Not happy Jan!
Years ago

Karen Dalton Spray to Officials - WNBL

Karen Dalton has given a spray to the Wnbl for having second tier officials this season for the girls games.....it seems that this season the top 20 officials in the country are mainly doing Nbl games and the Wnbl are left with many less experienced officials working games.

In NSW this season the top two WNBL ref's from last season - Matt Beattie & Matt Townsend are now only doing Nbl and or at least mainly doing Nbl

The same has happened all around the league and the Wnbl is weaker for it

Do people agree that this is a sexist decision?

Maybe they should pay ref's the same for Men & Woman's games?

------------------

Topic #27155 | Report this topic


Anonymous  
Years ago

Beattie and Townsend only did 2 games each in the WNBL last season so it's not like they worked every round and are now lost to the WNBL.

Reply #343965 | Report this post


Anon  
Years ago

It's never the coaches fault!

Reply #343968 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

NBL games are signifcantly harder to referee so your best officials do these game - case and point!

If WNBL was a better standard then you would get the best referees!

Reply #343973 | Report this post


Anon  
Years ago

The sexist decision is female referees are automatically promoted to give the illusion that it's "fair". Before you attack me, I'm female and I don't think it's fair at all. The female refs that make it on their own, lose credibility because of decisions that are out of their hands.

That being said I agree with Karen. Every year the reffing standards have decreased. I think the 3 ref rule is good, but their aren't enough quality refs around to cover both the NBL and WNBL at the same time.

Reply #343974 | Report this post


In the Know  
Years ago

Not sexist ... just lack of depth that needs to be addressed ...

Reply #343975 | Report this post


ANON12  
Years ago

IMO Karen has always been a whinger from when she played to her coaching. Also unwilling to admit that her coaching abilities may be the reason for a loss and not the officials.
Having said that, the problem with the officiating depends on where and when the games are played. Certainly the top officials are rostered to NBL games but some (not all) referee WNBL games. The top echelon also travel to NBL games and therefore may be unavailable for the WNBL due to this factor. Let's also be honest with the fact that some senior officials do not want to referee WNBL games due to the game payments and the perceived lack of standard of the WNBL. In Adelaide for instance I often wonder why Haines and Filmer are not rostered to more games if there is no NBL game that weekend and instead less experienced and referees barely capable of the WNBL standard are rostered. This argument could go on forever but the facts are that less experienced referees are now rostered to WNBL games than in previous years.

Reply #343989 | Report this post


Not happy Jan!  
Years ago

Can't see that there is a lack of depth when many of the best ref's are doing bugger all games each season.

There are (9) NSW officials in the WNBL!!!

Far too many - IMO only need 4 or 5 and have them doing games as much as possible

Reply #343990 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Ok a few things here...

The WNBL dont have the money to pay the same amount as the NBL. For a guesstimate your looking at $150 top $$$ in the WNBL compared to $600 in the NBL. NBL have a travel budget the WNBL welllll dont!

ANON12:
Let's also be honest with the fact that some senior officials do not want to referee WNBL games due to the game payments and the perceived lack of standard of the WNBL

This is slightly a load of crap. All the Top referees (top 10) Referee in their state leagues in the off-season for less than what they would get for a WNBL game. Game payments have nothing to do with it, it's around the rostering. That is all.

I think I could safely say that the top 10 NBL officials havent refereed WNBL for at least 10 years, some even longer.

The problem around giving the top NBL guys games is A) they are generally rostered on NBL and B) they are taking games away from developing referees. Its a bit of chicken and egg. How do you show development pathways if you only let the same people referee both leagues???

Not Happy Jan:

Your comment around 9 officials is valid and I totally agree. The issue is availability. Its not just about how much is paid but it revolves around things such as family life, work life balance and the days of people only working monday to friday are gone. Some referees fulltime employment includes weekend work etc and if it comes to a full-time wage or a WNBL payment well only 1 is going to pay the mortgage and the other is beer money.

