Latrentis
Years ago

No zone rule passed U12 VJBL

As per VJBL website:
On the 21st August 2013, the VJBL Delegates voted to introduce the 'No Zone' Policy for all Under 12 VJBL competitions.
This policy will be introduced at the start of Grading Phase for the 2013/14 Season, with all Under 12 VJBL coaches being required to attend one of the 'Man to Man' clinics provided by the VJBL in conjunction with Basketball Victoria.

Should have been voted on a long time ago, but great news for all the zone haters out there. I personally think it's a great idea as now coaches will be forced to teach proper man to man defence (if they aren't already doing so).
Wonder which clubs this will affect the most?

Topic #32560 | Report this topic


Go for it  
Years ago

Great idea, will affect teams who have coaches the look up at the scoreboard the whole game and don't care they have a player who looks like a tree in the middle of the key.

Reply #434934 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

...Golph clap...

Reply #434936 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Great result, i think its going to expose a few people, and it will force a few coaches to actually "coach" proper defense now.

Reply #434938 | Report this post


Happy Days  
Years ago

Common sense prevails....

Reply #434939 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Wow - great initiative long overdue. Melbourne Tigers under 12 program will need an urgent revamp!!!

Reply #434944 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

So will a few others, Altona being one of them

Reply #434949 | Report this post


BB  
Years ago

Collingwood and Altona are going to be in trouble. Warragul are another team that doesn't mind a full 40 minutes in a 2-3 zone. Will certainly make junior basketball more enjoyable to watch as there won't be that classic statue defence

Reply #434966 | Report this post


Astor  
Years ago

Lookout for the resurgence of Frankston then! If I remember correctly, they've had a blanket junior-wide ban on zone implemented for quite a few years now.

Reply #434972 | Report this post


Melbourne Boy  
Years ago

Coach: "Hey Johnny, you have the big kid defending you so go and stand in the corner"

Johnny: "Should i cut or present for the ball coach?"

Coach: "No Johnny, stay there for now until he switches, we'll keep him out of the key while speedy Jack plays 1 on 1"

Reply #434974 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

He's allowed to play help defense MB - just not "be a tree". Sounds like someone who will be exposed...

Reply #434975 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Great rule change for the greater good of basketball.

It won't hurt any club, it just means that some coach education will be critical.

Melbourne Boy, your example is exactly what I would expect to hear from a win at all costs coach. God, I hope you don't coach a junior team!

Reply #434977 | Report this post


Melbourne Boy  
Years ago

I agree with the concept and think it will work at VC level because of the quality of referee, but i worry about the Metro and Regional grades, they'll be penalizing split line defense, and the parents on the sideline will be screaming every time a help defender stops a kid's drive.

Reply #434980 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Melbourne Boy, do us all a solid and go to the coaching clinic they are puting on and let us know if they will make it work or if you still see the same problems going to happen after you attend and ask them about your concerns.

Reply #434984 | Report this post


Melbourne Boy  
Years ago

Will all referees be attending the clinic?
It's not the coaches i'm worried about.

Reply #434985 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

no zone is good

most other states have this rule in atleast up to 14s

yes it is sometimes as issue to enforce & you do have peanuts saying they are playing 'zone' when its man to man... its up to court supervisor and higher ups to ensure it is maintained properly

Reply #434989 | Report this post


Pauly B  
Years ago

This is fantastic news. It will take time and education for all parties coaches/refs/spectators before things settle down. However, getting rid of zombie zones and teaching kids how to defend properly will only benefit the kids in the long run. I hope after next season they extend it to U14's as well.

Reply #434996 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Are melbourne boy and hugh_j related?

Reply #434997 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

I agree, let it work itself out and if it goes the way I'd expect, implement it at least up to 14 age group, yes. But I think beyond that you then need to get kids playing zone also and they should be better for it, so above 14 level to the 16's and above , no!

Reply #434998 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

its going to be a total FUBAR. Lets see how many so called ZONE busters there actually are and how many arguments and complaints there will be over interpretations.

Reply #435002 | Report this post


Nuburgring  
Years ago

Remind me again about how much trouble Victoria and Australia is in defensively, nationally and internationally, and how poorly we develop defenders by allowing zone in the current format ...

