anon
Years ago

Winning or Development

Having just returned from the Classic in Melbourne, I was amazed at the amount of Zone played, particularly by Victorian based teams.

The 16 Boys final, the winning team played zone all game. I am told they played zone all tournament.

I'm also advised that the coach plays zone in VJBL games because "the boys are hopeless at man defense".

Don't get me wrong, I am not against zone defense, but I believe kids need to developed in all aspects of defense.

My question for debate is - Is winning a more important factor to that of the development of young players.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Pretty poor attitude by the DV coach.

Pressure to win by parents and committees, and p*ss weak coaching directors, with no idea, makes coaches unknowingly put short term success ahead of player development.

Reply #422945 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

They can always play at Syracuse

Reply #422947 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

No. The kids in Boheim's program can still play defence. Never learning how to play D because - "you're no good at it", will not get you into ANY program beyond juniors.

Reply #422950 | Report this post


Mick  
Years ago

I don't know, sometimes I think zone should be banned at a junior level in this country. Or at least it should be banned at the rep level.

It's a big reason why we don't produce many guys who are great ballhandlers or on-ball defenders (ie.

Reply #422951 | Report this post


Happy Days  
Years ago

Development creates winning.My teams only play man to man and they have for 2.5 years.Never once played zone.Zone has its place without doubt but my job is to teach my kids.Each to there own...

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Isn't the Diamond Valley coach also the Vic Metro state coach?

Reply #422958 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Ballhandling has to do with

a- the player him/herself practicing it dedicatedly
b- Players allowed/encourage to use dribling in systems

(a) does not happen as young players are not aware, once they know its too late
(b) does not happen because the netball like basketball this country has adopted turned dribling to a dirty word.

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Mystro  
Years ago

Playing as a youngster I remember that we had to play man and no zone.

We only play Zone these days, mostly because we're old and lazy

Reply #422960 | Report this post


Anon12  
Years ago

Basketball in the ACT used to ban zone defence (not sure if the still do)and players were forced to play man. Teams could be first warned and then tech fouled if they played zone. The only problem with this was that when ACT teams went away to tournaments etc they had trouble playing against a zone. Not sure what the answer is but players should definitely be taught the skill/s of playing man-to-man!

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Anonymous  
Years ago

959, "(b) does not happen because the netball like basketball this country has adopted turned dribling to a dirty word." this does not apply in SA. It's you Victorians that develop robots by using zones and boaring, robotic offenses like shuffle (1sts and 3rds).

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Yep could have won most games by running zone defense at classics. Just have bigs plug the paint as juniors are not deadly from three point line, but this teaches them nothing. Didn't do it fir a second thebwhole tournament.

Reply #422967 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I do not understand the generalization relating to Victorian teams and playing zone and running the ball through passes. I for one played four interstate rep teams over the long weekend which played out of S.A which just played Zone defence and nothing else.

I do agree that zones do hamper the development of players if that's the only defense they play. Though in saying that the best way to make a team stop playing the zone is to bet the zone. I hate zone defense as much as the next coach but you teach them how to bet it.If its with structured 'o' sets or pushing the ball down the floor.

First point is; Quickest way up the court is running the ball through passes.
2nd point; To unsettle a zone is to get the ball up the court quicker then the defensive team can set up. 3rd point structured 'o' can always beat a zone.

Lets be honest here every coach is different and it all depends what you want for your child. If you want them to develop an overall good game or a keep it simple stupid game, its all dependent on the clubs, culture and coaches.

Reply #422969 | Report this post


Coeezy  
Years ago

Zone always will be detrimental to the game.
You learn more against man and it promotes more skill, as opposed to height. The teams that generally play zone, tend to be taller, more laterally challenged players who can't stick it with the more athletic and skillful players.

Get rid of it for good across all ages I say, but that'll never happen.

Reply #422970 | Report this post


Jack Toft  
Years ago

Isn't there one SA club that is notorious for zoning?

Reply #422972 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Who is it Jack?

Reply #422986 | Report this post


Tyrell  
Years ago

Zone is easy to beat- pass and displace- opposition coaches should have been able to dismantle it easily!

Reply #422988 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Which club jack toft?

Reply #422989 | Report this post


Latrentis  
Years ago

Maybe zone should only be allowed for 1 half? I believe some domestic comps have adopted that rule.

Reply #422995 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Well said jack toft

Reply #422997 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

#422945....

