Steady on lads - TW is making observations.

Sherbrooke - don't really exist at the VJCL level in Juniors - so to then be fielding competitive Big V teams seems a big ask - the question here seems to be around sustainability of the Club at the Champ level.

Melbourne/Eltham - as other have pointed out, both very strong in recent years but have fallen back. If the rumour mill is true, both have suffered big time from internal problems this season. You don't get the people side right, it all falls apart pretty quickly.

As a counter view - Bulleen from nowhere to ouright title favourites in no time at all - just by having things fall into place and a few key people committed to making it happen.

So perhaps this is just the nature of the beast - Clubs will go up and down rapidly if they don't quite get it right - as someone else already said, perhaps it is what it is ?

#420422

Stupid comment. Just because someone critiques something does not make them negative.

The sustainability of the BigV Championship is a huge question, and its poor condition should be of relevance to Basketball Victoria, considering it is their state championship now.

One of the problems is that these clubs have little cash to throw at a problem. Often a SEABL club can find an extra 5-10k to fix a glaring hole in their team - many of these programs just cannot do that.

The Championship has been structurally week since BV allowed Sandringham and Dandenong to walk out a few years ago with no repercussions. But, the BigV making decisions like allowing Sherbrooke women in (despite no juniors), McKinnon women in (just because a bunch of players all turned up to play) shows the administration is happy to choose a path of convenience, rather than long term planning and hard work.

To compare the state of the competition could we have the end of season ladder for the last 5 years posted side by side to determine if there is in fact a trend here in perenial losers as suggested?

If over a 5 year period we have the same 3 clubs at the bottom with a huge gap between them and the top 3 clubs, then TW may have a point, but looking at it on face value at the moment does not tell us much...

Guys i wasn't having a crack at those clubs in particular and wasn't trying to put Big V down.

Just thought we could have a frank discussion about the same 3 teams being at the bottum of both ladders.

Off court personnel changes have really hurt both Melb & Eltham with hard working people leaving in the offseason and a number of players leaving as a result has effected them, but Eltham probably more so on the mens side as they aren't even competitive in youth league which is a huge worry for there future.

Sherbrooke womens & even men is a probably something the league need to look at as they have no juniors to draw from and both side are struggling....the women haven't been competitive since they entered the league.

I'm not having a crack at the clubs with my observations as i'm surely they are working towards improving but probably more at the league.

As mentioned above Mackinnion enter a team cause they had players turn up from Waverley.

Sherbrooke women entered with no real support or personnel and no youth coming thru to support them.

Tiger Watcher - good observation - it really does show that off court issues really have an impact on on court success.

As a contributor to a Big V team this season, it is hard at the moment for all teams to just put teams together. Sponsorship is low, player payments are a real struggle for most teams. Even ours.

It almost seems that you need a bit of luck with players just to get a team on court.

Until there is a consolidation of competition, more secure funding, real marketing and sponsorship solutions, Big V will continue to struggle.

Is the real issue here not the Big V, or the competition then?

Is not the real issue around club development, support from Basketball Victoria, their club/association development area and the other departments linked to the sport be they government run or supported by business?

I agree with the observations as well, if they are analysed properly and we can drill down to the root cuases, not just reflect on results, but results do provide the initial trigger to suggest that things are not going so well...

Is it the role of the Big V to support clubs/associations that are having these issues (off court), or does this fall to other organisations, areas and basketball support networks?

In cooperation, yes, Big V should do everything they can to improve the areas as stated above, but they can't do it alone I would suggest, it needs to be a holistic approach.

#420468

I presume you are the same anon (get a name).
It is because it reflects poor decision making by the league in many cases.

While the plight of the teams is one thing, the decision making by the league is another.

I could go even further and say that few teams are getting it done in championship with organically developed talent. I've commented on CB before, but look at the rosters of lots of teams and you will see a lack of home developed talent.