Reply #344006 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I say good on you Karen for having the guts to say anything in a league where refs get even! They have favourites and think its OK to even up games.

Just call the fouls and get on with it! I don't go to watch them!

Reply #344009 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I think Karen's issues relate mainly to the NSW Refs and maybe SA refs, the Vic and QLD panel officials are allot better, in my honest opinion i think the std of reffing has been pretty good this year, especially in Victoria but there are issues with NSW no doubt.

Reply #344014 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Also i dont think Karen has done herself any Favours carrying on like that in public. The Refs remember... Also ive watched the things she complains about and i think she has a poor read on the game at times.

Reply #344016 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

anon 014, clearly your from Victoria and those rose coloured glasses your wearing are a bit smudged this season. The standard is the same across all states more or less.

Reply #344018 | Report this post


alexkrad  
Years ago

best refs for best competition.. nothing sexist about it.. im sure the best netball refs wouldnt be umpiring a mens netball competition

Reply #344019 | Report this post


In the Know  
Years ago

Why Alex, You see Men umpirng high level finals in Netball all the time.

Reply #344022 | Report this post


Not happy Jan!  
Years ago

IMO, VIC has been just as bad as anywhere

Andriola/Troy Earle/Jason Kelly/some other guy

None of these are up to this level

would be much better having Chris Reid/Banik/Kirsten etc

Reply #344023 | Report this post


CP3  
Years ago

Karen Dalton is always whinging & wining about something. Karen is offically 'Coach Grumpy' in the WNBL! FFS Karen every team has to put up with the sub standard umpiring at times! It seems to me that Karen goes in to whinge mode when her team has a loss. How timely??

Reply #344031 | Report this post


ariel42  
Years ago

In The Know - you might want to read alexkrad's post more carefully. He's not talking about men umpiring netball. He's talking about the best netball refs not umpiring MEN'S netball, ie because it's a second rate competition. I think the comparison is pretty clear to those who read it properly.

Reply #344033 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

@ Not Happy, if youre going to name people atleast get a clue about what youre saying, Kelly and Andreola are 2 of the most experienced competent officials on the WNBL panel, both rate very well in game assesments too. So maybe you have a grudge or something but those 2 would amongst the last dropped, there are allot worse going around than those 2.

Reply #344051 | Report this post


Not happy Jan!  
Years ago

It's called an opinion from watching on ABC!
Kelly is not that experienced and not as good as others ( I think he is OK but my comparison is against others like Kirsten/Reid/Banik and Andreola has been over rated for a long time IMO

All I am saying is that VIC officials at this level are no better than others in other states

Typical VIC mentality living in "Big head world" where you think your state is No1 @ everything but it's not always the case

Reply #344052 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

@ Not happy, you are most definately entitled to an opinion but the fact you use TV coverage to rate officials is flawed to begin with as you get a totally different view from high up the stands to what the Refs see for starters. Banik shouldnt be doing NBL using your logic because he's no better than Andreola or Kelly, you can argue all you like but they all rank roughly the same.
Bottom line is id take any of the victorian NBL/WNBL panel barring the 3 new comers on one of my games over 80% of the rest of the countrys panel.

Reply #344055 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Anon055, i gather your anon051 as well. I agree Kelly is competent and deserved to go to WNBL panel 1 this year. But I cannot agree with your love for Andreola. If she was so experienced and in your words one of the last dropped why after approx 15+ years is she still on the lowest panel???? If she was as "good" as you proclaim after all this Time why is she STILL on panel 3???

Reply #344058 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I think the fact that the person who held a grudge against her and held her back deliberay got sacked probably answers that question.

Reply #344059 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

You might want to get your facts straight first. Said person was informed they were no longer required at the NBL level and thus quit the WNBL role taking his bat and ball with him! You might want to keep up with the things that actually occurred.

Interesting that the same referee is still panel 3 under new management and beyond mid-season review point, plus ranked 9th in the VBRA rankings but couldn't get a men's final in either Big V or SEABL.

Seems to be a pattern there.

