for the record the best players the play the game of basketball are larry bird and magic johnson

Attack the argument, not the individual. But I did like how you alternated between both.

Yes very Creative paying out there .....


I do disagre with Cheeze burger Jordan really did have the players to make better ... no matter how good one player is he isnt going to be able to just make players better out of nothing .... Jordan is the grestest player this game has ever seen due to the fact that he didnt have the players on his team he just lead the team through scoring and leadership... he took the team on his back and got them W's i dont know if bird and Magic could have been as succesful as they were if they had to play with the same team as jordan did ...

do u make your team mates better cheez or do they play better when your fouled out in the third ?

i agree with u cheezburger, in the early days jordan attempted to do it all by himself, in which he freely admitted to not trusting his team mates, and where did this get him, being continually knocked out by the pistons. It wasnt until his team inmproved and he had a good overall cast supporting him.

Secondly the reason why magic's teamates are well known and good players is becuae of magic e.g byron scott, michael cooper .

Only someone like magic or larry could make a terrible player like kurt Rambis into an offensive threat.

I beleive that magic is the greatest player the game has ever seen.
And i think that jordan although unbelievable player is the greatest marketed player.

Jordan may score but magic does more

pippen is an awesome player. He could score, pass , board and was one of the best defenders in the game. I feel that pippen is one of the most underatted playes in the league
The trouble is the second jordan left the bulls everyone bailed on the franchise and jumped off the bandwagon

and lets face it. The 80's is the greatest era of NBA. magic and bird dominated the greatest basketball era off all time.

And dont tell me early ninties was the greatest era of ball coz its simply not true. the nba was most succesful in the 90's coz it had marketible players and nba became more than basketball. but for pure basketball 80's is the best

What the hell are you guys talking about, it may be a little known fact but Jordan is one of only a couple of people (4 I think) that have averaged 25points 7 rebounds and 7 assists per game. You don't just average 7 assists with out making people better, you don't get 6 championships with the squad that he had ( in the first 3 championships at least) with out making people better and you don't get called the greatest player by nearly every analyst in the world with out making people better. He is the greatest player ever, how can you disagree with facts. Magic and bird had great careers but not as great as MJ.

Sorry I'll try again, I think MJ is the greatest but Magic will always be my favourite player.

Both had defficientcies early on in their games (mainly outside shooting) but improved as they progressed to superstardom.

Each were fantastic to watch in different ways. Now Jordan has set the bar so high, will there ever be a player to rise above the pack like he did again?

If Jordan didn't make people better they wouldn't have won 6 championships. He didn't beat teams all on his lonesome. As someone stated above he is one of only 4 player to average 25+ points, 7 boards and 7 assists. Cheezeburger this was a stupid thread simply because how can you compare Jordans team-mates to what Bird and Magic had? It's a no brainer Jordan was and always will be the greatest.

By the way he made Kerr pretty good when he gave him the 3 point shot to win the game.

I think it was a 2pointer Bizzy, i agree also though. I remember watching the 80s ball with the Lakers and Celtics!

What an era to be involved with!

Lebron will become the next greatest ever player! This season he averaged 27pts 7rbs 7ast @ the age of 20! has plenty of years left to mold his game!

Nothing will ever compate IMO with the 80's era of showtime basketball. Magic made the game fun with an uptempo share the ball around style. For this reason he will always be high on peoples favourites list.
Jordan was the whole package and he was about winning. Whatever his team needed whether it was 50 points, boards, assists or just awesome defence he delivered when it was needed. To say he didnt make his teammates better is just wrong! Longley - a slow tall redhead bloke was elevated to superstardom as he was part of the Bulls in the 90's. Pippen was a superstar rather than a just very good player and the list goes on. The Bulls were so succesful due to the individual brilliance of Jordan and the way that he AND Phil Jackson were able to build a team of great role players around him.
Just being briliant on the stats sheet is one thing - coupling that with winning is another story entirely - see Lakers05 as a perfect example!

Happy 23rd birthday Chump boy.

