Anonymous
Years ago

Umpiring Junior Finals

How do they choose the umpires for grand finals? 

Interesting choice for the under 18 boys game last night! On many occasions throughout the season one of the umpires struggled to get over the halfway line, yet rock up last night and he is rewarded with a gf game! Is there a deemed group of umpires that are 'gifted' gf's within the state on so called umpiring ability?

If I was to go to my job and give half hearted efforts I would be without a job yet it seems it's rewarded in basketball! 

From a neutral supporters position last nights umpiring was disgraceful and VERY dangerous for players! For men's games it's fair enough to let some things go in grand finals! In junior BOYS basketball it's just plain stupid and dangerous!!! 

Thoughts?

Topic #27814 | Report this topic


Anonymous  
Years ago

The beat decision They Made all might was to run off the court at the end of the game! Mark frost is terrible and I don't even know the other guys name!!

Reply #354635 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Both referees have been selected to represent SA at the National Under 18 Championships.

Reply #354636 | Report this post


G.....T  
Years ago

why don't you get out there and do it .If you think it's so easy

Reply #354637 | Report this post


rhea  
Years ago

For a neutral supporter, you sure sound a lot like a Southern parent or player.

Reply #354638 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Gawd please don't encourage the refs to be any softer than they are. Basketball is a tough game our refs are too involved in the game in this state. Go to the Classics or Nationals and see how physically bruising the game is! In little ole SA we play different brand of basketball locally, its called over reffed.

Reply #354644 | Report this post


Soft umps  
Years ago

Have to agree how soft it was. To make matters worse you have a coach ask the referee for protection for the guard who can't get the ball. From that moment on the defender wasn't allowed to breath on him. refs intimiadated so it continues week after week with this coach.

Reply #354647 | Report this post


Aba  
Years ago

I'm confused, how can you say Mark Frost and Dan White struggle to get over half way.
One thing they are not is lacking fitness

Reply #354652 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

It's not a tough game it's a thugs game and its a thugs game because officials don't get, don't understand, don't read the rules which requires a commodity they do not possess.
Juniors need the best there is to encourage participation in the sport but all parents see Friday nights are behind the play incidents and officials unsure of how to handle games.
ABL has two refs up to the mark with the rest so firmly attached to clubs independent decisions are non existent. No leadership , no accountability just ensured games week in week out. New refs last less time than ever because the mentoring is so poor and green shirts was or is a joke with kids thrown into district div 1 games and officialdom wonder why no one is happy.
Very little respect is merited with a large number of refs actively mouthing off at players and it seems a lot get off on changing the direction of the games. Fairness it seems is just too much to ask.

Reply #354653 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

652 it's not a lack of fitness it's called laziness!

Not sure the names but the black haired fella shows a lack of interest in junior games! If you are umpiring purely for money go work in a pub on friday! If you are umpiring because you are passionate about umpiring then at least put in the effort otherwise let someone else who is passionate about the job to do it!

Blonde haired fella did a good job carrying him last night!

Reply #354656 | Report this post


Anon  
Years ago

'From a neutral supporter's position...Thoughts?'

I'm think'n the grapes are tasting sour down South this vintage.

Reply #354711 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

A bit harsh guys and you should not name anyone in a public forum

Reply #354724 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

It's not as harsh as it would be if a CHILD breaks his neck when being man handled in a lay up!

653 hit the nail on the head!

Reply #354739 | Report this post


Filmaker  
Years ago

(Mod: WTF?! Well done. First person to take a ref whinge and make it racist.)

Reply #354744 | Report this post


Juno  
Years ago

It's interesting the amount that some individuals choose to slag off referees for their demonstrated commitment to a sport that they referee for the love of it. They are the facilitators of the game, and you can't forget that they are an integral part of it. You cannot make a living from a refereeing wage here in Australia, so a lot comes down to the passion for basketball, and for most, they have budding careers outside of the sport. Allowing the game to flow and allowing young men in the case of the Under 18's to play physically and body-up is really a good sign that the referee's aren't trying to draw attention to themselves and ensuring that the game is fast-paced and exciting.