Pretty ballsy calling DV DOC piss weak because one of their coaches plays a zone press. I think he deserves better than that.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

997, I think Toft is referring to the club featured in the advertisement in the top right of this site.

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Bear  
Years ago

Never feared the zone when my opposition coach deployed one against a team I coach, no matter the age, I actually welcome it because it excites me to get my players thinking how they can beat a zone and scoreboard against it.

Always try to turn a negative into a positive when you are coaching kids, they feed off it, don't complain about zone D if it is not banned...

My philosophy has always been to play straight up man-man or ball-man D!

D is for development...

Reply #423004 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Teams will often go zone against Melbourne to get them out of that shuffle they so much love.

Just another point - isn't there a saying:
A good man to man defense looks like a zone and a good zone looks like a man.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Cheers other anon so jack toft was referring to west Adelaide well I agree with that jack toft

Reply #423008 | Report this post


Proud  
Years ago

As long as they are playing basketball consistently and are being taught all the time then I don't care what happens (I think bigs should do all the passing, dribbling, outside shooting and stealing practice like the guards and the guards should learn to crash boards, set screens, block out on rebounds etc...). I hope that these kids are eager to learn and the coach has the capability to keep teaching them.

Reply #423017 | Report this post


Jack Toft  
Years ago

Actually, I wasn't thinking of them in particular.

Reply #423021 | Report this post


Jack Toft  
Years ago

Actually, I wasn't thinking of them in particular.

Reply #423022 | Report this post


Delmos 60  
Years ago

I thought everyone in SA basketball thought zoning was the answer to all the problems with basketball in South Australia?

Reply #423024 | Report this post


Confused  
Years ago

So let me get this right.

The DV Coach is also the Vic Metro coach? He plays zone because his team cannot play man?

He is considered to be an elite coach?

He wins the Classic?

I am so confused!! How can a coach in this guys position be allowed by the hierarchy in Basketball Victoria to operate this way.

At my club, coaches are told to leave their egos at the door. Player development is KEY - the DV boys and parents may well be happy to win a gold medal at the classic. But do they understand their kids are being short changed by a coach who's only interested in his own win/loss record.

Wake up BV and get this coach and others like him to focus on bringing our basketball youth talent on so they can hopefully realise their true potential.

Coaches with huge egos who place winning over development at junior basketball level have no place in our game.

Reply #423025 | Report this post


PlaymakerMo  
Years ago

^^well played!

Can't argue with most that has been posted thus far.

Development, and therefore man defence is virtually always the way to go, but zones do have their place in junior basketball. Personally, I like an aggressive zone as a change-up from press/man defence, similar to how it's used in the NBL. It's important for juniors to learn about zones so long as it doesn't come at the expense of defensive fundamentals.

I like SA's rules regarding zones, even if it hurts our chances at Classics etc. But the enforcement of the zoning rules could be improved.

I certainly couldn't generalize this across an entire club, but some U14 Sturt and West Adelaide coaches run stealthy zones, and a senior U16 coach at North runs a zone almost exclusively. Poor form.

@Jack - did I pick a winner?

Reply #423027 | Report this post


Jack Toft  
Years ago

I think you may have.

There's a sneaky zone with one guard "hunting" outside the arc, the other 4 in a zone. Cut a player and they don't move/follow. Dumb refs think its man, very clever.

Reply #423028 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Was it a good or bad zone?

If they won the classic I am guessing it was a good zone?

Have you ever seen a good zone deployed without the fundamental mam on man principles being good?

Seems like some people here are confused. At this level of basketball if you play a zone it better be good, because well coached teams will rip apart a bad zone. For him to win the classic playing a zone I am making an assumption that the following defensive traits were exhibited....

Good close outs
Being able to keep between the ball and the basket when defending the ball
Good ball pressure
Players bumping cutter
Players moving on the flight
Good communication
Being able to find the player in your area and boxing out

Pretty sure the above traits are man to man as well

Do I like zone being played all the time no I don't but at this level you need to be able to beat a zone.

Give the guy some credit, it might not have been pretty however if he is teaching the man to man principles to develope the kids and then running the zone using these principles to win all power to him and the opposition coaches should have done their homework on how to beat it if he is known for this!

Reply #423030 | Report this post


hoopie  
Years ago

Every team needs to have options. They should have at least one good zone AND a good man-to-man, and generally a press as well.

To me, that's development as well as common-sense - if the team has limited options then they become predictable, which makes them easier to beat.