Perhaps that is ok in SEABL, but in BigV, where crowds are much lower and generally programs don't generate much revenue, the temptation to recruit is to much for their means.

Look at what Eltham did a couple of years back and where they are now - that is a sorry state - because two years ago Eltham sent a very strong message to their juniors, which is "work hard and you can play somewhere else, because we are going to buy a group of players to win us a championship anyway".

Basketball Bible - Chapter 101

'Thou shalt not place winning before development'

@Bear - Senior Basketball 101 - Thou will develop and everyone else will pay overs and take them from us once they are good enough! As they are sick of losing in a "Developing" team

@HO - I think from memory that first year when Eltham starting paying a few guys, they had more Eltham guys on that roster than the previous few seasons.

That may be the case TW, but if we go back to the glory years of BigV, then Eltham and DV teams, who used to go to war, were almost entirely dominated by their own stock.

The 2011 team was dominated by Greer, Tragardh, Lister, Norton and Sturt - certainly Lister has been long term Eltham.

I know it is only D2 but Pakenham will be in the same position in the future. Spending up to get SCM players in to win the championship this year. They will not be there for ever. A number of reasonable juniors (18's and 20's) have already been burnt.

In the future this will bite them on the bum.

#420484

Interesting observation. When you say referees are doubling up, do you mean they are doing two games of a double header? if so, then that i disconcerting.

Just did some research to use Eltham as an example on this whole junior pathway thing as mentioned above:

2009 team had: Datson, Scoullar, Bryar
2010 team had: Bryar, Lister & Piper
2011 team had: Datson, Scoullar, Bryar & Lister


Not sure on your point re Eltham juniors and the direction they took as they have never had a pathway before they recruited well and started paying so instead of hacks from other clubs they picked up better players, but juniors never really got a look in for a long time.

It is always a balancing act for the champ team re local talent and getting players in (Imports or NBL) as you need both to compete and without the imports/NBL it is hard to compete as you need to be paying good $$ to stay competitive...hence the lower teams loose there best players to clubs that are paying.

#420499

that rule, or something like it, has really significant merit. The one about YL not the other one.

TW, my understanding of the Eltham teams in the early days of BigV Conference/Championship is that they were largely Eltham developed - I am talking 2004/5/6 though.

Am I missing the point here?

Big V consists of Champs, D1 & D2 then Youth League Champs, D1 for men and women & D2 (men only).

I recall threads on this structure and how most people were quite keen on it, saying it was a big improvement and would make a lot of sense...

What has gone wrong?

Yes, some teams win and others lose, yes, some teams have a higher level and more quality players than other teams and yes, some associations make mistakes in their programs as has been discussed!

That's sport, where is Big V going worong?? The administration, the system, the rules of admission??

Let's be clear on what needs to be looked at and what can actually be fixed, if it needs fixing, otherwise evolution and re-evaluation at the end of a season to examine how improvements can be made would be the normal process undertaken, I would imagine...

@ Ho - Yea back in the mid 2000's that was true about the Eltham program but it changed in about 07/08 from memory.

That said when clubs moved back to SEABL a number of clubs lost players and a fair bit of a player shuffle began as the Big V lost its way.

Now it appears that Big V champ guys are getting pretty nice pay cheques and happy to change clubs every year to do so which probably says alot when it isn't about quality of team or division but rather the pay cheque.

Tiger Watcher - I think you might be a bit off the mark with Big V players getting good coin to play and switch teams. A few might be lucky enough to, but I know of a number of top Big V players who are not being paid a cent. Including some imports.

I know that imports in their first year do not have to be paid anything to play in the Big V but are able to work here while they play.

Until BV or Big V especially are able to find a way to generate enough income the competition and players will continue to move.

I do know that over the past few seasons the Eltham and other clubs players have left due to management issues and the fact that some of them didn't get paid what they were owed.

Bear. Have you not read the whole thread? There have been numerous comments (theories) here about what might have gone wrong.