By the way, next time I press the opposition and they run a press breaker, I'm going to start a petition to 'Ban the Press Breaker' ... Cos remember, kids shouldn't be running patterned press breakers, they should be taught how to 'play' and be developed fundamentally to beat it ;) ;) ;)


Reply #435003 | Report this post


Melbourne Boy  
Years ago

Australian's can't shoot, that's the problem on the international stage, defensively we're known for being tough and physical. In Europe the equivalent of VC kids from under 14's train every morning with the team for 2 hours, we're scared here of burning them out so we put them on cotton wool.

Back on topic... For every 1 VC kid in under 12's there's 5 Metro and Regional players, should they be playing m2m most of the time, yes, do the ref's have the knowledge to make a proper judgement what the D is, no, do they have the power to judge, yes, and they will, incorrectly.

Reply #435008 | Report this post


Side line eye  
Years ago

Great idea but the actual policing is a nightmare. The referees cannot do it so you will need a "Zone Buster" at all venues. In our league if the coach is concerned re a zone you need to approach the "Zone Buster" and he then makes the decision if the defence is in fact playing zone. Then implents penalties if required which are 1st a warning, another breach is a Tech Foul then 3rd breach is a 2nd Tech the coach is ejected as per normal rules. Never seen that done but usually a warning is enough.

Reply #435016 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

I'll stack our junior internationals up against Euro' kids the same age any day of the week and they will never let us down. USA, a different story because they just live and breath it, but your point @Melb Boy is slightly narrow minded I believe.

Having seen the way early morning winter sessions before school can take their toll on growing kids I can confirm that it is the recovery that is more important than the training.

Your comment is short on the fact that Euro kids come from many different cultures, climates and programs, they are so diverse you just can't compare their school age kids to ours, really...

The perception that our kids can't shoot is also not true, they can shoot, they just need more time to dedicate towards practising and getting the right technique taught to them, so if you are a coach that's where you come into it mate.

Euro kids in some countries are treated like they are Olympic team athletes already and let's face it basketball is number two over there behind soccer, where is it here, number 5 or 6...? It is just not a fair comparison the way you portray it.

I applaud the VJBL for having a go at implementing something that has the opportunity to improve the standard of juniors in this state, even further than we are at the moment, that's why Victoria is one of the leaders and not a follower IMO!

Reply #435022 | Report this post


Melbourne Boy  
Years ago

Bear, watch any decent European or US junior team, not even a national team but maybe a travelling team of rep players, and each of their shots look the same, nice arc and technique, here we have bits and pieces of everything.

Secondly, if over cautious people stopped getting in the kids ear down here telling them that it will burn them out if they train every day i'll bet they'd be happy and fine working their asses off.

Back to the Zone, i hope i'm wrong and the introduction of the rule is a success, but i fear that only VC level will benefit and be reported on and it will be horrendous beneath that. Parents will be even more angry at little kids games (where you just wish they'd shut up already) and i wouldn't want to give them more reason to not play basketball and stick with just footy.

Reply #435026 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Clearly you may need to go and listen to parents watching junior footy from the sidelines.

Reply #435028 | Report this post


Latrentis  
Years ago

You have to remember Melbourne boy that alot of juniors here play basketball alongside other sports so can't commit to 2 hrs of training every morning.
I think with this being a 'new' rule next season it will be governed pretty well. Opposing coaches will be sure to let the umpires know if they see any glimpse of a zone.


Reply #435037 | Report this post


blah blah blah  
Years ago

know of person that was in a junior European Olympic development squad - trust me basketball is not demanding.

Reply #435038 | Report this post


Big V  
Years ago

Will this mean that the VC Knox U18 Girls will not be allowed to play zone? They've been doing it all year!

Reply #435042 | Report this post


Big V  
Years ago

Also, Rowville Secondary are taking their Senior teams to Europe in Nov/Dec. Will be interested to see how they go. Good quality team.

Reply #435043 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Wake up Big V it only applies to under 12's. Unless you are implying something about that team in particular?

Reply #435044 | Report this post


Pauly B  
Years ago

When I first started coaching (about 12 years ago) the association had a "no zone" in the first half rule. This was C/B grade domestic and those ref's had no trouble enforcing the rule. I think it will actually be much easier for the refs at regional and lower metro grades to spot a zone because the coaches/players won't do as good of a job of hiding it. The lower rep grades also usually have higher instances of zombie zone and it's not asking much for a ref to pull that up as it's so obviously not m2m.