The main difference between the Bird/Magic era and the Jordan one is that Larry and Magic had a genuine rivalry against each other over the entirity of their career. Michael won 6 but after beating the Pistons no body challenged him for champiosnhips. Not because he was better than Laryr and Magic, but due to expansionism diluting the talent pool for the top teams. etc

Magic and Larry both came into the league and made their teams win straight away and did things that other people couldn't do. Magic was Finals MVP and won a championship in his rookie year. Larry won ROY but only every played to win. Neither were physically gifted like Michael. But both played the game the right way.

Michael Jordan is the greatest individual player (maybe Wlit Champerlain) to every play the game. But his career had aspects that difapoint a basketball purist. If he lacked athleticism like Magic and Larry he would not have been nearly as good.

So IMO MJ was a better player, individually, but we play a game of 5 on 5. So Magic and Larry are better.

What crap. Magic won in his rookie year because he had Kareem etc to play with.

Jordan had Brad Sellers. Who the hell is Brad Sellers.

Jordan won more championships then either Bird or Magic.

Whether Jordan was better because he was physically more gifted is irrelevent. I know a 5ft 6 fat dude that plays social ball at St Clair that can really play considering his physical status. That doesn't mean he's better than Willy Farley because Willy has been blessed with an athlete's body.

How can anyone say Bird and Magic were more complete players? Jordan won Defensive Player of the Year and was a regular on the All-Defensive team AND won the scoring title. Has anyone else done that?

You guys need to watch more Jordan games. Larry and Magic are all-time greats, but Jordan stands alone.

As a 20 year old rookie Magic scord 46 points had 16 rebonds and 12 assists in game 6 of the Finals without Kareem who was out injured. Thus leading the Laker to win the finals. He played from point guard to centre.

And Brad Sellers was actually drafted out of NC State in 88. In his rookie year Jordan had a good team which included Orlando Woolridge.

Actually I stated that Jordan was a better individual player while Magic and Larry were overall better players.

"Michael won 6 but after beating the Pistons no body challenged him for champiosnhips"

Jordan's Bulls had to get past Magic's Lakers in 91, Clyde's Blazers in 92, Barkley's Suns in 93 and then Stockton and Malone's Jazz in the late 90's

MJ is the greatest.

Well said A-Rod. Those teams he beat were awesome units. He also knocked off the Knicks in the Eastern playoffs who were pretty awesome at the time.

What about the Sonics? They were a great team in 96.

Not even close.

Sonics had 2 players. And role players. Utah same. Suns 1 star.

Look at the teams of the 80's.

Like Philly Dr J, Andrew Tonie, Barkley, Moses, Bobby Cunningham etc

or look at the Lakers and Celtic. They had to play each other to win.

Non of the teams you have mentioned are even close to them. Especially in depth.

magic won 5 championships in the greatest era of basketball.

"What crap. Magic won in his rookie year because he had Kareem etc to play with".

Lakers went from a non finals contender franchise the season before to winning the ship. And i dont have to mention game 6 , that was without kareem.

Jordan never beat anyteam with depth.

Jordans first championship against the lakers. quite frankly i think that the lakers were lucky to get to the finals. They had magic and worthy, they didnt have kareem and had a rookie Vlade Divac at center, aswell as an unknown supprting cast.

Tom Chambers, KJ, Dan Majerle, Danny Ainge, Cedric Ceballos to go with Sir Charles seems pretty deep to me

Just not in the year they played in the finals.

Champbers was retired.

KJ had some injury problems and was never and Allstar certainty.

Ainge was 30+ and on the downside. He was great back in the 80's when he played for the celtics.

Thunder Dan Allstar???

Ceballos. Had 1 good year when the Lakers sucked and that makes him a good player.

Did they even have a Centre.

Match them up with the 85 Cetlics.

Pg KJ v DJ winner DJ by a little
SG Ainge 93 v Ainge 85 winner 85
SF Majerle v Bird winner Bird
PF Barkley v McHale tie
C ??? v Parish Parish

Not even close.

Or the Lakers.

Magic
Scott
Worthy
Rambis
Jabbar

As good as Jordan was he never had to beat a team as good as either of these. Magic and Larry did.

It's pretty hard to compare teams from different era's as the game changes so much from era to era.......Jordan dominated all the teams with depth in the 90's just like Magic and Bird did in the 80's.

I still believe that Jordan bought out the best in the team that he had which they proved 6 times in 8 years.

