Anonymous
Years ago

Ken Cole: NBL needs to go back to winter

NBL return to playing in winter, adopting the 48-minute game, scrapping the player points system and reviewing the salary cap.

San Diego-based Cole coached the Adelaide 36ers to the single best all-time regular season record of 24-2 in 1986 and was named NBL Coach of the Year.

His extraordinary coaching career, playing credentials and position as a past president of the NBL Coaches Association, aligned with his distance from the league, give him a unique perspective and the outspoken advocate for change was at his best.

"First, second and third - change the season," he said.

"Our goal was always to showcase the cream of Australian talent and supplement that talent with the best imports we could find.

"The change of season (to summer) forced almost all of our elite players to take their talents overseas as the money was just simply too much to turn down."


http://www.news.com.au/sport/basketball/hall-of-famer-ken-cole-says-the-nbl-should-switch-back-to-winter-48minute-games-and-dump-the-player-points-system/story-fndkzqrr-1226788982893

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Anonymous  
Years ago

It's amazing how many people out there who can't understand that guys who play overseas won't be able to play in the NBL even if the season is in winter, that is when they get three months break or one month break and then play for the Boomers.

It's good to create an article but it is such a junk opinion to run with.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

If people honestly believe that moving back to Winter is the right move, then they have no idea. The AFL and NRL would bury the NBL when it comes to media exposure (amongst other things)

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GWB  
Years ago

The key to fixing the NBL?... basically firing everyone who has ever been involved with the sport in administration/CEO level over the past 15 years.. doing the complete opposite to everything they did with a bunch of fresh faces who have a clue.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

GWB, sadly I agree. Recycled ideas from the last 10-15 years, with much promised and nothing delivered

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GWB  
Years ago

I had hope that THIS YEAR we would see a change. We saw slight adaptations to the rules that didnt stick.. a change in rules for shirt colors (whoopty doo).. a few very good imports (nothing to do with the administration) and a complete lack of any type of promotion.. as per usual.

The NBL... The league of "things will be better next year"

For all these crisis meetings, seems no one has the lightglobe moment about promotion. Frasier Neill is just proving to be another clown at the circus..

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BALLER#3  
Years ago

yeah i dont believe in swapping to winter, too many players will be having boomers commitments etc.

I think they should go the big bash way but with more games. 2 months of season games and then 1 month for play offs.

Say November/December regular season. Each team plays two games per week one thurs/fri and one sat/sun.

With a couple extra teams it would work perfectly if everyone played everyone twice so 10 teams 18 regular season games.

top 6. All finals best of 3.
quarters 3rd vs 6th, 4th vs 5th,
semis 1st vs Quarter winner, 2nd vs Quarter winner
then GF

With this format 2/3 of the season would be during school holidays which would boost crowd numbers.

Players who perform well could attract an NBA offer post season after the NBA all Star Break.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Good one Cole, a salary cap of 2-3 million. Where is that money going to come from? The tooth fairy?

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GWB  
Years ago

Yeah good point Ballerz.. I think less games.. the season is half way and already becoming tedious. A shorter 3-4 month season, month play offs.. a break for the bigger boomers commitments maybe. They use to do it before, don't see why they cant again. If we up the amount of imports it wont be so hard. Either way, I don't think our current ceo or any of them have the guts to make big changes.. until someone shows they have some balls in their sack I think the league will simply plod a long. Changing this league and making it a big player in the market is going to take high risk/high reward action.. not hoping for the best

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Anonymous  
Years ago

For over a decade, we have had different people coming in and promising to "Fix" the NBL.

Ali, Rymarz, Burton, Sengstock, Keneally etc.

And not ONE of these people have done anything significant at all.

"It takes time" "Wait till next year" I have heard this numerous times before

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KB3  
Years ago

Ken Cole has an answer for every question nobody has ever asked him.

Calls himself the 2nd greatest basketball coach of all time ( only behind Phil Jackson)

The guy has no idea about anything basketball related since 1988.




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Steven  
Years ago

I agree with shortening the season if only 8 teams make it 22games and shorten season by 2 months. The season drags on it would give guys like Ennis a chance to join Miami from NBA allstar break.

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GWB  
Years ago

one of the biggest solutions is the most obvious... PROMOTION! gotta spend money to make money, promnotion should be there biggest priority but somehow I dont think it ranks in there top 30 even

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GWB  
Years ago

Frasier Neill knows whats wrong.. but I would feel WAY more confident if in his interviess he started talking solutions.. I am yet to hear a single solution or idea for next year... just the same self congratulations we got from keneally

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Swagger  
Years ago

Winter works a million times better for the NBL:

A. Not competing with NBA League Pass - so many borderline NBL fans would rather sit at home and watch league pass than go to games. League Pass kills the available NBL audience in summer.

B. There is far, far less competition in winter compared to summer, even taking into account AFL and NRL. Not to mention the fact it's summer, no one is looking to be indoors.

C. What boomer players? Last olympics only Gibson and Crawford were NBL based boomers. Not like there's a big talent drain of boomers for an international tournament like back in the 90s.

Moving to summer was one of the bigger killers for the NBL and dismissing the move back to winter out of hand without thought seems silly.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

The NBL was in big trouble BEFORE it moved to Summer. Since moving to Summer, not much has changed

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NBL Fan  
Years ago

Stay with sumemr

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GWB  
Years ago

Anonymous.. the NBL moved in summer in like what... 1999? U cannot tell me that the NBL was in trouble in 96-97 and 98! ..

Heres my run down of what happened.

Switched to summer.. alienated some
Boomers failed to medal... game lost momentum
Michael Jordan did his last retirement as a Bull..


Those are the things that crushed the NBL in my opinion.. it was doing just fine until then, then round 2001 was it? the game was shifted to ABC.. Australia failed to qualify for the World Cup, soon after the game was off FTA..

I would say that 2001 was the worst year in Australian Basketball history and the year in which the whole game went lightyears backwards... trauma from which we are only just beginning to recover from as a game and the NBL is slowly staggering out of as a league.

