Years ago

Bevo: NBL too rough, so why would Lisch stay

Awkward to convey the two key things from Bevo's article in a title, but read the piece and you'll get the picture. And maybe you'll scoff...

"I look at a star import like Kevin Lisch, the MVP of the NBL, and the only way to slow him down is to bump and hold and grind him down, and belt him coming off screens. It's disappointing to think Australia could lose a guy like him because, why would he want to continue putting up with that? He might as well play in another league, possibly earn more money, and not have to worry about his physical well being every time he steps out onto the court."

Topic #30891 | Report this topic

Years ago

I've already had a number of players speak up against this story/Bevo/Wildcats this morning. If I can (league might veto it) I'll post the players and a couple of coaches reactions on the site today.

BUT - What a load of shit.

Reply #405742 | Report this post

Years ago

I know that I coach a physical basketball team, but we go out there and look to play pressure defence, not to push, shove and hold our opposition because we don't like to play that way.

That most definitely got a scoff out of me

Reply #405743 | Report this post

Years ago

Now watch the s%^t called out of their game this weekend.
Bevo makes good points, but now that he's highlighted it they will call it tighter.

Also what a wonderful thought, the Coaches and clubs decide how the game should be called, NOT the Referee's/Referee management going off on their own tangent without consultation.
Sometimes i think the League/Referee's forget what the game is about.
SEABL suffers the same issues, a Manager who is out of touch with what the Teams and Coaches want.

Reply #405745 | Report this post

Years ago

Nothing wrong with that! Every other team sayz that when they play the cats why cant bevo? Like he said kev gets hammered, prime exampl when walker just jumps on him and the refs call a jump ball? Didnt ask for special treatmeant! Just waiting for this thread to come up! Here we go and see every one start on bevo!

Reply #405748 | Report this post

Years ago

You Perth supporters are so far away from everyone in the rest of Australia that you have actually lost a grip on reality!

NO ONE else thinks that way, NO ONE!

Reply #405752 | Report this post

Years ago

Speaking to numerous players from various teams this year. The theme is consistent, Perth play hard and dirty, whilst the Breakers play hard and fair.

Reply #405753 | Report this post

Years ago

Flynnsane great point!

Perth say people just hate Perth because they win.

If that's the case then why don't the back to back champions get into scuffles? It's because they play hard, but are not dirty. Other teams respect them.

Reply #405754 | Report this post

Years ago

No one wants to get in a scuffle with Vukona?

Reply #405755 | Report this post

The Situation  
Years ago

Define "dirty."

Reply #405760 | Report this post

Years ago

Vukona is a highly respected player; everyone knows he plays hard and fair. Yes, he'll step up for a team mate, he'll push for an OBoard but he genuinely works hard!

Wagstaff, Redhage, Knight just push and shove, then complain when it is done to them, they CONSTANTLY suck up to refs after every call, they genuinely look shocked after each and every foul call, but here is the clincher, THEY FLOP!

Dont push & shove then flop when someone does it back to you.

Reply #405763 | Report this post

Years ago

Bevo is right that the NBL style needs to change as it is too rough and dirty, but at the same time him and his team are the biggest culprits of these things imo.

If he cleaned up how he taught his players to defend that would go along way to fixing the problem, as its his Wildcats teams in recent years who have played this way and and had alot of success in doing so, which forces the rest of the league to change to that style to be able to compete with them.

Teams like NZ arent dirty imo, they play hard and even then they arent overly physical unless you 'throw the first punch'. They play hard and intense defence but not too many cheap shots. They learnt to play really physical and grind out a game if need be to combat Perth, if perth relaxed it, they would for sure and it would be a much more free flowing game.

I have seen many occassions guys like Robbins, Redhage make some very overly physical/dirty plays.

Bevo great you can see the issue, now you need to take ownership and help fix it in the way that you coach and your team plays.

The easiest thing is to get refs to call more fouls, high foul counts wont be an issue, and wont last long, as say they tighten up. If Redhage, Knight, Wagstaff all have 2-3 fouls in the first 5 mins then they would be forced to adjust straight away, so wouldnt take long to tighten it up imo. Something the league should definatly get the refs to do. This may also help bring Perth back to the pack as it will be the test as to who are the better basketballers not the toughest/dirtiest players who can wear you down the longest, which it currently is.

Look at the 98/99 36ers teams with guys like Mee on the team, one of the best defensive teams going around and basically no one would consider them dirty overall in the way they went about it. Thats how basketball should be played.

As a whole dont mind how NZ go about it so current teams should model there game on them.

Reply #405765 | Report this post

Years ago

Regardless of whether we love Perth or hate them, I fully agree with his comments that the game has been allowed to degenerate into a wrestling match.

It's the best game in the world when players are able to show their skills in safety. Make it safer and we'll see better quality games.**

As Bevo said "I hope that the NBL can get back to entertaining fans with pure basketball as soon as possible."

** REAL quality will come when most of our players can hit shots from outside the key, instead of just being selected for their potential ability to dunk.

Reply #405766 | Report this post

Years ago

Exactly anon 763,

I love watching Vukona play,

cant stand watching guys like Redhage and Wagstaff at times for the exact reasons you said.

The breakers suffocated the 36ers to get the win after a large half time deficit, but they did through great team defense and well executed traps and high pressure and intensity, i dont remember seeing anything id consider dirty.

Every time i see Perth play the 36ers live, i always get frustrated at watching Redhage and Wagstaff play, they are both talented, but do heaps of dirty things ie shoving, holding, flopping and get away with it, which i hate. The thing i hate the most is that both these guys have some good skills so dont need to do this stuff to be effective. So a large part of this is coaching imo, so Bevo tidy up your act dont blame everyone else, especially given the whole team does it.