To answer the original question, referee's are selected on their merit and demonstrated performance throughout the season on Friday night juniors, as with all other finals. For these two referees, as was stated, they have been selected to referee at the U18 championships this year and both have a number of years experience in ABA and YouthLeague officiating.

One important thing to keep in mind is that players go out on the court and make turnovers, missed shots and they foul. That is just a part of the game. But referees when they make a mistake, even one, are slandered for their performance, particularly on a Friday night game in front of one-eyed parents. It takes a strong person to be a referee, but an even stronger one to brush unneccessary criticism off when it is non-constructive...

For those that are a fan of doing that in this state, pull your finger out and think about the effect you are having on the sport. Referees are not against the players, but presumptuous spectators and assuming coaches believe they are. If they were, they would not be out there, nor would they be allowed to be. Time to be realistic and realise that these guys and girls are just everyday people, perhaps with a bit more of a spine and personality than some of the snipers on this forum. The referees on friday nights game did not affect the outcome of the game, southern couldn't hit a shot, but they allowed the game to flow and facilitated the game whilst keeping it exciting to watch.

Reply #354764 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Juno, I started this thread and I've got to say good post! However one thing I think is that just like players some referees must be placed on a pedestal because of reputation not because of performance.

Just because u are selected to umpire at nationals doesn't mean that every performance is good!

Reply #354769 | Report this post


dione14  
Years ago

After last season's u18 winter grand final between West and Norwood, I seem to recall people on Hoops having a whinge about the performance of the referees. Now again, two different teams and two different referees, and again, people are whingeing. Just let the refs do their job! Some people just complain about refs for the sake of having something to complain about.

Reply #354771 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Umps in general might become a tad stronger people if they looked at the weaknesses in their games and did something about it. Constantly making the same errors, no calls and siding with the strength is not endearing officials to anyone.
As for the bleating of dedication and commitment, earned spots on Friday etc - it doesn't show.

Players have no recourse for umps that mouth off/swear at them on the quiet during games or on the huge number of no calls that occur. You might call it mistakes and liken it to turnovers/missed passes all you like but you so called integral part of the game people are not great exponents of fairness towards both teams.

In this puerile world of political correctness no one can accuse officials of the one word that way too many of them have earned.

I have never complained about indifferent officials when that indifference is universal. When the above is true you can adapt and the result is fair for both teams. If I have to lose let it be because the other teams was too good not because it gets a leg up from the floor walkers. In every stadium where current and explayers control games, issues will continue.

I have no idea about Fridays game but if like Juno anyone believes refs don't have things against players they must be living on another planet.

Reply #354773 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Floor walkers...GREAT CALL

Reply #354778 | Report this post


stephen  
Years ago

dione 14 obviously you werent at the game last year.

Reply #354780 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Refs need to be more approachable.
To give a technical foul when a coach poses a question in the heat of a game penalizes the team unfairly and is a sign of lack of control.
The calls differ so much between refs. All anyone wants is their children to have a fair game umpired fairly and consistently.

Reply #354786 | Report this post


dione14  
Years ago

Actually stephen, yes I was. I thought the umpires were fine, and didn't affect the outcome at all. The better team won that night.

If I was a Southern supporter, instead of complaining about umpires, I'd be more concerned that they couldn't beat an understrength Forestville in the final. Also in the semi final, they just snuck home over a Sturt team who did not have their best player playing. Not the umpire's fault.

Reply #354793 | Report this post


Juno  
Years ago

Exactly dione, exactly.

Case closed: southern associated people on hoops having a whinge because their team lost. If they won, there would be no comments. A little bit of professionalism...

Reply #354799 | Report this post


Jack Toft  
Years ago

This applies to all junior games.

The three things I hate that umpires don't call.