Switching back to winter is something worth seriously considering... when it comes to competition.. NBL is basically out matched everywhere it goes.. A league/big bash in summer, AFL/NRL in winter.. Cricket in between... if Winter gives us a shot at luring in the Basketball junkies that otherwise would be watching NBA, and if it gives us a shot at luring NBA players it needs to be seriously considered.

However, I don't expect big moves or changes from current management.. actually I dont expect much at all.. just more diatribe about what needs to be fixed and not a whole lot of HOW... the season is mid way, and from a Administration standpoint it has stagnated.. they have not tried to promote.. the refereeing has slumped again.. and wheres Brisbane?

Personally I was all for the league to be re-made when they looked at doing it... tare it down, new name, new concept, new everything.. but in the end the gutless twats renamed the NBL, the NBL... and they did nothing and continue to do nothing... some form of add campaign for the play offs would give me some hope!... people like to hope they are saving money for some big moves next year, somehow I think they aren't

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Swagger  
Years ago

The move to summer was 1998/99 (the 1998 season ran from around Feb to July to accommodate).

The decision to move was made in 1996.....long before the NBL started to struggle. Anyone who thinks it was struggling before the summer move is very confused.

The league moved to ABC for 1998.

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Swagger  
Years ago

Some other points of reference for people confused about some of the important milestones in the downfall of the league:

Hobart Devils, Geelong Supercats and Gold Coast Rollers were kicked out at the end of 1996 (a couple of those owners were paid by the NBL to hand back their license).

The North Melbourne Giants and South East Melbourne Magic merged at the end of 1998.

The Victoria Titans were bought by Fiddes for the 2002/03 season and made the Victoria Giants.

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GWB  
Years ago

I think the end of the 90's and early 00's just all culminated really really badly. and over a decade of mediocrity for the NBL is just really hard to reverse... I think we have had some very good talent, and games played in the league since 2004 onwards.. but I just think that the league has been a headless chicken offcourt.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

KB3 absolutely agree with you, the only person that agrees with cole is the bloke that writes this smack in the paper! Mr I know everything about basketball himself and is still stuck in the 80's

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catching fire  
Years ago

summer is the way - better as a summer sport when college ball and NBA around.

would never stand a chance v AFL / NRL

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Swagger  
Years ago

You're having a laugh Catching Fire.

Better as a summer sport competing for eye balls with league pass? Competing with League Pass shrinks the NBL's audience, not enhances it.

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LC  
Years ago

I'm one that thinks the NBL is competing with the NBA and losing out as a result big time.

The proliferation of NBA games on pay TV and now the internet via League Pass are in direct competition with the NBL, and therefore the NBL is losing their own target market to the NBA. The NBA is the pinnacle and for most basketball enthusiasts #1 choice. You may be losing 50% or even more of your target market to the NBA - hoops in this country is biting off its own head as a result.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

People need to care.

They need to care about the players, the teams and rivalries.

I cared about the Magic. I cared about the Titans. I hated the Tigers. If Goorj told me to hate them (even if it was completely manufactured) I did. I hated the 36ers. I hated Paul Rees. Now I couldn't give two shits.

Doesn't matter when or where you play or even how good the players are, if people don't care, the game doesn't exist.

We have a base that are interested but nothing that screams broad appeal.

It's the disconnect between the broader public and the NBL that is the issue.

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Moneyballer  
Years ago

NBL should go from March till June. Also they should switch to different TV network.

Promotion is the key though, TV commercials that advertise the league and individual teams on free to air and a billboard in each teams respective city should be enough. A commercial that just features the star on each team and a few other good players highlights would be good.

Adelaide's one would feature Gary Ervin's quick crossovers and 3's then showing Gibbo's passes and stuff from Dj and Frye and have TNT by ACDC in the background.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Ken Cole is going to fix it again with other peoples money that never turns up

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Anonymous  
Years ago

So the guy living in the US knows what is best for the NBL?

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Anonymous  
Years ago

GWB nothing has changed?
Perth has how many coming to its games? actually bigger crowds that in Coles time.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Takes two people, 1 to talk crap and the other to publish it

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Reading Boti's article Cole still thinks KK is running the show, he is on top of it!

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Swagger  
Years ago

Forgot Cole people, play the ball not the man.

Winter is the way to go.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

When the NBL was relegated to 12AM telecasts on Channel 10 in 1996 was when the league started to really struggle. That is a fact

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Proud  
Years ago

Summer is fine by me, Wildcats advertise and they out attend 1day internationals and fairly certain that at the same time Perth Glory are losing shitloads whilst Wildcats make a decent $million.

Teams need to advertise and if it takes a visiting Perth Wildcats team to advertise on their opponents Telly for the week leading up ie in Cairns or Townsville for example then surely that could be a trend that richer teams could use entering a rivals home court... Wouldn't see the use for it for Tigers games whilst they are playing at the tiny little stadium

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Wonder if the move to Summer had something with the Sydney 2000 Olympics. (hello basketball Qld).

From a corporate sponsors point of view Summer sucks. Difficult to even give away tickets to corporate box during the lead up to Christmas and also in January. People going away on Holidays, Christmas parties etc.

Personally I find it kinda of boring with so few teams in the league now and no local team to support, so I watch NBA league pass.

The lead into the NBL season and finals get no air due to AFL, NRL finals at the start and start of football seasons at the end NBL finals time.

I would give serious thought to moving and condensing the seasons.

The game is also destroyed by some venues blasting music throughout games, preventing the crowd from getting into the game.

Kudos to the Wildcats for what they have been able to do and I am sure it wouldn't be much different during another time of the year.

Cairns no football teams, Townsville, Wollongong only NRL. NZ not sure how local league would affect.

Also the AFL crowd is different to the NRL crowd and is different to the NBL crowd, not exactly the same market.

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GWB  
Years ago

Anonymous.. nothing has changed as far as the league on a whole is concerned. Perth can take all the credit for its success on its own and is a testament to the fact that with some proper promotion an NBL team CAN be a staple in a city like Perth. The NBL in general is in NO way responsible for Perths success outside of simply hosting the games it plays.

Not everyone has Perth money, this is why the league lags... no one is investing in any form of promotion... I feel like Perth is just in a completely different league professionally to the rest.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

I just saw an NBL Ad on Channel ONE.