Reply #405767 | Report this post

Years ago

In their 22 games, Perth have had 7 games where they've had more fouls called against them than their opposition, 2 games where they had the same fouls against and on them and 13 where they got fewer fouls called on them than on the opposition. Of the 7 where they had more fouls, three games were against Wollongong - who commit the fewest fouls per game of all teams in the league (15.3 per game - next lowest is Townsville, at 18.3 per game). Two of those games were Perth's first two games of the season.

In the 15 games where the opposition had more fouls called on them than Perth got, the opposition averaged 3.5 more fouls per game (ranging from 1 more to 7 more).

I don't get a sense that Perth are being hard done by in the foul calls from these sorts of numbers.

With Beveridge's broader point about the league becoming too rough (or to use the popular euphemism - "too physical"), I completely agree. However, I think his unsubtle campaign for more fouls to be called against Perth's opponents is laughable.

Interestingly, there are 9 fewer fouls called per game in Perth's home games, compared to their away games. They're spread across both teams - about 4.5 fouls fewer per game for Perth and their opponents at home. Says a lot about the standard of refereeing in Perth's home games.

Reply #405770 | Report this post

Years ago

The last Tigers game at AA the referees did try to 'clean the game up', calling 19 fouls on the Tigers in the first half. After half time? Only 7 fouls called on the Tiges.

Either the Tigers suddenly became saints or the refs swallowed their whistles in order to even out the foul count. Final foul count 26-22, in a half where the Tigers were even more aggressive defensively than in the first half. So I don't think the 'call lots of fouls in the first few minutes' argument does necessarily solve the problem.

Reply #405771 | Report this post

Dunkin' Dan  
Years ago

Bevo's team plays to whatever point the refs are going to allow on the night. I really don't see why anyone can hate that. Any player would be stupid not to, and would really not be doing their job properly.

I don't see any conflict at all in a team that plays hard wanting the game to be called less physically. Personally I am 100% supportive of the idea of teams getting together before next season and trying to improve the way the NBL is called. There's no doubt in my mind that the league would attract more fans if it had a more free-flowing style of play.

Reply #405772 | Report this post

Years ago

opposition teams shoot 9FTs per game less in Perth than they do when Perth play away...

Reply #405774 | Report this post

The Situation  
Years ago

Agree with Dunkin Dan. There is nothing stopping other teams playing with the same intensity that the Cats do, instead of sooking about it all game.

I do find it strange that Bevo came out to complain about physicality when its obvious that his teams (especially this years) play an incredibly physically brand of basketball. A bit of gamesmanship, perhaps?

I keep hearing the "dirty" accusation thrown around. To me, that means throwing elbows, cheap shots, trying to injure with hard fouls etc. That isn't the Wildcats at all.

Reply #405775 | Report this post

Years ago

U guy's must watch a differnt nz team! Vukona and boucher should be fouled out in the 1st 5min! The worst is cj bruton he will flop cry anythimg to get the foul! U guys are joke on here about the way u guys go about the cats and the supporters! Would u be saying this if ure team played the way they do and the support they get from there fans!

Reply #405776 | Report this post

Years ago

It will be interesting to see how Butler Reid and Houghton go about calling the game tonight

Reply #405778 | Report this post

Years ago

Bevo has apparently been training at WAAPA in order to say all this with a straight face

Reply #405785 | Report this post

Years ago

Bit off topic..

But the amount of times players complain in the NBL is just stupid.

Not a fan of how strict the NBA calls technical fouls. That's a little too extreme IMO

But maybe the NBL needs to start handing out technical fouls.

I've watched games where 90% of fouls called are argued. I know the standard of reffing isn't amazing, but players continue to argue calls which are right.

Some of the worst complainers are Goulding (every single time), Bruce and i would admit Bruton can be bad sometimes.

Reply #405787 | Report this post

Years ago

Getting away from the notion that Bevo is looking for some calls to go his way, even taking into consideration the bias and sometimes not too nice comments being made about this topic, he has a point!

Overall, basketball has become quite physical, but this is not something which has occurred this season, or in the last few years...

Take a close look guys, basketball has been quite physical, with pushing, holding and flopping for ages. You just need to look at old video from the 80's or 90's and see how other teams targeted the Jordan's of their league...

The difference is that we now have many more ways to discuss it, complain about it and highlight it!

Rules are rules, they have not changed, have they???

Reply #405791 | Report this post

Years ago

MACDUB, don't forget Saville!

Bevo's team plays to whatever point the refs are going to allow on the night. I really don't see why anyone can hate that.
Isn't Bevo the one, in a way, who just hated on it in the media?

- Lisch will leave unless other teams can't do what my team does.

- Redhage will be forced out by a points cap that is meant to give other teams a chance at competing with my mega-successful club.

Reply #405792 | Report this post

Years ago

Oh the irony given how much holding & grappling the Wildcats players do. Bevo is the new Goorjian.

Reply #405793 | Report this post

Years ago

XY, it may have worked if the refs held their nerve and kept calling fouls rather than swallowing the whistle in the 2nd half.

Hard to play anything but legal defence when youve got half your team fouled out by the start of the 4th!

Reply #405794 | Report this post

Years ago

Lol @ cats82. Not sure if trolling or 12 years old...

Reply #405795 | Report this post

Years ago

Excellent point MACDUB, perfect example was last Sundays Game and Im pretty sure it was Burston who got called for a foul in a rebounding clash and the look on his face and ensuing whinge made it look like the worst call ever made. Then the replay came up and there he was with a big handful of Hires(?) singlet holding him down.

Just play the whistle and the dodgy calls will work themselves out over the game

Reply #405796 | Report this post

Years ago

A lot of the problem stems back to training habits. Go watch an NBL team train, hand checking, bumping, blocking, holding etc all go un stopped.
The smart Coaches clean up their training sessions so bad habits don't creep into their games.