1. 3 second rule. Rarely called, but constantly and blatantly ignored.
If you have some kid that's hit puberty early and is a foot taller that the rest, chances are they'll camp. It's too easy to drop a player in the key on the weakside, get a shot chucked up, then the camper gets the rebound, goal. The 3s rule is all about advantage. You can't tell me getting a rebounder in position early isn't advantage.

2. Reaching. Happens all the time and usually results in a steal, fast break and layup. I was taught the ball carrier has a "bubble" around them that is their space. Reaching in and making contact IS a foul and not a steal. Variation is the professional foul off a fast break, brought in as an unsportsmanlike foul, but happens so much, would slow the game down too much.

3. The "Bonk". I see it all the time. Players who pelvic thrust the ball carrier. It's pretty funny when you see a 16 yo boy do it to another 16 yo boy and his girlfriend is watching.

Reply #354803 | Report this post


stephen  
Years ago

dione they were forced to win twice.

Reply #354808 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Jack toft.. What about lifting the pivot foot? I think it's an old rule..can't remember what it's called though... ;)

Reply #354812 | Report this post


Jack Toft  
Years ago

OK, four things . . . . .

Reply #354814 | Report this post


beaniebear  
Years ago

Jack, reaching and hand checking happened all weekend at the ABL tournament. Mustn't be on the points of emphasis this year...

Reply #354816 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Players miss layups, make turnovers all the time, yes they do and they face consequences like getting dragged and sitting on the bench!!
I can live with umpires making mistakes, but when players are being man handled, hit hard, players taking 4 steps when picking the ball up and nothing is called, and this happens week after week that's why people get annoyed.
What I would like to know is why the Southern coach got a tech when the forestville kid grabbed the ring without the ball then swung himself up in the air?

Reply #354873 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

southern coach always whinges about the refs he might like to concentrate on coaching rather than worrying about the refs go in with the mindset that you are being screwed over and you will cause in your mind that is going to happen so you will see it happening even when it doesn't.

kid grabbed the ring cause to come down he would have come down on players they have the right to protect themselves and others. coach i would have thought got teched by the way he protested. He is disrespectful to all referees whether it be at u23s, u18s or ABA women.

Reply #354877 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Above post written by a ref that obviously has it in for the coach, but then again that never happens because refs are un biased!!!

Reply #354889 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

If the forestville dude had let go of the rim, then you could say goodbye to the Souther guy's basketball career as he would of got a permanently stuffed back from getting landed on

Reply #354895 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I thought the Southern coach did a good job not to lose it earlier in the game, he was clearly annoyed with himself after he got the tech and was joking with the blonde ref half way through the last quarter, wouldn't say he was being disrespectful at all, he lets his players have it though I was standing in ear shot of his bench and he was very colorful during timeouts.

Reply #354902 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

889 you could not be further from the truth, why do you see something that is not there. If i say something in support of BSA ergo I work for BSA if I say something in support of refs ergo I am a ref. If i say something in support of Forestville ergo I am a forestville person.

take your blinkers off not all have your bias view of the world.

Reply #354903 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I would like to see the day when no coach complains about refs.
They all do it.If anyone says otherwise they are not at the games.
Umpires are to precious and cause most of the animosity towards themselves by being unapproachable.
I have seen refs in Div 1 try to incite players who ask the question of the ref as to why the call was made.This is uncalled for if they explained themselves every now and again there would be a lot less grief.
I have umpired several other sports and i am disappointed at the attitude of basketball umpires at this level.
Yes a ref may make a bad call if they are consistent in their interpretation so be it. But to miss hard calls then call soft fouls or penalise a team for questioning a call is soft.

Reply #354911 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Jono u say under 18s is young men...due to the stupid age grouping system in basketball a 14 year old can be playing u18s!!! 14 year olds being young men..I think not!

It's called boys basketball for a reason!

Reply #354912 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Until brain transplants and free optical laser surgery is included along with a course in ethics, officials will continue to ruin games with more frequency than Jack's opinions.