Are they finally listening?

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Anonymous  
Years ago

"Not everyone has Perth money, this is why the league lags... no one is investing in any form of promotion... I feel like Perth is just in a completely different league professionally to the rest."

Very, very true

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Anonymous  
Years ago

As long as the NbL don't schedule games on the same day as the local aFL game it would work. Obviously this would really work in Melbourne though

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Wildcat Fan  
Years ago

Yes if every team had a Jack Bendat, that would help. However the Wildctas do a hell of a job getting into the community and growing the sport, and therefore growing the club.

It wasnt always like this however. Despite the enourmous community involvement and marketing, the success is helped a lot by having an onwer like Bendat that could run the entire league if he wanted to.


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Anonymous  
Years ago

Why don't the Tigers replicate Perth?

Sure Perth has Bendat but Melbourne has Slepoy/Kestleman who recently sold Dodo for $250,000,000

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Michael D  
Years ago

I'm curious. Would the 'move to winter' folk accept having a bunch of midweek games each week after the move takes place?

I'm talking Tuesdays, Wednesdays, Thursdays... all the nights the AFL and NRL aren't on our TV screens.

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Swagger  
Years ago

Michael D - I have thought of this possibility and the answer is (with conditions) yes.

Yes if it meant better tv coverage (or the prospect of some).

Yes if it meant a stronger league.

Get the competition away from summer and away from league pass and we will probably have more basketball people watching NBL.

We used to have Big Wednesdays on Fox and the crowd numbers when comparing like to like (ie not West Sydney numbers but teams like Adelaide) were better than what we are doing now. I actually think not competing with all the other summer activities that occur on weekends helped.

We are not a huge market, we have to be different and own a timeslot where there are gaps. We have strike out and be aggresive in marketing the league in new ways not previously done before.

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GWB  
Years ago

Swagger I don;t see how a stronger league is possible with mid week games... people wouldn't attend, and past a certain hour people wouldn't watch. Makes no sense!

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Sydney's crowds when they were 3 peat champions were an average of 3,000 on Wednesdays

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Michael D  
Years ago

Crowds would obviously suffer, that's a given with midweek games. The venues it would really work in would be inner-city (to attract the after-work crowd) and not too big that a drop in attendance would be a huge blow. Perth Arena, at the Wildcat's current level of popularity, and Margaret Court Arena when it opens next year are good examples.

BUT, crowds would be a secondary concern if you go down this path. It would be about filling a void in the market (I'd imagine there's plenty of people who want to come home from work and watch some live sport) and as a result getting a much, much, much, much better TV deal dollars-wise. Ideally the increased TV dollars would compensate clubs for lesser crowds and then some.

This is the direction the TV networks want the NRL and AFL to go. The NRL have Monday night games every week and have sacrificed crowds to do so. Next year, NFL-style, they'll finish the season with a string of Thursday night games too. The AFL are playing around with Sunday nights on FTA next season and are always experimenting with Mondays and Thursdays.

Besides, with the overwhelming popularity of those two leagues, were the NBL to move to winter it probably wouldn't have a choice. The only way to get attention will be to not go head-to-head with the AFL and NRL.

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Michael D  
Years ago

To give you an idea, the Big Bash crowds aren't anything to really write home about. But when you're capable of drawing 1 million viewers three nights in a row (as they did last weekend), then you'll get a $100 million broadcast deal (as they did this season). That money filters back to the clubs, who can afford more marketing, more resources etc, which itself probably lifts crowds anyway.

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HO  
Years ago

Swagger. Why do you think accessing league pass is such a big deal? Do you have any evidence that league pass buyers don't/won't watch NBL. I know lots of guys that watch NBA, and they also watch NBL. I see it in their social media feeds all the time.

Michael D, as an aside to this, is there any viewer habit stuff available for football fans? I am guessing that the average Mebourne Victory fan also has an EPL club that they watch on Fox.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

They are good points.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know what the tv ratings figures were on FOX last time we had mid week NBL games?

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Swagger  
Years ago

HO only as much evidence as you, heaps and heaps of people I know who lose interest once the NBA starts.

Until a study is done on the effects I guess we have nothing but our first hand stories to back up our points of view.

But when basketball fans are sitting on their ipads at night watching two NBA games, it doesn't leave much attention span for the Taipains at 36ers.

Meanwhile in winter basketball fans are starved.

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THA MONSTA  
Years ago

Get out and watch local leagues during winter

A real basketball fan will watch anything, NBA, NBL, college, seabl, ABA, junior games

People won't attend mid week games, you have kids going to school, let alone you then competing against training's not only basketball but football training as well!!

Clubs need to look at successful clubs like the wildcats and Western Sydney wanderers in the A-league and do what they are doing!

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HO  
Years ago

I didn't attempt to provide evidence, I just gave a contextual reference. You just keep saying the same thing about league pass - I genuinely wanted to know if you had evidence.

Competition sometimes builds interest, rather than detracts from it. Its the old story about fast food outlets being built close to one another, because they create complimentary business. Exclusivity actually hurts their business.

I disagree about the winter basketball fan. They are not starved in winter. They are at the AFL (NRL) or watching it on TV because that is their winter passion. 20 years ago, when the NBL was booming they didn't have a choice to make because the VFL/AFL was, with some Friday exceptions, pretty much a Saturday afternoon competition. Same for the local leagues in Adelaide and Perth. If the NBL went to summer that choice is now a losing choice IMO.

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skull  
Years ago

until the clubs/league are financial enough to market the game properly we wont really know if it will work summer or winter.

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Michael D  
Years ago

HO, no figures but plenty of A-League fans follow EPL teams too. One is played late afternoon/evening, the other is either overnight or catch a replay in the morning. Nothing stopping you following both except for outside commitments.

That could suggest there's more of a clash with the NBL and NBA, given you might catch your NBA replay at night if you were at work or doing something else during the day. This is in fact what I do. Not sure if that's going to make that big an impact though. Surely people can adequately follow both.

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Swagger  
Years ago

HO I'm pumping out these replies while at work so may have mislead you with the intention of my reply.