Serial complainers normally come from clubs that allow too much to happen in their trainings and then come game time don't like having to adjust.

Reply #405797 | Report this post

Camel 31  
Years ago

So , a few years ago in Darwin preseason , the coaches met and asked refs to let it go and they wouldn't yell out at refs . Ninnis didn't go and gotta tech for yelling at refs.
The game was rougher then , made easier for Cameron and Saville. Later , Allan Westover : " The game flows better when called correctly . "

I don't think Lisch ever complains , just gets on with it .

Reply #405799 | Report this post

Years ago

not trying to start anything here, but for those who say perth play dirtier than NZ, you just need to look back at Game 2 of last year's GF series. Lisch trips over an NZ player, both end up on the floor, Lisch gets up, offers a hand to the NZ player, NZ player goes ape at Lisch, the Wilkinson gets involved and gets a techie. No need for that reaction when Lisch is simply trying to show sportsmanship.

The thing that sticks out in my mind from that incident is CJ's reaction. he was furious with his team. and rightly so.

Reply #405800 | Report this post

Years ago

"Lol @ cats82. Not sure if trolling or 12 years old..."

Why not both?
They breed 'em young these days.

Reply #405802 | Report this post

Years ago

Perth don't play dirtier at all that's ridiculous, to suggest that means you're suggesting Perth are allowed to get away with stuff in games other teams aren't which is plain dumb.
They simply play to the standard the officials allow to happen and push the limits which ALL teams should be doing.
If other teams want to get out muscled then get a better strength and conditioning coach or stop recruiting weeds.

Reply #405803 | Report this post

The Situation  
Years ago

Still waiting for someone to define dirty. Also, if someone can help translate any one of Camel31's posts, that'd be good too.

Reply #405804 | Report this post

Years ago

Wildcats play to what the refs are calling on the night.. A good coach ( Bevo ) will alter the way the team plays if they dont adjust themselves.

To get specific re: Lisch getting hounded on the court, when Walker jumped on Lisch last Sunday and it was a jump ball was an absolute joke, that should have been a straight up unsportsmanlike like foul.

Reply #405807 | Report this post

Years ago

^^^^^^^^ Spot on.

Taking advantage of what you're given is not playing dirty, its playing smart.

Reply #405808 | Report this post

Years ago

They simply play to the standard the officials allow to happen and push the limits which ALL teams should be doing.
Bevo's comments say he thinks teams should NOT be doing it.

Reply #405809 | Report this post

Years ago

"Define dirty"

- your momma.

Sorry Situation, childish I know, but you put it on a plate, had to be delivered.

Only joking of course, your Mother is probably a very nice person. Oh and seriously re the question, can't answer, to subjective.

Reply #405811 | Report this post

Years ago

Will Bevo be performing at the Fringe?

Reply #405812 | Report this post

Years ago

I see it as a cry for help from Bevo. He knows he's at fault in popularising this style of play, but he can't help but coach it because of the success his team has had employing it. The only way he can stop it is if the officials make him stop it by calling the game properly.

Reply #405813 | Report this post

Years ago

Exactly Isaac and Statman,

Its Bevos hypocicy that i dont like about it, complaining about something that his team is by far the worse offender.

Aslong as the refs call it tight from start to finish in all circumstances it will clean the game up, the reason it didnt work in wildcats v tigers is they didnt keep up with it, if they had it would have.

Just watch how many games/quaters it takes the wildcats to adjust when Knight, Wagstaff, Redhage are getting a high number of fouls in a very short spoace of time, that alone will clean the game up, and it is kept up quater after quater, game after game.

Most other teams are not as guilty as Perth so would be less of an adjustment for them.

I think the Bevo and Goorj comparison is in many ways fair. Both pushed the envelope with the physical play and got away with it in many ways. In some cases it helps them it also hurts them in many ways imo.

Look at both of there championship to top 2 on the ladder ratio, its quite low for guys who have regularly been in the top 2 and always had plenty of talent.

Im personally both would acheive more if they focussed more on a free flowing game of basketball then physically beating down there opposition, especially with the talent they have at there disposal. Its the reason why 36ers teams regularly beat Bevo/Gorj teams is they have never got caught up with the physical stuff, aslong as they could with stand it and keep the ball moving and shots dropping they would beat it quite easily, 98/99 36ers a perfect example, helped by having Mee who was bigger than most of the opposing guards so harder for them to really beat up on him. I remember in one of Hodges first games v the Goorj coached kings they were trying to beat up on our smaller guards so they let Hodge bring the ball up, he had no problems with the smaller kings guards and hence we won the game in good fassion as we played basketball! If you want to see how to beat the physical teams like them, watch the current Breakers and 98/99 36ers, great example how to score well against these teams, a good sized high callibre pg helps ie Mee and Jackson, they also managed to smother opposition teams with playing LEGAL defense.

Im also convincedRedhage and Wagstaff would be better if they concentrated on basketball more than being physical and grabbing there opponents, seen many games where both could have done better if they hadnt lost the plot over a couple of wrestling matches.

Im not a fan of there coaching, even though both are fairly successful, i argue they would be more successfull if they coached a cleaner game, its not like they dont have talented squads so need to over compensate to beat more talented opponents.

These are reasons why i loved watching Smyth teams and McLeod is my favourite of the current coaches. Both coach a free flowing style, great to watch and have been very successful, have teams that can often deal with and beat these physical teams without lowering themselves to their level.

Having said that i think Bevo and/or McLeod should be the next Boomers coaches, Bevo is a very good coach, great with young players and veterans, guys seem to love playing for him and he gets great effort out of them all game every game, just wish he would cut the hypocritical coments and clean up his teams style a bit.

As far as Bevos complaint he is right it does need to be cleaned up by the refs, but the coaches ie him are also at fault big time. If both adjust then the game will be much better in a short space of time.