Reply #423033 | Report this post


eli1  
Years ago

development is far more important. winning games in the bonus

Reply #423039 | Report this post


Titans15  
Years ago

Hi,

My name is Ross Clark, coach of the successful and gold medal winning team at the Classic.

To give you some background to the key board warriors who use this website, I am the only Life member coach of Diamond Valley association and I ahve coached there for over years.

For those questioning my credentials at developing players, I have coached Australian reps players such as Kevin Probert, Matt Jackson, Greg PagE.

I have coached numerous Vic Metro and Vic Country players over that time including Kristian Williams, Tim Bongetti, Nick Dean, Cameron Conlon, Ben Mossuto, Drew McKenzie, Matt Johnston, Daniel Suter just to name a few.

To those questioning my win/loss record, I can assure you I have coached numerous teams during my time at DV with a negative win/loss ratio.

Yes, i am the Vic metro head coach, have been for the last years going into my third year and happy to say that I have won Nationals twice, playing man to man at all times.

I won VC last year in Under 18's defeating Melb Tigers again playing man to man.

So I am more than happy to stand by my record both in developing players and also winning and losing.

To say that my team is hopeless in playing man to man is a slight on the capability of my current under team. Yes we are workig hard at in practice to develop these players as we work hard on all of our fundamentals.

So do we play zone with this group, yes we do. Do we press up the floor, yes we do, do we trap, yes we do. At no stage have I hidden the fact that we play zone, however I would like to think we do all of these things well.

Good close outs
Being able to keep between the ball and the basket when defending the ball
Good ball pressure
Players bumping cutter
Players moving on the flight
Good communication
Being able to find the player in your area and boxing out

So again, to anyone who wishes to discuss this with, feel free to do so, I happy to do so. in the mean time though, give these players the respect they deserve, they won games at the classic, beating Melb twice, coming from 16 down at 3 quarter time in quarter final.

Reply #423049 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Anon post#423030 with the most intelligent comment in this thread.

A good zone encourages team work, communication and accountability which are so often lost in a man defense. Like anon said, the principles are the same. A good man defense involves being in a position to help and recover, switch, play split line etc.. All the same traits as a good zone.

Strategies to beat a zone:
Quick ball movement.
All players to penetrate at every opportunity, not just the team's "superstar" player.
Pass and MOVE/RELOCATE, never stand still.
Be ready to catch and shoot.
Use the post to draw help then kick out or look for slashers.
BE PATIENT. You need to wait for an opportunity, then attack with aggression.

Do you all think teaching these skills is bad for player development??? Any coach that says zones should be banned should be banned from coaching themselves. They are a challenge, and should be embraced by coaches as a way to FURTHER develop skills and win at the same time.

Reply #423050 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Don't get sucked in by them Ross - the only ones bagging you on here are the ignorant and the sore losers. Those of us here in SA that have come into contact with you over a number of years know what sort of a person/coach you are like, and don't worry, you are well respected (and liked - or as much as a Vic Met coach can be liked!) by those of us who have coached against you over the years!

Reply #423051 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

Nothing wrong with what you're doing Ross, some people have posted rants, better to be ignored.

The post asks the question if development is more important than winning, also it refers to the Classic, Vic teams and secondary comments about the winning 16's team playing zone (allegedly) all tournament.

Some good points have been made about what looks like a zone and how a good man defense actually may appear to be zone like to some.

Ross knows what he is doing IMO, would not be where he is if he didn't...

Developing sound defensive skills, including a good understanding of how a zone can be deployed or conversely how you can beat a zone is important for juniors if they want to play at a higher level.

Some posts here appear a little to subjective, personal cricism based on rumour or uneducated guessing is poor form, stick to what you know, others should be ignored.

Reply #423055 | Report this post


Jack Toft  
Years ago

I agree with Bear.

One of the things about coaching is reacting to what the other coach is doing. If putting up a zone defence in U16 is winning games and the opposition coach can't break it, then why blame a coach for winning. At Classics winning is everything, so why not make it hard for the opposing coach and make him/her think.

Playing a zone in U10 is questionable.

Reply #423065 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I've always thought that those who argue against zone defences don't understand either how to run them properly or how to break them. Maybe we should be focussing on coach development rather than contriving rule changes on the pretence of player development.

Reply #423071 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

Yeah, the point of coaching coaches is probably very valid. The best Associations out there have an active coache's coach, someone who takes the time to attend training sessions and watch representative teams (especially) play games when possible and give feedback on key elements to improve...