No I have no evidence, but I don’t believe anyone else has any evidence that can refute my claim either. All of us (basketball fans) in general only have our observations at this point but surely the effect of league pass warrants some discussion, and if the sport had the resources some investigation.
My personal observation, from the circle of work colleagues, friends and family is that league pass has been devastating for the potential NBL audience and is a major factor inhibiting the league’s growth that the powers that be didn’t see coming when moving the NBL to summer in the 90s.

As for the person above who said a 'real’ basketball fan gets out and watches any league, as a coach for last 15 years who has coached at every level from Under 10s div 3 all the way to CABL I can attest to living with that kind of passion. However you are missing the point I feel, the kind of people who go and coach Under 10s in the middle of winter already are watching NBL. We are talking about growing the NBL’s audience by getting in those people who love basketball but may not have had the exposure to the NBL in recent years.

Competing for those people with League Pass is my concern.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

NBL fans are extremely loyal but sadly there are nowhere near enough of them. This is evident when you look at crowd figures and television ratings.

We need more people to be interested but that will take plenty of Advertising and with the NBL on a limited budget, I see nothing changing in the near future.

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koberulz  
Years ago

The NZNBL plays winter. Are the Breakers going to continue to participate, or do as well, if the NBL also plays winter?

What about players who currently play in both the NBL and a state or similar league (SEABL, etc)? What are they going to do in the off-season to get game minutes under their belt, develop, etc.?

Everyone points to Perth as the example to follow. They were in the grand final earlier this year, while round three of the AFL was on. The Wildcats struggled to make the news. They only cracked a mention the night after each game, four or five stories into the sports news. James Hird has been the top story much of the summer. The 'Cats have also played second fiddle to AFL players' Instagram vacation photos.

If the Wildcats, with all the success they've had, can't compete with the AFL off-season, how are any of the other clubs, particularly Melbourne, going to fare?


And that's not even going into Cole's suggestion that we support Kristina "I don't know what you think having an NBA game here will achieve for basketball in this country" Kenneally and BA, who are responsible for the terrible broadcast contracts under which the NBL is suffering, or his suggestion that we institute a minimum salary that is more than what the three regional clubs can afford to spend, or his suggestion that the points cap legislates mediocrity, despite everyone but Sydney and Wollongong being far from mediocre, Wollongong due to budget and Sydney due to stupid import selection, neither due to points.

He's also claimed nobody's ever bought a championship (2007 Bullets say hi) and that no team has ever spent so much that it ruined a league (late-00s Kings, Tigers and Bullets say hi).

He clearly doesn't have a clue about the league, has zero credibility, and Boti Nagy should never have printed that utterly ridiculous article without serious rebuttals to Cole's stupidity.

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Luke  
Years ago

It's all about the product on the floor. If the product is good, then it's a big head start.

Look at how much hype there is this year about Ennis from Perth, a second round draft pick. He is undoubtedly worth watching.

Back in winter, it was common for imports to be second round picks! Darnell Mee, Adonis Jordan, Chris Jent are some good examples. Jent played for Nth Melb fresh of his end of bench championship with the Rockets, when was the last time we ever looked like getting an import close that, or from a final four the previous year, like Jordan and Maccaffrey? We have been getting imports from D2 college and even Canada!
We cannot in summer as we are competing with Europe, and Asia. Winter we are competing with no one!

Playing in winter we would be able to attract more quality imports like theses, ASWELL as our best players that we don't see as they are playing over seas. Ingles, Maric, Newley, Andersen. Imagine a team of
Maric at C
Import at PF
Ingles
Goulding
Import

Just random names. But this type of lineup isnt possible in summer. Next year Goulding will be gone overseas, there goes one of the most entertaining players we have that is an aussie.
Playing in summer we are trying to sell a watered down product to the general public.

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koberulz  
Years ago

Is there any reason at all to actually believe those players would play in Australia if we changed seasons? It's not going to affect any NBA players, for starters, as they'd only be available from the end of June until the end of August.

Also, a lot of the ideas people have about the quality of imports comes from measuring them against the Aussies at the time, who were largely terrible. The quality of the product on the floor is light years ahead of where it was in the NBL boom.

And even if you could attract those players, is it worth the massive hit in attention you'll take due to competing with the AFL/NRL? Or having to have massive mid-season breaks every two years? Hint: no.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Imports like Sam Young and James Ennis are great for the NBL but mean very little if they are not promoted properly.

Something to consider: Perth's average attendance is down 500 on last year WITH Ennis

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koberulz  
Years ago

Crowd numbers as a whole are down, as are TV ratings. Which is bizarre; it's not like there was any promotion any of the last three years that attendance and ratings have grown, so what's changed?

Sadly, next season is likely to be terrible too; it's not until 2015/16 that BA's horrible contracts will end and the NBL will be able to get some decent broadcasting/website deals.

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Michael D  
Years ago

TV ratings are not down.

Reply #450731 | Report this post


koberulz  
Years ago

From what I heard, opening weekend was a massive improvement, but since then they've been below where they were last season. So is it a case of a couple of bigger weekends burying the decreases elsewhere, or have things got better? Or have I just heard wrong?

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Anonymous  
Years ago

"Also, a lot of the ideas people have about the quality of imports comes from measuring them against the Aussies at the time, who were largely terrible. The quality of the product on the floor is light years ahead of where it was in the NBL boom."

1996 Boomers finished 4th at the Olympics.

2000 Boomers again finished 4th at the Olympics with this team: Gaze, Heal, Bradtke, Longley, Grace, Vlahov, Anstey, MacKinnon, Maher, Cattalini, Paul Rogers & Jason Smith.

Just about any player on that team would be league MVP in the NBL now.


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THA MONSTA  
Years ago

Sixers 33 bucks a ticket for 40 minute game

Crows 28 bucks for 80+ minutes

Adelaide United 20 bucks 90 minutes!

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Anonymous: a lot of other countries have got a lot better since 1996, too.

Irrespective of that, the boom was the late eighties/early nineties. 1996 and 2000 are neither.

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GWB  
Years ago

I have watched games from late 80s and early 90s very recently. I really don't think the Aussie talent was terrible! I think the improvement in Aussie content hasn't been as much as people think.