As far as comlaining we may lose Lisch and/or Redhage as part of his complaints i dont see the point, do you think any other team cares if those guys are forced from Perth? I dont if anything it makes them available to be snapped up from an opponent. Also if Lisch leaves i doubt it would have anything to do with the reffing it will be more like bigger $$ overseas or wife wants to live near family interstate or something like that. So Bevo dont bother with this stuff, no opponent cares if you lose 2 of your better players and would be happy to snap them up if you do.

Reply #405814 | Report this post

Years ago

Yea im 12 and trolling some ones mum ;) if u dont like it physical go watch golf! Instead of bitching about redhage and wags.

Reply #405816 | Report this post

Years ago

That's the biggest Pot Kettle Black story I've ever seen.

Reply #405817 | Report this post

Years ago

Exactly Hendo, why many of us scoff at reading it.

Reply #405819 | Report this post

Years ago

There was no hypocrisy from Beveridge in this.

He responded to a question in the press conference and said he hates how physical the NBL has become. He said the Wildcats were very much a part of that, and that it was players, coaches, refs and HQ all partially to blame for making it a league where you have to be ultra-physical to succeed.

He is just saying what many players, coaches and observers say, that the league needs to sit down in the off-season and fix this, and then follow it up with consistent enforcement of the rules by the officials come the new season.

This is a trend that started long ago, but amped up via the Kings, Bullets, Dragons, Wildcats, Breakers and Blaze.

Reply #405820 | Report this post

The Situation  
Years ago

BigAds, no harm in that "yo mama" joke. I took it on the chin, just like your mum ;-)

Reply #405821 | Report this post

Years ago

@paul "if you arent part of the solution you are part of the problem"

If Bevo is that upset and believes what he says why wouldn't he change first?

Reply #405822 | Report this post

Years ago

But if coaches like Bevo think its too physical why dont they coach differenly and clean it up themselves?

not push the limit of what you can get away with, prove that you can play a clean game of basketball and win regardless of the reffing.

Im sure the wildcats would still be a strong team if they cleaned up there defense, so why wait for the refs to tighten up, just coach the players to play clean? What are you waiting for if you beleive its ruining our game Bevo?

Thats what i liked about Smyth and McLeod they seem to try and beat the over physical teams through good ball movement and shooting, ie basketball, and had plenty of success in doing so along the way, they didnt simply say the refs let us tackle our opponents so we should do it.

Reply #405823 | Report this post

Years ago

Why would you clean it up for just your team when it disadvantages you?

This is a league trend that has been going on for many years, it's much bigger than one club. The only way to fix it is via a league-wide approach, and that's exactly what Beveridge is saying.

Reply #405824 | Report this post

Years ago

Because if Bevo fails Anne his team misses the finals he would get sacked and would not be in line to get the Australian job.

Reply #405825 | Report this post

Years ago

From memory, refs were told to allow more physical stuff because the Boomers played 'too nice' and we kept getting hammered in internationals and couldn't cope.

I doubt if Bevo will have the Boomers playing 'nice' if he gets the job as head coach.

Reply #405826 | Report this post

Years ago

I disagree it is a league trend

Perth are the undisputed WWE champions at this game style and are the only team that employs these tactics consistently.

How many teams get into chest bumping, finger pointing exchanges outside the Wildcats?

It is every week with Perth and others on odd occasions eg Tigers and Sydney

Without going through the stats i would bet there has been a USF or tech called in every Perth game this season.

Reply #405827 | Report this post

The Situation  
Years ago

"How many teams get into chest bumping, finger pointing exchanges outside the Wildcats?

Without going through the stats i would bet there has been a USF or tech called in every Perth game this season."

Is your point that Perth get the techs/USFs, and start the chest bumping etc, or that their opponents do it because of Perth?

Reply #405828 | Report this post

Years ago

But would it disadvantage you (ie Perth)?

I dont think it would, spend more time concnetrating developing there guards jump shots and offensive skills, the team would be heaps better than focus on defense and pushing the envelope.

I also argue that Redhage, Wagstaff would both be better players if they played cleaner as
a. they would be less focussed on the next wrestling match, which imo distracts them at times and detracts big time from there performance, this i think is the biggest improvement as both turn into wrestlers not basketball players at times.
b. would cop less back, so it would be easier for them
c. less foul trouble at times, mean they could contribute more.

I again use McLeod as a successful coach who doesnt push the envelope physically, if he coached Perth using his style and not bothering with the physical crap they would be even better than they currently are imo.

McLeods Hawks have been a bit less successful due to less resources and talent and more constant injuries than Perth, but still have come fairly close most seasons all considered, not due to him not pushing the limits on pushing, grabbing, etc.

I dont see how cleaning up the game style is a disadvantage to anyone, if your team relies on the wrestling to win, then maybe you need to address things like offensive and defensive structure, recruitment, etc. Perth have all of these things done well, so cleaning up there game would not hurt them, would still be top 2 imo, and imo would have a better chance of beating NZ if they did. Hence if Bevo believes in his statement then be the first to work at solving it, and be part of the solution not just winge about the problem. To me thats the responsibility of those in positions of power.

Its not good enough to say 'they let me get away with it so im going to do it', if its not the right thing to do and you even state it is wrong. Nothing is justified because you simply didnt get caught or punnished for it.

So that is why he should do it, its simply the right thing to do, especially if he beleives in what he spoke about. If it did disadvantage Perth, which i dont think it would, it would be temporary anyway as the whole league would be cleaned up so no one would be able to do it against them either. To me thats more reason to be first to changed, so when the refs do start calling it tighter it wont hurt you.

Whats better,

a. adjusting as the refs do, meaning both teams have a high foul count, for atleast a few quaters/gmes resulting in more minutes for the bench players on both teams and less of a spectacle for the fans.

b. adjusting before the refs do, meaning when the refs tighten up you can continue business as usual, meaning if anything your opposition will have a higher foul count, there starters are benched longer as a result, meaning your starters play bigger minutes v opposition bench making it a easier game to win.

