Curious
Years ago

Knox to BigV next year?

If Knox go to BigV, how many current players will stay at Knox and how many will leave to play elsewhere?

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Anonymous  
Years ago

The imports will go you can count on that.

Reply #429424 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Every chance the imports will be gone where ever Knox play.

Reply #429427 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

The question is, how many Knox players are going to stay regardless of what league they are in...

Lester, Mick Hill and CJ are certainly on the old side. John Philip and Shaun Carroll would be doubtful starters. So that's 5 players already.

They haven't got the depth of talent to compete with the big teams in the SEABL and they're paying some veterans a lot.

They probably needed to clean out a season ago.

Reply #429428 | Report this post


firestarter  
Years ago

Kelly Wilson, Gabe Richards, Bec Allen, Odette Andrew and Emily Fryters will no doubt be gone... Unless Cheryl stays to coach for another year that's the only way I could see any of them even considering coming back.

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star  
Years ago

You can always get new recruits if you are in seabl, BigV expect nothing.

Reply #429432 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Strong will be in big v next year anyway....but down at the 'bool

As for the others they'll leave...Orr retire.

The younger guys will head to other SEABL clubs looking to try an get on there bench.

Reply #429434 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

CJ might be on the old side, but he is still one of the best players in SEABL, so I doubt he will "retire"
I also heard Lester will be in the bool.

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Bear  
Years ago

Not sure about the bona fides here, but as an outsider looking in I can't quite believe the amount of negative posting about an Association which has been seen as a bench mark for so long...

One of the big six Melbourne based basketball Associations with a rich heritage and history of success at junior and senior level to be proud of has now been portrayed with the perception of a sinking ship and I for one am sad to see and read about it.

I hope that something positive can come from it and the situation can veresve itself with some leadership and stability!

The constant negativity expressed online can't be a good thing...

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Bear  
Years ago

...reverse itself...

Reply #429447 | Report this post


Balla  
Years ago

Not too sure if Knox doesn't have the depth - the kids on the bench don't see much court time, and the time they do see tends to produce results...

Kids coming through like Hare, Waterhouse, Grant and Leigh are all capable SEABL players. Don't forget you have Aver in that group too who has been out injured with an ACL this season.

Knox should stay in the SEABL no doubt, otherwise those 5 guys all walk.

Knox VYCM are in the top 4 teams in the comp at this stage too - must be some good kids coming through that like Tomat, Horstman, Cope, Toman. They could develop into SEABL players if given opportunity.

From what I hear this is the last season for Hill and Phillip. S.Carroll could also be calling it a day at the end of the season. Strong is off to the Bool no doubt. Carter shouldnt be back I dont think. A massive shift, but that was always going to happen!

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Anonymous  
Years ago

CJ will get a gig. Still best scoring SG in league

Reply #429454 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Hill and Phillips calling it a day, both great servants of club!

Phillip still one of the best stretch 4's in comp

Reply #429455 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Not reading too much into this, but the VYCM team only mangaed 5th on the ladder.

Waverley Falcons 22 18 4 1929 1625 118.71 10 1 8 3 -2 WWWLL 81.82
2 Diamond Valley Eagles 22 18 4 1808 1412 128.05 9 2 9 2 10 WWWWW 81.82
3 Dandenong Rangers 22 16 6 1795 1411 127.21 8 2 8 4 6 WWWWW 72.73
4 Kilsyth Cobras 22 16 6 1666 1328 125.45 8 3 8 3 2 WWLWW 72.73
5 Knox Raiders 22 15 7 1717 1508 113.86 7 4 8 3 8 WWWWW 68.18
6 Hawthorn Magic 22 15 7 1641 1469 111.71 6 5 9 2 2 WWLWW 68.18
7 Melbourne Tigers 22 14 8 1441 1319 109.25 5 6 9 2 -1 WWWWL 63.64
8 Sherbrooke Suns 22 11 11 1665 1587 104.91 6 5 5 6 -2 LWWLL 50.00

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anonymous  
Years ago

If Knox do clean out I think they should look for talent at other clubs that aren't getting the opportunities they should be. For Example, Nunawading have Costa Hronopolous and Mark Breda. Costa was the SEABL D League MVP in 2012 and was putting up some big numbers as a combo guard (averaged 22pts 7rebs 4ass 4stls). Mark Breda was MVP in 2011 averaging a double in points and rebounds and leading the assists count (11pts 11rebs and 4ass per game).