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Ballin Fan  
Years ago

I would much prefer going to games in winter,
I just cannot get to all the games in summer,
too much going on.

Reply #450743 | Report this post


Dr6  
Years ago

Got to give it to Ken Cole - he knows how to get a discussion going. I would assume (and I don't think unrealistically) that the strategy team at NBL would be working through all these changes with a view to strengthening the league. Ken has some good discussion points - without having to had thought through the logistics of it all - just floating the ideas and generating discussion has its value.

Reply #450749 | Report this post


BJF  
Years ago

Really? what has he actually suggested that is in anyway new or innovative? increase the salary cap, go back to 48 minute games, move the season back to Winter is nothing new at all

What would be good is to compact the season into 3 months. There is a sweet spot that the NBL can fit this into post NBA and pre Euro where headline Imports can grab some extra cash.

Teams CAN play 2 - 3 times per week. Ask any NBL player would they rather train all week to play 3 games a fortnight or double the games with half the training?

i bet it would also see an increase in scoring as the scouting efforts would be impacted. No longer would a team be sitting around all week dissecting every nuance of the incoming oppositions offences.

What it also does is increase the level of import that the league can attract. Top level Euroleague imports can be had for 20k per month. NBL teams are forced to spread the salary cap over 6 months.

If the season is dropped to 3 months you can effectively double or quadruple the players pay which brings top line Aussies into the equation. 100k over 3 months is a lot different to the current 100k over 12 months for Aussies.

A guy like Rhys Carter can play in Australia then go supplement his income in Europe without having to decide between the two comps.



Reply #450750 | Report this post


MANAGER  
Years ago

Winter.

Reply #450755 | Report this post


paul  
Years ago

"Also, a lot of the ideas people have about the quality of imports comes from measuring them against the Aussies at the time, who were largely terrible. The quality of the product on the floor is light years ahead of where it was in the NBL boom."

Spot on. Simple fact was there was a very low participation base feeding the NBL during "the boom" meaning there wasnt a depth of talent, not to mention the improvements in junior development since then.

There were still some very good players, but with an average of about 110 Aussies in the league in the late 80s-early 90s there were dozen and dozens of guys who wouldnt get close to an NBL spot now.

The top four at the Olympics comparison is very simplistic given it doesnt take into account the vast majority of players in the NBL. NZ finished 4th at the 2002 WCs and almost their entire team played in the NZNBL, does that mean it was better than the NBL at the time?

Reply #450758 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

If we want something drastic done about the NBL and some real changes then we have to accept the results, or consequences, but I for one think we should at least consider a potential plan and have a go at it.

WINTER - pros and cons, but I have always thought it was the way to go. More positives than negative possibilities IMHO (without going into details).

LEAGUE - Restructure, completely to create two divisions to cater for NBL and SEABL level teams as a Australian/NZ International competition.

PROMOTION - Bring in the juniors, the Associations and the State Leagues all on board during the peak basketball season.

Want real changes, stop the band aid fixes and let's take a plunge, otherwise it is pretty much just a boring argument...

In stead of fearing winter we should embrace it, because this is actually the major basketball season in Australia, but the NBL are not aligned to it!!

Reply #450760 | Report this post


GWB  
Years ago

BJF idea is right. Cut the season shorter.. 3 months with 1 month play offs and multiple games a week for the same money... between Euro/Nba seasons. Lets face it.. we are about 2 months into this NBL season or so.. and many people are already burned out with the same teams playing! it will take a few more teams for that to change!

Reply #450763 | Report this post


wildgoose  
Years ago

I think they need to go back to winter. Having NBA and college on is always going to mean it will struggle for TV viewers.
Just run it July - Oct when NBA is not on. 21 games each team plays the others 3 times then playoffs.

Also you really need a salary cap like A - league where you have a marque player that sits outside of the cap. You need some better players to keep it interesting or you could use the marque spot to get one of those aussies in europe.

Overall you really need a billionaire with money to burn like lowey to get it going. I wish I was a mining billionaire but sadly i'm not.

Reply #450767 | Report this post


2FAST4U  
Years ago

Less games but make each game 48 minutes and 6 fouls. Having so many games only works out when you have more teams, which the NBL currently doesn't have.

Reply #450769 | Report this post


terry u  
Years ago

The nbl died once the CH10 fts coverage disappeared.Kings went live and another mistake was made. Equally perth and the mahic fecided that they needed to become full time players. Wrong again. Winter is a consideration under the nnbl.

Reply #450770 | Report this post


Steven  
Years ago

28 games is too much for an eight team league made worse by the regular season dragging on for over 5 months

Reply #450771 | Report this post


Number 44  
Years ago

During summer people want to be outside enjoying the weather. It's also in the middle of too many Christmas/End of year events and people go on holidays.

During winter if you don't like AFL/NRL there isn't else much on. I goto 1-2 games a year, if it was during Winter and it didn't clash with my AFL team I would probably get a season pass.

Reply #450783 | Report this post


koberulz  
Years ago

Christmas is generally the period the NBL does best, as far as I know.

The idea that the league could run winter without clashing with AFL is ridiculous.

Reply #450793 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

There are pros and cons either side but I think a good approach might be to cover bases with two comps, one more or less in each season. (I've written a lot of this before so it might be a repeat for some people.)

That factor about monthly salaries of imports could be crucial. Let's assume that some elite players (including imports) work to a monthly salary and others could be hired for a year or something like the current season.

Firstly, keep something like the current NBL where it is now, but slightly reduced salary cap, extra teams and third import allowance. Import allowance will make it easier for all teams to stay competitive and under the cap. Slightly reduced salary cap or leave it as is but make it possible for regional teams to stay competitive without overspending if they don't want to. Slightly condensed schedule.

Assume 10 teams or more if there's interest. Have each team play the other 3 times, once home, once away, and once in a regional area perhaps (Tas, Canberra, Darwin, Fremantle, Mt Gambier, etc). That will give 27 games to the current 28, so similar enough for players. A TV deal won't be crucial for this league which will fall back to NBL.TV only if it has to. For this reason, regional teams/games and small crowds at regional locations won't be the end of the world.