I chose option b every time.

Yes refs need to tighten up, but coaches should do it with there tactics aswell, if not before the refs do.

Reply #405830 | Report this post

Years ago

What i am saying is that there is always an issue that the refs need to address when Perth play. Usually the retaliator is tagged with the foul

Walker and Wagstaff
Wagstaff and Johnson
Robbins and joining in
Ervin USF last week

Last week , perth v tigers, watch the way Wagstaff accidentally got tangled up with Ballinger off the ball, Redhage "accidentally" kicks Goulding whilst on the ground etc etc

all the stuff that Bevo wants to stamp out, but it is his team who is leading the way. If he is at all serious he will drag players when he sees them behaving against his wishes

Reply #405831 | Report this post

The Situation  
Years ago

Yes, the retaliator is hit with the foul. Thats because you cant break the rules just because someone niggled you. Not sure how many times that needs to be said.

Both Ervin and Walker were undisciplined last week, plain and simple. Redhage did not "kick" Goulding in any way, shape or form.

Reply #405832 | Report this post

Years ago

Don't realy understand what the fuss is? There not a bunch off soft cocks playin social on a thurs nyt! Which part u ppl dnt understand? U play to win and that is why we have refs! Cry to the nbl not on the fourum! Ppl are gona faint when they roll out the team for next season

Reply #405833 | Report this post

Years ago

Not sure if Bevo is srs...

Surely he can see how hypocritical he comes across?!?

Reply #405834 | Report this post

The Situation  
Years ago

Cats82, that is the point people are making. If Perth aren't a bunch of softcocks playing social ball (which they aren't) then Bevo can't really have a whinge about the league being physical, especially as playing physical is their bread and butter.

Reply #405836 | Report this post

Years ago

Would have a scrub like Brad Robbins lasted as many years as he did if he wasn't allowed to get away with blue murder?

This is rank hypocrisy from Bevo like if they got busted spending over the cap and in defence said "yeah but other teams are too they're making us break the salary cap". It's nonsense and if he was half serious he would've already changed the grappling/holding/niggle/flopping style the Wildcats play.

Reply #405837 | Report this post

Years ago

Kicked Goulding?? BJF you are a teller of lies!

Tag the instigator my ass, Wagstaff got tangled, Tiger's player screams obscenities three feet from a referee's face, but we should put a tech on Wagstaff?

Take off the hater-glasses, mate...

Reply #405838 | Report this post

Years ago

Matt Knight with the Lisch sulk too:

Can you imagine if guys like Kevin Lisch and other world class imports decided to leave our league because the risk of injury is too high, and they aren't allowed to play their natural game and showcase what they can do? It would be a disaster.

Despite my physicality being one of my strengths on the court, I do agree with what Bevo is saying, and I think it does apply more to the Kevin Lisch types in our league. The amount of bruises on his body after each game really is shocking, and I’m pretty sure a lot of those blows aren’t called as fouls.
But says it's OK in the post.
Obviously there is a time and place for physicality, I’m not denying that. But it should be left to play in the post, when us big guys are bodying up and going to work. That’s where it should be, and that way it won’t take away from the physicality of good quality Australian basketball.
Can someone check with Matt whether these new tough rules should apply based on:

- position played (only PF and C; what about tough SFs?)
- height ("us big guys" only!)
- location on the court (what if Lisch is cutting through the post?)

Bevo on Lisch previously:
Beveridge was livid that referees Brett Hogan, Vaughan Mayberry and David Bull failed to protect the in-form Lisch, who has been a target of rival teams in recent weeks.
Copped a $3k fine for that.

This is a few years back:
Whatever the outcome of his talks with Tilden, Beveridge will not instruct his team to change its physical approach to the game.

"You can play legal, physical basketball with your body, it's just a matter of getting your hands out," Beveridge said.

"The referees have come out and said they'll call any hand checks, so we've got to get better with that.

"We won't be changing what we're doing because that's what we're about, but we just have to become better at it."
"The question I'm asking is why have they cleaned up the perimeter game but they haven't cleaned up the post game," Beveridge said.
Fast forward and now the perimeter game is the problem and Knight thinks the post game should be allowed to be a bit fighty?

Reply #405839 | Report this post

Years ago

Great post Isaac,

Even the wildcats themselves prove that they want it both ways through those quotes.

I have nothing against Lisch,im a fan and he is not the one complaining, but please stop using him as an excuse, he seems to be able to handle it, and why would opposition clubs care if the Wildcats lose Lisch, some may say its even more reason to target him, using the Bevo 'the refs let us get away with it and its to our advantage so ill do it' approach

my question to Bevo and Knight is what about all the guys, guards or bigs on the opponents teams the Wildcats bang up and wrestled with, i can remember them almost basing a whole game plan around banging up Corey Williams, who like Lisch is a Guard! But thats ok is it?

Again , pot kettle black, if its a problem be the leaders in solving it, dont complain about it whilst being the biggest culprits. Maybe Lisch/wildcats players copping it a bit more now is karma starting to come round on them.

My other challenge is rise above it, as your opponents like the breakers do to you, they play cleaner and still win more!

Its put up or shut up time now Wildcats, clean it up yourselves or stop complaining that other teams are too rough.

If i was the NBL refs id call any Perth game ultra tight and call all the little fouls all game, Perth would get into plenty of foul trouble then complain about that, id then say you asked for it to be cleaned up didnt you?

Reply #405840 | Report this post

Years ago

@ anon go look at the footage, why do you think Goulding went off at him?

Reply #405841 | Report this post

The Situation  
Years ago

Because he is a sore loser. He did not kick him.