Reply #344063 | Report this post


Not happy Jan!  
Years ago

That's where I strongly disagree
Banik has been around a long time and is a developing official who continues to get better - I am quite sure he has done finals in the Wnbl and I would think most people outside of Victoria would rate him well ahead of the other two.

As I said Jason Kelly is fine but the debate is more about the fact that with Kirsten/Reid/Banik not used in the Wnbl the standard of officiating in the wnbl is lower in Victoria just like every other state.

Your opinion of Kelly & Andreoala being better than 80% of the panel outside of Victoria is extremely bias and the typical VIC attitude I am talking about

Actually it's laughable

Even Michelle Dyson is more consistent and reliable than Andreola in VIC

Don't get me wrong the same thing exists in NSW, the coaches would prefer to see Beattie than some of the less experienced officials especially from Canberra



Reply #344064 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Yet got the women's GF?????!!!! Lol which GF did banik get? Oh that's right none. Looked like a nervous kid on the conf final. Everyone knows she's been held back, funnily enough under the new fairer system she's suddenly getting the same marks as panel 1's.. Wow what a surprise. Won't be long till things are corrected.

Your "version" of events about pt's demise are spin at best.

Reply #344066 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Go ask anyone in NSW, NBL panel, Lorraine Landon if you will!!! I'm not the one in fantasy land! Wow SEABL womens Final. Awesome, with a newly promoted panel 2 in Chapman. Might tell you where it sits in the scheme of things as the last 3 were, Andreola, CHapman and Battye a panel 3!!!! If you knew anything about the system once your in the men's pool you don't drop back to the women's section once your out of selection! Please keep up will you .

Reply #344070 | Report this post


Not happy Jan!  
Years ago

Now who sounds like they have a grudge anon?
Your comments about Daniel???

If he missed out on a Grand Final in the SEABL because of performance then fine but I think over time he has shown the large majority around Australian referee circles to be a much more consistent and competent official than Andriola or Earle or Kelly Knight or others

My point is more about the fact that while VIC has some good depth that after there top 7 or 8 officials it drop's off in terms of standard.

Too be honest it sounds like you might be Andreola's mum?

She is a level 3 or maybe a level 2 WNBL but she aint an Nbl Ref or even close

Reply #344072 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Clearly you don't have a copy of the email the ex-commissioner sent to both Panels dated 29/8/11 outlining how in the interest of consistent referee development he had no option but to tender his resignation.

Don't you have that?? But your so well informed!!!

Reply #344073 | Report this post


In the Know  
Years ago

ariel42 so there are no top netball umpires (women or men) officiating at the Mens world championships or the world under 23 championships for men? Perhaps do some research before coming on here. Maybe it's just not clear to you?

Reply #344077 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

LOL yes ive read that email, it read like a bitchy face saving swipe at BA.
Either way to say she isnt good or experienced enough to ref WNBL well is a huge load of POO.

Reply #344078 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Every league that hasn't advanced her can't be wrong!

Clearly you haven't seen the WNBL T & D where she features often.

Your crush is cute though.

Reply #344079 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Crush.. grow up, how do you advance past panel 1 on the state panel? FIBA license??

This is sounding more like a personal gripe and jealousy than anything accurate.

Lets leave the personal BS to one side and stick to the topic.

Reply #344080 | Report this post


Not happy Jan!  
Years ago

Anon, who said she was not good enough for Wnbl.
OK I did but it was more in comparison to other, better options.

IMO they need to pick a panel of the best officials to do both Nbl & Wnbl - She would not be in that group

As it stands now the Wnbl get Andreola/Earle/Spain/Kelly as senior officials at this level, instead of those guys being part of a crew which might include Reid,Banik,Kirsten, Mills

This is what Karen is talking about

As for Tilden, well regardless of why he quit I don't think he alone would have held back 1 over rated Victorian

The fact she ranked 9th in her state says it all



Reply #344081 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Earle is not a snr official, its his first year, along with Clarke.
There are 4 current panel officials who are either injured, over weight and unfit or wont make themselves avaliable regularly. Earle, Dyson and Clarke got a look in because of this.