Then add a condensed second league in the optimum period to give access to the best talent and, where possible, avoid AFL. Find out from TV suitors (if they exist) what they want - shorter games, longer games, earlier, later, condensed season, etc. Pick the strongest, big-market teams (Perth, Adelaide, NZ, Brisbane, Melbourne, Sydney gives a reasonable league to start with) and with a shorter competition and fewer games, let them chase whatever players they can. These teams might try to get top flight imports for two months, or Joe Ingles or whoever.

Allow clubs with teams in two comps to hire players to play in both (for about the same amount of money, if they can). Allow players to suit for Townsville in one comp and then jump ship to Perth for the other. The idea being that a bench player for the existing NBL probably wouldn't make the cut for the premium league.

Easier access for new teams, more opportunities for players, more basketball across the year, good way to test what works and what doesn't, can make a TV-friendly comp without completely nuking regional teams and the jobs they bring, etc.

Reply #450828 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

I wonder, Isaac, why it is that the best concepts for the game here in Australia are just not being considered by the powers to be??

Is it ego, is it a lack of courage, is it just that we don't have the passion in them that other sports have with their official governance..?

Whatever it is, it is frustrating, is it not...?

Reply #450838 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Isaac,

Why would anyone sponsor the lower level competition teams?

They would slowly lose sponsors and supporters without any TV and elite level competition marketing.

Reply #450841 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

Bear, adding a league would be a major undertaking. Also, probably no one in a position to do it in recent years.

Anon, clubs would fall in two camps - in NBL only (regional sponsors continue as before) or in both leagues (they'd sponsor the club in both comps where pricing was right). Almost no clubs have a national sponsor. Clubs in both could carefully manage the situation with the right pricing. Same with season tickets. Say Adelaide went from 14 home games to 9 in the NBL, they'd have a cheaper ticket. Then a premium ticket for the higher league only or an umbrella ticket for both. A real key would come from clubs getting more saleable games while paying their midrange players the same.

Regional teams could offset reduction in local games by keeping their regional games too. Thinking with fewer games was just to avoid the "Crocs again..." fatigue you get with everyone playing each other four times. Could keep the number of games high in the NBL.

Reply #450843 | Report this post


HO  
Years ago

Bear, what are the "best concepts for the game" that are not being considered?

Reply #450854 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

Well, HO, they of course would be as subjective as any ideas mentioned on a forum like this, wouldn't they?

Especially since there are so many ideas brought forward.

Some may even work, my frustration may be shared by others who would like to see some real changes like the idea of going back to winter, but probably won't.

A short list IMHO would include:

WINTER SEASON
REDUCING COST WITH CONFERENCES
EXPANDING LEAGUE BY ADDING EXISTING POWER TEAMS
SECOND LEAGUE (SEABL) COMPLEMENTING NBL
TEAMS BACKED BY ASSOCIATIONS SUPPORTED BY NBL
PROMOTION NOT IN FEAR OF AFL OR NRL

Just to name a few ideas I believe would be better than the current situation, but like I have indicated before on this forum, just my opinion mate, nothing to be hung and quartered over...

Reply #450860 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

Isaac, I would see the NBL and SEABL working like the AFL and VFL (or other state football leagues), in a complimentary fashion.

One as the major powerhouse league and the other as the feeder league, perhaps backed more by Associations than stand alone clubs.

The concept here would make Winter a truly basketball season, no fear from other codes should be an issue, because basketball will stand on its own I believe...

Summer season would be left for social and domestic competitions (basketball), which is unique compared with footy codes anyway, since they totally rest during the Summer season.

Reply #450861 | Report this post


koberulz  
Years ago

Bear:
Conferences: People are already complaining about the same teams facing each other too much. Adding conferences would be ridiculous. You'd just make the season even more monotonous, at the expense of the Wildcats-Breakers rivalry. Unless you put them in the same conference, which would defeat the purpose.

Expansion: It'll happen in 2015. That's basically a guarantee at this point. No idea what you mean by "existing power teams" though.

Winter: As above, the Wildcats being in the grand final struggled to make the news ahead of the AFL in Perth, which is easily the biggest basketball market in the country. Even during summer, the AFL is frequently higher-ranking news. Winter would be suicide.




Isaac: Surely what you're essentially suggesting is killing the NBL off and replacing it with two things that aren't the NBL?

Reply #450865 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

@koberulz, thanks for your input.

Not really, conferences don't necessarily mean you only play the teams in your conference, I would suggest expanding the NBL and scheduling conferences using common sense would at least be no worse in the 'oh not them again' argument.

Power SEABL teams is what I meant, or at least teams with a sound financial backing at Association level...

Oh, and Winter wouldn't be suicide mate, just your opinion versus mine (and many others), cheers...

Reply #450868 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

A few people have talked about getting back name players or Boomers in the NBL. I'm currently watching my first Big Bash game on TV and I don't recognise a single name so far. Games are on while the best Australians are serving the country in The Ashes. That has to say something?

koberulz, no, I would absolutely not remove the NBL and I think bringing in a league underneath it would be a mistake. It has to be a league above. The longer-running league would be the teams we know now with 40 minute games. Maintain the history, records, etc. Then a new league with a concentration of players and increased chance of name imports or Australians home from Europe. Potentially tweaked rules, 48 minute games, high power, entertaining, etc.

A big-market team would potentially keep their best players and consolidate with a few from regional teams and others. So, take Madgen, Young, Ogilvy from the Kings. Then Clarke, Forman and Davidson come up from Wollongong and Carlos Powell or that Maverick in the D-League, etc. If they aren't called the Kings, they're run by the Kings. Someone like Madgen has one contract for both leagues. Forman has a slightly cheaper Hawks contract plus supplemented by Kings. Josh Howard has a monthly contract for the showy league only.

Reply #450871 | Report this post


koberulz  
Years ago

You might not be removing the NBL in name or lineage, but you seem to be removing the NBL in form, unless I'm misunderstanding.

As far as a winter super-league goes, Boti Nagy came up with this: http://www.botinagy.com/blog/nbl-winter-superleague-why-not/

How does that compare to your idea?

Reply #450874 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

koberulz, what part of the NBL do you think I'm removing? Same teams, more or less same players and rules and fans, same history. Same expansion they're already considering.