Reply #354915 | Report this post


razor  
Years ago

You hypocritically use the term "ethics". Any of you spectate subject to a Code of Conduct that supposed to be upheld by the clubs. It supports sportsmanship and abiding by umpires decisions. It's what sets examples. The finest sportspeople of my era include Barry Robran and Russell Ebert and you would never hear a peep of a complaint such as these. What, you really think any referee is trying to disadvantage any team/player/coach? They're all under scrutiny out there by the people that know better, evaluators, senior officials, peers and their own aspirations. At that level they are attempting to achieve the highest ideals and take their responsibility seriously every time on court. Much more so than a loser who finds it easy to blame some other factor for their failure. Have some respect or get out of the game. No I'm not a referee.

Reply #354934 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

How can the refs be under scrutiny when the umpire in charge sat on his rear end talking on his mobile phone all game?? Was probably ringing the police to organise the riot squad

Reply #354947 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

UIC or court supervisor was very visible in his orange shirt in an around the courts didn't see him sit down nor be on his mobile phone

Reply #354951 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Maybe the refs could ask the players why they made that turnover, or missed that lay up. Ask the coaches why they made that substitution or ran that offence.

They dont, so why should they be allowed to question refs (and yes, I think coaches can do so, at an appropriate stoppage).

I am not a ref, or related to one. Just an interested bystander....

Reply #354959 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

If they can create an iPhone that lets me do everything and anything I want, why haven't they created robots to umpire games! I'm sure they would have better personalities than most of the umpires out there!

Just one thing though, let's make sure when creating these umpiring robots that they have NO allegiances to any local clubs so that there is no CHEATING!!!!

Reply #354978 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Finally the pollitically incorrect C bomb has been dropped! Hooray!

Reply #354988 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

If referees have no club history where the hell are you getting referees from?

Reply #354990 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Bring in the Umpbots

Reply #355007 | Report this post


Juno  
Years ago

If players are coming in to u18's as 14 year olds then they can't be treated differently to the 16 and 17 year olds playing. Therefore they need to play hard.

The southern coach was teched, as he often is, for his demeanor to the referees. Any player can hang on the ring if it is unsafe below to let go. It was unsafe, and the coaches response was unacceptable.

Stop your whining about referees and focus on trying to win next seasons final instead of the one you just lost...

Reply #355024 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Juno
you are a tool
What choice to the boys have. They are made to play that grade because of the stupid age rules.
Any other sport they would still be playing under 16s.
Those born late in the year are penalised because of this.
Yet another reason why this sport struggles against others such as football.

Reply #355033 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Anon #990

If referees have no club history where the hell are you getting referees from?

I for one played miniball at a local stadium and then started my refereeing from there. No district association at all. I think you will find that there are a number of referees who do this - and choose the refereeing path over the playing path initially. Or may play at a very early age 10s 12s then decide to start refereeing.




In Victoria where they are based on Association model, referees start with one assocation then branch out to statewide. Does this mean a Knox referee will always favour a Knox team? - This is one eyed supporting to the maximum, and some of you think that the majority of referees are bias because of club or assocation affiliation, or any affiliation that you can muster up (this referees brother, goes to school with a boy, who is related to a boy, whose parents have a friend whos son plays for them) - its no wonder why you are such sore losers.


Oh wait this referee lives in the suburb of Marion, so they must, because they have so much suburban pride - blatantly favour South Adelaide... are you actually serious?

Some of you people need a serious reality check

Reply #355035 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Juno
You are a Ref aren't you??

Reply #355037 | Report this post


Juno  
Years ago

Definitely agree with you Anonymous 035! There are some very narrow minded and mis-informed individuals on here.

033 The boys don't have a choice, but I don't know of any 14 year olds playing 18's. And if they do, play the under 18's game not the younger game. It's most likely that if a 14 year old is playing under 18's, they're not going to get court time in div 1 anyway...