Most of the outrage will come from spectators that don't understand the rule and what a zone is or isn't. I still hear spectators yell out for cross court violations based on the old rule that was changed about 5 years ago. Same thing when a player steps through on a post move and there's always somebody yelling out "travel!!!!" because they don't know the rule.

As far as work ethic of our kids goes, some kids do suffer from burnout. When I first started as an assisitant rep coach we had a kid (U16 boys)that had to sit out trainings due to tendanitis in both knees. Domestic + Rep + NITCP + School bball + state training. That is a pretty big load for anyone. While it's important to work hard, it's also important to recover correctly and have a break sometimes.

Reply #435045 | Report this post


LC  
Years ago

Long overdue IMO. BV need to not only teach the coaches, but the referees. In time, everyone will benefit.

Reply #435086 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

The referee's have enough to worry about, looking for defensive trends will be a distraction short term unless its a statue zone.
Dont get me wrong its a great thing, but its going to take time and patience.

Reply #435089 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Playing devils advocate here, How do you police a switching man? Splitline positioning 2 passes from the ball?, weak side help?
There are ways of playing a lose zone or disguising a zone...

Reply #435091 | Report this post


@  
Years ago

Been here in sa for.sometime and always is a point for debate on recognizing a zone

Reply #435106 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

And never gets enforced because the person responsible doesn't have the skills to do it.

Reply #435132 | Report this post


anon  
Years ago

That's stuffed Ross Clark's chances of coaching U12s

Reply #435190 | Report this post


Nix 62  
Years ago

I think you will find it will not be up to the referee to enforce the no zone rule on the night. Video footage and information from opposition at the game can be provided to the VJBL after the game. The VJBL will then review the case and issue any infringements if they believe it's warranted. I think that's a better system than any arguments occurring on the night.

I believe the no-zone rule will benefit the development of the players at this age immensely.

Reply #435204 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Switching man to man in u12... Lol wow.

Reply #435207 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Video review, Are you on drugs Nix 62 ??

Reply #435225 | Report this post


Titan15  
Years ago

Hey everyone, Ross Clark here

Firstly to anon#435188-435190 you are a muppet and an oxygen thief who is weak hiding behind an anon name. If you have an issue with me, come and talk to me you spineless human being.

I must have beaten you, and your incompetence most likely as a coach has meant you and your team has lost.

As for the new rule into Under 12 VJBL basketball, I fully support the banning of no zone. yes it will be difficult to police but hopefully this has been thought about as well (which I am sure it has).

As for my own coaching and playing a zone this year in under 16VC boys. Firstly I will let my record of Back to back National Under 16 Champions, Aust Development camp coach, Victorian Championship winning coach and National Junior Classic winning coach stand for itself. These titles were playing man to man with a mix of zone.

The type of defence my under 16 team is playing is mainly due to our lack of size. We have 8 players of which 6 are guards and two 4 man.

So to my team and our team defense. We are full court and half court pressing back to Syracuse type zone, to suggest we run back and play a straight 2-3 zone is stupid and naive and even if we did, opposition coaches come up with something to beat it. We have run it all season and for my team to make final 4 is an awesome effort. These boys didn't even make top 10 in under 14's, so how about you respect what they have accomplished this season. Final 4 at Eltham, won National junior Classic and Final 4 Victorian Championship with a chance to go to big dance is a great season.

We finished 7th and have won two finals, beating the 2nd place team on their home court on Friday night. Teams have [played zone agaisnt us this season, I for one do not whinge and bitch about, my players just need to get better against different styles. Also when we have lost which we have, I don't see anyone whinging about my zone defence then.

So to anon 435188-435190, again you are a muppet and flog, and most likely a loser as well. Will love to see your reply, I am sure it will be some spineless attempt, but if you are big enough to put your name to your post I will be staggered, again gutless individual.

Reply #435226 | Report this post


dane suttle  
Years ago

Well done Ross, one of the best replies I've read on hoops!
Love to see anon #435190 own up!

Reply #435227 | Report this post


Nix 62  
Years ago

I don't expect this person will own up as it's much easier to post a one sentence statement having a go at someone, rather than actually anything of substance that is meaningful or useful to others that includes some real thought!

Just lazy and provocative!

Reply #435230 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Ross just rag-dolled that anonymous whinger! haha great job!

Reply #435237 | Report this post


anon  
Years ago

Dear Ross,

I witnessed your game Friday night. All I saw was 32mins of zone. Clearly its about winning and your ego above player development. Is this why you are not coaching at DV next year?