At the risk of getting into an argument with all the haters...

How can you say Jordan was physically gifted so that doesn't make him the greatest. He still had to put in the work to get where he was, sure genetic play a part, but does that still not make him great? What if he sat around drinking all day and eating maccas, not training, would his "gift" carry him then. hell no. Remember early in his career he got beat up physically coz he wasn't strong enough, so he worked on that to adjust for the competition of his day.

bulls '91, '92, '93 champions, '94 MJ leaves... bulls didn't even feature. '95 MJ returns, Bulls then champions in '96, '97, '98. In '99 MJ leaves, and half his team realises they aint got nothin left so they jump ship too! Again a no feature!!!! but hell he can't make anyone better.

Just so i don't upset any of you precious little pettles, I still think Majic, Bird etc are great players, I think you are being very silly to say they are a class above Jordan, I'd put them in the same class, but with MJ on top, ie "the greatest", if you wanna use that term. but again that is my opinion.

Stop hating on a great just coz you a fan of another great.

Whoops, I too can't type, before someone shuts me down for spelling Magic incorrectly, that was just disrespectful to not check my spelling on such a great. Anon will surely have a dip at that when out boaring... or skyhook.

My bad.

Sonics had Payton, Kemp who were AWESOME in 96. Also had Schrempf who is a 3 time all-star, 2 time 6th man of the year, Perkins, Hawkins, McMillan. Sonics had the best record in the L that year, as did the Suns in '93.

Big Oliver Miller was their Centre, also had a great rookie in Richard Dumas.

How can anyone with any basketball knowledge say Jordan never beat a team with depth?

Portland? They had 4 all-stars that year. Drexler, Porter, Duckworth and Robinson. Also had Danny Ainge.

I will concede that they did have Alaa Abdelnaby on the bench, which automatically excludes you from winning anything...

You also have to look at teams the Bulls beat to get to the Finals from the East. There were some great teams there. The Cavs of 92/93 had 4 all-stars and quality role players Daugherty, Price, Nance, Williams with Wilkins, Brandon backing up. And the Knicks, Pistons etc

Cheezeburger how did Bird make Walton such a good player when he was MVP of the league when he played for Portland you are naming big name players and saying that Bird and Magic made them im pretty sure that undersized pf would agree that Magic didnt make Kareem.

on the grand scheme of things players like majerle, chambers and KJ arnt that fantastic. They happened to be in the nba when teams were the most marketbable and the nba became glitz and glamour. as far as ability they cant match up with stars of the 80's.

And as far as the sonics go george karl recently said that marcus camby was the greatest big man he ever coached and he coached shawn kemp. So this shows that kemp was a mere showman dunker who wasnt as great as the tv commercials made him to be. Sonics had payton whose awesome, kemp struggles

dont talk to me about the early ninties cavs. They struggled and thats fact. you cant be a good team with a franchise player is mark price.

Knicks all they had was ewing, hes awesome. dont talk about starks hes the worst.

its not a case of hating , i just think magic is the greatest. I reckon jordan is in the same class as magic and bird etc. but magic was more of a team player and therefor hes better.

cheezburger, Mark Price had game, made the 2nd dream team! even so i believe Brad Daughtery was their franchise player at the time.

Kemp struggled? Cheezeburger, your brain consists of Oreo McFlurry. Kemp was in Dream Team 2, averaged 25 and 14 in 96. Was the most dominant PF in the league. Schrempf was also an all-star and dunked on Mutumbo 3 times that season. Payton battled Stockton for assists leader and averaged over 10 a game. Also lead the L in steals.

I think you spent your Saturdays watching Power Rangers videos in the mid-90's. Don't pretend to know 'ball across 3 decades if you haven't seen it. If you want some videos/dvd's to educate yourself, let me know.

well if george karl thinks that marcus camby is the best big man hes ever coached why is there no videos of marcus camby why doesnt camby have shoes deals. coz he didnt dunk like kemp and there wasnt million dollar commercial campaigns about him.

marcus camby is never talked about even though he happens to be one of the best centers in the league

the doctor are you saying you no more about basketball than george karl.