With nunawading so deep in the guard spots and with a pg like Shane McDonald, these 2 have not been given a chance to hit the court each week. If Knox can grab these 2 guys it will only help strengthen the group of 20-22yr guys that they have. Costa could potentially start at that 1 or 2 spot, and Mark Breda would be an excellent 6th man. They can both play all they need is the opportunity.

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anonymous  
Years ago

Staying in SEABL of course

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Thanks 4 your input Costa's mum!

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Jump from Youth to SEABL is huge a lot bigger than big v....so takes time to cut there teeth and learn from Macdonald etc

If you Costa you learn from best PG in comp for a year or two.....nt sure y he didn't play any Youth this year but still rather learn from Macdonald than walk into the negative vibes at Knox!

Reply #429599 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

The issue here is not if they want to saty or go to Big V, its wether or not they can afford to stay in SEABL. Its a business and as such they need to make business decisions. The could reduce thier cost's with one decision and knock about $200k plus off the budget for 2014/15.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Knox can easily run business model....it appears to be a write down more so than a direct loss......simple to trade with as all business have debt.....it's how he world works...but people without business experience run the clubs an have no idea of real business!! that said real business aren't leaving corporate world for th $60k a year bball admin make!

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Anonymous  
Years ago

I can tell you for a fact that the CEO at Knox is on a shit load more than $60k. As for how they trade with such a high value of debt, it will depend on who the debtors are and if they want thier money sooner rather than later. The most important issue will be thier cash flow to meet the items like payrole etc. One of the biggest items will be insurance so I hope they have kept that up to date and that they are meeting thier super requirements for employee's. Thats usually one of the first things to be put aside from being paid. I am pretty sure they are just a TENANT at the State Center so is rent going to be an issue ? No matter what model you have you cant trade as an insolvent organisation so if the $500k debt figure is correct then they better have a good plan and a smart finance manager.

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HO  
Years ago

I think the 500k is a loss, not a debt. There is a very large difference. Word is that the organisation has eaten largely into strong reserves to fund multiple years of losses.

MUI they have management rights over the state sport centre, not just tenancy. Again, a very big difference.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

HO, your correct its a LOSS not a debt but if they have been in the red for the last few years and they are forcasting such a high loss again then they will be running out of reserves bloody fast. once that happens you go into debt and with thier history I doubt they can do that. With the managment rights being so important I would think that the State Gov and Knox City must be feeling worried about quality of people running thier BB flagship venue. I would also be reviewing the books on a regular basis.

Reply #429648 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Is it a write down? A loss of revenue? Monies owed?. Monies borrowed to service this debt. How can they repay if the revenue stream has dropped so much? So many questions. No real answers.
Yet talk of changing comps to save money. Makes no logical sense.

Reply #429657 | Report this post


HO  
Years ago

#429657

I think its been made very clear that there have been losses. The email from their president talks about losses and budgeted losses.

No one has said the revenue stream has dropped. They appear to simply be living beyond their means. of course there may be some extraordinary expenses with the first operational year of the new centre.

It does make sense. It makes pretty simple sense. They cannot cover expenses or commitments currently so they are looking to ways to increase prices or reduce costs to balance their books again.

One of the proposed measures appears to be moving from SEABL to BigV. A considerable saving, reducing the amount of money they need to spend on league fees, on coaching, on players and ancillary costs. Lets say they are currently paying $400k for their SEABL program and can reduce that to $150k in bigV with a very team. In my view the SEABL has been something of a pissing contest for Knox over the years so they may have heavily overextended themselves.

Another option would be a bare bones SEABL program, more like an Albury approach - but not sure the ego's would allow that!

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Anonymous  
Years ago

$400K for 2 seabl teams? tell em you are dreaming.
if they are playing that no wonder that in the shit.

Reply #429687 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Everyone is talking about being broke....pretty sure 50% of Australia owe more than $400k to the bank so the loss/write down isn't a massive issue it's about general business management and planning moving forword to ensure a clear path back to smaller trading losses....don't have to make a profit as the tax implications need to be considered.

Seabl to big v would save short term cash but how does that effect revenue....sponsors, juniors, clinics & expertise loss that will most likely occur all need to be taken into account nt just the registration & player payment costs.