Reply #344082 | Report this post


Not happy Jan!  
Years ago

Ok Anon, I was not sure about that.
I think I know who you might be talking about being over weight however would those three get a gig if Banik, Reid and maybe Kirsten were used regularly when not doing Nbl?

I wouldn't think so, and that is the point of this thread

Reply #344084 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Its hardly personal. Neither SEABL or Big V used her on Men says something. The fact SEABL used someone who didn't pass the fitness test ahead of her might also say something.

The fact Big V appointed Chris Clarke and Troy Earle to their championship mens game ranked 11 & 12 also says plenty. Sorry.

Reply #344085 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Im not dissagreeing that Banik, Reid and Kirsten (Tim Mils too) should be reffing WNBL, Banik still predominantly does.
I just find it rediculous that some think Andreola isnt good enough to ref WNBL even with those guys on the panel. She is clearly in my and many others opininons a very good ref who is also 1 of only about 20 good enough to be FIBA official. That's all im saying.

Reply #344086 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Have a look at the entire Australian FIBA panel. There are plenty there who shouldn't be and there are plenty there who have never had an appointment O/S and never will.

Reply #344087 | Report this post


EC  
Years ago

I have raised this point before, but the best refs should be employed full time by both leagues and therefore do a lot more games than they do now. If they don't have other committments, there is no reason why they can't do 5 or more games a week. With the correct number of them, they could cover both men and women's games. Its a professional league which requires professional refs. The profession should be able to satisfy them financially without any other committment. If they can make a living out of it, it might even encourage more to take up the profession or atleast bring the best of them out of the woodwork.

The WNBL should not be putting up with less experienced refs when they are also professional sports people.

Reply #344088 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Ok, talk about FIBA and International appoitments? Amongst many trips she was the No1 ranked womans official at the Asian Games judged by Lubo no less, amongst officials with Olympic Games experience too 2 years ago, Got the Womens Gold medal game as Referee. Cant be too bad a ref if the head of Fiba approved.

Reply #344089 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Earle, Clarke & O'Shea came on from Victoria whilst Boyd and Manhire are inactive.

Banik, Kelly and Knight are Panel 1's, Spain and Manhire are the panel 2's and the rest are panel 3. Andreola or Dyson would be the the 2 longest serving on WNBL and both are panel 3.

Kirsten and Mills have not refereed WNBL for approx 2 and 4 years respectively. Reid was removed from the panel this year after moving to panel 2 on the NBL. That leaves Hunt and Aylen and a search of WNBL games records shows Hunt has refereed 41 WNBL games compared to 900+ NBL and Aylen 22 compared to 300+ NBL.

Interesting that these stats are from the end of 2010 and Reid who had a relatively short time on WNBL had 67 games compared to Andreola's 80.

Just some stats to enlighten debate.

Reply #344091 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Well considering the Asian games are run 4 yearly and the last one was in 2010 you might want to check your facts.

The Gold Medal game for Women was played between Korea and China. The Referees for that were:

Chernova - Russia
Yodsint - Thailand
Durairaju - India

In 2006 the 15th Asian games they still used 2 person officiating and the final was refereed by:

Julien - France
Townsend - Canada

Also comparing FIBA's from non-powerhouse countries is fraught with danger as we all remember Gen's from India who came highly regarded from India (did the Commonwealth games) and we all know how well he did in the big V

Reply #344094 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

East Asian Games 2009..... Go check again.

In any event now youre clutching at straws...

Reply #344097 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Just going by what you typed

Reply #344099 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

You dont believe me? What about Semi final at U23 Worlds?

Reply #344100 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

And since? Senior worlds? Junior Worlds???????? Just wondering because she made such a good impression on Mr Lubo that she got another gig where?