No, just Cheezeburger and you...

makr price was a shooter and thats it. the next thing your gonna tell me is the eelo (or however us spell his name) of the cavs was good. cavs struggled

80's all the way baby

by the way payton is awesome shrempf is better than kemp.

kemp is the most overated player ever

Could I add another player as a contender for the "greatest".
The Big "O", Oscar Robinson, who at 6'5",averaged a triple double for an entire season and had a lifetime average (14 seasons) of 25.7 ppg, 7.5 rpg and 9.5 apg. Not too shabby!

Wilt Chamberlain also put up good numbers of 30.1 ppg, 22.9 rpg and 4.4 apg although he did have his 7'1" height as a distinct advantage at that time

thats why your just another jordan fan boy who says hes the greatest because you got sucked in to all the marketing campaigns, without considering anybody else

i completley agree with "charles" most people dont think basketball existed before 1990.

Big O and wilt are also in the race as the greatest. 60's and 70's ball is awesome and better than the ninties

Please stop, you're making me laugh. Listen to Magic Johnson himself commentate the Portland/Chicago Finals, or the series agianst the Knicks in '92. He continually says Jordan is the greatest of all-time, including himself. But I guess you haven't seen those games. You were still playing Power Rangers with your year 2 classmates.

Are you saying you know more than Magic about basketball?

"Schrempf was also an all-star and dunked on Mutumbo 3 times that season"

so doc , is that your definition of a good player. i rate shrempf, but i now have figured out what your standards are for good players, if you can dunk apparently you can play.

Damn straight Charles. Averaged a triple double. It's absurd.

well have you ever heard of class doc. ofcourse thats the classy thing to say, and id expect that from a man of stature such as magic.

jordan on the other hand i dunno

You miss the point. I'm commenting on the strength of the teams the Bulls beat. By saying you rated Schrempf, you back up my point. The Sonics were an awesome team that year. Coached by Karl, whom you agree is a great basketball mind.

Schrempf is only one German basketball player....

Do you get the joke undersized pf? or weren't you around to understand it?

Class. Sure Magic had class. That's why he contracted HIV from a prostitute. Jordan only got caught gambling on golf.

Mike Price is the only Cavalier to be named to an All-NBA Team more than once (1988-89, 1991-94), including All-NBA First Team in 1992-93. Not just a shooter, Price ranked in the top 10 in the league in assists in five of his nine seasons as a Cavalier.

Undersized pf, it's Friday, I'm going to get drunk. We will continue this another time. Do I know you? I have suspicions you are a Woodville player, but I'm not sure

relax brown dog.

you sure get fired up over a little debate.

magic = greatest


GO BLACKS 04'

I knew it... hook shots baby. I coach the first game tomorrow. Should be an interesting season mate.

yeh no shit i might get out too some games.

lol u headin to glenelg tonite for richo

post #32960 was not from me thedoctor u hack.someone used my alias.

once again i saved your forum issac is was getting dull for the last 2 months until, i post a new contravsersial thread

if jordan couldnt jump as he did,would he still be known as the greatest player?.no,becuase he wouldnt be able to dunk.thats all he is commonly known for.larry bird couldnt jump over a 10 cent coin,so he hustling and playing team basketball.

cheezeburger...it is better to remain silent and be thought of as a fool, then to speak out, and remove all doubt.
you are an idiot.

Jordan by a country mile. Not much else to say. Cheeseburger, you're a stirrer but sadly, everyone else fell for it.

Best outside shooter - Larry Bird, easily, Jordan and Magic both adequate rather than great
Best passer - Magic with Bird not too far behind
Best defender - Jordan by an absolute mile
Best athlete - Jordan, daylight 2nd, Magic 3rd, more daylight 4th, 5th, 6th etc
Best rebounder - I'd go a 3-way tie, considering size, position played, role on team
Best clutch performer - Jordan the best of all-time, Bird probably 2nd best of all-time, Magic slightly behind
Competitiveness - I'd probably go for MJ but more like a 3-way tie. They were all super-competitive in their own ways
Versatility - Magic gets my vote here (the triple double king). Bird well behind in 2nd but probably just ahead of MJ
Basketball brain - All top-notch, but I'm gonna go Bird 1st, the other 2 tied for 2nd
Making team-mates better - been argued throughout this thread but I'd go Magic, Bird and MJ
Pure talent - Jordan definitely with Magic 2nd. Bird well behind in this category but he arguably got the most of what God gave him out of any basketballer in history
Durability - Probably MJ, only had 1 long-term injury in his career although he did spend significant time on the sidelines (retirements) which enabled him to play up to the age of 40. Magic was durable enough but he retired as a player aged 31 (before coming back briefly at 36). Bird must rank 3rd here - second half of his career blighted by back problems, he retired aged 35 and probably peaked at around 30-31
Winning - Jordan won 6 championships in 2 different eras, Magic 5, Bird 3. Magic gets my vote here. He did it against the might of the Celtics and the Sixers for the most part, while all of MJ's championships came against teams that had fine seasons and a wealth of talent but without dominant centres. A real test would have been Houston with Hakeem at his peak taking on Bill Cartwright or Luc Longley.