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HO  
Years ago

there are no tax implications for a not for profit organisation.

Reply #429744 | Report this post


VP  
Years ago

Unless Knox can give some sort of long term commitment to remain in the Big V I don't think the Big V Clubs would accept their entry.

Entry is not decided by the Big V Board - its only recommended to the Clubs to vote on at the AGM.

But you never know what the Clubs will do and how they would vote.

Knox may just end up playing SEABL with a significantly reduced budget for a year or two until they get their house in order.

Reply #429764 | Report this post


hughj  
Years ago

Just heard the Vice Chairman has resigned from the Board?

Reply #429790 | Report this post


hughj  
Years ago

Apparently frustated???? Word is he was one of the good guys probably should have been the Chairman.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

VP,

Knox are already a member club of the Big V. It would just be a simple request for an addional team (s).

Other member clubs would have no say.

It would make sense for Knox to do this. Think of all money the association would save playing SCM instead of SEABL.

Reply #430079 | Report this post


anon  
Years ago

Shut up Laurie

Reply #430092 | Report this post


anon  
Years ago

They just beat 2013 SEABL CHAMPS imo. Why go backwards to big v?

Reply #430093 | Report this post


HO  
Years ago

You might do well to read the entire thread anon, then you might not be asking such a stupid question!

Reply #430116 | Report this post


VP  
Years ago

My mistake - forgot Knox came in to Big V with the VYC.

I think you'd find the Clubs would still be voting on their entry into CM & CW.

We will just have to wait & see what Knox decide after the SEABL season is over.

They may not be the only Club to leave SEABL in 2014!

Reply #430163 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Latest news,but not official in anyway is that knox will stay in SEABL with a reduced player payment budget.In reduction they may mean close to Zero

Reply #430167 | Report this post


Happy Days  
Years ago

Common sense prevails...Dont spend money you havent got on player payments.

Reply #430170 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Why would Knox waste money on Airfares?

They could play SCM easily on a budget 50k or less as opposed to spending 450k

Reply #430654 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

No one else's is considering leaving SEABL.

Same crap that is always rumoured this time of the year.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Of coarse Knox should leave SEABL, saving money is the most important thing right? The Club and program profile is not important at all right? Better to play 18 games a year against dud teams than 28 in a semi NATIONAL competition right? Besides BigV is far more than 50K and Seabl far less than 450K..

While we're at it maybe the Melbourne Tigers should leave the NBL, because that's more expensive than SEABL?? So by that theory its better to be in SEABL than the NBL right??

EVERY year, without fail the socialist big V big mouths sprout rumors to undermine SEABL, give it a reast Laurie....

Reply #430660 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

How would the Knox youth League teams go in Championship Big V?.That is who would be left playing for Knox if they leave SEABL.I suppose,Kilsyth,Nunawading and Sandy can take their pick.

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HO  
Years ago

#430660

A little uptight?

I am not sure anyone from BigV is sprouting some socialist rubbish. The discussion has been about Knox because there have been strong indications that Knox have seriously considered a move to BigV to assist with their current financial plight. Its a reasonable likely alternative to the current financial situation.

You seem to forget a few things. In the mid 2000's Dandenong stepped back from SEABL to BigV and it did their program no damage at all. No obvious hiccup in their development pathway, no damage to the Dandenong brand etc. They went back to SEABL, largely because of the d-league split, but on the whole it did not hurt them.

Of course the alternative is a small budget team in SEABL. What is the risk to Knox's reputation of this? What if the team fails abysmally? You can be Albury and be rubbish most years in the SEABL because you are the only show in town, but can Knox afford that in metro Melbourne?

Might be better to be a moderately budgeted BigV champ side being successful than a poorly funded unsuccessful SEABL side. Unlike Dandenong, Knox have a reasonably poor record over the years of funneling junior talent into senior programs so it might be harder for Knox to genuinely put a low budget competitive SEABL unit on the floor.

To be clear. I am NOT advocating either. Just giving you some clear and rational reasons why it is being discussed and what the alternatives are.

There has been very little speculation btw in recent years about SEABL teams joining BigV. Its been a fairly static situation, generating very little discussion, since the 2009 moves.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

HO, i just want to clear up the Dandenong example for you, the committee determined that the move back to BigV had most defiantly hurt their brand and they saw it as imperative to get back to SEABL ASAP or they risked a mass walkout of their better juniors to local rival clubs.