I'm not a ref, word just spreads fast through the basketball community in SA. That southern coach is one of the least liked coaches in the state.

Reply #355038 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Juno," teched as he often is" sums it up. Refs react to other refs comments and act accordingly.
As for affiliated refs it's an unpleasant fact that too many refs have family playing,girl and boy friends playing and in some case actually still play themselves for the club and ref at its stadium. In such a small sport officialdom has become incestuous.

Reply #355040 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Teched twice in a season, once in the grandfinal, the other time by the same ref!!

Reply #355041 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I'm confused at how at 14 year old is made to play under 18s at 14 even if he turned 15 during 2012 isn't he or she eligbile for u16s why would they be playing 18s?

Hey my birthday is in december and I know that I was always up a year early than someone born in january. Sucks my mother didn't have the foresight to have me on 1/1 for my basketball career but I am totally lost at why a 14 year old is playing 18s?

Reply #355043 | Report this post


perception  
Years ago

I have been accused of being a sturt person when officiating at Pasadena, accused of being a west person when at Port Adelaide. North Person when at Hillcrest. I am not tied to any club neither have wife,husband, boyfriend girlfriend, child, lover playing nor do i play for any club.

Perception is in the eye of the beholder.

Reply #355044 | Report this post


Juno  
Years ago

He doesn't have a good reputation around the league though regardless of how many tech's he has recieved.

Yeah I don't think it's possible for a 14 year old to be playing U18's. They would be a first year U16, so that idea is a little bit far-fetched.

Referees have just as diverse background as players. To say that they will be biased is completely wrong and narrow-minded. Referee's that make it to junior and senior grand finals have been scrutinised across 100's of games to that point and have likely been to national championships and been scrutinised on a national level. To say they are biased and cheating is undermining basketball in this state.

Reply #355047 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

So Juno your not a Ref how do you know the word has spread about the tigers coach, you hang out with the refs

Reply #355049 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Doesn't have a good reputation amongst the refs and probably doesn't care either Juno!! His players he coaches love him and a number of players from other clubs have gone to southern for the winter season to be coached by Leigh

Reply #355051 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Juno u dumb ass! If a child is born in december than at the start of the season he would be 14...he would then turn 15 in summer season and wouldn't be able to play u16 cos he would be turning 16 in that year! You have just shown everyone u have no idea...u must be a ref!

Reply #355054 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

if a player is 14 or not doesnt matter. No matter is playing against kids more then one calendar year older then them.

Under 18 is just a number. Doesn't mean they're playing against 18 year olds!

Reply #355056 | Report this post


Juno  
Years ago

And under 18s is the premier junior competition in the country. The next step up is youth league and aba. Therefore under 18s need to play physically and show respect on the court, something that Sam Johns does very well having been taught from a national level.

Reply #355063 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Juno you have it in for the southern coach don't you??

Reply #355067 | Report this post


Juno  
Years ago

I'm not saying that, I'm sure he contributed to Sams development too. All im saying is that he is not generally liked around the league

Reply #355068 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

When did basketball become a popularity contest! Juno, you've shown uhave no idea! Are u the type to go to a game to watch the umpires?

Reply #355071 | Report this post


Juno  
Years ago

No I am a parent and frequent games on a Friday night. I was there neutrally on Friday night.

Reply #355074 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

A Sturt parent??

Reply #355075 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

A bloke that needs tO get a life!

Reply #355077 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

A parent and a neutral supporter! In other words a parent of an umpire! Bang! U got nothing Juno!

Bang!

Reply #355078 | Report this post


razor  
Years ago

Seems more likely to be someone who's a TRUE basketball supporter.

Reply #355079 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

That black haired umpire is useless! I watched him in a game and he didn't get over the half way line once! Further more didn't even look interested! If he thinks he's too good to umpire under 18s then don't umpire it! Let someone else have a go!

There is a goofy type dude..tall umpires at hillcrest and marden... that umpires the under 18s who is far better than that other bloke! Why didn't he get a game?

