Top 20 of All time?

I'll be blunt and say that you're pushing it there. He's a brilliant player and he will certainly be a HoF; but I wouldn't put him in that Elite category just now.

At this point in his career, having Dirk in the Top 20 would make me ask "Why isn't Nash or Kidd in the Top 20?".

Anon, nice list; though I would comnsider replacing the likes of Duncan with someone like Elgin Baylor or Pistol Pete.

McHale above Shaq & Hakeem?

Wasn't in any particular order.

At this point in his career, having Dirk in the Top 20 would make me ask "Why isn't Nash or Kidd in the Top 20?".

Top 50 - let's not blow our load too quickly here!

How has LeBron changed the game? Athletic for sure but i cant see how he changed the game like the greats have. Kobe hasnt changed the game either.

People who have IMO

Bill Russell made it about D

Wilt Chamberlain made it about domination

DR J made it about athletisism and speed

Magic and Bird in the same way at the same time, multi tasking, leaders who attracted corporates

Jordan took the game above the rim

Big Marty, to me replacing Duncan in a list of all-time greats with Pistol Pete would be like replacing Scott Fisher with James Harvey on a list of NBL Top 20 Greats.

Billo, Nash has back-to-back League MVP's, one of the best point guards in the modern game. The man is a championship level PG; just needs a decent squad to prove it.

Jason Kidd is 3rd all time on assists; triple-double point guard and the Closest thing to a modern day Big O.

Dirk.... can shoot the ball, 1 Finals MVP, 1 League MVP, 1 Title. Yep, great to see the awards. He only falls into the category of about 100 other players that have played in the NBL. When he gets into the top 10 or top 5 all time scorers list; he's worth considering.

My point is, he "could" be a Top 20 or Top 10, but he needs to do more than win a title.

Mojo, I know Tim Duncan has alot of merits and is certainly worth mentioning in the all-time category... he's just so boring to watch.

Anon #320763, the only thing Lebron has changed in the game of Basketball is Jerseys and Post Codes.

I refuse to compare Dirk (or anyone else) to players that I never actually saw play, and I don't ever really like to compare players across positions (comparing a PG to a PF has never really sat right with me) but I will compare him to other Power Forwards I've seen play.

Even though he won a championship and therefore achieved something that Karl Malone and Charles Barkley never did, I consider both of them to be better than Dirk. I'd certainly rate Tim Duncan ahead of Dirk. I'd rank Kevin Garnett ahead of him. But really, that might be it.

But he's a much more complete player than Dennis Rodman or Ben Wallace. A stronger personality and tougher player than Pau Gasol.

I've always been a fan of his game and I've believed for a while that he broke the 'European Players Are Soft & Can't Be Leaders' stigma even before he won the championship, despite the only moderate success he'd largely had before 2011.

It all fell together for him this year, the perfect moment where his increased diversified skill set, experience, determination and leadership were all at their peak. It was something to see.

I feel comfortable saying he's the fifth best Power Forward over the last 20 years.

Nash would have been top 20 if Duncan and the Spurs didn't eliminate them from the playoffs so many times.

How anyone can argue against Duncan in the top 10 is beyond me.

Billo, Nash has back-to-back League MVP's, one of the best point guards in the modern game. The man is a championship level PG; just needs a decent squad to prove it.

thedoctor,

Michael Jordan
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson
Bill Russell
Kareem Abdul-Jabar
Wilt Chamberlain
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Shaquille O'Neill
Moses Malone

I know that it's not everyone's Top 10, but I would put all of those guys ahead of Tim Duncan.

Every big man in that list is either a better scorer, rebounder, assist man, shot blocker or has more MVP's/Titles that Timmy D has.

I also think Dirk had a few ballers around him that are better than role players.

Quite a few have been all stars at one point or another. Not knocking Dirk just saying that to call guys who have been all stars role players it a bit tough.

A role player is what The Custodian played as, hardly say the same for Kidd, Marion , Chandler etc etc

KB3 - I would have said Dr J took the game above the rim. Just check out the "Rock the Baby" dunk over MIchael Cooper.

More generally, in terms of changing the game, his athleticism and finishing above the rim woke the general public up in the USA. It gave a huge marketing fillip to kick the NBA product along. He was one of, if no the, star player(s) most involved in promoting and selling the new NBA following the merger with the ABA. In those terms, he was the Jordan of the 1970s and became a role model for the next generation of players.

Hell, Doc Rivers even got his nickname from wearing a Dr J tee shirt to practice all the time. Now that's changing the game! I wish I'd seen him in his prime.

Oops - last KB3 post was me - not KB3. Finger fault!

Apologies KB3

Fair enough, perhaps labeling Dirk's supporting cast as "strictly role players" was going a bit far, but realistically before this season started Dallas would have been considered by most to have a less talented roster that:

Miami
Boston
Lakers
San Antonio
Oklahoma (perhaps)

They then went on to lose Hayward for the finals, Caron Butler for half the season (who was expected to be thier 2nd leading scorer) and Corey Brewer and Dirk still got them over the line.

That's why I consider him ahead of Nash in the all time greats.

hmm, I think Dirk's overall body of work will prob get him into the top 20, but only just. Over 20k points, will break 25k in the next couple of years, and will also break 10k rebounds about the same time. Won an MVP and played a lot of all star games in a conference that was packed with great PF's during his time (Duncan, Garnett, Webber).
If he could sneak another title as his teams best player I think it would definitely put him top 20 without a doubt

Agree with Tweet tweet that Duncan and Garnett were better players in their day, but am wondering if Malone and Barkley get a pass on the championship test because they played against Jordan?