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HO  
Years ago

Apologies to Albury there. Typed that a bit quickly!

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HO  
Years ago

#430680

Interesting speculation. In my view it was a circumstance, not a pre-considered decision, that moved Dandenong and Sandringham to SEABL in that year.

Both teams had actually committed to BigV for the following season (2010 from memory) and it was the overall pullout of the other YL teams to form the d-league that precipitated the move to SEABL for the relevant senior sides. Their hand was forced to some degree (not saying they were not compliant!)

All of this occurred AFTER the BigV's AGM, which is when acceptances are normally official.

I remember it very well, because the other BigV clubs (those left behind) were furious, left with a budget deficit, a competition restructure etc after the official close date.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

HO, its not speculation its a fact. There was growing concern about the pathway for juniors that the club was providing and the belief that BigV provided a side step rather than natural progression into the NBL's via SEABL which was/is held in much higher regard by National league coaches.

The club wanted to be seen as offering the best possible pathway for their kids, in a region surrounded by 3 other power houses with strong SEABL based programs they were risking losing kids who wanted to be able to play at the highest club level.
Had they stayed in BigV their program would be a shadow of what it is today, simple fact.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Confirmation I am reliably informed that Knox will stay in SEABL. New roster for men with 3 retirements and 1 transfer at moment

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VP  
Years ago

Who are the players in the last 10 years who have come through the junior ranks of Dandenong-Knox-Kilsyth and then through their SEABL teams to progress to the NBL.

Why I ask because I'm not sure there have been too many at all.

If you take a look at a small country Club like Horsham you will find they have produced 4 junior players to progress through to the NBL in the last 10 years.

For most of that time Horsham played Big V Div 2 so the perception that these three SEABL Clubs provide a real pathway to the NBL for juniors seems hard to believe in my opinion.

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HO  
Years ago

#430694

As I have said to many people here, its not a fact because you say it is. It remains speculative, unless you can support it with evidence.

Not being disrespectful to you, but you are basically saying "I am right because I say I am". That's not an argument.

As indicated, if I have the sequence of events correct, and I think I do, Dandenong had decided to stay in BigV for that year, but the post agm maneuverings made it virtually impossible for them to stay. That would indicate that they did not make a decision to go to back to SEABL at all, based on brand, rather than on other issues that were emerging.

At the time Dandenong were very focused on moving athletes on to College rather than national league - it was seen as a key outcome for their YL teams, and they were having great success with that strategy.

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HO  
Years ago

VP, I agree with you to a large extent. I think many of the big associations have performed very poorly, considering their weight of numbers, in this regard. Nunawading in my view have generally done ok.

I would suggest that Dandenong have had good long term success transitioning female players btw.

Your Horsham example is fantastic. McDonald, Bruce, Creek, Bruce...

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Not in every case but some players that are associated to certain junior teams actually started at other clubs .Maybe not as much now but both Dandy and Nunawading reaped the rewards of a lot of transfers,as these clubs seemed to be the place to be if you wanted to make junior state teams

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Q  
Years ago

The move to Big V was a huge help to Dandenong. Did them absolutley no damage and credit to them for having the courage to do it.

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Tiger Watcher  
Years ago

Dandy did it short term to get straighen out but the plan was to always go back to SEABL in the meduim term.

At the time the BIGV/VBL needed Dandy as much as Dandy needed them so it worked well for the profile etc.

Things are a little different now and the Big V for all of there short comings are pretty well runs and in a good financial position so I doubt the members will vote in knox for just 1 or 2 seasons...it would have to be a 4 or 5 year deal as a minimum to satisfy the Big V membership.

Is being in the Big V for 4/5 years want knox want? It will hurt them in the medium to long term with Juniors, sponsors etc, but I guess that's a call for people from within the club to make.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

How can Big V knock back anyone who meets the criteria for entry?

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Everyone said at the time that it was bad for Dandy. They were wrong.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

What a lot of people miss in these conversations is that BigV is a member club run organisation. The member clubs vote on the rules, the structure and the entries. Paid staff simply carry out the activities required to deliver on those decisions. Yes, the Board has a lot of say, but any recommendations have to be carried at the AGM each year. As for entries, there are quite strict conditions of entry to ensure the long term viability of the competition. Clubs have to convince a). the board, and b). the member clubs that they can meet those criteria

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