Razor and Juno..u two are both mates and parents of umpires!

Reply #355081 | Report this post


Juno  
Years ago

You're right razor, case closed

Reply #355083 | Report this post


perception  
Years ago

So that means that Helen Gleeson president of Woodville, does not have a team in U18s but was watching the game can not be a unbias supporter of the game and she does not have children that referee.

Claire White, Woodville managment committe, no children who referee but can be watching Forestville V Southern as an impartial supporter.

Your bias is showing #355078
you are seeing problems where they do not exist to say that Juno can't be impartial without being a parent of ref, or being a ref themselves is bias to the max.

the above two ladies were in the audience, and if I can use two of them as examples there were sure to be more. Southern here are the ones who are coming off as being the sore losers. Blaming everyone and everything but themselves.

Reply #355084 | Report this post


Not present  
Years ago

I take it southern lost the game?

Reply #355088 | Report this post


Leigh Scott  
Years ago

I have been alerted to this site and what has been said on this forum, as the coach of the team, I and the players do not blame the umpires for us losing friday night. Forestville were better than us for the majority of the game and deserved to win! I said this exact same thing to Paul Arnott on saturday. To many missed shots, layups and missed foul shots cost us.

If the umpires in SA and people from other clubs don't like me that is fine, that is their choice, I am not involved in basketball to make friends with everyone, I know that the boys and girls that I coach, enjoy being coached by me and that the parents of the players are happy with me. My job is to teach players how to play basketball and be competitive.

I have umpired and understand what umpires go through and yes it can be a hard job at times. And yes some coaches go a bit overboard, i dont believe I do, sometimes maybe i could ask my questions a little better but hey i enjoy the competition. I just hope that if any umpire has a problem with me they dont use it against the kids because at the end of the day it's them that will be affected.

I will gladly talk to anybody at anytime about anything so if you see me at a game and want to chat come say hi, I wont bite even though some people obviously think i do.

Reply #355097 | Report this post


woodville30  
Years ago

How about the umpires being allowed to umpire a game to the rules instead of using the own interpertation of the rules. (too many grey areas)
There will always be contact, but enough is enough.
Let the skilled players show their skills instead of being manhandled all night.
Lets get basketball back to where is was, a fast & skill full game being enjoyed by players, parents, coaches & referees.

Reply #355100 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

They make up the rules so that no fouls are called so they can get to the pub quicker

Reply #355116 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Now that u have his attention, is anyone gonna say anything to the coach now??? Razor and Juno anything?

Reply #355138 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

perhaps the only thing that can be said to the coach now is he has some ugly parents that have gotten on here and brought the game down because of it.

Reply #355143 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Anon, tall goofy ref??

Reply #355154 | Report this post


razor  
Years ago

I hadn't directed any concern re the coach, my concern was over the prevailing attitudes being presented on this forum, some of which had been similarly reflected by sections of those present Friday night. Having said that, however, I admire the coach's response and would suggest that if the example of honesty, understanding and integrity demonstrated by that response were to be followed, there wouldn't be such an issue.

Reply #355159 | Report this post


mimas  
Years ago

Leigh, I know you and respect you mate, but at the risk of becoming engaged in this silly little shitfight, I'll remain anonymous.

I really think you've achieved nothing by responding here. Better to leave it alone and let others slag off at each other.

Reply #355165 | Report this post


daz  
Years ago

that shut them up,good on you coach

Reply #355171 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Maybe he should write on hoops during the game -that might stop him from getting a technical foul for acting like a 5 year old who has been told he isnt getting an ice block....

Reply #355197 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

anon above
I dare you to say that to his face!!

Reply #355268 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Forget the coach, forget the players because this should remain about the lowest standard of refereeing this state has seen for a decade.

Reply #355299 | Report this post


Juno  
Years ago

Afraid that part is over anon southern supporter. That was quashed by Leigh a few days ago....

Reply #355430 | Report this post




 

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