Reply #405842 | Report this post

Years ago

so when his foot hit Goulding, what would you call that?

Reply #405843 | Report this post

The Situation  
Years ago

It means their feet touched.

Reply #405844 | Report this post

Years ago

Also curious as to why all this fuss now as they are leading up to another Tigers game.

Are Flynn and Goulding too rough for Lisch and Marin? Relly?

Can Redhage, Wagstaff, Knight not handle Walker, Scott, Ballinger? Really?

Come on the Perth guys are much rougher in almost any match up.

Bevo/Wildcats if the refs tighten up it will surely mean your guys need to back off more than your opponents wouldnt it?

Reply #405845 | Report this post

The Situation  
Years ago

You're implying that the he did it intentionally. The footage shows nothing of the sort.

Reply #405846 | Report this post

Years ago

Bjf u bubbles brother? Bevo is loving it! Think he has thought through what he has said! Put it on the refs and see how the go. End of the day, thats perth basketball, if a club cant beat u they are gona find a reason, may be the other teams are that shit! Thats why when we play nz its even because both teams are the samd but perth alwayz gets picked out! How many times wilkinson start shit last season?

Reply #405848 | Report this post

Years ago

Watched the highlights from ATF on Melb-Perth. The Redhage/Goulding thing looked to be nothing. Redhage clipped Goulding with his foot as he stepped over, not even looking down. Didn't appear to be an issue. Threw his elbows in trying to secure a contested rebound, but when's that ever called.

That game has a good Wagstaff example though - already mentioned in this thread and the game thread. Wagstaff travels (his failing) and then acts as though he has his arm hooked by Walker and the other Tiger when you can see he doesn't. Ref tells him (it seems) to let go. Walker presumably swears in reaction to the shoddy Wagstaff behaviour and cops the tech. Goes from Tigers ball, to Perth advantage. You can see Wagstaff's gleeful reaction.

You can play the "he swore, his fault" game and/or you can know in your heart that someone acting like that, seeing what they can get away with in what's meant to be a ruled contest, is a tool.

Reminds me of those bullies you see getting in someone's face, trying to provoke them so they have an excuse to hit them.

Reply #405849 | Report this post

Years ago

I find it somewhat amusing that Bevo makes these comments about the league being "unattractive to watch" when his team plays a particular brand of basketball that is not very easy on the eye.

The game against Townsville last Friday night was a good example of that.

At least Bevo understands that the game is about the fans with comments like this:

"But I hope that the NBL can get back to entertaining fans with pure basketball as soon as possible."

Even if his true motiviation may be to get the NBL to look after his star player... Bevo does at least try to connect well with the fans, writing articles like this and also addressing the fans at the stadium sometimes after games.

Would be nice if some other coaches had the same philosophy as Bevo when it comes to NBL fans...

Reply #405850 | Report this post

Years ago

He didn't seem to mind when Kirk Penney got the same treatment.

Reply #405852 | Report this post

Years ago

I have never heard the breakers complain about the way perth play!! If u can suck some one in thats bad luck for the other person! Isnt that the same as a player floping? Or a play reacting to get a call. The cat was the same, in the come bak against nz he gave them shit and he went on and scored 17pts in the fourth. Perth dont go out and train for that, every sport it happens! So get over it! If perth win to night or the gf every 1 will say sumthin any way! So i just say LETS GO CATS!

Reply #405854 | Report this post

Years ago

Spot on Isaac,

Exaclty Mystro, there would be a long list of guards including MVP types ie Penney, Williams who Perth (including Brad Robbins) have dished out worse towards than what Lisch would be copping. I wish a journo asked Bevo about that.

Dont they realise is that the reason Lisch is copping what he is directly related to how they push around/wrestle their opponents and have done so for years, maybe teams are just starting to do a decent job of fighting back. I bet you if they cleaned up there act then everyone would. Then Bevos problem would be solved.

Again, Bevo you can solve it yourself, stop blaming everyone else (refs), take action and fix it.

Reply #405855 | Report this post

Years ago

Isaac, like many NBL refs, I think your post is missing the nuances of what contact is allowed in basketball. IE body contact in legal position is allowed. Arm contact out of the cylinder is not.

The big issue in the NBL, which all clubs do to various extents and have done for a number of years, is the grabbing pushing, checking out of position etc.

Anyone who takes issue with Beveridge saying something should be done in the off-season to clean it up sounds like a schoolkid - "he hit me harder" "he hit me first".

Reply #405856 | Report this post

Years ago

Sounds like you're getting in behind Dear Leader, paul. Has he got the Boomers job stitched up?

This is laughable from Bevo and he should be suitably embarrassed.

Reply #405858 | Report this post

Years ago

Paul, why shouldnt Bevo and the Wildcats if they are going to be out spoken about the issue, be the leaders in cleaning it up?

Why does it have to wait til the off season, no rule changes are required, Bevo could simply instruct his players to cut out the pushing, holding, etc which they are more guilty of than anyone else? Why has he not done this?

Wouldnt that solve the issue, which they are so concerned about?

If they are so concerned about player welfare, than why did they treat Williams, Penney, etc in the same way if not worse than Lisch is being treated? Why was that ok?

Its not 'he hit me first' stuff, its if you are so concerned about it why dont you do your best to lead the way in solving the problem, of which you are the biggest culprit? meaning if Bevo cleans up the wildcats, the leagues problem is basically solved. So why hasnt he done this?

If the Wildcats had tried to clean up there act and other teams kept being too physical, holding, bumping, wrestling with them and that was causing there players to get hurt or costing them wins, i could understand the complaint, but not when you are the biggest culprit of the crime you are complaining about.

The refs dont stop us from doing it, so we keep doing it and its therefore there fault, is not good enough imo and is a very lame excuse.