One change they could bring to a league is championship bonus points based on scoring. E.g., two extra points for cracking 100.

I'd also put a cash prize on the line for the champions. Either have a sponsor put it up, or have clubs put something in the pot for all to fight for.

Reply #450876 | Report this post


koberulz  
Years ago

Its status as the best league in the country, for starters. Its TV presence. Generally, everything it has that the SEABL doesn't, except its lineage and intellectual property. It'd become a second-tier league nobody would care about.

On the pickier side, Fremantle is to 'regional area' as 'tomato' is to 'suspension bridge'. Bunbury, Mandurah etc. are better WA examples.


Bear: explain how a winter season not being suicide and the above facts about the news coverage of the NBL being significantly below the AFL even under perfect conditions in the best market in the country can coexist? Winter being suicide isn't just my opinion, it's a conclusion based on facts. If there are any facts favourable to a winter season, you've not provided them here. "People want to be outside" isn't valid. The biggest crowd in NBL history? During summer. The longest string of 10k+ attendances by a single team? During summer. The Wildcats and the Big Bash League head to head? Wildcats won. Ashes on at the WACA? It was too hot, everyone went home.

Reply #450883 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

Same clubs would be in both comps, where possible. Think of it as a project of the NBL rather than a separate league. NBLX or similar to make the association clear. Clubs would (should!) make it hugely beneficial for fans to have season tickets of both sides. Could even reuse the name "NBL Blitz" for it.

It would just mean that they get better value for the majority of their players, coaches and admin staff who get paid once for two jobs more or less. And give the NBL a more attractive TV product without sacrificing everything they have now.

The alternative is missing out on short term talent (e.g., 2-3 months of a really premium player) or going a long way to bend what we have with no real back-up strategy.

Reply #450887 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

kobershlagen, there is a big bright world outside of W.A. mate, open yer eyes and you may see it?

Reply #450897 | Report this post


paul  
Years ago

A one-month, capital city BBL-type comp is definitely worth considering if you can get some big names in before international season/NBA Summer League and get a TV deal. With the right promotion it could get a good mid-week niche during winter.

If it was successful with the same clubs involved, and many of the same players, it could be a good promotional tool and money spinner for NBL clubs at a time when both those cupboards are pretty empty.

Reply #450898 | Report this post


Steven  
Years ago

I like Paul's idea and think it could work if the main NBL season was shortened to help fit it in. 6 teams play each other twice 10games. Knockout final 1v4 and 2 v3 then best of 3 final. Could fit in a 6 week window if properly organized.

Reply #450902 | Report this post


Statman  
Years ago

I think it was Bo Hamburger a while back who floated a revised rules comp where the idea was to get to a set score the fastest rather than be leading after a set time - say first to 50, half time when one team hits 25. 4 fouls per player and 1 t/o per team per half. Teams will have to work out their strategy of flat out offence and race to 50 or try and lock the opposition down and get the win

A BBL tournament, about a month long with an intense schedule with double header games a few times a week. Structure it for TV and get in board with Foxtel to promote it, but also make it affordable for a family to get along and have some fun. Games 'should' last about 45-60 mins each making a double header short and sharp and full if action.

Yeah the purists won't like it but its a potential shakeup idea that could reinvigorate things the same way T20 has done for cricket, ie it's more about the spectacle but gets people talking about the sport again

How to afford it - yep there's the sticking point I guess, either Fox underwrites it to get some ratings or we hope to have a benefactor bankroll it initially. Netball did it and the BBL did as well - happy to lose some $ initially with a view to making it back in the long run......could it work? Has sine one got the balls to really go out in a limb and take such a risk? Paid live to see it (and if it works secure the rights to sell the concept to the world and make squillions)

Reply #450908 | Report this post


PeterJohn  
Years ago

paul #450758

"There were still some very good players, but with an average of about 110 Aussies in the league in the late 80s-early 90s there were dozen and dozens of guys who wouldnt get close to an NBL spot now."

I think the point is about the top level Australians in the NBL now as opposed to the NBL in the 1990s. In the 1990s, when you watched the NBL you got to see the best basketball players Australia had to offer and today you don't. I think that's where people are coming from when they say the quality of Australians in the NBL now is lower than it was in the 1990s.

Given there are 30-40 fewer spots for Australian players in the NBL now (there were an average of ~100 NBL players per season between 1990 and 1999, versus ~65 at present), then it's pointless to compare the bottom echelons of Australians in the two eras. Bear in mind we've also added the NZ population to the local talent pool.

In the 1990s, every Boomer except Longley played NBL regularly. e.g., the 2000 Olympic team listed above (Anstey was the only other player in the NBA at the time of selection that year and returned to the NBL in 2001-02 season). Today, not only do almost no Boomers play NBL but I struggle to think of more than 3 who would get into a Boomers' training squad of 18. I could not see any making the team unless first choice players were injured or otherwise unavailable. The best Australian players no longer play NBL. They're in USA colleges, in Europe or in the NBA. The NBL has become a league for the developing Boomers (the ones not in USA colleges) and the Tall Blacks.

Are players in that second tier of better quality than the second tier Australians in the NBL in the 1990s? Probably (I still wouldn't bet the house on it), but the second tier in the 1990s were playing second fiddle on the court and not first fiddle.

Reply #450919 | Report this post


paul  
Years ago

That argument only works if you assume we had as many good players then as now, but it wasnt even close.

I would say from the early 90s Andrew Gaze is the only local in the league who doesnt have someone today of similar ability in their position, even in a 13 or 14-team league as it was at the time.

Reply #450924 | Report this post


Swagger  
Years ago

Paul you are one of the most on the ball posters I've seen on any forum but I reckon PeterJohn has made a great point here.

Very early 90s? Yes you may be right. But mid to late 90s there are plenty of players who do not have a local equivalent running around now. Who in the league touches even a young Sam McKinnon, a young Brett Maher, Shane Heal etc? There's no one close for skill and entertainment value.

I watch a lot of early 90s ball from torrent sites and you are right that the overall level was way down. Some of the players on the end of NBL benches would not sniff the league now. However at the top end of the talent pool the 90s NBL s**ts all over the current NBL.