It might be useful if based on those comments you offered some evaluation rather than pointing out the bleeding obvious!

kdb - That's not entirely true, it depends on the type of visa that an import is out here on. If a player is here on a Sports Visa, they MUST be paid to play. If they are here on a working holiday visa, or some other kind of visa with work rights, they don't have to be paid to play as they are not sponsored by the club. It has nothing to do with first year, second year, or what league they play in.

A number of the Big V clubs imports are out here on "working Holidays" and they just happen to play basketball.

It is a little loop hole that the clubs exploit very well.

Anon - it's not illegal at all. WNBL clubs have also used imports on working holiday visas before. It's just a different application to BA to allow a foreign player to play under a different visa other that a Sports visa. They are still required to have a FIBA playing licence. A number of players who are still considered imports (i.e. not Australian CITIZENS) may also be here on permanent or temporary residency visas which again have different conditions in terms of what a club is required to pay them if at all.

It is smart if a club has a limited budget and "happens" to have an import whom is on a working holiday visa....as you can get a good player at no cost to the club (Other than a job at a third party).

@BethDavis - From my understanding Big V does not allow imports to play under a "working visa" in their second year. They must be paid from 2nd year onwards. This is exactly what is happening in my club.

I can guarantee you that imports do not have to be paid their first year. They are able to work outside of the club anywhere else.

This is how Div and 2 teams and plenty in SCM are able to have imports as they have agreements with local sponsors to provide employment for their import players. And many do not stay around past their first year.

@KDB - if we talk import from US they are only able to get a working holiday visa for 12 months then if they wish to stay long must re-apply and are normally require to work in a "rural skills shortage area" i.e fruit picking etc for a set period of time.

@TigerWatcher - Thats exactly what i am saying, year 2 they have sports sponsored visas because they have to be paid by their clubs. Even under a sports visa they are able to supplement their income with other employment.

Beth Davis is right on the money.

Again - it depends entirely on the type of visa they are on, nothing to do with Big V rules and everything to do with immigration rules.

Under a sports visa (now known as a Temporary Work - Long Stay Activity Sports Stream visa), a player cannot legally receive income from any other source other than the organisation who is listed as their sponsor on the application (i.e. the club). If they are supplementing their income with other employment, you'll probably find it's cash in hand and not on any books and probably shouldn't be mentioned ;)

Useful to who HO, you...?

I have read enough of your comments to know that you also have a theory on just about everything, but thanks for the inspiration regardless, much appreciated mate...

Are the SEABL guys on "working holiday" VISA's? or is it really only the smaller clubs that utilise it?

I assume that SEABL guys are of a higher quality hence they would be on sporting visa's

I don't know of any SEABL Men's players who are on working holiday visas. Doesn't mean there aren't any. There have definitely been women's SEABL players who have been. You'll find that a lot of players actually come out here on a working holiday visa themselves, and work out and train with teams in pre-season hoping to get a gig with someone. Being on a working holiday visa gives them more opportunity to do so because the smaller clubs who can't afford to fly guys out or pay the minimum import wage can pick them up. All most players want is an opportunity to prove themselves. PLus, they hear through the grapevine what a great place Australia is to live! :)

Good topic.What is the minimum wage for a sports visa at the moment?

From the Immigration website:

"The salary or wages payable to you must be in accordance with Australian labour laws and practices.

If there is no award, and it is not a volunteer position, you must receive at least the minimum federal award rate."

From the Fair Work website:
"Currently the full-time minimum wage is $15.96 per hour or $606.40 per week. This means that most employees in the national system shouldn't get less than this."

In all liklihood there are some (many) who are not being paid at the award rate. But I think immigration are generally too busy with other things than to check up on whether a team playing in Division 2 in Big V is paying their American the right amount of money! (Example only)

I think the FIBA Oceania licence is $450 and if you want it rushed through on a weekend you can double it.