Summary - Jordan 1st, Magic and Bird equal runner-up

Larry Bird in his Rookie Year pulled the Celtics from the bottom of the ladder and then one the 'NBA Championship' in that year, the guy used to practise on a hay field

(#33046)

"Best rebounder - I'd go a 3-way tie, considering size, position played, role on team"

magic and bird were superior rebounders to jordan so easy on that three way tie, apart from that id say your standing are pretty correct, except ofcourse for the summary

magics the greatest, after all he made kurt rambis an offensive threat

imagine this.

Your versing the lakers and you have to put your best defender on magic to try and slow his scoring, because everybody knows he can devestate teams with his scoring, but then you have to play awesome defense of players like AC Green and kurt rambis becase they are made supreme offensive weapons by magic.

now how do you play a team like this. Normally struggling role players have become awesome weapons.

it was simpler guarding the bulls. double or triple team jordan and try and shut him down.

Now obviously it was extremly hard to stop jordan, and the bulls usually got the win, but teams new what they had to do. With the lakers there was no good way of defeating the lakers.

Jordan could have been unquestionably, with no debate the greatest ever, because he attracted so much attention on offence. If hed attract that much defence he could have passed out of it more and could have bceome the ultimate unbeatable weapon. But he was more selfish and always tried to score himself.

yer i agree eventhough he did average 7 assists a game or whatever it is if he stopped trying to break through double/triple teams he would have lead the league in assists

80s era was the toughest era of bball.bird and magic were mauled by opposition players while jordan was protected by his refs.means bird and magic had to work harder for everything they got on court.i surpose none of yous would know becuase the only footage you see is of jordans and the 90s era of ball.

yous are all talking to many stats.
Look at it this way.
You say that Jordan couldn't have won in the Bird/Magic era..
Take Magic off the Lakers and put Jordan in his place.. would they have still won.. Most deffiently.
Take Bird off the Celtics and put Jordan in his place.. would they have still won.. Most deffiently.
Take Magic or Bird and put one of them on the 96 Bulls.. would they have won 72 games.. Not a chance.

"bird and magic were mauled by opposition players while jordan was protected by his refs.means bird and magic had to work harder for everything "

Look at some of the hard fouls that the ref's didn't call on the Pistons in the 80's and 90's and ill think youll find that Jordan was not protected more than anyone else .. he just drove the basket more than Bird and Magic.

Magic was awesome on the break and had handy range when he needed it too, but Jordan used to challenge the defenders in the air and going over them drew contact that was probably more visible.

Bird gave as good as he got and was not as athletic obviously, but i dont think he would cry 'foul' of the ref s too often because his style of defence was smothering and involved a lot of contact too.

Cheeseburger,
I just think that your statement was a little harsh on the state of the leagues ref's at the time.

I watched a 92 Blazers game the other day and any thoughts about them not having any depth needs to be dismissed immediately - do you hear me DISMISSED!
They two all stars that year in Porter and Drexler, Former All stars Danny Ainge (who was still playing really well) and Kevin Duckworth (AS in 89 and 91), Jerome Kersey and Buck Williams were the ultimate role players. They also had Cliff Robinson, a young Robert Pack, an in form Mark Bryant and of course who could forget Alaa Abdenlaby or however you spell it (that last one was for thedoctor).
That Blazers team was pretty awesome and Clyde was unstoppable that year.

Anyway back to the topic - Jordan best and he DID have to beat teams with depth