Not only improve fundamentals in kids, but improve the coaches, the system, the whole program if you like. Victorian clubs just seem to have a more established system, perhaps this is why a perception of self-confidence is portrayed as arrogance by some?

Invariably you will find that the coach who stops learning because he/she believes they know it all will in fact become a frustrated coach, you see them all the time...

Reply #423079 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

There has been a lot of coaching go into good kids, it is after all about them.

If players are happy playing, working on their game and achieving goals then clubs are in good shape. Regardless who coaches them.

It takes a team effort to produce good players

Reply #423094 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

at all levels it is not up to the referees to call a zone it is why you have ideally zone busters, or CS who make the decision. the later however have other hats to wear, ie watch multiple courts, deal with upset coaches and distruptive parents and wipe up blod spills or water spills. Zone busters are needed referees can not referee the game and watch for a zone.

Reply #423096 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

So back to what was (I hope) the original question posed before all the ranting and chest beating started.

Personally, I'm always viewing myself as a development coach. Unless I'm coaching professionally, which I most definitely am not, or senior basketball, why would you coach for any other reason? We are all hopefully in it for the right reasons as a coach, to guide and improve players to keep them in the game.

I do believe a zone defence as a stand alone defensive philosophy is foolish, but if it's taught in conjunction with man to man skills, up the court defensive skills, and multiple other key points, I don't see any reason why not to have it as part of a defensive repertoire, but I wouldn't have it is a base defence.

Where it is up for debate, is the notion of a club offence or defence. Are we better off doing the same as a Melbourne and just teaching shuffle? (I like shuffle before i'm accused of bashing Melbourne).Does that help or hurt the players within that system, or does it expose them to too little amount of other scenarios as a player? Their kids still seem talented and developed, so maybe by already having a structured offence in place, it allows coaches more time to work on skill development? Interested to get others impressions - a logical debate would be great!

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Bear  
Years ago

Anon, any offensice system or structure, be it suffle or another popular set of plays relies on the players being able to run the play with sound fundamentals.

So, to answer that one, all the kids at Melbourne would need to know:

Timing
Patience
Passing
Catching
Footwork
Shooting
Screening
etc...

Can't have the chicken without cracking the egg, or is that the horse in front of the cart??

Regradless, can't run the shuffle with players who are not taught reasonably sound fundamentals first, cheers...

Reply #423103 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

Typo, sorry offensice should be offensive of course.

Also, can I add that in a system like Melbourne's I believe the suffle (or whatever the fancied system is at another Association) would be taught in segments.

Under 12's start by learning the basics, the fundamentals, then slowly introduce one part of the offensive structure.

Introduce the whole system bit by bit, under the watchful eye of the head coach and slowly but surely by the time they are 18's they can run the system with eyes closed.

But, more importantly they have the basics of the game down pat as well...

It's just how a club goes about it mate, the structure needs to be clear and getting all coaches on board is crucial, no cowboys or egos to wreck it along the way and over time any club can get there...

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Dane Suttle  
Years ago

I have no problems with zone being taught and implemented at any level of junior basketball, provided other forms of D are also used. Extremely important kids are taught solid man to man skills and that this form of D is the most used/developed. I also see a problem with kids being taught to run the same offence during a any rep season or the chief offence in any team. I run a basic turnout type offence with my VJBL 16 boys team, but I do give my boys the license to take a player on one on one when the situation demands it. All kids need to be able to handle the ball and create, something that most offenses stop.

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PlaymakerMo  
Years ago

"A good man-to-man looks like a zone, and a good zone looks like a man."

Reply #423110 | Report this post


anon  
Years ago

DV Coach needs to chill - all I asked was winning or development.

Settle down Miss Clark.

Reply #423160 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

anon - you obviously have a personal grudge against this person. At least everyone can obviously see straight through your pettiness.

Reply #423465 | Report this post


anon  
Years ago

Anonymous #423465.

I made one post - the original one. I was seeking debate about winning or development.

I don't know the DV coach personally - I made comment on what I saw and what people spoke to me about at the classic.

I was commenting on the amount of Zones being played at the classic - the 16s Final example was used to highlight my point. What's the big deal??

A personal grudge - not likely. A keen interest in the game and in particular the development of young athletes - guilty as charged!!

Perhaps you should go back and read the threads a little more carefully.

My last post was a dig at the emotional over reaction of the DV Coach's post. Nothing I've said is personally directed at this coach, it was about the perceived over use of Zones.

This topic is about basketball people commenting on the good and not so good things about our game.

Chill out man!!

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