To be fair to the current NBL, if it was a 14 team league where everyone only played each other twice and not the over-scouted, see everyone every few weeks league it is now maybe some guys here now could actually develop into out and out stars relative to the competition. But also on the other hand if this was the mid 90s, Brad Newley, Joe Ingles, etc would be established stars in the NBL and guys the likes of Anthony Drimic would be in the league as well.

Reply #450929 | Report this post


paul  
Years ago

You'll get no argument from me about the late 90s-early 2000s once the participation boom hit and the number of teams was reduced to 11. That's when I think the league was at its best talent wise both in terms of stars and depth, as shown by it being the lowest scoring period in NBL history.

The discussion I was responding to was about the boom times, late 80s to mid 90s, and there wasnt local talent like there is today, especially when you factor in how many teams it is/was spread amongst.

Have a chat to D-Mac and Joey Wright when theyre next in your town about the level of Aussies when they first got here compared to today, they dont have any doubt about how much it's improved.

Regarding the level of the league, I did a two-part article on it discussing the various factors involved and how it has changed. If youre genuinely interested in the topic have a read:

Mythical NBL Part 1 - http://www.nbl.com.au/article/id/17nrgzma18m901u7yh092vq3w2

Mythical NBL Part 2 - http://www.nbl.com.au/article/id/itnelrqfmu0v14ef8rtfrqzop

Reply #450930 | Report this post


Swagger  
Years ago

No time to read it now but will check them out thanks mate.

I agree with your point, but I think the general point that PeterJohn was making about the league not being attractive now due to us having no real stars anymore also holds true. I know I pine for better talent in the league, (one of the big attractions for winter to me).

Reply #450931 | Report this post


Statman  
Years ago

In the boom times the Boomers players played NBL and were spread throughout the league, today they do not. To Joe Public that says the NBL isn't high quality even though the actual talent playing today may be vastly improved. Hence I see the need to find a way to get our top talent back - even if only for a short time - to get people taking notice again

Reply #450933 | Report this post


paul  
Years ago

I dont think there is a lack of talent at all - Ennis, Young, Goulding, Ogilvy, Redhage, Beal, Wilkinson, Knight, D Johnson, Ervin, Wilson, Clarke, Abercrombie and special guys like Martin and Vukona - they are simply forced to work hard in a high-level competition.

I think you hit it on the head when you talked about a 14-team league today. With less time for scouting all the intricacies of the other teams' offence, and more weak links on the court like there were before the late 90s, I think today's stars would really shine, like they did earlier this year when the game was being called really tightly.

Reply #450935 | Report this post


paul  
Years ago

I agree Statman, there needs to be some sort of basketball event in Australia each year that gets people talking.

While the NBL is definitely growing and the new admin should continue down this path with some astute changes, something different like a winter BBL or even a leg of the NBA Summer League where some NBA summer teams compete against teams from the capital cities with our best players involved is needed to get it back into the mainstream again.

Reply #450936 | Report this post


koberulz  
Years ago

Is there actually any reason to believe Boomers players would play here during winter? Every two years, winter would involve national team work anyway, and the whole purpose of moving season is so they can still play Europe for the money. Why wouldn't they want an off-season every two years, and the lighter amount of work every other year?

It's a massive and completely unfounded assumption.

Reply #450937 | Report this post


Swagger  
Years ago

Of course it's unfounded koberulz, we are all basketball lovers trying to throw up our ideas about the league we love. We don't have the resources to investigate the feasibility of the ideas.

But hopefully someone in power with the resources is looking into ideas like these.

Reply #450938 | Report this post


paul  
Years ago

The international calendar is changing to involve less winter competitions and more in-season. No, Boomers guys wouldnt play in a full winter league, but something that lasted only a month or so might have some interest.

Reply #450939 | Report this post


paul  
Years ago

Further to that, it would open up an avenue towards cooperation with the NBA, which the new admin is seeking, by offering a comp in their off-season.

Reply #450940 | Report this post


skull  
Years ago

how much money was available for players in Europe during the "boom" era in oz?

would we have even seen Gaze and co if the same $ was available??

surely Grace,Fisher,Gaze,Vlahov,Bradke,Copeland etc wouldn't even have played/or limited in the NBL with such money available?

the whole thing needs to be kept in context....it's professional sports...it's about money!

Reply #450941 | Report this post


paul  
Years ago

Possibly, but that has nothing to do with today.

Reply #450942 | Report this post


koberulz  
Years ago

paul: I was just talking about the 'move to winter' notion, not the idea of a second competition.

Reply #450943 | Report this post


paul  
Years ago

Absolutely. No argument from me there.

Reply #450944 | Report this post


skull  
Years ago

maybe I'm a bit off topic here, but it does have relevance to today because of reference to it etc.

the supposed oz bball boom was actually a fluke in time and nothing to do with bball management etc in oz....rather professional sports in the rest of the world.

what we see now is the true landscape of pro sports.

NBL-winter Vs summer ? its not relevant.....if you don't have any money you cant play professional sports !



Reply #450948 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

Not just NBA but China. As a friend was saying today, invite Chinese teams to participate in a Winter fling and they bring their draw card ex-NBA names with them, while paying their salaries. Get a comp going with a couple of name players plus expensive imports and it'd have to be a chance to get some attention.

Reply #450952 | Report this post


paul  
Years ago

I think the ideal landscape could be NBL from late October to late February, Asian league from March to May, and then a BBL-type comp around June-July school holidays.

Reply #450962 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Skull is 100% correct. The NBA on Ch10 was the momentum to bet the NGL pumping. Then the NBL teams of the day, the Perths and Magic's got selfish and greedy and they had the notion that they were NBA players who needed to train 3 times a day. They lost the community focus and failed to support the next generations on kids coming through. Back to the future it seems. Whether it will survive at all remains to be seen. Whilst I would support a change to winter it's far to risky now to go down that path. People are worried about competing against the footy. Bollocks. No one really cares about the NBl anyway.
The Ashes T20 etc are all leaving the NBL behind as we speak. Footy is exactly the same.

Reply #451043 | Report this post




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