Reply #344101 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Was on standby just recently for another worlds gig pending someone passing or failing a fitness test. You mentioned not doing mens finals, WRONG again, did BigV mens last year but got injured in the semi. From memory on Seabl site Did Mens GF with Arnold in 2006 or 7. Missed finals in 08 and 09 due to FIBA commitments at the same time as Seabl, again from memory ranked 2 and 3 for a few years in Vic only a few years ago, anyone who ranks in top 10 in Vic is a damn good ref.

Reply #344102 | Report this post


Anon  
Years ago

I'm from Vic....they're horrible here too!! But nothing will change until the ref coaches are held accountable for there critices.

Reply #344103 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Please don't live in the past. We are talking 2011! She got outranked by Boyd, Oshea and Ron Clarke!

Im just don't understand why if she impressed so much why she wouldn't have been selected rather than a convenient standby? As standby's aren't ever announced its an interesting card to throw.

Reply #344104 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

You might want to pick which worlds your talking about a bit better also

Reply #344105 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

This rhetoric is great to but she will be gone in 2 years. From all levels except maybe "ABA Women". You can count on it

Reply #344106 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Plotting get demise are you? Lol, you sound bitter. While she keeps getting excellent assessments the league need as many officials with her experience as they can get.

Reply #344108 | Report this post


Really?  
Years ago

This is referee bashing at a tertiary level. Remember that these referee's are decent human beings and then give it a rest.

Reply #344109 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Agree Really, sad thing is the knockers here are most likely panel officials who referee with these people, quite sad and pathetic how they backstab their co workers.

Reply #344110 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Hasn't had an excellent assignment for a while and won't again. Wont do do WNBL finals, as stated will get few if any Big V SEABL men's games (similar to the second half of the 2011 season) and knowing the powers that be won't get nominated out of Victoria in 2012. Wont go to a senior worlds and i doubt will go O/S ever again and will as stated be gone from elite within 2. Nothing to do with me, you can just see from the last 2 years the move is away. Im nobody so i have no say. Its an opinion, just like everyone i have my own.

Bitter. That's funny. Never refereed a game in my life, but my housemates live the shit. I couldn't care less if she was the queen of england. I just love how 1 or 2 people run to her defence in every online thread and the stats, rankings etc don't lie! The facts and only the facts are 2 referees who ranked below her referee a Mens ABA final ahead of her! Clearly not as highly thought of by management as you!

Reply #344111 | Report this post


Anon  
Years ago

Players, that are decent human beings, get bashed on here all the time 'really?'. Why should refs be excluded?? Especially when, in the case of wnbl, they get paid more than players??

Reply #344112 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Really - they only call what they feel like, players get bashed and injured. I don't come to watch them! The same clowns have been critiquing them forever and they don't get any better i think they are worse and as for Kelly puuuullllllease?

Reply #344119 | Report this post


ariel42  
Years ago

In the Know, yet again, as you do so often on this forum, you prove to be all huff and no puff. No wonder people don't take your posts seriously. It's pretty clear you missed the whole point alexkrad was making. I've tried to spell it out for you but you still don't listen. You might actually appear more "in the know" if you actually paid more attention to others instead of pretending you know everything. I'm over and out now, you can either read it again so that you understand, or you can continue this argument with yourself.

Reply #344120 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

The point being made in the know was not Men umpiring Women at the world champs etc it was stating the reverse happens in Netball. The best umpires umpire the womens competition which is the elite. The next best umpires work in the the Mens netball comp as it is the second tier. That was the point the poster was making.

Reply #344121 | Report this post


h8er  
Years ago

Three words- Typical Dalton trash.

Reply #344130 | Report this post


In the Know  
Years ago

Ariel42,/juno ... What a pathetic reply. Seriously it is not a challenge arguing with you. I love "again" that you follow my posts with such vigor and discuss with them with others.. Hiliarious.

Reply #344140 | Report this post


In the Know  
Years ago

Anon 121.. So the mens world champs is not elite? I agree that a social or mixed comp. is a tier below but I think world champs is and that was the point i was trying to make. I suppose a valid point is that if both netball comps ran at the same time you would have the same problem as what basketball is facing.