Its like driving and speeding all the time because you never get caught/fined then blaming the police for not catching you when you crash your car and injure yourself as a result. The way to fix it is to not speed, the same way for Bevo/Wildcats the way to fix there problem is to not push, grab, wrestle, bully, every opponent you come up against.

Reply #405859 | Report this post

Years ago

Jimmy, a journo did ask Bevo that, and he said we are as big a part of the problem as anyone else.

Im glad Beveridge has said publicly what a lot of other coaches say privately, and that is they dont like the way they have to get their teams to play. Let's hope there is some change in the off-season.

Reply #405861 | Report this post

Years ago

Well why doesnt he change it?

If the coaches/Bevo not like how they have to get there teams to play, Why does his team have to play like that?

Imo over history the teams which win titles are mostly the cleaner teams that dont use these types of tactics, sure it may get you a rare title, (both Bevo/Gorj have a low % of titles when you consider how stacked there teams are every year, often on paper they were well above the rest), and a fair share of wins, but you mostly will lose to a cleaner team that plays the game properly in the end.

Same as in super hero comics, the big tough bad guy who pushes/breaks all the rules will have a fair level of success, but will never/rarely acheive the ultimate prize as the good guys usually win. Ie a basketball team that plays in the right spirit that is of a similar level of talent will beat the rough/tough, bend the rules team in the end.

Eg Smyth v Gorj when both have decent teams (ie pre Smyths last couple of years), even 36ers v Bevo even with Clarke as coach win without the bully tactics more often than not and would win more if they had a better coach.

Maybe both Goorj and Bevos teams could have actually won more titles if they had played cleaner, imo they would have.

Reply #405865 | Report this post

The Situation  
Years ago

You've been making good points up until mentioning comic books.

Reply #405867 | Report this post

Years ago

lol, you may not like the reference but the point made is a valid one imo.

Being the cleaner team playing in the right spirit will with the same talent level will usually rise above the team using tactics that bend the rules in the end. Eg All the Grandfinals the Titans/Magic lost, current Perth team. Still very successful but maybe they would have an extra title or 2, could argue the opponents they lost to are less talented imo.

Reply #405870 | Report this post

Years ago

Jimmy, recent champs - NZ, Perth, Dragons, Brisbane, Sydney, they all played the same way. Melbourne were somewhat of an exception because of their length but they were still physical.

The bottom line is the way it has been called since the mid-2000s it is near impossible to win unless you play that way. Every coach in the league realises that now.

The common theme from coaches is along the lines of "it's meant to be a game of skill but you have to play physical or you get left behind". Beveridge is no different.

Reply #405871 | Report this post

Years ago

Agree to a point, dont think many pushed it as far as Perth currently do though, no one currently pushes it as far as Perth imo, especially in non perth match up games.

Imo it would have been interesting if say McKee could have played for the Hawks in 2010 finals, imo they may have beaten Perth without playing those tactics. Im sure there are other similar examples. The other things all those teams have in common they probably had the most expensive/talented rosters, that has more to do with it than the success of the physical game plan imo.

There are arguments for some of those rosters being among the most talented assembled of all time, its not like they were weaker teams that over acheived as a result of these tactics. So not as convinced it is required to the level of Perth do it now.

Yes you have to be physical and be able to handle it, but you can do both without being dirty, i dont consider Petrie, Vukona as dirty most of the time, but do consider Redhage a more dirty player, but would say Petrie and Vukona are just as physical, just do it the right way. Same as say Gibson v Brad Robbins, Gibson is physical, but much cleaner in how he does it.

So yes Bevo has a point, the refs do need to tighten up, but still a bit rich to complain about something you are the biggest culprit of imo. Wouldnt have complained at all if basically any other coach said it, as its not as much of a pot kettle black coment as it is when coming from Bevo, thats what i didnt like, also the fact his opinions change over time as it suits his team, ie how his teams treated Williams in prior years then complains about Lisch who is not treated as bad by anyone.

Ok yes others are guilty of it and it needs to be addressed, but take responsibility and do your part in fixing it.

Bevo has coached NBL since the mid 2000s so has had plenty of time to get it right/compaign the league to change things without being the biggest culprit. That is my issue. He has done nothing for ages, now just complains cos it no longer is to his advantage, whilst been fine to beat down other players to his advantage. Yes i get its his job to win, but dont be poor my player after beating down opposition guys for years.

Reply #405875 | Report this post

Years ago

I think youll find a lot of coaches have campaigned behind the scenes on this. For mine there is no doubt the worst team for this was Brisbane 2007, which really set the whole wheels in motion.

Reply #405877 | Report this post

Years ago

Paul you never saw a Goorjian team of the late 90's then?

Reply #405879 | Report this post

Years ago

Yes, what we are talking about is the Goorgianisation of Australian basketball, or the flow-on from it.

Problem is, it's taking a long time for the league to work out how to reduce the physicality so we get to see some skills. And that includes defensive skills as well as offensive. There is more to defence than grabbing or clobbering someone, but why bother coaching or using defensive skills when you can just wrap your arms around the attacking player or openly thump him or her without any real risk of a foul?

The double-handed push in the back in rebound situations appears to be gaining popularity too.

Reply #405882 | Report this post

Years ago

That was a classic Camel. T'd up early so Scotty had to go sit down for three quarters. After the game Al Westover realised he forget to tell Scotty about that part of the agreement.

Reply #405888 | Report this post

Years ago

Yea well put POP.

I personally think it would be a better spectacle and get more fans if they basically adopted the NBA rules and refereeing style.

None of this wrestling is tolerated and back chatting is quickly teched as well, some cases too quickly, but still think overall the idea is correct.

Even in international ball doesnt have the wrestling the NBL does, so if the NBL is going to use those rules, then use them properly.

Bevo is correct, but the thing that annoys me that he and some others abuse the rules to the max, have done so for years, and now have the nerve to complain about it, with the poor Lisch stuff, you cant have it both ways.

