 0 0 0 338 312
8 South Adelaide Panthers 2 9 4 5 0 0 0 229 276
9 Southern Tigers 2 9 3 6 0 0 0 347 316 109.81
10 North Adelaide Rockets 2 9 2 7 0 0 0 256 387
11 Central Districts 2 9 2 7 0 0 0 209 318 65.72
12 Woodville Warriors 2 9 0 9 0 0 0 134 528 25.38
Here we are !!!!
I saw some of the games at Mars last Friday.
To me it seems that Woodville 14/1's are made primarily up from their first years from under 12's which drew with Norwood in the last couple of rounds of 12/1's Norwood at the time were hailed as the best team in the country but I guess that is not so when they lost the GF to Sturt.
If the club believes it is in the best interest of the club and the players to play Div 1 this year to give them a head start to next year then that is the club's choice.
As for Norwood 3 they struggled against a low team and only in the last few minutes did the score blow out. I think teams from 5 - 10/11 are much of the same in 14/2's
having a look at the tables - IMO the following teams are in the wrong division. Some of these need to go down or up a division.
This is purely a results based issue when teams have a vastly high or low % - been forfeiting games or extreme win or loss ratios.
Western 1 - would become a West 2 ?
Western 1 - ? would become a west team if moving up
Western 1- ? west
some divisions have positions only - no W/L or % for some reasons.
These are all teams that i feel need to either be promoted or relegated - due to big variations in results - and history says they usually get better or worse as the year go on.
Are Western Magic teams allowed to play in div2 as Magic or do they have to be a second West team?If its the second it is very confusing, shouldn't they get best players from both teams to represent west2 and make the rest West3?Where would they train,imagine at st Clair now that would be weird with 3 clubs training there then1
from what i understand -
If you are an existing western player of div 1 or 2 level - you play for west.
If you are a western player of div 3,4,5 standard you play for western.
If you are an existing west player of div 3,4,5 level you stay with your west team.
having said that - I am far from in the know - that is just what I understand to be the amalgamation plans.
(just a forum surfer - have nothing to do with either club)
Would there be anything to stop any of the small semi social fringe clubs or church from buddying up with an established club to beat the costs associated with district basketball?
Nothing against mergers at all but this BSA approved 'claytons job' does seem to be perplexing.
West Adelaide under 14 girls could benefit from a few extra good players,and i do not think they could beat anyone but they could have a good go at teams above them on the ladder now.western players choose to play for their club if they qualify for div2 because the fees are 1/2 of what the cats are paying,so they get the best of both worlds-higher div+small fees.
I'll be there
this has been hijacked a bit by the the woodville / western stuff.
But reality is whoever is responsible for overseeing the entries - be the clubs or BSA - some serious thought needs to go into accepting -
clubs that forfeit all the time so early in the 12 months (usually gets worse as the year moves on) and teams with either extremes of %s - ie teams with greater than 175% or lower than 30%.
they need to be balanced - our kids have played with the pro/rel and without - and we have had a more enjoyable season playing more balanced pro/rel games. it is only egos that have their noses put out of joint - 95% of the kids dont care if they are div 1 or 4 - they just want to play and feel good about their game.
fore sure -
a team that is great than 175% already in their divsion - will only get better by winter and should go up
a team that is less than 30% - should go down - they are in the wrong group - the kids will give up as the summer season moves to winter and not achieve anything.Put them in a grade where they can achieve something from their basketball not just try to avoid being thumped each week. Will turn into a muck around or pessimistic mind set as they deal with failure.
teams forfeiting regularly - wait til winter hits with the wet and cold and you have been thumped for 5 months already - time go wont get any better
some clubs need a reality check - and honestly say - we are not what our egos say - but let's build a team. The teams will stand for more if they achieve as a group. let's see if the competitions committee are up to it and some clubs junior programme managers are capable of a balanced view of where their programmes are at.
My experience has been a player feels better about their game in a top 4 div 3 or 4 team than a bottom div 1 or 2 team
True ,i would rather play in a lower division than loose by a bucketful every week.I would still zone teams,that is if you live in the area you get to play for the clubs within the zone,Some kids live in modbury and play for sturt-how stupid is that.Sorry country kids but i find it weird if you live in Kadina that you play/train district in Adelaide
2teams in any division is bullshit.I agree teams not performing should be relegated,but any clubs second team should not be allowed to move up to div2. Just look at some div 3 groups this year,they are shockers because clubs are allowed to move their 3rd team to div2.If you want this sort of crap invent a new super division of 22 teams where everybody plays everybody in a mega 9 month season.Some of those poor div 3 kids would be better off playing social,school bball.Its not fair to charge them full fees and get them to play in div el-shito.
But why stop at making Div 2 the even comp? Why not Div 1, Woodville and Centrals cop some shocking beltings and there are div 2 teams that would easily beat them, So if you argue Woodville Div 2 should be dropped you could also argue Div 1 should be dropped.
Maybe the relegation rule should include div 1 & 2 as well? Make the whole comp groups of 6 for five round x 3 times for summer. It's the only true way to get the best ten teams in div 1 and the next 10 in div 2.
I can hear the pins drop now.......
"The competition is a DISTRICT competition. This means the best kids from the DISTRICT competes in Div 1."