That is just dumb Bear. You would hope everyone here is posting because they have a theory, or opinion. The smart ones have discretion and don't post on things they have no knowledge of. There are tonnes of threads I never contribute to. I know nothing about import players so have not bought into the side-topic within this thread.

But, tell me what this is?

"Let's be clear on what needs to be looked at and what can actually be fixed, if it needs fixing, otherwise evolution and re-evaluation at the end of a season to examine how improvements can be made would be the normal process undertaken, I would imagine..."

huh? And then you add nothing to it. At least you could summarise what "needs looking at" or "what can be fixed". Vacuous....

Another thing I have noticed Ho, is your habit of pasting people's quotes and throwing it back in their faces mate...

Ease up brother, threads are not life and death mate, at least I have not called you dumb!

Name calling and big noting yourself like you are a professor or something wears thin too. Just enjoy the banter and the conversation, don't get so hung up on the technical stuff all the time brother.

Sometimes I will have the time or desire to say more than at other times.

Sometimes I don't feel like it.

This is an online messaging system, not the Spanish Inquisition!

Anyway, in answer to your query, all I was stating there was that the Big V will no doubt do a thorough evaluation to determine what can be improved in Championship and all other divisions.

Or at least I hope they do. Wouldn't it be nice to have the time to read and analyse their minutes, statistics and reports??

Yes, we can all be smarter and take more time to analyse this and evaluate that, but sometimes we just wish to make a comment or start more conversation...

Nothing wrong with that mate, cheers....

One thing Big V has done wrong for champ division this season is there are no double headers. Every team only plays once a weeks. It allows teams who only play 6 or 7 players the luxury of not having to back it up the next day.

So Bear, to be technical, and I'll quote you - (because it helps to quote for context, just as it helps to refer to other posters for contenxt by using their name when you address them)

"at least I have not called you dumb"

And neither did I to you. I said what you said was dumb. There is a difference and it is significant.

Sorry Bear, but if you are following this thread (and others) then you will know that there have been many comments made about the league, its management and decision making. If you have confidence in them reviewing and improving that, given the decision making over the last 3-4 seasons, then that is naive. (please note I am saying you are naive about this, not saying you are generally naive).

BTW. I mostly quote Sitevini back to himself. Why? Because he contradicts himself a lot and its fun to show it.

Nice one HO, thanks for proving my point mate, cheers...

'The dumb reference was on purpose mate, just seeing if you were on the ball, the response was predictable'

I agree it would be naive to believe that Big V would conduct a clear and concise evaluation, but I guess the problem is that my expectations are high...

Rubbish Bear, you are not that sophisticated to troll.

And to prove that point, you have previously made exactly the same mistake (remember, the difference between saying something was simplistic and being called simplistic?):

http://www.hoops.com.au/forum/30456-will-an-nbl-team-fold-in-2013/#p397658

that makes you a recidivist, not a troll. Nice try.

That's funny mate, never mind, don't get so frustrated, I am just taking the piss...

Happy to say I'm not perfect but I did catch you on that one!

'Simple is as simple does'...

Bear, question for you.

When you go to the bar, and order a beer for yourself, and proceed to miss your mouth and pour it down the front of your shirt, do you sit back on your stool and go "ah, that was good"?

And then, do you order another, and do exactly the same thing, and then proceed to say "ah, there going down nicely today, that was better than the first"?

#420969

acknowledged, but needed to be said. The guy posts something dumb, and to cover his tracks then says he was trolling the whole time, and then we he gets called out because he's done exactly the same thing before, says he "caught you out...".

Ease up brother, you are just continuing to prove my point here, please stop embarrassing yourself mate...

Goodness me, so serious and so touchy, what are you affraid of?

Jacky Moon said once, 'Everybody, just love everybody'!

Just a quick tip, reduce the amount of times you try to correct others and I'm sure that your blood pressure will be much better... :)