IMO even though some have won titles, as a whole teams that employ these tactics often under acheive, and the fact they are often the most talented team by miles and still need to beat the crap out of there opponent to win shows it to me. If teams play straight up basketball the team with the more talented aslong as they work hard and are well coached will win more than they lose, but the teams that employ these 'wrestling' tactics will basically lose to anyone who can stand up to them, even if they are less talent. Eg Clark 36ers beating the Wildcats several times even at Perth, if they played straight up, Perth with the superior talent should/would have beaten the 36ers more than they have.

IMO even though the Wildcats won the title in 2010, and have been far better than the 36ers, they have almost under acheived, ok in 2010 they won the title, but they were by far the most talented on paper, and if the Hawks werent without there MVP level import in McKee, they may not have even got that. To me McLeod reaching the GF series with that circumstance and playing a more pure brand of basketball without McKee is almost the better acheivement, considering how stacked on the roster Perth were/are and the Hawks financial position and the amount they would have spent on there roster in comparison.

To me the Hawks, Crocs, Taipans in making good playoff runs and beating Perth or Perth needing to literally beat the crap out of them to beat them despite having a far better roster is more of an acheivement. Its also the reason why NZ, with a roster of similar level to Perth have beaten Perth in both GF meetings, they can stand upto them, guys like Vukona protect his team mates enough, then the more pure basketball style wins in the end.

Goorj is the same, made every grandfinal from atleast 96-2000 and only walked away with 1 title, even though most of the time he would have had the more talented/expensive team. To me thats an under acheivment. Adelaide in 98/99 had a good roster, but the Magic/Titans were probably more talented/deeper on paper and they were flogged by the 36ers.

2002 is a classic example, Titans again with a stacked team, fails to make the Grand final and is beaten by far less 'on paper' talented teams like the 36ers and Razorbacks who made the GF series.

To me its a far bigger achievement to not push the limits and win, then it is to push the rules and win, anyone can beat the crap out of a less talented team and win, its actually sad when you dont if thats how you go about it.

That is why i respect coaches like McLeod and Smyth over Goorj and Bevo. McLeod also doesnt whinge about players wrestling, even though his team isnt guilty of it and cops it more than Perth who are the biggest culprits. Its a huge pity the Hawks had sooo many injuries, i would have backed them in a playoff series over the Wildcats, despite having a cheaper/less talented roster, unless the Wildcats managed to beat them down enough, not sure they would have this year, which is said when the only way a more talented team can win is by bending the rules and beating the crap out of them.

Maybe its for a seperate topic, but what do most fans respect more/prefer the McLeod/Smyth style or the Bevo/Gorj style?

Reply #405889 | Report this post

Camel 31  
Years ago

Early in the game on Sunday , Perth's number 4 jumps over the back of a MEL player for a rebound and comes down with his arms over the Melbourne players shoulder and around his arms and some ball . Called a jump ball . That's a free in footy , but set the tone for this game .
Lisch can deal with the situation .

Reply #405892 | Report this post

Years ago

The smug reaction from wag staff on the walker t highlights the worst of it for me, grapple and hook your opponent then try an bribe the refs into calling it your way. Maybe it's just gamesmanship but they have brought in the warning and tech foul for players that flop to try and stamp out players flopping and trying to bribe the refs. How is the antagonising physical play any different, the number of times you see the instigator throw him self around after making the contact and getting the call their way is crazy.

Maybe it's a result of the more physical defence being allowed, but I also hate seeing the ball carrier throw their arms in the air on the slightest contact trying to get a call. Most likely a result of being manhandled regularly and having to overemphasise contact to get a call. Cj Bruton is a classic case.

Reply #405929 | Report this post

Years ago

Kr - don't forget Johhny Flynn.

I wouldn't expect such cr.p from an NBA player, unless he has such a low opinion of our refs that he thinks it's worth doing.

Reply #405933 | Report this post

Years ago

Most people here are quick to jump on the wildcats/bevo 'hypocrisy' theme. If you listen to the whole interview he admits to his team being part of the problem in the league. You cant blame him that the officiating allows the physicality to go to another level. The players and coaches are just doing what it takes to win this league and at this point in time there is nothing illegal about it. Its the league and the officials who are responsible to ensure the game should be played as fair and attractive for fans as possible.
Bevo should be commended for coming out publicly to instigate some kind of reform. In the offseason is the right time to make these decisions with the people who have the power to make change. You cant expect a coach to jeopardise their championship prospects by changing the style of play in the middle of the season.

Reply #405946 | Report this post

The Situation  
Years ago

Kr...bribing the ref? What are you on about? Are you seriously suggesting that Wagstaff hooked arms with Walker and it was his fault that Walker yelled "f*** off" the moment after the refs told them to separate?

I can see why Wagstaff was laughing. Walker is extremely dumb.

Reply #405952 | Report this post

Years ago

Bevo should be commended for coming out publicly to instigate some kind of reform.
Other coaches are making their complaints through the proper channels.

Bevo is just begging for refs to give Lisch free reign.

Reply #405958 | Report this post

Years ago

I have been a strident and continuous critic of the "Gorgian defence" since its inception. The main problem as I see it is that one team seems to be allowed to employ it while if the team on the receiving end changes its style it is immediately penalised.

As for the choir boy, Mr Lisch, he seems to be allowed to hook and push off with impunity. So a little body contact should not be that big of a problem.

Reply #405959 | Report this post

Years ago

Lisch along with a few other "superstars" already get free reign from the whistle wearouterers.

Happens in the AFL too & probably other sports.

The best players get away with the most & their direct opponents get away with the least.


P.S. Love your work Isaac - too many ppl on here just talking shit about stuff they know nothing about - ie players & coaches wages.

Reply #406004 | Report this post

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