If what you say is true then each kid would be zoned to play in their "DISTRICT" club not move from club to club, where certain clubs get players to travel across town, or from the country.
District in name only....
Who's the fool....
I don't agree with zone ie only play for one club. You should have an option of two in your zone. This will allow some choice as you often get problems, a fresh start can save everybody and not destroy a child's desire to play sport.
It will also breed some competition between the two closest zoned clubs.
Limit transfers between the two clubs only.
Because its that simple
That's like saying anyone can play NBL or NBA if they work hard enough
If that was true we'd have 20 NBL clubs? Or is the problem that they don't work hard enough?
Takes more than hard work to become an elite basketballer.
Just as it takes more than hard work to become an elite basketball club.
Neither do I agree with zoning ie only play for one club.A while back we was in the position of having to move clubs. My boy is now a lot happier and more confident in his sport.Without the choice to start afresh he would have left basketball.You should have some choice.
I only mentioned zones because when I suggested a relegation summer comp across all divisions, I was called a fool because it's the "Best kids in a district".
Which of course we all know to be a fallacy. The only way this could be true is if zones were in place.
The only way to be sure the best ten teams are in div 1 is if some clubs loose their precious spots to second sides of other club who are obviously stronger but play div 2.
I think you would actually find the teams relegated will find it easier to find and keep kids when they aren't being belted each week.
The Magic/Woodville situation is a good example of this. Woodville struggle but play Div1 While magic will never play Div 1 yet have strong representation.
the only way new clubs should be allowed to start is if existing clubs are full.
the argument of what division you should be in should be purely performance based not what club.
ie national schools tournament, nunawading, classics - they are all results based and put you in a relevant division or whether you get an invite.
zones are not on - our kids originally went out to our local district club.
what a joke,
coach did not roll up to games / training.
some other kids feral.
coach could not be bothered entering major tournaments.
club full of backyard operators only promoting their kids - so we had div 3 kids playing div 1 and div 1 level kids not encouraged.
no training venues organized.
so we went to another club with a proven track record - sure it meant playing in a division or two lower. But my kids stayed in the sport and learnt more from a club that has coaches, stays on the straight and narrow, accepts it's defeats and is realistic about what division it's junior teams should be in.
yes, it meant driving across town to join that club.
If my kids had been restricted by zones - they would have dropped out of basketball.
and they were happy playing in a lower div but getting more balanced games. Rather than some club clutching to an unrealistic ideal of where they think they should be and then not doing the yards to earn that spot.
correct what i was on about was nunawading A grade is aimed at div 1 teams that dont get accepted to classics. And when you apply you say what level of competition you are at and they put you in a relevant grade.
so the people that run the comp put you in a grade - ie so you cant put a div 3 standard of team in A grade at Nunawading
I think kids should try a club within their zone/locality first.My kid started in one of the big clubs only to be treated like shit by a volunteer parent coach who had the experience of my grandmother playing water polo.We then went to the club closest to us and never looked back,not to mention the old club wants my child back at the end of every season.Too late treat your players with respect and they wont leave in the first place.I know every club has their own story's this was just mine.
I will state again.
my original argument was not for zones but a relegation comp through all divisions. The argument against was that each "district" MUST have a div 1 team because it's the best kids from each district, to which I pointed out this is only true if zones are in place.
I don't want zones. My Kids would not be allowed to play at the club they are at if this was the case.
But to believe the present system puts the best kids in Div 1 is a fantasy. look at centrals and woodville in most age groups, there are Div 3 teams that would be just as competitive.
there is not enough players, infrastructure or interest in zoning basketball in adelaide.
say for example you get adelaide hills - the players have no problem driving to adelaide - but if you get mt gambier, pt lincoln or west coast - are they going to drive to get a game - not.
best you could hope for is when they come to adelaide for work or uni.
who is going to scrutinize all this as well?
let's at least get pro / rel across the board for 5 years or so before anything
regardless of what club - the teams should be in relevant grades - ie if a team has greater than 175% or less than 35% already, or forfeiting games regularly - experience says they will only get better or worse and they will compound as the year goes on.
if western have proven good results in div 3 let them be in div 2. they can't "just start" in div 2 otherwise any person could start a team if they are unhappy with div 4 and put them in div 2.
you have to earn your stripes and do the hard yards.
2 teams in one division from a club is a recipe for destruction and will kill off the smaller clubs. In a small town like Adelaide that might be the way to go with between 4 and 6 clubs tops.
BSA wants kids playing ball in any comp at any level with the long term hope that they will migrate to district level but basketball participation in district is too expensive and the facilities too dated to really attract and retain the numbers it already has.
getting it done
not just fees but look at costs all round - depends what you get for money - ie indoor playing conditions etc.
basketball is cheaper than some and more expensive than some.
what I would like to discuss is fees being staggered.
i know the fees cover court hire for trainings - but having been through the system. div 1s always had the best courts, best times, best facilities for training and the div 4s paid the same fees for dud times, stadiums with no gyms. I know div 1s are the best but i always would have liked staggered fees. we pais equal money but never got equal conditions. before anyone gets on my case - I know nothing in the basketball world is fair !
not to mention div 3 and 4 coaches or uncle Ted and aunt Mary. Why isn't training on outdoor courts in Australia, cheaper and plentiful. Little change out of 750 buckaroos for district ball is out of line with some sports and has none of the perks.
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