Reply #344146 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Lets put it in a basketball sense, If you had one basketball referee and you offered them do you want to referee the Men's Worlds or the Women's Worlds which do you think they would take?....... Men's every day of the week.

If you had the same situation in the Netball the Umpire would take the Women's every day of the week.

Their was no suggestion the Men's netball Worlds wasnt elite, it's just a tier below the Women's competition if your looking at it from a structure point of view!

No different if you scale it back to national competition formats like the NBL/WNBL or the ANZ Championship / Men's Easter National Championship. Your best basketball referees are going to want to do NBL before WNBL and your best netball umpires are going to want to do the ANZ over the Men's national tournament.

Reply #344151 | Report this post


imonawinner  
Years ago

The reality is guys like reid, haines & beattie were told they wouldn't be used this season to make way for new officials to be added to the panel.it was thought there was enough depth in the panel to cover there loss but many would argue that hasn't been the case.
The facts with melissa andreola is she prob won't go away with fiba because she's too old & they are transitioning too younger groups of officials at tournaments now.
I'm actually ashamed to be a referee at the moment because clearly there are officials on here bagging out their workmates.we struggle for credability as it is & shit like this doesn't help.

Reply #344154 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

imonawinner i totally agree, its quite sad to read some of the rubbish being said about a very good person on here who works very hard and give back so much at grass roots level for free and are also a very successful ref in their own right.

Someone here clearly has a spiteful grudge and its sad and pathetic of them to air it here anonymously and every time she is mentioned on forums, although it isn't hard to work out what and whos behind it..

Reply #344158 | Report this post


ariel42  
Years ago

In the Know....Juno? You are barking up the wrong tree. Clearly I'm not the only one who can't take you seriously. I don't follow your posts with any vigor at all. Just thought I'd point out that you misinterpreted alexkrad's post, and it is highly amusing that you can't just admit it. More than one person in this thread has tried to help you, but still you persist. That's what's hilarious. Have a Merry Xmas, and I'll see you in a stadium in the New Year.

Reply #344160 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I think if anything should come out of Dalton's outburst it should probably be a working party to look at the make up of the National Panel as a whole and how both leagues are rostered. It could be possible seeing both leagues are managed by the one person that once the NBL games are appointed, the remaining referees are then available for WNBL appointments. If you write into policy that there still has to be room for development of officials especially at the lower end of the WNBL its possible you could kill 2 ducks with one brick.

Reduce the size of the entire national panel and make it more workable with an emphasis on getting up and coming referees opportunities to ref with more experienced people and greater frequency of appointments for all. Currently as previously stated there are anywhere between 10-17 referees idle from the NBL any given round (accounting for unavailablity etc) Drop a large portion of them back to WNBL, mix them with a senior WNBL referee (Panel 1) and a less experienced WNBL referee and you might be able to increase the standard of the refereeing on games plus help deliver development and experience to a referee who has the potential to have a future. Hopefully it will also increase the frequency of games referees are appointed to which again as previously discussed can on help consistency. Just my 5 bob worth

Reply #344161 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Multiple personalities ariel?

Reply #344183 | Report this post


ariel42  
Years ago

#183 - that's what I told the psychiatrist...and so did I.

Actually no, I think In The Know is confused.

Reply #344228 | Report this post


enoughalready  
Years ago

sounds like you refs and officials need to get a room.

there is an old saying. Those who say the most know the least.

No wonder player/coaches are confused the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. Sort your bed out then lay in it. Basketball will then move forward.

Reply #344261 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Maybe Karen needs to go to Marion and then she may realize how great she's got it
Better umpires and court superviser can be found in an Indonesian table tennis ball show

Reply #344289 | Report this post


imonawinner  
Years ago

This just in, WNBL & NBL have responded quickly by bringing in NBL officials to the next few rounds of the WNBL and saying that only those who perform best will get games going forward across the board. Fantastic response by the leagues.

Reply #344303 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Yeah right, where did you hear that?

Reply #344321 | Report this post




 

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