Love

Oxygen Thief.

Reply #435266 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Ross iS coaching at DV next year

Reply #435267 | Report this post


Titan15  
Years ago

Dear anon,

AKA Oxygen thief, spineless, weak hearted poor excuse of a human being. If

Firstly, if you watched the game, you obviously don't know much, pretty sure we started in a 2-2-1 full court press after each score and end ball. Happy for you to come and sit on my bench and learn a thing or two.

Secondly off a side ball in back court we were into our 2-2-1 half court trap designed to take time off the shot clock.

Obviously you think you know so much about me, I will be coaching at DV next year you muppet.

As for my ego, please give me a break. Your EGO is in your way, as your are too gutless to even put your name to your post, so step up to the plate anon, let us discuss your coaching credantials, oh that's right you probably sit down to p**s, you weak hearted flog.

By the way, coem and watch us next week when we play in the Fianl 4, feel free to sit on my bench, hell, come to training on Thursday nigth so you can see the preparation we will do for Tigers, just like we did for Eltham.

Reply #435269 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

How bloody hard is it to run a decent ZONE offence ? All you anti zone morons need to learn how to coach and teach the ENTIRE game. I dont see the point in banning zones if coaches are still to dumb to teach the game.

Reply #435270 | Report this post


Triton64  
Years ago

Anon whoever you are, you are a jerk. I have seen those boys play and they play bloody hard and they deserve everything they have achieved this season. As for having a go about Ross Clark's supposed "ego" that is a load of crap. I bet you don't even know the guy and you are just pissed because he has previously beaten you and this is your way of getting back at him. Well guess what you 'spineless flog' if you have something to say to someone, say it to their face, stop being a keyboard warrior and hiding behind the screen. Man up and stop slagging people off just because they can do something better than you.

Reply #435275 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Can't wait until the rule is in - if it creates this much heat on a forum, imagine the nutcase parents in the crowds fighting this one out.

I am against totally against the rule. I don't think it is required and believe the line of "its better for development" is an overused slogan with little relevancy. A poorly taught man to man defence will not be better for development than a poorly taught zone. Poor coaching is poor coaching. And the opposite is also true. A well coached zone is educational and incorporates strong defensive fundamentals.

Players need to learn how to play against different defences and the earlier the better. Zone offenses require good passing, hard cutting, sealing, using short corners, strategy (shifting zones) as well as penetration, pitch and shooting skills. These are points of development for which are no longer required at U12 level.

Now, I do agree that perhaps zone be outlawed during grading in the VJBL season, before teams have had the ability to lay down their structures, a shonkey zone can be effective. Teams may be able to scratch to a grade they are not ready for or worthy of, and keep teams more appropriate from a successful grading.

However once the regular season rolls around - play ball.

Another matter.....why bring in a rule change before clearly outlining a successful method of adjudicating it? Coaches reporting coaches is not going to be good for this sport.

Reply #435283 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Just wait until the Eltham sooks get beaten by a full court press a few times. Both of them will then start up a Ban the Press blog at 11.30 on a friday night.

Reply #435294 | Report this post


TWA888  
Years ago

Two of the biggest issues debated on coaching in junior basketball seem to be the reliance on zone instead of teaching man to man and teams that press when they are flogging teams and trying to win by as much as possible instead of developing themselves.

What if the new rule became 'if you are up by 20 points or more, you have to play 1/4 court man to man'.

No presses, no going back to zone (which makes it even harder for the losing team to score).

The winning team will have to learn to play man to man- if they suck at it for a while, their games will be closer and they will be able to go back to zone and win if they have to. They won't be punished right away for not knowing M2M.

Eventually they will either get good enough at it to play M2M an entire game or the game will be much closer. If a team is blowing out games by 30-40 playing 1/4crt M2M then they deserve to.

Those teams not winning will have a better chance to be competitive and then can either stick with zone or start learning M2M for when they are in game where they are up by 20+

It's not perfect, but I don't think any solution will be. All we can do is push these coaches to use M2M (and to ease up on belting teams) without threatening their W/L record that so many are obsessed with. A team pressing/zoning and getting up by 20 in the first 10 minutes then going to 1/4 M2M and winning by 30 isn't perfect but it's better than a whole game of it and seeing a 65-5 scoreline.

Do people think this could work?

Reply #435559 | Report this post




 

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